Transcript of interview with David Wasserman by Barbara Tabach, October 21, 2016

An Interview with Dr. David R. Wasserman An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ©Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tab ach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes, Amanda Hammar 11 The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first- person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas m Preface For nearly two decades between 1950 and 1970, only one dentist of Jewish ancestry was known to be licensed to practice in Nevada. That was Dr. Joe Chenin. Finally, in 1971, the steadfast and easy mannered Dr. David R. Wasserman (1944 - ) broke through the barrier to become the second Jewish dentist serving the Las Vegas community. Over the following years, Dr. Wasserman built a sizeable following and immersed himself in the Jewish community of Las Vegas. Among his achievements is his participation and leadership in the formation of Las Vegas’ first Reform Jewish synagogue, Congregation Ner Tamid. He also would be active in the Jewish Federation. In 1992, as the HIV-AIDS epidemic affected dental offices throughout the nation, Dr. Wasserman saw an opportunity to get ahead of the infection. With the help of his wife Juanita Davis- Wasserman and his father-in-law Warren Davis, he developed, patented, manufactured and distributed a disposable tip for a treatment instrument commonly found in dental offices called a tri-syringe. This disposable tip brought sanitary options and great financial fortune to Dr. Wasserman and his family. In this oral history, Dr. Wasserman reflects on his joy of living in Las Vegas. He is a highly regarded dentist and leader in the Jewish community. IV Table of Contents Interview with David R. Wasserman October 21, 2016 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Barbara Tabach Preface iv Talks about Russian origins of his father’s (Milton) family; actual surname was Neidich; the family arrived in US in early 1900s. Mother’s side of family (Anne Aronoff) was from Ukraine, her father was a rabbi and his grandmother was a midwife. His mother was born in New Jersey and went to school with Frank Sinatra. His was raised in Essex County, NJ. Joined Air Force during Vietnam War era while earning his dental degree; Air Force stationed him at Nellis Air Force Base; fell in love with Las Vegas, parents moved here as well, father was a pharmacist; in 1974 became active members in the founding of Congregation Ner Tamid [CNT] and speaks of his spiritual connection with Reform Judaism....................................................................1-5 Discusses formation of CNT, Dr. Gene Kirschbaum, Gil Shaw, Renee Diamond, Greenspun family—Hank, Brian, Myra. Talks about taking Nevada Dental Board for licensing in Nevada; the anti-Semitism that existed, Dr. Joe Chenin, Gov. Mike O’Callaghan and State Board of Examiners; James McMillan, first black dentist in Las Vegas............................6-8 Describes the city and being a single Jewish man to Las Vegas in the 1970s. Met and married his wife Juanita in 1984; becoming first dentist in Southern Nevada to receive the fellowship in the Academy of General Dentistry. More about being instrumental in the formation of Congregation Ner Tamid, located on Emerson Street; became president in 1980 during search for rabbi; previous congregation leaders included Michael Cherry and Gene Kirschbaum, Eileen Kollins; Marilyn Glovinsky, Rabbi Sanford Akselrad; Moe Dalitz phone call story.......................9 - 14 Thoughts about growth of Jewish population and congregations in Las Vegas valley; financial needs of congregations and organizations such as Jewish Federation; past leaders such as Bob Unger, Doug Unger; Jewish Family Services; Jewish Community Center; generosity of Sheldon Adelson.............................................................................15 - 18 Talks about start of new business enterprise in 1989 during the H1V-ATDS epidemic; dental office scare; invention of a disposable syringe tip for dental equipment; he and his father-in-law (Warren Davis) built company, Davis Wasserman, and sold in 1997 to Dentsply; how they prototyped the tip, manufacturing costs, distribution from Las Vegas...............................19-24 v His wife’s business with automated cocktail machine and computerization of cocktail serving. Story of meeting Juanita, first date at opening of Fashion Show Mall in 1981; she is former showgirl for Hallelujah Hollywood at MGM; her conversion to Judaism. More about Rabbi Akselrad, mentions Jerry Gordon, Eileen Kollins.....................................25-30 vi Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project UNLV University Libraries Use Agreement Name of Narrator: /?, Name of Interviewer: We, the above named, give to the Oral History Research Center of UNLV, the recorded interview(s) initiated on /& along with typed transcripts as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to the University of Nevada Las Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. I understand that my interview will be made available to researchers and may be quoted from, published, distributed, placed on the Internet or broadcast in any medium that the Oral History Research Center and UNLV Libraries deem appropriate including future forms of electronic and digital media. There will be no compensation for any interviews. Signature of Narrator Date Date Oral History Research Center at UNLV Libraries 4505 S. Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, NV 89154-7010 702.895.2222 Today is October 21st, 2016. This is Barbara Tabach and I am sitting with David Wasserman in his office. David, first spell your last name for us. My last name is Wasserman; it's W-A-S-S-E-R-M-A-N. And you go by Dr. David...Is there an initial or anything there? R. I'd like to know about your family ancestry, the roots of the Wassermans and your mother's side, as well. What can you tell me about that? Well, from what my father told me, his father's name is Aaron and Aaron was one of several brothers, but his father was from a family in Russia originally. The family name was not Wasserman; it was Neidich. Because there was a draft—(they) drafted everyone but the firstborn in the family—his great-great-grandfather worked in the Hall of Records and changed everyone's last name and since his great-grandfather was a riverboat man, it became Wasserman. So that's how the name Wasserman got into my genealogy when actually the family root goes back to Neidich. Interesting. Anyhow, he came to the United States in the early 1900s. My grandmother (his wife) was from Latvia originally, and they met in the New York area. She was a housewife and he worked in the garment district as a buttonhole maker and that's what people did in those days. Sure. On my on my mother's side, her father became a rabbi in the area of the Ukraine near Kiev, and my grandmother (her mother) went to the Royal University in Moscow to get a degree in midwifery. So she became a midwife and was able to deliver children. Anyhow, as years 1 passed, he couldn't find any work being a rabbi, because every Jewish person basically for your education became a rabbi. Then you had to find a real way of making a living. So he worked for a department store chain and got positioned working at a department store branch in Harbin, China; that is where my uncle was bom and that must have been around 1910, 1912. When the revolution broke out, they immigrated to the United States. Where exactly they landed, I don't know. My mother was born in Toms River, New Jersey. I know as a child growing up, my grandfather had a pharmacy in Hoboken, New Jersey. My mother actually went to high school with Frank Sinatra. Oh, really? Yes. She was two years ahead of Frank, but remembered the Fridays when he'd sing in the auditorium. Oh, wow. So that's the genealogy as far back as I can go. My mother's maiden name was Aronofif. I actually found out that I still have another relative in the Aronoff name that I have never seen. [This relative] went to the Air Force Academy and after he graduated he flew missions over Vietnam. Then after a hundred missions they wanted to give him a desk job and he said, "No, that's not for me." So he did another hundred missions and then they said, "That's it; you can't do it anymore." So he resigned from the Air Force and went to teach the Israelis how to fly the new Phantom jets in 1967. He married an Israeli dentist and lived over there. Now, I understand he's living in Florida somewhere and he must be in his late seventies. I've checked on his phone number. I'm anxious to make contact with him. 2 Oh, that would be a fascinating contact, wouldn't it? Especially since I was in the Air Force and that's what got me to Las Vegas. Oh, and the dentistry and all of that. But he was a fighter pilot. I know, but still. I did some dentistry, yes. But you have so much in common. That would be interesting. Wow. It sounds like a whole other interview of you to get the family story there. So how did the family end up in Las Vegas? What year did that all happen? There was a war going on while I was in college; it was called the Vietnam War. In 1966,1 graduated and I had applied to dental school. They allowed you four years of deferment for college, but to go on and get more deferment for professional education, you had to get special permission. The way they did that is by coercing you into signing up in what they called the Early Commissioning Program. You signed up your freshman year of dental school and upon graduating you had to do two years of active duty service for the military. So the Air Force stationed me, out of all places in the middle of a war in Vietnam, in Las Vegas, for which I am ever thankful. That's how I got here. I got here in 1970, the year after I graduated dental school. I did my two years of active duty at Nellis Air Force Base. Started my private practice in October of '72. My parents were looking to get out of New Jersey. At the time, I had a brother living in Florida and I was living here. My younger brother was still in professional school. My father spent a July day when it was a hundred and seventeen degrees and he loved it out here. As dry as it was, he said, "I can handled this." So they decided to move to Las Vegas. 3 What part of town did you all live in at first? My parents lived in Sierra Vista Ranchos on Eastern Avenue near Emerson Place, which is near where the first temple was built. Congregation Ner Tamid. Ner Tamid, yes, before we moved in 2005 to Valle Verde. My father was active in the temple and he really got involved. Those people who are still around from then remember him, including the rabbi. Interesting. So did your dad work when he came here or was he retired? Well, he got a pharmacy license. He was able to get it through reciprocity. He worked as a relief pharmacist. The pharmacy usually stays open seven days a week. So he'd give a day or two for someone to take off and he'd cover the pharmacy in the drugstore whether it be a big chain or a small individual-manned store. He himself had a problem, when he had his own one-man drugstore in Newark, New Jersey, of finding a relief man to cover and give him time off. So he knew the need for such a position; it would easily be filled. And your mom, did she work? My mom did teaching, but she didn't do any teaching when she moved out to Las Vegas. Basically she was a substitute teacher. She didn't do it on a full-time basis. Did you purposefully move to be close to the temple or was that just by coincidence? That was just coincidence. The land became available over there and that's why it became the first location for it. But we were wandering. I was one of the original founders of the temple back in 1974. We [the congregation] wandered from the various churches and it was not a problem. We were a congregation that had a nucleus of people who would follow it because 4 that's the kind of Judaism we wished to express. I was raised in a reform temple in New Jersey. I always found that when the Torah portion was read in the reform temple, it was read and translated simultaneously by the rabbi. So he'd read two lines, then he'd translate two lines. He made the Torah very pertinent to our life and the meaning because we were getting the translation along with it. I find that in the conservative movement, they just read it in Hebrew and I see that most of the people in the congregation are just chatting with one another or they take time and take a break and walk out and they come back after the Torah service. In my opinion, if the Torah is pertinent to today's life, it should be understood and should be imparted to the congregation. So was your connection through your whole growing up, and in the service and all—was your connection with your religion strong? How would you describe it? I never thought it was strong. I just knew what I wanted. When I was disappointed and saw what was lacking, I said, "There's got to be something different available." I said, "The population"—the Jewish population especially of Las Vegas at that time—"was large enough that it should have more than one congregation." At that time I got involved with the Jewish Federation and I met with the likes of Hank Greenspun and Jerry Mack and they were interested to see a young person get involved in the Jewish community on his own because no one coerced me. I gave a nice contribution to the Federation; that was the Yom Kippur War time, 1973. I met the director of the Federation at that time. He was very young. In fact, he was basically my own age, which was about thirty at the time. Now, who was the director then? I can't remember his name. 5 Harold was his first name. I can't think of his last name. Anyhow, he said, "There's someone else who is interested in a reform congregation." His name was Dr. Gene Kirschbaum, who was a veterinarian here in town. So we hooked up for a brunch at Caesars Palace on a Sunday morning and we decided to kick things off and see what we could get going. Then we put some fliers out and we advertised in the newspaper and we had a meeting at his house. He and his wife were very important in the early phases of getting the congregation started. That's when at that meeting people like Gil Shaw and Renee Diamond were there. They were part of that early group. That was a good panel discussion about the history of Congregation Ner Tamid. I learned a lot... Let's just concentrate on the formation of the congregation. Jerry Mack and Hank Greenspun are two names you mentioned. Those are names that are really embedded in the history of Jews in Southern Nevada. What do you remember about those two men individually? What kind of characters were they? Well, in my mind I had them on a pedestal because—you're right—they're names that evoke a reverence. I didn't get to know Jerry Mack as well, but I did get to know Hank Greenspun and I met Brian, his son. In fact, Brian and Myra became patients of mine and are still patients of mine. They've been patients of mine now for about forty-two years. Wow. I found out the story from Brian about his father and how involved he was in the early founding of Israel and when it got its independence, how he was able to provide arms. In fact, in a recent column in the Las Vegas Sun, when he went to the funeral of Shimon Peres, he talked about the tie between Shimon Peres and his father. He was the last of the dying breed of people who were the founders of Israel. So I knew what kind of person I was dealing with. 6 I've got to relate another story to you. When I was stationed at Nellis Air Force Base, I decided I was going to take the Nevada Dental Board. People who were career petty officers in the military, like master sergeants and of that nature, who've been there at Nellis Air Force Base for six to eight years said, "You know, Doc, don't get your hopes up of getting a license here." He says, "We've had eight Jewish dentists come through here in the last five years and not one of them has gotten a license." So I said, "You're kidding." He says, "No." He says, "It's very, very closed license." So the Anti-Defamation League through B'nai B'rith did a study and found out that in the last eight years, like sixty-five Jewish dentists had taken the board exam and not one had passed. Sixty-five? Yes. There was only one Jewish dentist in the state of Nevada at that time; his name was Joe Chenin. Joe and I became friendly because we were in the same dental fraternity. Joe said to me he thinks the only reason he got licensed [in early 1950s] is because they didn't know he was Jewish. His name wasn't a Bernstein or Stein. Anyhow, his last name really was Chechinski, but he shortened it to Chenin. So it didn't reveal an ethnicity that would raise any red flags. The boards in those days were all well-controlled by those of Mormon faith. They knew there was a big Jewish population here, but they wanted the members of their church to receive—they know that Jewish people go for active medical and dental care and they wanted their people to go to their practices. It wasn't anti-Semitism on an anti-Jewish basis. It was more like an economic basis. This was almost verified to me because when I first started working in a dental office it was for a Mormon dentist. Really? Yes. He kind of corroborated my thoughts on the subject. But I had no problem after that. Oh, 7 so when I didn't pass the board the first time, I was really kind of upset because I thought I did a good performance. I spoke to Joe Chenin and Joe had them look at the patients that I had done the procedures on and he was suspicious, too. He says, "There's nothing wrong with that. It really should have passed." So he got in touch with Hank Greenspun. At that time, there was going to be a change in the governorship for the state and Mike O'Callaghan was running for office. When he became governor, he told the State Board of Examiners, "Either you clean up your act and stop your discriminating or I'll give out dental licenses myself." That was that. In fact, he appointed James McMillan, the first black dentist in Nevada to the Board of Examiners, he appointed Joe Chenin to the board of examiners, and the first woman, Fay Alstrom to the board of examiners, trying to set the record straight. But nothing would have happened if I hadn't made waves. You rocked the boat there, didn't you? Yes. And it made me feel good, because back East you live in such a closed world; you think that being Jewish was no big deal because everyone was accepting. It's not that way—or it wasn't that way and it still may not be that way; you never know. But the whole thing was until you're confronted with a situation, you don't know when it's being used against you. Did you ever feel that way when you were in the service? Was there anti-Semitism? No, not in the military. I never felt that. Where did you study your dentistry? I went to Tufts Dental School in Boston and I graduated Rutgers undergrad, which is a state college in New Jersey. So everything from your experience was in the east coast Jewish communities. Right. I always liked the Southwest. My dream was when I'd go to a travel agency and I'd see a 8 silhouette of people on horseback riding into the sunset with the saguaro cactus in the background, I'd say, "I'd like to live in a place like that someday." Being that I was single and I said I was available for overseas duty, I thought I'd get somewhere in Southeast Asia. I got Las Vegas, Nevada, and that was just like unbelievable. Lucky. Yes, yes, especially at that time. What was Las Vegas like when you first arrived [in 1970]? Well, when I first arrived there were a lot of streets with lights on them, but there was nothing on the streets; they were just streets with lights. I came over the valley from the Boulder crossing, I drove from Lubbock, Texas to Albuquerque, from Albuquerque to Las Vegas, a two-day drive. The sun was going down and I said, "Wow, this is really an expansive area." Sure enough, the population of all of Southern Nevada, all of Clark County was only two hundred and fifty thousand and that included North Las Vegas, Las Vegas, Henderson and Boulder. Now it's ten times that. So to see it grow is just an unbelievable thing. Every time I'd leave town for two weeks at a time going on vacation or something, I'd come back to find out, what did they build next? While I was gone. Were you married at that time when you first moved here? No, I was single. I stayed single until 1984. So what was single life for Jewish people in Vegas during that era? It was a bit difficult. I didn't let religion guide me to who I would date. I dated people for what they were, as people. My first and only wife, her name is Juanita and the name is not revealing as to her appearance. She's not a five-four, dark hair, dark eyes. She's a five-ten and she was a showgirl, blond hair. So we met in 1979 and she took a job on a show in Madrid, Spain. I missed her and went over there and asked her to come back and live with me and she wouldn't have to work anymore. We lived together for a couple of years and I said, "I want you to marry 9 me. I don't want you as my girlfriend anymore; I want you to be my wife." And we got married (in 1984). Do you have children? No. We decided not to have children. Most of our friends had teenagers and the observation was at the age of sixty I couldn't live through it. Okay. [Laughing] I can understand that. What you could handle before, you can't handle at sixty. Raising children is for the young. No argument about that. So what were the things that you would do for entertainment when you were young—younger, here? I'd do some traveling. I was very interested in my profession and I went to a lot of CE (Continuing Education) programs, especially if they were in cities that were a distance away where I could see a new city and take a course that was of interest to me. In fact, I was the first dentist in Southern Nevada to receive the fellowship in the Academy of General Dentistry, which means you've completed five hundred credit hours of continuing education beyond your degree from college. You get a fellowship for that. I didn't realize it, but I was the first one in Southern Nevada to have that. That's quite the honor. What other things have you been honored with? Well, when I was in college, I was president of my class my junior year and president of the school my senior year. So you were accustomed to being a leader. I was sociable. What did your parents think about you being part of the organization of a new congregation? 10 Oh, they totally loved the idea. They just couldn't believe their son who was single would get involved with a congregation. Most other people couldn't, either. But I really felt strongly about the need for a reform congregation and was willing to commit my time to make it work. Gene Kirschbaum was the first president of the congregation; I was the vice president, but I wasn't ready to take on the presidency until about eight years later. My experience with the temple itself was quite a revelation. When I was elected to be president in 1980, we had a rabbi search committee—because we were changing rabbis. When the past president, which is Michael Cherry, left office, we still didn't have a new rabbi. So I became the president without a rabbi and had to really scrape to find a rabbi because a lot of them had already committed to their congregations for the following year. It wasn't a normal time; January is when you start. Well, I started in May. So a lot of the prime candidates had already been taken. So we came up with a candidate and I interviewed him and the congregation interviewed him and we came to an agreement and he came to town. He seemed to be very personable and we were very happy with him. I'm not going to mention names because the person is still in town now. But there were certain things that he wasn't doing that he should have been doing and it created a problem for the congregation. My successor decided not to renew his contract, and so they hired a different rabbi in 1986. He came to town and his wife didn't like the town and they wanted out. So he left in 1987 and we were without a rabbi until Rabbi [Sanford] Akselrad came along. So for two and a half years, congregants served as rabbi or ran the services. Eileen Kollins, who is one of our past presidents, she was the major contributor in helping run the services during that time. We had the facility on Emerson Place and it was very tough to 11 maintain. That's why I came up with the idea of the candelabra for the Yahrzeit light. What I did is I got Palm Mortuary to dedicate the candelabra and then I sold the eight candles on it to different families. We raised money from the sale of the candles plus there were plaques that went on it, and that's how we kept alive during that time because we were down to about ninety family congregants and we had a facility and it's very, very hard. Most of the work was volunteer, the school and the teachers and things like that. But in order to pay off the (former) rabbi's contract and to be in good stead to apply for another rabbi, we had to get our finances in order. It sounds like things just happen. They don't just happen. No. It was a tough time. As president or a leader, are you taking this worry personally? How does this affect your life? It takes away from your outside endeavors. Thank God I didn't have kids at the time; otherwise, it really would have been a challenge. When I was president from '80 to '82, that was the first time. Then what happened is my wife and I had taken a vacation to Greece and when we came back my mother was dying of cancer. When we came back she had only one more week left. That's when the secretary-treasurer of the congregation told me that the vice president had already resigned and now the president resigned. They asked me to come back and be president, which was really stressful, but I wouldn't say no. It meant enough to me to say, "If everyone works with me and does their job, I'll take over at the head command so I can at least give a semblance that everything is still together." How do you recruit the next president? What's the strategy to all that? Working on the board at different levels and taking an officer position of a lesser level than 12 president. You try to groom them for the job, let them know what's involved. Usually a vice president or a secretary-treasurer will qualify because they understand the everyday workings of it. But that's all volunteer time that you put in. You have a beautiful result now. Yes, we do. It was during that time that Bob Unger and Jerry Gordon came to the forefront and started to do some fundraising in trying to get us on our feet. As far as working and developing programs to involve people of all ages, how would you describe what has happened in Ner Tamid over the years in those areas? That actually is beyond my scope. I was more confronted with survival. At the first level, when I was president from '80 to '82, it was not having a rabbi until finally getting one and then letting him get the feel of the earth, so to speak, and learn the community. Marilyn Glovinsky, who was on the board, she was the secretary-treasurer for a number of years. She was very helpful in working on the children's programs because she herself had children who were of the age where they needed the guidance through those kinds of the programs that would be provided by the temple and she worked with the UAHC, which is the national organization, to get information and programs sent that she could emulate and set up for ourselves. I did interview her and that was nice. And then you mentioned another name that I’ve heard, Eileen Kollins. Tell me about her. What kind of person is she or was she? Oh, she's a go-to, get-done girl. She's an amazing person. I was very, very proud of her. She had no personality quirks that people could have a problem with. She wasn't pushy. She was amicable. She would make sure that things got done even if she had to do them herself. But she caused people to respond in positive ways to get things done that needed to be done. 13 There's been a lot of women in leadership at this particular congregation compared to others, it seems like. Well, the reform movements generally bring that about. One of the things that actually helped us was the Congregation Beth Sholom. They were very happy to see us become a congregation. They didn't look at us as competitors. They looked at us as being able to take a tremendous burden off their back because they had congregants of mixed marriages and they have a problem with that over there. Reform Judaism doesn't look at it that way. My wife Juanita converted. Conversion is very acceptable in Reform Judaism. It's funny, one of the stories we talked about—Moe Dalitz and how he got involved with the congregation. Well, everything you heard and was said at that meeting [CNT panel discussion of September 21, 2016] was true. There was only one pre-step before then. I was in my dental office, which was this office, and my receptionist says, "There's a Moe Dalitz on the phone for you." I knew I hadn't done anything wrong. So I know it couldn't have been too bad. So I took the phone call and he wanted to know if I could do him a favor. I said, "Let's hear the question." He said, "Well, a friend of mine wants to get married and he's marrying a non-Jewish girl and the rabbi at Beth Sholom won't do their wedding. Will your rabbi do the wedding?" I said, "Let me call and find out and I'll get back to you." And I did and it worked out. By him doing that wedding, he put us in good stead with him for a big contribution for our original building. That's how it came about. All the other things you heard were true. It's just that this was like the tip of the iceberg that opened the door for everything else to hold true. And the Jewish community since then has grown by leaps and bounds, the number of congregations—how do you explain that to people? 14 Some people just aren't satisfied with the status quo. It's usually funny. They say you have ten Jews; you can have five congregations. I can understand the need for orthodoxy. Then after the town grew so much, you had a problem with geography. You have two Jewish centers: you have the Henderson-Green Valley area and you have the Summerlin area. Geographically, as