Transcript of interview with Dr. Leonard and Carol Raizen by Claytee D. White, April 8, 2009

An Interview with Dr. Leonard and Carol Raizin An Oral History Conducted by Claytee D. White The Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ©The Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2012 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Editors: Barbara Tabach, Melissa Robinson Transcribers: Kristin Hicks Interviewers and Project Assistants: Barbara Tabach and Claytee D. White ii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of Dr. Harold Boyer. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank the university for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project. Claytee D. White, Project Director Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University Nevada, Las Vegas iii Table of Contents Interview with Dr. Leonard and Carol Raizin April 8th, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Claytee D. White Preface v Toronto, Canada; Windsor, Ontario, Canada; Leonard Raizins' father was a cattle dealer; University of Toronto - six year medical school program; Detroit, Michigan; Sinai Hospital of Detroit opened in 1953; moved to Las Vegas in 1961; Rancho Vista; Las Vegas Day School- Helen Daseler 1 - 8 Southern Nevada Memorial Hospital; University Medical Center; Sunrise; Anesthesiologist; Test Site; accidents from test site workers, highway called " The Widow Maker"; William Kemp; St. Rose de Lima in Henderson; table shock, dehydration; gaming industry helped finance Sunrise Hospital 9 - 15 Pawnshop; Manpower beeper system; Sultan's Table at the Dunes Hotel; Leo Durocher; Frank Sinatra; Harry James and Betty Grable; Desert Inn Golf Course; Desert Inn; Moe Dalitz; Antonio Morelli; Charles West; Prostitution earning 3,000 a day during the 60's; nurses moving to Las Vegas ultimately switching jobs to cocktail waitress because of higher earnings; Bugsy Siegel; Medical Society; Loma Linda; first open heart surgery done in Las Vegas; Howard Hughes' chief of security 16 - 33 Index 34 iv Preface Leonard Raizin was born in Windsor, Ontario, Canada in 1930. His father was a cattle dealer. At an early age Raizin knew he wanted to be a doctor and after attending medical school he married his wife Carol Raizin born in Toronto, Canada. Leonard Raizin attended the University of Toronto for medical school in 1948. He met his wife Carol on a blind date. He started his internship at Sinai Hospital of Detroit in 1954. After a trip to Arizona and a feel of the desert weather the Raizins' with their four young daughters moved to Las Vegas, NV in 1961. When arriving in Las Vegas Dr. Raizin practiced at Southern Nevada Memorial Hospital (currently University Medical Center) and also at Sunrise as an anesthesiologist. There was a time while practicing in Las Vegas Dr. Raizin was the only anesthesiologist in the area, and experienced for the first 6 months of life in Las Vegas an extremely immersed schedule that never allowed him an entire night at home. Carol Raizin graduated as one of the first students at UNLV with a degree in Psychology in 1973. Carol eventually worked alongside her husband in their office handling bookkeeping for eight anesthesiologists. Dr. Leonard Raizin and Carol Raizin after a very successful life in Las Vegas are now retired. They still have a home in the Las Vegas area, however they spend their winters skiing in Park City, Utah and their summers fishing in Idaho. v ORAL HISTORY RESEARCH CENTER AT UNLV Heart to Heart: A History of Las Vegas Health Care Oral History Project Use Agreement Name of Narrator: C A /2-c i z /AJ Name of Interviewer: C-LA, y T £ (* txJh)lT£ We, tlie above named, give to the Oral History Research Center of UNLV, die recorded intcrview(s) initiated on +//C*j as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to die University of Nevada Uis Vegas, legal tide and all literary property rights including copyright. This gill docs not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of IINLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. There will he no compensation for anv interviews. Library Special Collections 4505 Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, Nevada 89154-7070 (702) 895-2222 ORAL HISTORY RESEARCH CENTER AT UNLV Heart to Heart: A History of Las Vegas Health Care Oral History Project Name of Narrator: Name of Interviewer: Use Agreement ('Mjree D, /A^ We, the above named, givtftc/ tlit OralHistory Research Center of UNLV, the recorded interview(s) initiated on j-W jc2 00T as an unrestricted gift, to be used lor such scholarly and educational [jjlirrtrscs as shall be determined, and transfer to the University of Nevada I .as Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude die right of die interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use die recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. There will be no compensation for any interviews. Library Special Collections 4505 Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, Nevada 89154-7070 (702) 895-2222 vii This is Claytee White. It is April 8th, 2009. And I'm in the home of Carol and Leonard - - Raizin. Would you spell your last name for me? R-A-I-Z-I-N. So how are you today? How are the two of you? Great. Thank you. Thank you. Wonderful. I'm going to start with Carol. I'm going to ask the same question to both of you. I want to know about your childhood, where you grew up and what influenced you in your life. I grew up in Toronto, Canada. And it was an interesting place to live. It's always been somewhat multiethnic, but is more so today. But for the most part it was a very what we call WASP city. And I never really felt tremendously loyal to it or that it was my place, particularly. And most of us growing up at that time were happy to leave. We were anxious to leave. So it was not difficult when the time came. How many people in your family? How many children? I have a sister, a younger sister. Just the two of us and my mother and father, of course. What did they do for a living? My mother was a homemaker. And my father was a businessman, not always successful, but he kept plugging away at it. And did your sister leave Toronto as well? She did, but she ended up coming back. And she lives there now. So, Leonard, tell me about your childhood, where you grew up. And what influenced you to go to medical school? I was born and raised in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. I can't really tell you what influenced me to go to medical school. But at a very early age I decided that I wanted to be a doctor. My father, who was a cattle dealer - - I went with him frequently and went to the slaughterhouse. And it never bothered me to see the insides of the animals or anything else. And I was fascinated by it. But it was a fascination. It wasn't a desire to cure the animals or anything. So I was never put off 1 by blood and guts. When the time came I applied to medical school and there I was. Are you an only child? No. I have two sisters, older. One is six years older and one is eight years older. My oldest sister lived in Windsor, Ontario for a long time, and then she and her husband moved and still live in Tucson, Arizona. My other sister, who is younger, lived in Detroit, Michigan after she got married and stayed there for a long time and moved to Las Vegas about 30 years ago. Tell me what the life of a cattle dealer is like. My father was up and out of the house before dawn. I never saw him in the morning. And when he would come home, frequently it was after dark. My father was a very religious man. And so on Saturday, which was the Sabbath, he was home after he went to religious services. And I saw him on Saturdays. And Sundays frequently he would go out to buy and sell cattle as well. But I did see him on Sundays, too. But frequently I would not see him during the week for three or four days at a time, although he came home every night, but it was after I was asleep. And remember that I was bom in 1930 so it was Depression years. And so he had to work very, very hard to make a living, but was never on welfare or we really never wanted for food. And if we did I was not aware of it. Did you eat a lot of beef? We did. I couldn't resist. Tell me about medical school. Well, the University of Toronto has a six-year program after high school. Canadian school goes for 13 grades. And the reason for that was that it gave you a year of college that you didn't have to pay for. It was public education. And from that grade 13 they could determine if you were college material or if you wanted to go to college, which I think was a very good thing. Then the University of Toronto at the time would accept you after grade 13 into their medical school. And they accepted in those days 150 students. Two years of it was premed with information always related to medicine; and archaeology relating to bones and medicine and so on. It was a very, very good course. And they crammed in three years of college into two. Your third year of school at the University of Toronto is when you started into the medical courses - - 2 anatomy, histology and the usual medical courses. It was a very good system because after they took in their 150 students they were very, very interested in seeing to it that they all graduated. Unlike the American system and some of the Canadian schools, they would take in a thousand students into premed knowing that only 100 would get into medical school. It was a dog-eat-dog situation whereas ours was very, very friendly. Everybody helped everybody else with every subject. And it was very, very friendly. My friends from medical school, we're still very, very companionable. How did the two of you meet? A common friend introduced me to my wife and told me that she had met her at summer camp and she thought we would get along just fine. And I called her. We went out on a blind date. We hated each other. You could just say disliked. But a year later we decided, well, we'd try it again. And I was older and she was older and we got along much better and eventually got married. And is this a true story, Carol? Well, so far. Okay. I love it. Tell me about the student composition at the medical school. There were quotas at the time. That was 1948 when I applied to medical school. There were quotas at the University of Toronto Medical School. Ten percent of the class was female every year. Ten percent of the class was Jewish every year. And the rest was made up of the people who were in the community and in Ontario. It is a provincial or a state-run school. And it was a very, very good medical school. And I didn't know how good it was truly until after I graduated and found out how much I had learned compared to my American counterparts. So tell me about your internship. Almost all of the people I knew at the university took internships outside of Canada. And we drove around, looked all over. And I went to a then brand-new hospital opening up in Detroit, Michigan called Sinai Hospital of Detroit. Opened up in 1953. And I was there in 1954 as a 3 rotating intern. And I chose Detroit partly because I was from Windsor, Ontario and it's just across the Detroit River. It was close to family, but not right within the same city. And as a new hospital they were very anxious to get interns and offered us a very fine salary of $225 a month. And that was the decision. And I had decided to get married, although I wasn't married when I graduated. We married September after I graduated in July. And so the money was important, although it wasn't enough to live on. But we got financial help mostly from Carol's family. And we survived and had a wonderful time. Wonderful. Carol, tell me about life for you while he was doing the internship and once you had gotten married. Well, I was still going to school then. I was in nursing school. I started in Toronto and continued in Detroit. And about halfway through I decided this was not for me and did not graduate in nursing. We rarely saw each other because he was on call so much of the time and stayed in the hospital. So did you change your major to something else? I did change my major. I did not keep going to school when we were in Detroit after the first year. We started on a family and I had small children. And I didn't go back to school until we moved to Las Vegas. Ah, interesting. I like that. I didn't finish school until I moved to Las Vegas either. As an aside for Carol, when we moved here the entire courses given at UNLV was mimeographed on one sheet of paper. Three buildings. That's right. When did you move here, which year? 1961. Oh, yes. That was early. The school only started - - yes. You were one of the first students. So tell me about what caused you to move to Las Vegas. It was serendipity. We lived in Detroit. We hated the climate and always said that someday we would move out west. As a resident I got hepatitis. And after I recovered they told me I should 4 take a couple of extra weeks off and get some rest. And we came out west. Actually, it was to Arizona. And I fell in love with the desert. I thought this is where I should have been bom. And at that time we both said someday we're going to move to a desert climate. In April of 1961 we came to Las Vegas to a medical convention. And it was a day like today. The sun was shining. The temperature was about 70 degrees. It was glorious. And we hated to leave. We had been here for about three or four days. Got on the airplane. Had to change planes in Chicago. Halfway there the pilot announced that the plane could not land in Chicago due to a snowstorm, and we diverted to Kansas City. It was a Sunday. In Kansas City we managed to get on an overnight train back to Chicago. Of course, because no planes were getting in, there were no planes getting out on Monday morning. But we eventually got back to Detroit a day late. And everyone at the hospital in Detroit was angry because I had missed surgery on Monday morning. And I decided, you know, it's not my fault and there's no reason for us to live here where the climate is so bad when it's so nice in the desert. And I made some phone calls and got my medical license that same May or June. I came to Carson City and met with the Board of Medical Lxaminers, got a license. And by the end of June I had arrived in Las Vegas to practice my profession. And were you as happy about that as he? Oh, I was perfectly comfortable with it. I've always been somewhat of an adventurer and a gypsy. So it was okay with me. Both of you started by saying you wanted to leave Canada. Could you explain that more? Well, for me there was really very little opportunity in Canada at that time. After I graduated from the University of Toronto, I knew that I could not get an internship within the University of Toronto Medical School system because they would never hire a Jew to be an intern or a resident. So it was understood that all of the Jewish medical school graduates would go someplace else for further education. And almost all of them came to the United States. Many of them came back to Toronto where they could open up a practice. But they would not have hospital privileges in those days except at the Jewish hospital, Mount Sinai, which, of course, was started in those days because the Jewish doctors had no place to work to take their patients. 5 That has all changed to the point where at one time fairly recently the chairman of the department of surgery, obstetrics and gynecology and the dean of the medical school were all Jewish. And they were picked not because of their religion but because of their abilities. So things have changed. Definitely. You know I can say that. Yes. What was Las Vegas like for you when you first moved here? Tell me those first memories, not so much in April, but in June when you came. But it takes all of this to make us. So a wonderful story. I don't know exactly how we got off. Oh, the last question I asked was if you would tell me about early Las Vegas. 1961, arriving here some of your first memories, not so much April when you came for the convention but when you actually moved here. Well, Leonard came in - - July? End of June. At the end of June. Right. And the children and I stayed in Detroit. We did not move here until August, which was quite an introduction to Las Vegas. A little warm. And Leonard had driven down himself and then he flew back. And, of course, all his colleagues here at that time thought he had been here for the requisite six weeks and that he had left. And they were very surprised when he showed up again. What do you mean requisite six weeks? Oh, to get a divorce. Yes. They thought that I was here for the six weeks. Although I said I had a wife, nobody ever saw her. And it is true that I was here and working for about six weeks when I went back and brought the family. And they didn't think I was coming back. They were very, very surprised to see him. But we moved in - - four little girls and a huge Doberman and a nanny who came with us, a young girl from our neighborhood back there who came with us. I fell in love with Las Vegas right from the beginning. I loved the weather. It was at that 6 time j small lawn h was a population of a hundred thousand people You kneweverybody And you couldn't go somewhere, supermarket or whereser. without running into people that you knew And the interesting thing was that nobody had family here, only their own immediate family. So you developed lasting friendships and we w ere family for each other It was a whole different ethic As I say I loved Las I'egos right from the beginning I never missed my family a bit. Whert did you live when you find arrived? Our first house was in Rancho Vista, which is just - - well, it's about - - it's just south of Bonanza and east of Rancho It's a development that's still there We had a nice little house and lived there for quite a number of years Where did your girls go to school? They went to what was at that time West C 'harleston. It's now Howard Wasden / think. And after that they went to C 'lark They went to Hyde Park Junior High and then Clark And they all graduated from Clark They went to the I .as Vegas Day School for a w hile, some of them. Oh. that's true. That's true In fact, they all went to the IMS Vegas Day School. Did they all for a while? / think so. Yeah. Yeah. That's a fabulous school. I interv iewed the mother of the founder. Oh. Helen Daseler. yes. a lovely woman She's been a long -lime friend. Oh, wonderful. Okay, yes. What was it like - - it sounds as if a lot of doctors came here to get divorces. Oh yeah. Yes. Tell me what it was like being a young doctor in this town in 1961. What were your colleagues like, social life, every thing? Well, when I came here there were two doctors who wore practicing anesthesia. Neither one of them had been fully trained in anesthesia. The older man had had some experience in the military. The younger man had had one year of anesthesia residency. And I presume for economic reasons he left that residency and came to go into general practice in I .as Vegas, but found that they 7 needed anesthesia. So he was practicing anesthesia to the best of his ability. He was involved in a lawsuit relative to an anesthetic he had given. And when I arrived with the idea that he and I would be practicing side by side, he was very happy to see me come and said I'm leaving. And two weeks after I arrived he left and went back into general practice someplace in one of the northern tier states. I don't know exactly where he went. But he was very nice and encouraged me to come, but felt that he did not have the support of the other doctors in this community. So he left. And I was there all by myself. Where were you practicing? Mostly when I first came it was at Southern Nevada Memorial Hospital, which is now University Medical Center. And also Sunrise had been open for a little over a year. The neurosurgeon who was here at the time, an Australian, was very anxious for me to practice at Sunrise as well. And he brought me an application for staff privileges and said don't you mail it because I want to hand deliver this because if you mail it they will throw it away; they don't want you here. And you have to explain that. Well, the anesthesia that was given there was being given by nurse anesthetists. And they had very, very good rapport with the nurses in the operating room. And they didn't want to see an anesthesiologist come in and change the situation. When I came in 1961,1 reviewed the records of the past two or three years looking for anesthetic complications. And I found that one in 500 anesthetics resulted in death. Is that a lot? It's a very lot. And the national average at the time was about one in 2,000. So it was easily four times. Now, part of that was because we had severe trauma. We had car accidents coming in that people were severely injured and they were put to sleep and they died under anesthesia because the anesthesia, to some extent, wasn't administered competently. Some of them would have died anyway from the injuries. But nevertheless, it took some extra training and expertise at the time. I was happy to be the one to help change that situation. But over at Sunrise the administration and so on was not anxious to have any changes. They were a brand-new hospital. They had this little group there. And they wanted to leave it that way. Part of that is the history. The surgeons were in total control. And they would order the 8 nurse anesthetists and tell them what to do and how to do it, although they themselves may not have known. The nurse anesthetists, many of them were very, very technically competent, but they were not in a position to say to the surgeon this patient should not be put to sleep right now; give me an hour or two to give them fluids, blood, whatever it was. So they were kind of bullied into doing things that were not right. And many of the doctors who were practicing at the time liked that situation. Fortunately for me there were some younger surgeons here in town that were very anxious to have better anesthesia and better care and they referred a lot of patients to me and we had a very good relationship. Woo. That's interesting. Can you explain for the record what an anesthesiologist does? Well, everybody thinks that an anesthesiologist gives you a shot in those days. You know, he gave me Pentathol and the next time I knew anything about him was when I got his bill. But the truth is that an anesthesiologist is responsible for seeing to it that you have no pain or recollection of surgery and that your vitals - - your blood pressure, your pulse, your circulation - - stays within normal limits and that you survive the anesthesia and the surgery, which includes giving the fluids and the blood. And one of the big jobs that I had early in my career was canceling surgery for people who were not in the best condition. And I would say to the surgeons who would object, I'd say, look, I'm not getting paid for canceling the surgery; I'm not doing this for my own benefit, but this is what the patient needs to have done before he's in good enough condition to withstand the surgery and the anesthesia. And it worked out well. We had better survival and everything else. It was a win-win situation so far as I was concerned. And then the young surgeons were happy to have improved care for the patients. So do anesthesiologists ever have a private practice or are you always working in a hospital? Well, most hospitals outside of Las Vegas have a group of anesthesiologists that work within that hospital. When I came here I always thought that the anesthesiologist should have the ability to be and go wherever he wants. Now, as I told you they didn't want me to go on the staff at Sunrise Hospital at the time. On the other hand, the administrator at the county hospital offered me $150,000 a year to become the director of anesthesia and stay at that hospital only. 9 Which was a lot of money. $150,000 in 1961 was a ton of money. Did you tell him to take it? No. No. She never, ever interfered with that end of it. And I knew that would compromise his standards. And so the practice I started was, in essence, a referral practice, but not usually by the patients, although many patients later on would request that I give them their anesthesia. But the surgeon would request that I do the anesthesia for the various patients. And the surgeons at the time could request either an anesthesiologist - - and I was the only one; that made it me - - or the nurse anesthetist. As a result I got almost all of the very sickest patients. And I got all of the trauma that came in during the night. And I've said this over and over again and people have trouble believing it, but for the first six months that I was here I did not spend a whole night in my own bed. I was called out every night for six months for emergencies. Oh, my god. It was a different time. The Test Site was going full blast. But that's a pun. That's right. And the workers were getting paid to drive their own cars back and forth. The unions would get them extra money. Well, the fact was that the men would go out six in a car and each one was paid as though they were taking their own car. But they would carpool. There was no freeway out there. It was a two-lane highway. And especially on the weekends these men would finish work and they'd each get a six-pack of beer and drink it on the way home. And it was a pretty long drive. It was about 90 miles. And the driver would fall asleep, the car would roll over, and we would have a single-car rollover accident with six critically injured men coming in. There was a reason they called that highway "The Widow Maker." At any rate that was my life for the first six months I was here until I got somebody else who would come and give me a hand. And just to put it in context you also should say that you always had an office, a private office 10 outside the hospital. And that's what I was asking about. Explain more about the referral. The surgeon would schedule an operation, whether it was a hysterectomy or a repair of an orthopedic injury and so on, and would request that I give the anesthesia. And they would call my office to see if I was available. And we would accept that referral and be available for them. So the hospital didn't do his scheduling. The surgeon's office would call his office. What was your relationship like with those nurse anesthetists? How did that play out? Well, at first it was very difficult. They perceived that I was a risk to them. Their job was in danger. But I made it very clear that if they wanted to ask me anything or if they needed help, I would be there and assist them. And frequently I did. And I tried not to take over their jobs and so on. So, eventually, it became pretty good. I think that as more and more anesthesiologists came to Las Vegas, fewer and fewer nurse anesthetists came. And as the town grew larger, the nurse anesthetists who were here did less and less work and they retired as they got older and they weren't replaced by other nurses, but they were replaced by doctors. And that's the way it was. Now, I came the end of June. And about the same time Dr. Kemp, William Kemp came and he practiced at Rose de Lima in Henderson. He's dead, in case you were looking to call him. Thank you. And between the two of us we were busy. And there was very little that I could do to help him and very little that he could do to help me. But we were friends forever. Eventually he moved into Las Vegas and joined our group at the time and worked part time at Rose de Lima and part time in Las Vegas. And we would cover for him at Rose de Lima. Where is Rose de Lima? Henderson. Okay. So St. Rose? St. Rose. I remember very clearly being called out one night. He was out of town. And they had a woman who was having vaginal bleeding and having a miscarriage. And they said we need to do this right away and would you please come. We lived over Rancho and Bonanza area. And I know that I made it - - and some of it was dirt road at the time - - I made it in my car all the way 11 to St. Rose de Lima Hospital in ten minutes. I mean I checked the clock. The funny thing was that when I got there I was the first one to arrive because they knew that nothing happened that fast. Well, everything got taken care of and I went home and got back into bed for an hour or two and the next day started. But, you know, today there's no way in the world you could make that distance. But there was no speed limit and I'm sure I threw gravel all over the place getting there. No speed limit? There were in town. Yeah. But because of the desert in between here and Rose de Lima. Yeah. For years he had a red light that he could put on his car. Yep. All doctors had that? No. No. But I had enough emergency calls that I was able to get one and get a permit from the police department. And I would put it on top of my car and speed all the way there and go through red lights and all the rest of it. It was different then. Just like an ambulance. What kind of medical conditions did we see here in the desert that were unique to the desert especially at that time? Well, there was a condition that we used to talk about called table shock, which people would be brought in thought to have heart attacks and so on when, in fact, they had been standing up at the gambling table all night long. That's what I thought you were going to say. And they would faint from being upright all this time drinking too much and so on. And they would faint and be brought in. And somebody would say, well, you know, have they had a stroke, have they had this, have they had that? And most of them had what we call table shock from standing at the crap table for so long. But we had everything that you would find anyplace else in the world. People did come in with whatever injuries they had and they were dehydrated from the temperatures. Not everything 12 was air conditioned at that time. We didn't have air-conditioned cars, although there was air-conditioning. It was rare to have an air-conditioned car. Tell about the marines when they camped out in the desert. Oh, it was the military. Oh, we had a patient come in with snakebite. The army decided they were going to have desert maneuvers. And they brought all of these people here. They were out there in this terrible heat. And one of them was brought in. He was dead, but they brought him in. And I was called in to resuscitate this poor man. The military didn't know what every cowboy in the area knows. When you get out of bed in the morning and you've got a sleeping bag or a bedroll, you roll it up so snakes don't come in. The military said leave your bedroll; make it like a bed and leave it open. Well, this one young soldier came back, crawled into his sleeping bag, and several snakes had gotten in there. Rattlesnakes. And he couldn't get out fast enough. Usually an adult who gets bitten once by a snake will survive. They'll be sick, but they will survive. This man in his bag couldn't get out fast enough. And the snakes bit him. It must have been 11 bites that we counted on his legs and thighs. And he had so much venom that he was dead by the time he got here. That was an interesting thing. Area specific. Yeah, area specific. You know, the people around here who knew said,