Joe Cortez interview, November 29, 2018: transcript

AN INTERVIEW WITH JOE CORTEZ An Oral History Conducted by Laurents Bañuelos-Benitez Latinx Voices of Southern Nevada Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ©Latinx Voices of Southern Nevada University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2018 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV – University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcribers: Kristin Hicks, Maribel Estrada Calderón, Nathalie Martinez, Rodrigo Vazquez Editors and Project Assistants: Laurents Bañuelos-Benitez, Maribel Estrada Calderón, Monserrath Hernandez, Elsa Lopez, Nathalie Martinez, Marcela Rodriquez-Campo, Rodrigo Vazquez iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a National Endowment for Humanities (NEH) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Latinx Voices of Southern Nevada. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas iv PREFACE It is February 20th, 1995, the world’s eyes are set on El Estadio Azteca, Mexico’s largest sports stadium. Inside the facility, in front of an estimated 130,000 people, Mexican legend, Julio César Chávez, is defending his WBC super-light weight title against the American, Greg Haugen. In front of his countrymen, Chávez is punishing Haugen, who disrespected him years earlier in Las Vegas. During the 5th round, Haugen is barely able to stand on his feet, as the record breaking crowd calls for him to be knocked out. Chávez continues to land a barrage of punches, until finally the third man in the ring that night decides to step in to put an end to it. The stadium erupts with cheers for El León de Culiacán. The history books remembers this fight as the largest outdoor fight in the history of the sport. Casual boxing fans will always remember Chávez and Haugen battling it out in the heart v of Mexico, but a third man stood in the ring that night: Joe Cortez. Cortez was born to Puerto Rican parents in Spanish Harlem, New York City. Boxing was always a part of this Hall of Fame referee’s life. Cortez won multiple Golden Glove tournaments as an amateur boxer and had a successful, but short career as a professional boxer. Outside of boxing, Cortez also found success as military man, deli owner, hotel manager, and director of an ophthalmologist outreach program. Eventually, he would find himself back in the boxing ring, this time as a referee. His career as a referee took Cortez to the top of the boxing world. When he retired in 2012, Cortez officiated 176 World Championship Fights. In 2011, Cortez was inducted in the International Boxing Hall of Fame alongside, Mike Tyson, Julio César Chávez, Kostya Tszyu, Ignacio Beristain, and Sylvester Stallone. vi TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Joe Cortez November 29th, 2018 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Laurents Bañuelos-Benitez Preface………………………………………………………………………………………….iv-v Describes Spanish Harlem and early boxing career; examines time spent in the military during Vietnam era; origins of parent’s ancestry; explains significance of Golden Glove Tournament; discourse on Puerto Rican heritage and traditions; speaks on managing El Conquistador in Puerto Rico…………………………………………………………………………………………….1-8 Returns to New York City; purchases first home using Veterans Affairs benefits; meets Pat Mascia who introduces him to the idea of refereeing; begins referee career at Golden Gloves Tournament; becomes a professional referee; discusses skills that made him an excellent referee………………………………………………………………………………..……….9-15 Reflects on first night as professional referee; explains how he arrived in Las Vegas; meets Chuck Minka; flies out to Las Vegas to judge Holmes v. Spinks; becomes an office manager for ophthalmologist; starts outreach program for free eye exams………………………………..16-25 Joins the World Boxing Council; makes permeant move to Las Vegas; reflects on acting career; discusses time spent training Connor McGregor; reflects on first impression of Las Vegas; speaks on areas of Las Vegas he has lived in…………………………………………..…….26-34 Appointed by multiple governors to State Nursing Board; speaks on ethical practices of nursing; meets President Bill Clinton; discusses Joe Brown and National Republican Convention; Lou Tabot appoints Cortez deputy constable; becomes constable for North Las Vegas……….…35-40 Mentions Boxing Hall of Fame induction; reflects on Chavez v. De La Hoya; discusses officiating largest outdoor fight in Mexico City; speaks on George Foreman becoming oldest Heavyweight Champion; mentions Durán v. Barkely; reflects on last fight of his career Álvarez v. Lopez………………………………………………...……………………………………..41-49 Explains origins of Mexican and Puerto Rican boxing rivalry; speaks on the future of boxing; names his favorite boxer; shares his experience being inducted in Boxing Hall of Fame; discusses his boxing idol; shares opinion on who the greatest of all time is…………………50-59 1 Today is November 29th, 2018. This is Laurents Bañuelos-Benitez and I am joined by... Barbara Tabach. Today we are located in the offices of Mr. Joe Cortez. Mr. Joe Cortez, could you go ahead and pronounce and spell your name for me? Joe Cortez; J-O-E, and the last name is C-O-R-T-E-Z. Thank you. I'd like to start with your childhood and your early days. Where were you born? I was born and raised in Spanish Harlem in New York City. What was Spanish Harlem like? Spanish Harlem is a borough of Manhattan. I was from a single-parent home. It was four siblings. We grew up in a tough neighborhood, a lot of drugs and a lot of gangs; however, my brothers were the few that went the right way. We got involved with sports; at least my brother Mike and I got into boxing, and my brother Richie got into entertainment and music, and my brother Ralphie was an actor. We ended up Golden Gloves champions of New York City, my brother Mike and I. We were a product of the Boys' Club of New York. I started with the Boys' Club when I was fifteen years age. I won my first New York Golden Gloves Championship a year later at the age of sixteen at Madison Square Garden along with my brother Mike. That was the beginning of our amateur career. I ended up winning a total of six Golden Gloves Championships; the New York, the East, 2 and the Nationals. I turned pro when I was eighteen years of age. I had a record of eighteen and one as a professional, a record of forty-three and two as an amateur. I ended up joining the military, the army, at the age of eighteen, as well when I turned pro, four fights after I—I lost my first fight, my fifth fight; that was my first loss and I decided to go into the army. When I came out, I continued my career. I was still a little active in the pros while in the army at the border of Mexico; I would go into Mexico and fight six or seven times during my stint down in Fort Hood, Texas. I got out of the army, I ended up getting married when I was twenty-one. I met my wife, Sylvia, in New York City when she was fourteen and I was seventeen. That's how it all started. When she was nineteen and I was twenty-one, we ended up getting married and we've been married for the last fifty-three years. We have three beautiful daughters; Cindy, Sandy and Christine. How do you identify yourself, as Chicano, Latino, or Hispanic? I consider myself American first, Hispanic from Puerto Rican parents, from Puerto Rico. I consider myself a Hispanic. I think in English, but I have to speak in Spanish as well. I work for ESPN as a boxing analyst, so I do a lot of Spanish for ESPN. Were your parents originally from Spanish Harlem? They're both from Puerto Rico. What brought them over? My father was a Merchant Marine and he met my mother in Puerto Rico in 1942. They decided to move to New York City and that's where it all started. 3 What did they do in Harlem? Did your father continue being a Merchant Marine? No. They were here for a while and then he ended up in the garment industry. My mother and father separated and got divorced when I was a young kid, about the age of two or three. My mother was also in the garment industry. My father owned factories in New York City, women's dresses, so that was his trade. My mother was a housekeeper. Could you explain for people who aren't familiar with it, what the Golden Gloves tournament is and what that experience was like? Winning the Golden Gloves in New York, first of all, winning any Golden Gloves Championship in New York City, you're among the toughest fighters in the nation. Winning the Golden Gloves to me was a dream come true. When I was going to high school, my physical ed teacher said, "Joe, very few people can make it to the championship." There's only one guy by the last name of Kelley, I think it was John Kelley; he was going to Samuel Gompers High School where I went as well. He was the only champion in the Bronx area. He said, "Joe, it's going to be very difficult for you." Because I was kind of thin and I was young and inexperienced. But little would he know, the year before I graduated, I was already six-time Golden Gloves Champion, winner in New York, Eastern and National. The guy Kelley he was talking about only won the New York Championship once. I ended up repeatedly winning the championships in not only New York, but the East, and knocking out two guys the same night in Madison Square Garden while winning the Eastern Championship along with my brother Mike. We were the first brothers ever to win the New York Championship the same night, first brothers to win the Eastern Championship the same night, and the first brothers to ever win the National 4 Championship the same night, in different weight classes. We accomplished a lot that a lot of people never thought we could do. We accomplished a lot. What was your neighborhood like growing up? The neighborhood was gangs and a lot of drug-related individuals, a lot of individuals who were doing pot, heroin. It was gangs and whatnot. We had to just stay away from them. We had to go through all these neighborhoods; from the Boys' Club, from 99th Street and Park and Madison going to 111th Street, First and Second Ave, we went through about five different territories, five different gangs. We managed to do that for four consecutive years. We never were attacked by anybody. My brother Mike and I, maybe because they just happened to know who we were and because we kept our boxing gloves hanging outside of our bags when we were walking through these neighborhoods. I guess they felt these guys are fighters, these two guys. Then after we started winning the championships, everybody knew who we were throughout the neighborhood. Instead of being enemies, everybody was always waving at us. All the guys, "Hey, Cortez brothers, you guys are great. Keep up the good work." It was kind of a blessing in disguise because we were able to weather the storm with all these guys and stay out of drugs and did the right things. Growing up did your family keep in touch with the Puerto Rican heritage? Did you guys do certain holidays? Yes. Well, in New York we always celebrated like everybody else. We didn't have the culture of Puerto Rico as they celebrate all these Three Kings' Day and all that; that's out in the island in Puerto Rico. Here in the United States, well, of course, a lot of Puerto Ricans move here. Some celebrate Three Kings' Day, which is January sixth, but we really didn't do that. 5 What about food? The food definitely. That still goes on today; that Puerto Rican food, yes. Can you describe some of those dishes? Yes, sure. We have rice and chicken; rice and beans; steaks; arroz con dulce, rice with pigeon peas beans. There was fried sweet plantains or green plantains. It was just a lot of asopao de pollo; they had chicken and rice mixed with soup. Those types of traditional types of food. Arroz con gandules, rice and kidney beans, chicken and steak and all that; that's the kind of food that we grew up on. I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about your time in the military. What was that like? It was good. I did my basic training in Fort Dix, New Jersey. Then from there I was transferred down to Fort Hood, Texas where I did my advanced infantry training in Armored Division. I found out they had a boxing program. I went out to the boxing program. I started working out there and before I knew it they pulled me aside and said, "Joe, you're eighteen years old, man, but you don't look like an amateur fighter and you've got a lot of skills. You can't be on the team. We've already had about four pro fights." I said, "I'm not looking to get on the team. I'm just looking to stay active." But I had become friendly with one of the chaplains, Father Sheen. I told Father Sheen, "They want me off the team because they want me to be an amateur fighter. I can't fight amateur. I've already turned pro." 6 They said, "This is what we can do." They kept me on the team as a coach, so I was able to continue working out and sparring with the fighters on the team. It made my military...I didn't have to go to war. The Vietnam era was just starting and I was in with the boxing team, so they kept me on the boxing team and we helped entertain the soldiers around Texas area and participated in different tournaments. Where would the military team compete? They would compete right there on the base in Fort Hood, Texas. They would come and fight there. Then after that we would go out to Los Angeles or we would go out to Maryland; we went there one time for some tournament. But we mainly stayed in that Fort Hood area. We had a good boxing program there. You said you would go to Mexico to fight in some pro fights? Yes, on the weekends. I had my connections with my people when they took me to fight pro. My pro, Gaspar Ortega was fighting out of Mexico. He would fight there and then they would make arrangements where they would meet me. I went to Juárez and fight in Juárez and Loreto; I would fight there. I went three times to fight in Hawaii when I took a leave. I was able to participate and be active in the army, but I was able to participate in the pros in my career. I wasn't really that inactive and when I came back out I was basically not as rusty because I was so very active. What year did you leave the military? I left the military in 1963. Then did you decide to continue with your pro boxing career after that? 7 Yes, I did. Yes, I continued my boxing career. I kept on and I ended up going undefeated. One day I decided I was going to retire because I was married and I wasn't making any money in boxing and I had to get myself a real job and ended up going into the hospitality business. Where were you working? I was working at the El Conquistador hotel in Puerto Rico. Actually, I started my exterminating business in New York City after I got married and prior to that I was working the Museum City of New York. I was involved with security at the Museum City of New York and that was not working out with my boxing schedule. I was still active. I ended up working with an exterminating company and then I ended up going on my own and having my own business. One day, when some guy made me an offer to buy my exterminating business in New York, which was doing very well, I ended up selling it to him and that's the money that made my move to Puerto Rico and bought my first house in Puerto Rico in 1969. That's where I started working at the El Conquistador hotel as a front desk clerk, working the graveyard shift. Before you know it—I was working the day shift—about six months later they asked me if I was interested in becoming front office manager and I took that position. Shortly thereafter, another six, seven months later, they asked me to take over the reservations department. The reservations manager was leaving and he was in charge of front desk as well. Now I'm the supervisor for front office and reservations. Then I decided to make a comeback in boxing. I talked to the owner of the hotel, Lou Puro, and told him what I accomplished in the amateurs and the pros, and he was willing to manage me for my next pro fight after being retired three and a half years. I came back and won my next professional fight in late 1971 against a Dominican fighter by the name of Sal La Chapel. I ended 8 up beating him. I didn't get hurt, but my family didn't want to see me in the ring again. I came out unmarked in that fight, but I saw how upset they were about me getting back into boxing, I then decided to work in the hospitality industry. The owner of the hotel, Lou Puro, when I told him I'm not going to continue fighting, he said, "What do you want to do?" I said, "I love this hotel industry. I like it, the hotel business." He said, "You give me all you got, I'll make sure you get to the top." We shook hands. About a year later he made me assistant manager of the hotel. Then about another year and a half later they made me executive manager of the hotel. I was already like three years, three and a half years in the hotel industry there. I finished up eight years in Puerto Rico. I become friends with Bob Guccione, the owner of Penthouse magazine, who was a guest at the hotel on numerous occasions. He offered me a job if I ever came up to New York that he would like to use me in his office. He saw the work I was working in Puerto Rico. He said, "Are you thinking of ever coming back?" I said, "I'm thinking about it." The following year I give him a call and said, "I'm going back to New York." He said, "Come on up. I'd like to interview you and meet our staff and show you around." And I did. He says, "Are you ready to come work with us?" I said, "Sure." I came back to Puerto Rico and told the owner of the hotel, Mr. Puro, "I'm leaving. I'm going back to New York City." He said, "What are you going to do in New York, Joe?" I said, "I'm going to work for your friend Bob Guccione." He said, "Joe, we have a sales office in New York City, a big office. You know we have a big office and we run the casino operations from our New York office. The casino is Puerto Rico, but the brains and everything behind the casino is in 9 the New York office." And he said, "I'd like to replace a man and I'll put you in charge of that program from my New York office." I said, "Okay. How about Sylvia?" Sylvia was working with me at the hotel as well. She was clubhouse manager. She was pro shop manager. She had a lot of experience in the hotels working there with me. As a matter of fact, when we left the hotel in 1976, they had a big farewell party for both of us. They congratulate us for leaving and that we're doing a fine job, but they said, "The best employee we ever had at the hotel was Sylvia Cortez." They didn't want to offend anybody, but that's the way it was. She was really one of the best workers they ever had. She's a workaholic, gave it all she had. Anyway, I said, "How about Sylvia?" He said, "You know what, Joe? I'm going to make some moves in the reservation department in the New York office." We have three casinos, three hotels and one building, another hotel—no, not casino operation. He said, "We'll make her reservations manager." We made our move to New York. I told Bob Guccione, "I'm sorry, but I'm staying with Lou Puro." He was like a father figure to me and he kept me on the right track and always watched out for me and Sylvia. I did another seven years with him until they started closing down one of the hotels and another one was in bankruptcy. I decided to move on and got involved in the food and beverage business. I ended up buying a delicatessen in New York. It had a liquor section and we opened the deli. We did that for another six years. Where was the deli? 10 The deli was in Yonkers, New York, on Nepperhan Avenue. I wanted to ask, what made you go to Puerto Rico after the exterminating business? My brother-in-law, Pedro, was working in the interior decorating department for the El Conquistador hotel, which at that time back then was purchased for thirty-two million dollars. That is nothing compared to what it's worth today. The year before Hurricane Maria, they had put like three hundred million dollars into that property. It is owned by Waldorf Astoria now. I've been there recently. After Hurricane Maria I did an independent freelance documentary on Hurricane Maria. I went to the El Conquistador hotel to interview the general manager. Back in '69 we decided to go there because my brother-in-law kept saying, "Joe, there's an opportunity with a beautiful hotel." Sylvia, my wife, wanted to go. She and her brother kept telling me, "There's opportunities there." But the timing was not right for us because we had two young kids. But by selling the exterminating business, I made the money and we could put a good down payment and I was able to use my VA one-dollar-down deposit on the house with the VA loan. I ended up purchasing the house and put another big down payment down on top of it as well to do a little bit more to it. It was a nice home, but I fixed it up a lot better. A pretty, new home, but I needed a little more space; I needed to add a little bit more construction to it. But at that point we decided to stay and we didn't know when we were coming back to New York. I knew we were not going to move back to New York right away, but after eight years I had enough and I felt I learned enough and I wanted to do something different. Coming back to your deli, what was that experience like, owning that business and running it? 11 It was kind of easy. We're people persons. I've always had to deal with all kinds of people being that I was in the hotel industry and my wife, Sylvia, as well. We learned how to deal with people that were in the different departments at the hotels; food and beverage, reservations, at the convention facility, the housekeeping, the golfing, the tennis, all that, the marina. I got to learn everything in the front of the house and the back of the house. I learned so much that I felt I could basically do anything. I like challenges and basically you can give me anything you have and put it in front of me and I'll tackle it. That's how I ended up going back to New York. But when I came back to New York, before I left, I met a gentleman by the name of Pat Mascia, M-A-S-C-I-A. Pat was a policeman and detective in New York City. He used to referee my fights in New York City and my brother's when we were fighting in the amateurs. He had now been retired from the police department, but he was a guest at the El Conquistador and was reading some literature on the hotel and saw my name, Joe Cortez, assistant manager. He called the operator and said, "Could I speak to the manager?" He said, "Are you Joe Cortez, one of the Cortez brothers from New York that won the Gloves?" I said, "Yes, I am." He said, "I used to referee your fights. I'm Pat Mascia." I said, "I remember your name." I came out from my office and met him in the lobby and we chatted. He was there for about a week or so. I showed him a good time while he was there, him and his wife, Rose. We exchanged phone numbers. He said, "If you ever come back to New York, give me a call." Well, in 1976, December of '76, I was moving back to New York. I got back to New York. I called him up. I said, "Pat, I'm back in New York City. I'm just letting you know I'm back. You said call you up. I'm here." He said, "Joe, have you ever thought of becoming a referee? There's opportunity. There's only one Hispanic referee in New York City and that is Tony Perez." He said, "I can get you involved in the amateurs." I said, "I would like that." He said, "I'm going to 12 give you a phone number of Johnny Defoe, D-E-F-O-E. He's in charge of the police athletic program. Call him up and see what happens." So I called Johnny. "Johnny, it's Joe Cortez." He said, "Yes, Joe, I remember you and your brother when we went up to Canada, Montreal, and you guys represented United States, International Golden Gloves competition in 1961." He said, "I remember that was your first lost in the amateurs." I said, "I remember. My brother Mike won and I lost." Another fighter, Johnny James won. There were three American champions that represented the U.S. That was my first loss. Anyway, he said, "Yes, come on down to the police department. We have a little program with young kids, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen years old." He said, "Come down in white slacks, white sneakers. I'll give you a white T-shirt, Police Athletic League in the front." I went there and started working with these young little kids. A couple of months after I'm doing this, he said, "Joe, the Golden Gloves are right around the corner. I want you to sign up for the Golden Gloves. You're pretty decent with what you're doing here with these young kids. We'll get you in the Golden Gloves and see where we go from there." I started refereeing the Golden Gloves tournament, novice division. I remember one night there was a big snowstorm in New York City, in Brooklyn. It was about, oh, two feet of snow. Normally you would have five, six, seven referees for that night. None of the referees showed up. I was the only referee there. Some judges showed up, so that was good. But they had twenty-seven amateur fights. They're young kids, novices. I ended up refereeing twenty-seven fights that night. They were one round, two rounds. They were novices. They were getting 13 bumped up to where you had to stop them or whatever. Very few went the distance. I ended up doing twenty-seven fights. Johnny Defoe got the word of people saying, "This guy Joe Cortez, he's in that ring and he's moving around like nothing. He finished up twenty-seven fights. He was fresh as a daisy and ready to keep on going." I continued with the Golden Gloves. Then he said, "Yes, come to more fights around that tournament." He said, "Joe, here in the Golden Gloves no one does the quarterfinals the first year. You part of the second or third year and you start doing the quarterfinals." I said, "Okay, good, I'm glad to get involved and have the opportunity." Then I called him up and said, "Pat, listen, I got a little notice in the mail and they want me to do the quarterfinals in a couple of weeks." He said, "Joe, nobody does the quarterfinals. You're kidding me. You just started." I said, "They want me to do the quarterfinals." He said, "Well, good luck to you. That's great, man." I did the quarterfinals. He said, "Joe, you did good in the quarterfinals, very good. Good luck to you. We'll see you next year." I said, "Thanks." A couple of weeks goes by again and I get another notice. I said, "Pat, they've got me doing the semifinals." He said, "Come on, Joe, you're pulling my leg. Semifinals, no way." "Yes, Pat." I did two semifinal fights. He said, "Wow, Joe, you looked great. That was great. See you next year, buddy." "Thanks a lot for the opportunity." 14 "Pat, I got another notice in the mail." He said, "What?" I said, "They've got me doing two championship fights in Madison Square Garden." He said, "Joe, you just started. You're six months in the amateurs. You just started." I said, "Yes, but I'm doing two championship fights." They had me doing the two championship fights in Madison Square Garden. He congratulated me and everything for a job well done. Then I got a call from the New York State Athletic Commission, a gentleman by the name of Frank Morris, a deputy commissioner. He called me and said, "Joe, I want to see you up in the office. I want to talk with you." I thought, New York State Athletic Commission, what the hell do they want to talk to me about? I'm an amateur referee. I got up there and he said, "Joe, I've been watching you. I was at the finals the other night and I saw you refereeing the championship fights as an amateur and you're kind of impressive. I'd like to turn you pro." I said, "You've got to be kidding. They had told me five, six, seven years before you are even considered going pro." He said, "No, we want to turn you pro now." I said, "Wow. Am I going to get work?" He said, "Joe, I promise you I will give you work on every show that we have." They have about twenty-five to thirty shows a year in New York City. "I'm going to put you on every show working the four-rounders and six-round fights to get you started so you can feel your way through it. It's a little different in the pros than it is in the amateurs, but we're going to get you right into the preliminary fights." I did the first year four- to six-rounders. The following year they gave me eight-round fights. Then they gave me a main event on national TV on NBC. That was my first main event on national TV and I'm only refereeing now a year and a half. I said, "Wow." Next thing you know, they kept using me for main event fights, not the big, huge ones, no championship fight, but 15 main events, and not every fight on television is a championship fight. They had me doing preliminary fights, six-rounders, eight-rounders, four-rounders, ten-rounders, some of them main events. At one time I was doing two or three fights on ESPN, NBC, CBS. They kept me busy. Before you know it, now I'm five years into the pros and I get my call to do my first World Championship fight, Aaron Pryor and Miguel Montilla, M-O-N-T-I-L-L-A. Aaron Pryor was one of the best junior lightweight champions in the world and they had me refereeing that fight, which I stopped in the eleventh round with Aaron Pryor retaining his championship. But that was the beginning. My dream was to do one World Championship fight. When I retired in September of 2012, I retired with a hundred and seventy-six World Championship fights under my belt. What do you attribute? What did they see you in that made you move up the ranks so quickly? I guess being an ex-fighter and I was a good dancer, maybe dancing in the ring because Latinos like to dance. I had good foot mechanics and in the ring I was always using career mechanics, positioning, timing, not too much in the fighter's face, but a little distance, but always circling around them and keeping that distance, and making sure that if a fighter was taking unnecessary punishment that I could jump right in and stop it immediately. My job as a referee, first and foremost, is safety of the fighters and second is enforcing the rules. I ended up refereeing Mike Tyson on nine occasions, Julio César Chávez on six occasions, Oscar De La Hoya six times, Manny Pacquiao three times, Floyd Mayweather four times, Sugar Ray Leonard and Larry Holmes. You name all the fighters in the last three and a half decades, all the main event fighters, I refereed all these old fighters. The only one I never refereed was Muhammad Ali. By the time I turned pro, Muhammad Ali was just retiring, so I never had the 16 honor of refereeing him in the ring, but I had the honor of being with him on numerous occasions. I was wondering, if you can, go back to that first day of you reffing professionally? What was that night like? What was going through your head? That night happened to take place in Harlem, in New York City. It was a couple of four-round fights that I refereed. It was a state building in 125th Street near the Apollo Theater. Two of the greatest referees—to me the dean of all referees, a fellow by the name of Arthur Mercante. Arthur Mercante has a son, Arthur Mercante, Jr., who is an active referee these days. But Arthur McCanty was the referee that night along with Tony Perez, the only other Hispanic referee in New York City; those were the two referees there that night. They were not paying me that night. They just wanted to try me out. But these two referees had to report back to the commission how I performed that night. It was an untelevised bout. I remember they thanked me for being there, the promoter. They gave me five d