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William McLeod interview, March 16, 1978: transcript






On March 16, 1978, Valerie McLeod interviewed her father William Lee McLeod (b. January 31st, 1937 in Los Angeles, California) about his life in Las Vegas, Nevada. McLeod begins by speaking about his career as a contractor, the growth of Las Vegas and the city’s population. Moreover, he speaks about recreational activities such as riding motorcycles and exploring mines around Nevada. McLeod also spends time going over Indian reservations around Nevada and neighboring states, the Lost City in Nevada, boomtowns and ghost towns. Lastly, McLeod talks about the history of water and springs in the state of Nevada, what he would consider to be the Old Ranch and the stagecoaches that passed through Gold Point, Nevada.

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McLeod, William Interview, 1978 March 16. OH-01267. [Transcript]. Oral History Research Center, Special Collections and Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.


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UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 1 An Interview with William Lee McLeod An Oral History Conducted by Valerie McLeod Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 2 © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2020 UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 3 The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 4 Abstract On March 16, 1978, Valerie McLeod interviewed her father William Lee McLeod (b. January 31st, 1937 in Los Angeles, California) about his life in Las Vegas, Nevada. McLeod begins by speaking about his career as a contractor, the growth of Las Vegas and the city’s population. Moreover, he speaks about recreational activities such as riding motorcycles and exploring mines around Nevada. McLeod also spends time going over Indian reservations around Nevada and neighboring states, the Lost City in Nevada, boomtowns and ghost towns. Lastly, McLeod talks about the history of water and springs in the state of Nevada, what he would consider to be the Old Ranch and the stagecoaches that passed through Gold Point, Nevada. UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 5 Okay. Name—the person being interviewed is William Lee McLeod. The day of the interview is March 16th, 1978. The time is seven o'clock p.m. Place of the interview is home of Mr. McLeod, 2855 Montessouri, Las Vegas, Nevada. My name is Valerie Victoria McLeod, address 2816 Burton, Las Vegas, Nevada. Name of the project is Nevada History Oral Interview. Could you please state your name and address? William Lee McLeod, 2855 Montessouri, Las Vegas, Nevada. Where were you born and what is your birth date? Los Angeles, California. January 31st, 1937. Have you traveled much during your life? Oh the United States, parts of Mexico and Hawaii, Canada. What area seems to interest you the most as far as historical? As far as historical? That's a pretty hard question. Northern California is probably the most historical place I've ever been. Nevada is a very historical place. It's what you seek out and where you are as to how historically you find it. And what kind of history that you're interested in? History of the Americans in the United States, I would say. And the Indian culture. Okay. What year did you come to Las Vegas? Nineteen sixty-one. Did you come for working reasons or for other reasons? Working reasons only. Okay. Okay. What's your occupational status? I am self-employed, painting and drywall contractor. And from the time that you've been here, how drastically has the growth of Las Vegas been UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 6 changing? (Unintelligible) it’s grown considerably. Okay. We can all see how rapid it's growing, but can you estimate how fast things are going up around town? Well— In comparison to the people in town? Since 1970, the population—I don't know the exact numbers, but I know that my company’s alone done almost a thousand units per year. And I'm just one small company in this town. So I would have to say that construction and people, the influx of people in this town has been phenomenal. I would probably have to say in this past period of time since 1970, it's probably grown 100,000 people. As far as building, are they building more than people that are coming into town or are they building right with the number of people that are moving here? Oh well there’s, at present, there's probably more building going on than the people coming into town, which is typical of the times. But (unintelligible) there's new hotels being built. There's a lot of industry coming to town. We're doing a heck of a job promoting this town for industry. It's paying off and it's bringing more people to town. As far as like when you first moved here, where was this—where was the central area of Las Vegas? Where was it located? Downtown Las Vegas. (Unintelligible) the middle of the Strip. And as far as housing, where was the housing like? Housing essentially was on the east side of town. Like up by Sunrise Mountain? Up that way? UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 7 Well from Downtown Las Vegas, out Boulder Highway and in the Twin Lakes area of course was (unintelligible). But the nucleus in town, and to the south toward Henderson was essential growth area. By the growth rate that Las Vegas is producing now can you estimate where Las Vegas is going to end up by the time they get done building it? Is it gonna reach throughout the valley and to all the mountains? It's not gonna be in twenty years or anything like that. But everyone seems to lose sight of the fact that this world's not gonna stop next week. So essentially when we're done with this valley, it’s going to be completely filled. Well, do you really believe that it's going to end up like LA? Because personally I don't care for it, how big a city as LA is. Absolutely. Well, it depends on how long you want to wait. In my opinion, you know, the people that estimate the growth of this world say that the whole planet is going to be full. I would say yes, by all means that sometime in the distant future Las Vegas will have as many people as Los Angeles now. Let's—everybody considers Las Vegas to be such a transit community. How can we say that then there's going to be that many people if we have the reputation of being transit? Which is true, because I have worked in areas where I know that people just are in and out all the time. Well this is a transient area in some respects, but a lot of the transients are staying. They're finding a home, they're finding a place that there's a lot of activity. The wages here are higher than most anywhere around. There's lots of places to spend your money. There's lots of things to do to spend money, to—and a reasonable amount of sports and activities around town. Although UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 8 it's not a kids’ town, but it is definitely an adult town. Okay. With Atlantic City going up, do you feel that the developers in Las Vegas might be overdoing it a bit? Because there seems to be things going up all over town. And maybe they're not taking into consideration that we're going to be losing quite a few patrons because of Atlantic City. I don't believe that we're going to lose that many patrons because of Atlantic City. Because they'll never, within our lifetimes at least, be able to compete with the entertainment, the aura of Las Vegas. Everyone, the number one spot where people want to come to this country on vacations is Las Vegas because it is what it is. And it's going to take them a considerable length of time to have anything like Las Vegas. It may come in the future, but I believe in the future, when that time comes there’ll be so many darn people anyhow, I hope (laughs) you know, there be plenty around for people in Atlantic City and here too. And now you just mentioned that Las Vegas isn't really a kid's town, but it is an adult town. As far as sports and recreation goes, do you have any kind of hobbies that you do around Las Vegas? Well, I like to four wheel in the desert. I ride motorcycles. I've raced motorcycles. I like the lake, but I'm not really a lake buff. (Unintelligible) is just too hot. (Unintelligible) and I like to go to the mountains and that kind of thing. As far as like the four wheeling and the motorcycle, hasn't the Nevada BLM kind of killed a lot of that by putting restrictions on riding areas and so forth and so on around Las Vegas? And also having—they shut down a few of the major races that brought quite a few riders to Las Vegas. Well, I don't know if the bill we have is entirely to blame on the matter, in Nevada at least. In UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 9 California, that's pretty much the case (unintelligible) cultures. In Nevada there really aren't too many land closures with BLM. The BLM is restricted. Organized racing on new desert, which limits the racing, but to go out on your own out in the desert, on the back roads or something like (unintelligible). Well, the only thing is, and from what I, from what I understand the BLM by restricting the racing has really limited the sport in Las Vegas, but also that people have proved that even those races do not destroy the desert like BLM says they do. Well, as I say, BLM isn't really entirely to blame. Having known numerous BLM people, BLM isn’t really entirely to blame; Sierra Club is more to blame than anyone else. What is Sierra Club? Sierra Club is a group of people that are, that are natures and they’re dedicated to saving every blade of grass. Okay. In my opinion. Of course, if you listen to a Sierra Clubber, he's going to tell you a little bit different. As far as—have you done much exploring in the Nevada area or in the Las Vegas area? Considerable. What kind? Mining or? Oh I’ve explored most of the (unintelligible) in this area, (unintelligible) numerous places and old towns and things like that. Can you tell us maybe a little bit about some of the places that you have explored or you know the location of the mine or location in the old town? Something of interest about them. UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 10 Well, being my prime recreational activity, that would be a very long story. My favorite place for exploring is in the Searchlight area because it's good motorcycle riding, because it's got an abundance of old mines and old homes, mine shacks, whatever, scattered through the mountains down there, south of Searchlight. And into the (unintelligible) range and back to the south and west of Searchlight. It's just very interesting (unintelligible) to me, this is my favorite place. I've explored coming on around in the Clark mountain area. Down—it's actually in California, there's numerous old mines up there. New mines (unintelligible) the major mining activity in this, in southern—in southwest United States right now. There’s the mine there at Mountain Pass. Mines rare earths, but on around there coming back up the other way, explore it all around. Good Springs and Sandy Valley and—oh, I’ve been to mines back in Sandy Valley that I don't believe anyone's been to for many, many years because they're still intact and all the wood is still intact and such. The Charleston range I've explored at length. (Unintelligible) down the roads because the—and the trails because (unintelligible) sun and the sheep mountain range. You know, you can't get too far in the sheep mountain range because (unintelligible) but I've been up as far as you can get in the sheep mountain range. And to the east then, I've been out to the (unintelligible) mine out there, the Western Chemical Company (unintelligible). It's out, oh, twenty miles east of Las Vegas. Past the (unintelligible) and just been all around this area. As far as excluding this area. Like up in Goldfield and Tonopah, have you been anywhere in there? Oh gosh, yes. I've been in all the small towns in Nevada (laughs) I believe. As far as the small towns, have you ever met anybody, an old timer so to speak, that would remember any of the way it was back when Nevada was first settling? UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 11 Well (unintelligible) at Gold Point. And she's, I don't know if she's still alive now. She had lived there since Gold Point was a very small town. I mean, not a small town, it was a big town, it was a bustling town from the mining activity. And she came there early 1900s and she was still living there the last time I’d heard. And you remember the old guy that came in here with that Volkswagen, that old bearded man that came in here with that Volkswagen that lived way out in the desert? And well, I guess, you know—you and the kid went to sleep that night and Ken and I went over, had a few beers, talked to him (unintelligible) that was quite interesting. Where was this at? Up in—? At Gold Point. Remember the trip we took up there? No (laughs) I don’t. You don't remember? That camping trip with a camping truck? We went on a, we towed a Dodge truck and we drove up there in the Jeep with Ken Clevenger and his son and you and I. Mm-mm. Valerie, how could you—how could you forget? (Laughs) Dad, it's been a while. Well, anyhow that was a very interesting trip. We explored all north of Death Valley. And all the mines that we could find out there. We found, one place we went to that no one had been there for—well, prior to our arrival, someone got there before we did and picked up all the (unintelligible) and the neat stuff. But no one had been in there for like sixty years prior to this guy that had come in there. In fact the guy with the, with the Volkswagen that we had talked to at the store two nights previous and it was quite interesting. UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 12 Have you ever found anything, any remnants that you know were worth anything? Or, or like the mines you say that were intact, did they have like still the little mining carts and so forth and so on around? Oh yes, gosh yes. (Unintelligible) How about the construction of the mines? Did they seem—for that time period, did they seem to be fairly sturdy? Or, you know, there's so much controversy on mining today. How would those standards compare with the ones that we have now? Well, from what I understand now, they're very safe whereas it doesn't look to me that they were too safe then. They shored ‘em up with big timbers and some cement, and did things like that. (Unintelligible) safety now, I understand they have metal, interlocking metal pieces that go down the line (unintelligible) and all sorts of things for the safety requires, super safe. But I'm not, not being around mines now so I don’t really know too much about it. But I'm sure they’re more safe now than they were fifteen hundred years ago. You know, as far as historical places around Nevada, can you think of any that really stand out that are really historical that mean—or that you know something really personally about it? Not anything that stands out. Every place that you go has its own historical value. I've been, as I said, I’ve been to almost every small town and gold camp and everything that's on any map in the state of Nevada. Well, take that back. Say, north of the highway going to two Wells, across from Reno to Wells and out that way, I haven’t been out there too much. But below that, I've been to Hamilton, Ely, and Hamilton’s Duckwater and (unintelligible). I mean, I've been all over the state. Usually, whenever I have that (unintelligible) for exploring the countryside or whatever. And each has its own historical value. And I wouldn't say that anything attracts me UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 13 personally, but it's—they’re all very interesting places. If I ask you a question about, if I put the words at you “old ranch,” what comes to your mind? What around the Las Vegas area seems to be the old ranch? Well, the immediate thing that comes to mind is Bob Taylor's old ranch house, but for historical, I am not sure if what the old ranch might pertain to the Tule Springs Ranch. (Unintelligible) is the place that I have to think of as the old ranch, where the stagecoach station was. You know, where the adobe was, you know, houses out there with the adobe and all that out there at Tule Springs. Okay. Let’s see. Do you know anything about the original Mormon settlement here in Las Vegas? Well, I believe that's the building downtown by the Elks Lodge. I'm not really sure (unintelligible). That's either, that building is either the old Mormon settlement or the Stewart Ranch and I can't really think of which it is. Like down in Overton, the Lost City. Do you know anything about the Lost City? Well only that I’ve been there, and walked through (unintelligible). What was its historical meaning? What's the point of the Lost City? What was it? What was it? Well it was an Indian settlement. It was built around the shores of the Muddy River quite some time ago. It started quite some time ago and it continued up to, through recent times. I don’t remember the exact date it was. This man abandoned by the Indians, but also, I know that it went back many thousands of years because of its proximity to the river. The Valley of Fire, does that have any significance with the Lost City since there’s supposed to be the writings from Indians or? The pictographs. UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 14 Yes. Yes. Well, the Valley of Fire was a sacred holy ground type of an area to the Indians who lived on the backs of the Muddy River. They, before the white man came down here messed things up, they had a pretty good life going. But that was their, that was their say, like they say, kinda a special place to— Have you ever been in any other of the Indian settlements? Or like, isn't there a reservation in Nevada? Oh yes. Well, there’s reservations all over Nevada and then there’re Indian settlements. But essentially in Nevada, from what I've seen of ‘em, they're just another little town. Like Schurz, you know how Schurz is, going out to the lake that’s just another small town, but that is, that is a part of a Indian reservation. That's the headquarters of the Indian reservation. A big, historical—not really a big deal, but the Donner Party. Do you know much about what happened on Donner summit? Yes. (Laughs) They got stuck in the snow and couldn’t get out and, essentially, they tried to cross the mountain across (unintelligible). Do you know if they got caught on our side of the Donner summit or on the California side? Oh, it was on the California side. That they died? Yes. Does—let’s see—Pyramid Lake have any historical—? Do you know anything historical about Pyramid Lake? Oh, I don’t really know too much about it cause it's just been an Indian area for many, many UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 15 years. It’s an Indian reservation now. Did you know that there was a big war called the War of Pyramid Lake where the Indians decided they didn't want the white man in their area? It didn't do ‘em any good but— So what else is new? They didn't want the white man in their area in the first place. True. What's the lake around Hawthorne? Walker Lake. Walker Lake. Do you know anything about that? Does that have any historical background? Not really to my knowledge. I imagine it has considerable historic background but I'm not really that familiar with Walker Lake. Let me think, I can see right there to north of Walker Lake is the Indian reservation, all that neat valley going back up through there is an Indian reservation. (Unintelligible) it has to have considerable historic value with the proximaty of the desert, the big giant lakes and— Okay. Let's see. As far as Goldfield, Goldfield seems to be a fairly old town. It's got quite a few old buildings around it. Does it have a lot of mines? It looks like it does but you know I've never—. (Unintelligible) you have. (Laughs) As a matter of fact young lady, you've taken side trips numerous times when we've come back through that way, out through that back area around Goldfield and looked at the mines and the old buildings around there. Goldfield really isn’t an old place. Goldfield was, is a new place. Goldfield was the last boomtown in 1911 and it was, it was the last of the boomtowns. So the way that it happened with water transportation and such as the way things are now, the UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 16 boomtown aspect of things, with—about that time the trucks were being used to haul over so that you didn't have to have the, the smelting, the everything all in one location, and when they had the boomtowns (unintelligible) four days to get to Reno or something with the advent of trucks and decent roads, they didn’t have to have that kind of a situation. So then the mines (unintelligible) up at the Alamo is getting pretty populated because that mine up there. But it just, it just eliminated that boomtown thing. Do you know anything about the Comstock Lode? Since that was really the biggest mining project in Nevada. It still is. Do you know much about it? Well just, I’ve been there (unintelligible). Went through Virginia City and looked at the (unintelligible) except for the mines, I haven’t been in it. I know it was a quite successful silver operation. Tunnels underneath the whole town of Virginia City. That’s right, there is. Do you think that—of course, you know, their engineering wasn't that great back then just using the box style with timbers. Do you think any of those tunnels could start caving in in Virginia City? Well, depends on what was built, what those timbers (unintelligible). I imagine there's a pine, eventually those timbers are going to start rot away. Later either way, something's gonna give in, there’s gonna be some slack. Seems like a waste. They knew they were built under there, you’d think they would have planned this town a little bit better. Well I don’t think they really cared. They knew that the town wasn't gonna last because they essentially, everyone knew it was a boomtown. And they knew that wouldn’t, it wouldn’t continue on as it hasn't. There's only a few residents there now. And—although we make it more and more of a tourist attraction, we need something (unintelligible). The centers of population UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 17 that have moved to Carson City and Reno because of the farming and the industry (unintelligible). They didn’t need farming and industry up in the mountains in Virginia City. As far as some of the other little towns you've been to that they also be considered as boomtowns, have they died out also? Not all of them. Boomtowns that were built up where there was a farming adjacent to it haven’t died out completely. Like—? Pioche is a prime example. Pioche had died out from, considerably from what it was but it's still, it's a nice area and there’s farming around and cattle raising and things like that. Pioche and Caliente was there. They were boomtowns in one, in the respect that they, you know, found minerals in that area. And people congregated but they congregated where the water was. So that's where—and people have stayed because it’s a pretty nice area. I do know that up in Pioche there's a cave that has the mineral water dripping down that makes the stalactites and stalagmites. It's too bad that people go in there and break them off and take them off and when they get to a certain size. You know, do you know about any of the people that first settled in Nevada and how they came about to or how you think they came about to become a state and a territory? The Paiutes? Oh, the Paiute Indians were the first people to settle in Nevada. They didn't really settle though, did they? Weren't they nomads? They just kind of went from place to place. The Paiutes weren’t too much nomads. They kind of liked Southern Nevada. Well, what I mean by that— Nomad in the respect that they would move around because of game and that, but they stayed UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 18 (unintelligible). But they were nomads in that they had to, they had to be nomadic to pick the (unintelligible) time come. They had to hunt, get out of the mountains when the snows came. I think they had a pretty darn good life to be (unintelligible). Were they the only Indians that you know of around this area at first or? Well I think this was the Paiute's country. And up North? North? I, boy I don't know too many Indians in the north. If I’m not mistaken, the (unintelligible). No, the Paiutes pretty much have Nevada then the Navajos have, have Arizona and the Navajos and Apaches were very similar. Well guess I should look it up (unintelligible). And I believe Paiute was the— I think Paiutes were the only ones here then. And then— Across the Colorado River, there you had the, the Apaches in the mountains. That and northern Arizona, and Navajos were in southern Arizona and down through New Mexico kind of area. And then they had Comanche (unintelligible) up in the plains. The Navajo— How about, is the Washoe Indian? Washoe Indians? (Unintelligible) that's in the Washoe valley, over in that area. Mm-hmm. They came in there and decided that the Indians didn't need that anymore so we built a city there. Really? Reno seems to—well, as far as comparing Reno and Las Vegas, they don't, Las Vegas just seems to have more historical value. But I would guess that Reno would have more so because since everybody settled up there first that was the first— Oh Reno has a lot more historical—well, we can't say a lot more. Different types of historical. UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 19 We're familiar with Southern Nevada because we’ve grown and lived here for so many years, but Reno has got a, gosh they’ve got such a historic things. That’s where all the forty-niners went through that area to get into the gold fields. I mean, it just abounds with historical things around the Reno area. In the in the tunnel and all through the Sierras right there. That was it. That's where you went. That’s where the gold was. Do you know anything about the Old Spanish Trail? Well, I’ve ridden on it for a considerable number of miles. (Laughs) What would you like to know about it? I don’t—is there like stops along the way? I know that there was a major one in Las Vegas. Las Vegas was a stop. Las Vegas was a stop. Every, just about every day's travel. There's, you know, what that took to get a day or whatever, if there was water there was always stops. Do you know anything about the springs that used to be in Las Vegas? Where were they located? I don't really— You mean running water springs? The freshwater springs that were just— Well over there by the, where the water district is was a spring. You know where the water district is? Right beside the freeway, right down by the old house down (unintelligible). That was a spring, that was originally ran water outta there. And that's why Las Vegas was, was it was, that’s the same thing with Tule Springs. Did they— That was a real good water supply, and the water ran freely (unintelligible) Did they dry just be—did the well, artesian wells dry up or was it just so many people coming through and using it at the time? UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 20 No, the people could never have done it, it’s the people that are drilling (unintelligible). Everyone's doing. Las Vegas Valley Water Districts’ doing, whatever. Everyone who has a well is doing it. I don't know, I don't know that just people drinking from it that that’s particular spring would of dried up ever. And dried it up for the, you know the Indians, whatever for that many years have drank. As far as Tulle Springs, Tulle Springs they've kind of turned it into a recreational thing out there but really what was—it was the Adobe houses out there? Is that, would you refer to as the old ranch? Well, that's what I think the, the question has to come to mind for me to be the Old Ranch because that Tulle Springs, the adobes there are the old buildings that are still partially intact. And that was the watering place where you came from, from almost anywhere into this valley. That was the watering place because there was abundance of water. That's where the stagecoach came through then? Right. The stagecoach came through there and stopped (unintelligible). Is there any old stagecoach buildings in Nevada that you know of that you've been to that are still halfway intact? Stagecoach buildings? You know, the stops. Well, I'll tell you the stage stops out in the, out in the wilderness I've been to some that are still standing. It was quite interesting. As matter of fact, the one I'm thinking of was (unintelligible) to on the side of the mountain with, built out of huge tempers and dirt covered on the top and it was built back into the mountain. It was quite a large mountain and essentially what it was—the stage stop, a family lived there and they fixed meals for the passengers on the stage and watered the UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 21 horses and they just went on their way. Where was this located? Oh, that's up in Gold Point, the mountains. Where’s Gold Point? I don't— Gold Point is about forty miles south west of Goldfield. I don’t even know where that is, I really don’t. I can’t even think. When you come down the (unintelligible) highway and you know where the Cottontail Ranch is? (Laughs) Yes. Well that's the road to turn so then you go out that way. And then you to Gold Point you go out through that valley and you go—no off that highway, off the highway Goldfield, you go off that road, oh gosh fifteen or something miles. And then you go off to the right again. And it's like right at the base of the mountains across the valley. That—there's a ghost town I believe in Beatty. What's that? Was that a—? (Unintelligible) Was that a Boomtown too that just—? (Unintelligible) Boy, that was a giant boomtown. That was the one just before Goldfield, or well actually it was still going with Goldfield. It’s died out completely now isn’t it? Well there’s a few people that live there but not very many, I think four or five people so. There’s two sisters who own a store, general store kind of thing out there, two old white sisters. At least the last time I was out there. And just a few people live out there. The—when you find a mine, there's always a shack. Is there—have you ever found maybe books or any logs or anything like that? UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 22 Oh sure. What? Did they have anything interesting in them? Or like what kind of things would they like, would they write? Oh for just things like that, but I found, I've never found a diary or anything like that. But I never found like that, it was just loading tables. How much went out, that sorta thing. Was it how—? Old magazines and things like that. Were the quantities of the loads that they were pulling out quite a bit? Well, I don't, I don't know in relationship to what you know. I mean, not being a miner by trade I don’t know, they’re just numbers to me. And mostly—I've seen it two or three times as a matter of fact, I just, like I said it’s just numbers to me. What kind of magazines did they—? Oh, just all kinds of magazines I found. Concerning mining or? Oh no. Just women’s magazines and (laughs). Dating back to when? How—? Oh about the oldest one’s I've ever found was in the 20s. Nineteen twenty? Yes. That's pretty old. (Unintelligible) Where? Oh up there. (Unintelligible) we found a, your mother and I found (unintelligible) all full of UNLV University Libraries William Lee McLeod 23 Sears Roebuck catalog (unintelligible). As far as, what is it Calico? The— Calico ghost town? Yes. I’ve never been there. Is that in Las, is that in Nevada or is it in California? No, it’s in California. Oh. But I suppose it was a boomtown too of sorts? Well no, it wasn’t really a boomtown. It was just a mine and a few mine shacks around. What they, they've—there were a few mine shacks there and everything but they’ve bought old buildings and tore down old buildings and put a bunch of (unintelligible). But in all the times that I've been there, which it has to be a hundred if it's been one down that highway, I've never went over to see that (unintelligible). Mm-hmm. They say that they took the buildings from the Western Chemical Company on the other side of the Pepco Plant and