Transcript of interview with Oscar Goodman by Claytee D. White November 10, 2014

AN INTERVIEW WITH OSCAR GOODMAN An Oral History Conducted by Claytee D. White Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ?Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV ? University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes, Amanda Hammar iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader?s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas iv PREFACE Oscar Baylin Goodman (1939- ) is the former mayor of the city of Las Vegas, Nevada, serving 12 years until 2011, when he swore in his wife of over 50 years, Carolyn Goodman. Oscar Goodman is the official ambassador of Las Vegas, and the chairman of the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority (LVCVA) Host Committee. He is also known as one of the best criminal defense attorneys in the United States, and spent 35 years defending alleged Mob figures such as Meyer Lansky, Frank Rosenthal, and Anthony Spilotro. Goodman is the primary visionary and a member of the board of directors of The Mob Museum in downtown Las Vegas, which opened in 2012. Goodman was born June 26, 1939 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He earned his undergraduate degree from Haverford College in 1961 and his law degree from the University of Pennsylvania Law School in 1964. That same year he moved to Las Vegas and in 1965 he was admitted to the Nevada State Bar. He served as Clark County?s chief deputy public defender from 1966 to 1967. Goodman was elected as mayor of Las Vegas for the first time in 1999. During his three terms (the legal limit), he contributed to the economic and cultural development of the downtown area by supporting projects such as the arts district and Union Park, a high-rise residential and business project he helped to secure 61 acres of land for. He helped to begin what he called the ?Manhattanization? of downtown, which included the construction of taller buildings for better use of the area?s prime real estate. In this interview, Goodman discusses the role of Judaism in his life, from childhood to adulthood to parenting his own four children. He touches on his involvement with Temple Beth Sholom, including serving as its president, as well as in local development projects like the Lou Ruvo Cleveland Clinic Brain Health Center, Smith Center for the Performing Arts, and Mob Museum. In addition, Goodman discusses the impact of Jewish residents on the city and its development, and mentions leaders in the gaming industry, legal profession and in politics. v TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Oscar Goodman On November 10, 2014 by Claytee D. White in Las Vegas, Nevada Preface?????????????????????????????????..?..iv Reflects upon the role of Judaism growing up, as well as an adult and in parenting his four children. Shares about children?s bar mitzvahs, including FBI at daughter?s bat mitzvah; attending High Holidays at Temple Beth Sholom with family; wife, Carolyn?s, relationship with Judaism. Talks about Temple Beth Sholom, how it?s organized, funded???????????..??...?1-7 Considers the impact of Jewish people on city?s history. Names Jewish leaders in gaming industry, including Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, Jerry Zarowitz, Jay Sarno, Nate Jacobson, Steve Wynn; legal profession, including Louie Wiener, Judges Milton Batt and Mike Cherry; politics, including Shelley Berkley, Carolyn Goodman. Thoughts on how technology has negatively impacted how generations interact. More about contributions of Jewish Las Vegas residents, including Adelson family, Molasky family, Al Levy????????????????????????8-10 Talks about local communities family has lived, including the Palms Apartment on East Sahara, Viking and Eastern, then Scotch 80 area; differences in his childhood and raising children in Las Vegas, with Carolyn. Discusses Las Vegas entertainment scene; his role in assisting others develop projects, like Lou Ruvo Cleveland Clinic, Smith Center, Mob Museum????...11-18 Discusses involvement with local and national organizations, including National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, Criminal Defense Bar, American Red Cross; being Las Vegas mayor, as well as Mason and Shriner. Shares why stop practicing law; children?s professions. Talks about work with Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority???????.???????19-21 Compares experience as a Jew during his youth to his experiences as adult; his family history, emigrating from Eastern Europe to United States. More about the meaning of Judaism in his upbringing; local Jewish community and clergy. Discusses goals as mayor: cultivating arts and culture; supporting quality medical care; and bringing professional sports to city; hope for UNLV to become top tier university..........................................??????????????..22-31 vi 1 It is November 10, 2014. I'm with Mr. Oscar Goodman in his office here in Las Vegas and we're talking about the zip line that's at the Fremont Street Experience. Right. And my wife is apparently going to be in a contest with Robin Leach. And I think the loser?and I'm not sure what the standard is?but the loser has to give a fairly substantial amount of money to the other's favorite charity. And they asked for me to get into this contest and I didn't even politely reject it. I said, ?No way.? But now, have you been on a zip line before? I wouldn't think of being on a zip line. I mean, I think that I have enough of a thrill just getting up in the morning and going for a cup of coffee. Fantastic. As you probably have heard, we're doing a special project over at UNLV and it's a Jewish heritage project and it takes off really after World War II. We know that you and Carolyn came here well after that point. But tell me about religion in your family growing up. Oh, religion in my family was very important when I was growing up as a youngster. I had a great deal of love and admiration for my father, who had an equal amount of love and admiration for his father. In those days, you were guided by the feeling that you wanted to make your parents proud. You wanted to show them that you were accepting their ideals. So basically, it was like a little dog following a big dog around. That's how I first became involved with religion; I would follow my dad and his dad. Then I went to religious school, I think three days a week including Sunday morning. And then I had my bar mitzvah when I was thirteen and that was a big deal in those days. It really was. That was the beginning of manhood, as far as the religion was concerned. And I still have pictures 2 of myself at a beautiful party that my dad gave. He was very, very proud. I'm smoking a cigar at thirteen years of age. I have since switched cigars for martinis, but the vices have stayed with me over the years. When I met Carolyn?she really did not come from a religious background. She saw that my family, we were conservative in our approach to the religion. And she realized that in order to make me happy that she would adjust. She's a wonderful Jewish cook. She goes to the High Holidays with me. She participates actively in Jewish affairs. At one point in time I think she was the president of the Women's Federation. I was the president of Temple Beth Sholom for two years, I believe. Believe me, it was easier being a mayor and easier representing the mob than being the president of a Jewish temple. Everybody who belonged there thought they were my boss. But I thought it was a good experience. With our children, we raised them very religiously in the sense that they followed us along to the synagogue or to the temple and they participated in the services. My youngest son, he would dismiss himself from the group and go outside, and he would take the little caps off tires that were in the parking lot with a couple of his friends and then return for the remainder of the service. We took all of our children, all three boys over to Israel, and we had them bar mitzvahed at the Western Wall. The one who was playing with the caps, he really acquitted himself well because there was another young fellow from Las Vegas who froze and he wasn't able to do his part and my son continued on; he finished his part and then did the other young man's part. And that flabbergasted us because we never knew that he was paying attention at all. But the other two boys were bar mitzvahed there. My daughter was bat mitzvahed here in Las Vegas and we had a wonderful party with senators and judges and mobsters up at Mount Charleston. And the FBI was at the bottom of the hill and they were taking down license numbers 3 of every car that was going up there to her party. True story. And a couple of people who were invited who were heading up there, they saw the FBI and they turned around and went home. True story. Oh, this is amazing. But they're true stories. So now, are you going to write a book that is different from the books about you? I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing right now. Tomorrow I have a very interesting meeting. There's a Broadway producer who's coming into town with a writer that he turned the book over to and they're going to tell me whether or not they think it's worthy of a Broadway production. I don't believe they would be coming here unless it was going to be some positive news. So they're going to give me, I imagine, the outline that they've been working on and that could be my next project. Oh, this is fabulous. It could be fun. Your life is? It's the best. Right. I got the best life. I'm the most happily married person that I know. I know when people say that, you probably think they're protesting too much. But I love Carolyn more today than I did fifty-two years ago. I love all my children. I love my grandchildren. I love the spouses of my children. I love betting on ball games. I love drinking gin. I love everything. There's not a bad thing in my life. It's true. It's a good aura. And she's the same way. Carolyn's the same way. I think she loves everything in life. We sort of treated ourselves this past weekend. We went down to Coronado. The weather was 4 absolutely gorgeous. And the two of us basically, even being as old as I am, we would walk down the beach holding hands. It was very nice. I love it. I want to meet somebody like you. And when I grow up I want to be like me. [Laughing] And now to learn about the spiritual, the religious parts of your life, nobody is going to believe this. No, they won't because they equate the representation of, quote, bad people and unpopular, end quote, with some evil and can't imagine somebody who was devout. I still keep the dietary laws myself. I don't insist that anybody else around me. Some of my children do; some don't. But I don't eat pork or shellfish. I don't mix milk and meat. That's basically the bottom line. There was a documentary made about me called ?Mob Law.? The most significant thing about that was, I thought, when Carolyn and myself on the Jewish High Holidays would go to the temple, we would walk. We would walk from the Scotch 80 area down to 17th and Oakey where the temple was. Yes, it was about a three-mile walk. On the High Holiday, where you had to fast, my children would join us on that walk. People would honk their horn and wave at us. But the children, some of them, even though it was a fast day, they stopped off at the Winchell's and had a doughnut because they were so exhausted. So explain to me as if I don't know anything about the High Holidays. Tell me what those are and tell me about Temple Beth Sholom because you're talking about the first? When we got here, which was in 1964, there really was only one temple and that was Temple Beth Sholom. It was located at 17th and Oakey. People from all over the city?and I think there were about eighty thousand Jewish folks who lived here at the time; maybe that's high. And many of them were not affiliated with any kind of temple. But those who were really had little choice and 5 they went to Beth Sholom. Carolyn and myself would go there. We would walk there on the High Holidays, which are basically?and I'm saying this simplistically?Rosh Hashanah, which is the Jewish New Year's, and Yom Kippur, which is the Day of Atonement, and they're separated by ten days and during those ten days you are either inscribed in the Book of Life for the coming year or you're not. And there's an interesting phenomena. Jewish people, if they're ill, they seem to live right up until the Day of Atonement and thereafter they pass away. It may not be scientific, but anecdotally, I think I could probably prove it. We would enjoy the services there. Carolyn was basically three-day-a-year Jewish. But if there were bar mitzvahs or weddings where Jewish people were involved, she certainly attended all of those. And she kept a, quote, kosher, end quote, household for us where there was no pork products, no shellfish products. That rubs off on your children and they do the same thing. All three of my boys married girls who were Catholic and they all converted to Judaism. Interestingly, because they made that commitment?which it's one thing being born into it; it's another thing choosing it?they're probably better Jews than we are. They follow it, they're active in the temple, and they're raising their children the same way, which is very nice because it's wholesome and it's healthy and it's expansive. You learn how to speak Hebrew. You learn how to read Hebrew. You learn about the Old Testament. I mean these are things that stay with you forever. The ethical part of it, of course, is something you have to be a little older to get into that. But basically some of the great philosophers of all time talked about Jewish principles. Of course, Jesus was Jewish and people tend to forget that these days. Tell me about the temple, Beth Sholom. And when you say you were president, what does 6 that mean? How is it organized? Well, basically it's like a board of directors and there's a group of officers who are elected by the congregation. I guess, the most important responsibility is to attend the services on Friday night and sit up there on what we call the bima, which is the stage [raised platform], and Saturday morning and make pleas, of course. Unlike many religions that collect their money on a weekly basis with a tithing, the Jews don't do that. Basically we're asked once a year to buy tickets for the High Holidays and to make a commitment to a capital fund for a temple or a charitable fund of one of the activities there. But it's a once-a-year thing and that causes a lot of problems to a lot of Jewish people because it is not inexpensive as far as the tickets are concerned and they feel that to charge to go to temple is somehow unseemly. But the bottom line really is that if they went to First Baptist church, they would be passing around that box or whatever for contributions on a weekly basis and it probably comes out the same. Yes, because it's supposed to be 10 percent of your gross. Well, that's it, yes. Is it 10 percent for the tickets, approximately? No. No. They have what's called the Kol Nidre Appeal. On Yom Kippur, the president of the temple gets up and the president says that the congregation should donate whatever they could afford to keep the temple going. I mean the rabbi has to get paid. The cantor, who is the vocalist, he has to get paid. The staff has to get paid. The teachers have to get paid. And sometimes you get the feeling that those who attend really don't take that into consideration. One of the things that's very important is what we call the Yizkor service, which takes place on Yom Kippur; it's usually about noontime. It's to remember the dead. So that's when you say your prayers; if your dad or your mom passed away, you say your prayers at that time. During that 7 period of time the temple is full because people come there particularly to honor the memory of their loved ones. Most of the temples, as soon as the Yizkor service is over, it empties out. They leave a couple of stragglers behind. But that's a beautiful part about our religion. Another thing that I think is a beautiful part of our religion because we really don't think in terms of the soul having a body that sort of floats up to heaven. The soul really is remembered by those who are living and that's how we honor our dead. And we have what's called a yahrtzeit. Yahrtzeit is the day that the parent or relative passed away, and we go to the temple on that day and we say prayers. The Kaddish is the main prayer where you thank God for giving us a bountiful life in the saddest of circumstances. I think these are important things. I think they show you the way. I feel sorry for those people who don't do it who have the opportunity of doing it. What does it mean to be inscribed in the Book of Life? That means that you've got a ticket to live another year. Ah. Yep. Great. I love this and I want to thank you. Well, it's my pleasure. There is a book that was written about the Jewish people in Nevada. I'm not impressed with the book at all. I didn't think it was very well done. I have been interviewed for it and I didn't care for the interview. I didn't care for the article. That's why I'm happy to be using my own words and my own thoughts because then people can say he's either all wet or the guy makes a little bit of sense. Great. Who are some of the most outstanding Jewish leaders in Las Vegas? It's amazing. For a minority group of people?and I think we're probably about five percent of the population?the impact and the influence of them has been remarkable particularly in the founding 8 of Las Vegas as we know it. They had all of the supposed gangsters. Meyer Lansky, who was the financial genius of the mob, purportedly had interest in Las Vegas casinos. Bugsy Siegel?you didn't call him Bugsy; you called him Benjamin Siegel to his face?he came up here and he opened up the Flamingo Hotel, which really was the first Las Vegas-style hotel as we know them today. There were a whole bunch of Jewish people who developed Caesars Palace. They had Jerry Zarowitz and Nate Jacobson and Jay Sarno. There was a great deal of influence in the gaming industry as far as Jewish people were concerned. In the medical profession, all you had to do was look around and an awful lot of Jewish doctors have practiced here in Las Vegas and have been leaders of the medical community. Lawyers, going back to Louie Wiener, who was a legend, he was a Jewish gentleman. If you go through the phone book and you look at the names, you'll see much more on a percentage basis of Jewish people being professionals. Judges, we had Milton Batt. He was a judge of the Nevada Supreme Court going all the way back. Now we have Mike Cherry. Politically, Shelley Berkley; my wife, Carolyn. These were influential people. And then coming to the present, I mean look at the casinos. Steve Wynn and all that he's done. Elaine Wynn with her contributions. We've had a remarkable impact on Las Vegas. How? Why? I think the same reason why today is why Asians are doing better in school. We were raised with an ethic of pleasing our parents and the parents were...it wasn't a situation of making us feel good; they wanted us to do the right thing. There's a big difference. I think in those days that was the kind of the background that these people came from. Even if they turned out to be criminals or mobsters or whatever, when they went home they behaved. There was a certain pride in pleasing your parents and a certain fear of displeasing your parents and I'm not sure it's there today. I'm not sure 9 it's there today. And I blame it on?not that this has anything to do with being Jewish, but I blame it on television. When I was raised we would come home. We'd meet my father who would take a trolley car. People don't even know what those are anymore. My sisters and myself would meet him at the corner and walk him to the house just about every day. We would go home and we would talk. We would sit down and talk and then we would do our homework. He would be very strict as far as that was concerned. But we were able to communicate. Now I think all people know how to do is move their thumb. They don't know how to talk. It almost reminds me of Herman Melville's Billy Budd where here was almost a perfect human being on the ship; and, yet, he had this speech impediment, which wouldn't allow him to get his emotions out, and because he couldn't express himself, he resorted to violence and his whole being collapsed. I don't have a follow-up. This is excellent. What are some of the major contributions of the Jewish residents in the city that we might not know about, not just Caesars Palace but...? Oh, well, of course, you have the Adelson family that developed the hospice and the Molasky family that built Sunrise Hospital. I mean these were important contributions early on and they weren't asking for any kind of recognition. They did it because it's the right thing to do and they did it because they would make money from it. There's nothing wrong with that. Al Levy, who was a city councilman's father, owned a market that everybody would go to on West Charleston. A fellow who owned the delicatessen over in Commercial Center, Jackie's. These were important people in their own way because they were almost the equivalent of psychologists because people would go in there. They'd have somebody to talk to. There wasn't this feeling of being alone or lonesomeness. That was the kind of personality that these people had and not just because they were Jewish, but because they were nice people; they were decent people and they made people feel at home. I think there's a tendency for people who are religious I think to be a little nicer than those 10 who aren't. And I will say this. I'll add an aside. I think this is pretty remarkable. As a lawyer I never had anybody make an anti-Jewish remark to me, which is an amazing thing, no matter who I was representing, which was incredible. As the mayor, I'll tell you the same thing. There was only one person who ever wrote a letter to me that had some kind of a religious slur to it, which I think is remarkable. I think this is a community that basically is very accepting and prejudice free. I know it may sound nuts, but I really mean that. I would go around the community, all the neighborhoods, knock on the door. I don't care whether somebody was black, white, green, purple, striped or not, they invited me in. They wanted to talk. They offered me cookies. They offered me milk. I said, ?I don't drink milk.? [Laughing] Don't you think it has a lot to do with you, though? Oh, I don't know. I don't know. People say it does, but I don't know. The best thing about being the mayor from my perspective is I made people happy. Yes, because you were always happy and you say it. I am. I'm happy. I don't pretend to be anything other than I am. And my wife will tell you I'm the say as when she met me. If my mother were alive, she would say he's the same as he was when he was three years old. I've always been outgoing. I've always enjoyed life. I've always had a good time. Nothing wrong with that. That's right. I agree. So in the other part of the interview we talked about the communities that you've lived in Las Vegas. Without telling any addresses or anything, recap some of that; where you've lived since you've been here. Well, when we moved from Philadelphia, Carolyn wanted us to live in a nice place because in Philadelphia we lived in a little apartment. I mean in our bedroom you had to open the door and 11 then you stepped on the bed because there was no place to move around it. You rolled out through the doorway because you couldn't walk anyplace. There were shootings there. It was a pretty rough neighborhood near the law school. And then we came out here and we went to what I considered to be a beautiful apartment complex in the day, the Palms Apartment at 713 East Sahara. It was a two-story apartment. It had a little patio in the front. It was like luxury for us. It was unbelievable. I think it was eighty-seven dollars a month, but it was like living like a king. Then we moved over to the area of Viking and Eastern and we had a beautiful acre and a quarter piece of property that I think I paid forty-seven thousand for and everybody said, ?You can't afford it.? I mean that's what's happened over the years. We loved that home. We fixed it up. That's basically where our children began to grow up. We used to spend our Sundays just driving around Las Vegas. We went over to the Scotch 80 area and there were some beautiful homes there. One home was owned by Ward Wingert, who was a banker in town. A lot of prominent people there. We weren't shopping, but we found the home where we're living now. We bought it in 1976. It's in the Scotch 80 area, just a tree-lined street, which is wonderful. A nice big backyard. I have my koi pond there with my fish and we've put a swimming pool in since that time. The home had been owned by the Cashman family and the Cashmans themselves lived on the other side of the fence. So it was a very nice home and it still is a nice home. It's a home; it's not a house. So the Cashman family...did anyone ever have horses on your property? Not on our property, but in the neighborhood there certainly were horses around there. We used to see them actually walking, being ridden down the street. Carolyn has wanted three things in life, from me. One she said, ?If we go out to Las Vegas??and she's from New York City; she never 12 saw a blade of grass in her life??If we move to Las Vegas, would you buy me a horse?? And I bought her a horse. The horse had won the Fortiori. I mean this was a racehorse that won the Fortiori in Salt Lake City. She would ride that horse all over the desert and it was a desert then. Where Vo-Tech is?I don't even know whether it's called Vo-Tech anymore?she would ride all the way out there by herself. It finally got to a point where she was thrown one day and came in all bruised. And I said, ?No, that's the end. You've got to be a mother; you can't be a cowgirl.? That was one thing. So I kept my promise there. The second was when I made a little bit of money, she said, ?Could I please have a Mercedes?? So I bought her a Mercedes. And she takes care of a car like nobody else. She keeps her car for fifteen years, just constantly taking it in to make sure it's as pretty fifteen years later as it was the day that I bought her. So I did two out of the three. I always do two out of the three. The third was she wanted me to introduce her to the Queen of England so she could courtesy to her. And for some reason, the queen has not returned my phone calls. [Laughing] But it's not too late. I don't know. I don't know. The queen has not returned my calls. I've talked to people who are consul generals. I've talked to people who were in parliament there and for some reason I can't get the queen to see my wife. I think it's going to happen, though. No. Karma says it has to happen. Yes. You talked about your children, raising children here, and you talked about how you were raised. Did you find that it was easy here in Las Vegas to raise your children in the same way? No, different, because it was just a different time. When I was raised we lived in a neighborhood, a 13 neighborhood not like you would say Scotch 80s is a neighborhood or this is a neighborhood or that's a neighborhood. This was a real neighborhood. I mean we were almost like urchins. It was a row house, one house after another all connected. We would actually go to the neighbor's and have cookies. My folks wouldn't allow a TV in our house while we were growing up. There was a fellow, Old Man Willard we called him, and he had the first TV on the block. It was a little Philco TV that had a magnifying glass over it. And he invited me over to watch the Jersey Joe Walcott-Rocky Marciano Heavyweight Championship Fight. And that was the first time that I ever had Coca-Cola. He actually made the Coca-Cola with the syrup and the seltzer water and that was my first Coke. This is the way I explain it. There's no other way to explain it. You would come home from school and go into your home. You would say, ?Hey, Mom.? And she'd say, ?Hi.? And that was the end of that conversation. You pick up your baseball glove and you go out on the sidewalk. All of a sudden, ten other guys join you there and you walk two blocks to a park and you play ball. And then you come home and you do your homework. You had a bicycle and you would drive all over the city on your little bicycle. We were very independent. We didn't think a thing when I went to high school; I mean it was a trek, but it was a good high school. I would walk a block, take a trolley car about ten blocks, take an elevated about forty blocks, take a subway about twenty blocks, and either walk or take a bus to get to the high school, and back the same way after a long day playing sports and everything and going to school because it was a good school and it was prestigious to go to that school. So we didn't even think twice about doing that. Now, today the kids would complain. What happened growing up here, because we did not have neighborhoods as we know them, Carolyn became a chauffeur and she drove the kids from place to place, drove them to the music 14 lessons, to the dance lessons, to the Sunday school lessons, to the Hebrew school lessons, to their friend's. If a parent wasn't willing to do that the kid was sort of stranded here. So I think it's a whole different environment. So even though they didn't come into the house and do the homework right away, you still, though, had a routine that was? Well, my dad?I may have mentioned it in the other interview. We had a basement, a cellar. It wasn't finished, but he had a blackboard down there with chalk and an eraser. We did our homework on the blackboard after dinner before we were able to put it down on a piece of paper to turn it in at school. Now, I don't know what parent cares that?and it's a matter of caring about your children when you make that kind of rule and you enforce it and you participate it in. So now, tell me what you did with your kids. Well, Carolyn would say I'm a good father and the kids would probably say I'm a good father, but truth of the matter is I was working all the time. From the time I got my law license I was running all over the country, representing my clients, preparing for court. So Carolyn was really the guiding light as far as raising the children. I would come home from, let's say, Omaha, or Miami where I was trying a case, and I'd meet Carolyn and we'd go out to dinner, usually a piece of pizza. Then I would get up real early because I was on a different timetable than everybody else and go down to my law office and catch up with the phone calls and the messages and everything and then I would go home. Saturday was the children's day. So whatever activities they had, I went along and I watched them and tried to support them. I think they may have appreciated it; maybe not. I'm the one who missed a lot of the fun; they didn't because Carolyn was a very, very guiding parent. And then Saturday night the whole family went out. It's interesting. This weekend we went to a restaurant and there was a little child who was 15 making a lot of noise and crying. And Carolyn says, ?That's not right.