Interview with Leslie Ray Hill, February 17, 2006

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with Leslie R. Hill February 17, 2006 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Mary Palevsky © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Leslie R. Hill February 17, 2006 Conducted by Mary Palevsky Table of Contents Introduction: childhood on farm in Ithaca, NY, education at Union College and Princeton University, early research, interview with Sandia National Laboratories 1 Takes position as engineer with Sandia ( 1967), talks about work in experiment protection and containment and mathematical calculations involved 9 Origin of FEWOG and recognition of Sandia as a contributing partner in the field of experiment protection and containment 16 Discusses cavity collapse parameter studies for the NTS, and the continuing problem of material properties 18 Talks about relationship with and support from code developers at the labs 19 Observations of Gas Buggy, Cypress, and Camphor 20 Discusses containment failures of Baneberry and Camphor 21 Talks about containment preparations for Cannikin 24 Discusses reorganization within AEC and the labs, creation of FTAC at Sandia, and his work with FTAC 29 Talks about beryllium work and illness ( MS) contracted while at INEL 30 Recollects first work done after contracting MS 34 Talks about Sandia program in geophysical engineering, and his work as technical director with WIPP developing FAC 35 Testing FAC on Diamond Ace, Midnight Zephyr, and Diamond Beech 37 Discusses work as technical director on Diamond Fortune 39 Talks about concept of RNET ( reusable nuclear effects test) 41 Explains Sandia’s position as a third party in testing, talks about use of CONVEX in Diamond Fortune 42 Conclusion: National Academy of Sciences award for work on Diamond Fortune 43 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Leslie R. Hill February 17, 2006 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Mary Palevsky [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Mary Palevsky: Les Hill, thank you very much for meeting with me today, and we were just saying off [ the] recording that you would like to start by talking a little bit about your childhood and high school days and how that related to how you came to be working at Sandia [ National Laboratories]. So why don’t we start there and then see where we get to. Leslie R. Hill: Thank you Mary for the opportunity to talk about my life at the [ Nevada] test site. Thinking back to day one, I grew up on a farm outside Ithaca, New York. It had a giant sand box. It’s actually the end of a glacier run that created Cayuga Lake. And there is geological moraine behind our house and as I say, there’s a giant sand box about three- quarters of a mile long. The county, the state would come to get sand there. It’s a beautiful area. We’d have sand standing thirty feet in the air when it was mined, and then as it dried out, of course, it was very dangerous to be in this area. My parents wanted me to get off the farm and go to college. And, well, during high school I met a gal, this neighbor gal, and she was the secretary at the Student Council, I was President of the Student Council at a little country school. She was a cheerleader, I was a basketball player; she was a natural- born singer— in fact, when we fell in love and decided that this was something. I didn’t worry about being an engineer because if I failed, she could make it for us. In any case, I was encouraged to go to college. My parents wanted me to get off the farm. As a matter of fact, they quit farming when I left for college. I always wondered if that was a dirty Communist plot, to get off the farm. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 I was valedictorian of this little old high school and as such, was supposed to speak for the class— well, the advisor called me up on graduation day and said, What are you going to talk about? I told her, I really hadn’t thought about much. I think I’ll talk about [ Robert] Frost’s “ The Road Not Taken.” She was a little beside herself that I had not prepared a valedictorian speech. But I talked about Frost’s “ The Road Not Taken” and tried to encourage my colleagues of about two dozen that they had an opportunity to take the road not taken, which I continued to do. My dad had worked at Cornell University as a carpenter, and there was a lot of pressure for me to go to Cornell. I didn’t want to go to Cornell. I was an only child. Because I had about— this was not a thing I had decided to talk about— I had eleven boy cousins who wanted me to buy beer, I’m sure, because they all were younger and lived around Cornell, so that was another reason not to go to Cornell. In fact, I won an NSPE, National Society of Professional Engineers scholarship that was fantastic, with Armco Steel as the financial sponsor. Now that you’ve asked, Mary, I’ll say they had four scholarships, one for the East Coast, one for the West Coast, one for the Mideast, and the Midwest. I won the East Coast scholarship. It paid tuition, fees, and books. It was fantastic. And it did not suggest that you must go to this college or that college, but you must be a civil engineer. Having grown up on a farm and had that sand pile and all kinds of things like that, a civil engineer sounded, hey, the thing to do. So I went looking for a college, with this tremendous pocketbook. I elected to go to a very small, unheard- of men’s school, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, but I had the gal who was following me and we were going to— it worked out, I’ll just say, she’s still my wife and best friend. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 And what is her name again? Elaine? Elaine. Right. That’s right. What year did you graduate from high school? Nineteen fifty- nine, a year or two after the end of atmospheric testing. In any case, the Kennedy years. The scholarship was very good. It was a surprise to me. Our school was exceptional because we were close to Cornell and spouses of Cornellians were often our teachers, so we had an exceptional public school, really very good. I selected Union [ College] because I met a professor there who said, Hey, you don’t know if you want to be a civil engineer? What do you want to do? And I said, I’d like to take more math. And if I had not [ messed around], with a number of fraternity brothers, I remember we had five guys, four of us would go play golf and one guy would go to labs in the afternoon. In any case, Professor [ Gilbert] Harlow took great interest in my future; a little concerned that I had planned to get married and leave school after I graduated and not go to graduate school. He said he’d call universities if I were interested in going and, you know, “ never say never,” “ the [ 00: 05: 00] road not taken.” He called a number of schools, his Harvard and places back in Boston. It was too late. He called Princeton, Cornell, Cal Tech. It turned out Princeton and Cal Tech had the exact same problem: will a person be able to walk on the moon? And I visited Princeton and I saw a setup there and I said, hey, I could do the research before school starts. Well, it didn’t work out that way; it wasn’t that easy. But I selected Princeton. It turns out the financial aid between Cal Tech and Princeton was almost identical. The disadvantage of Cal Tech, in 1961 I worked for the Forest Service with nine other fraternity brothers, we went out to California to find out what these California girls looked like anyways and it turns out we all came back east and married our gals after our trip. But we had a great UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 time. I did meet some guys, working for the Forest Service, who lived near Cal Tech and I figured, well, that’s sure a way to flunk out of Cal Tech. I’ll take Princeton. And it turns out my wife- to- be could transfer to New Jersey easily. I saw this experiment for, “ will a person be able to walk on the moon?” that I thought I could really do, it was tractable that I’ll go there. So the college is Union College, is that right? Union College, Schenectady, New York. In Schenectady. OK. It was an all- men’s school. And now their tuition, would you believe, it was in some magazine I saw; fifty thousand [ dollars] a year. And NSPE scholarships, they’ve discontinued that program. They’re sponsoring MATHCOUNTS now in schools, taking a very good approach, I think, because they’re meeting more people, affecting more students, because at that day they were encouraging maybe just four people, you know, East Coast, West Coast, Mideast, Midwest. So I think what we’re doing now, and I’m very involved with MATHCOUNTS in Albuquerque, sort of paying back. [ Largely for coordinating that effort for about 10 years, I was elected Professional Engineer of the Year 2005 for the state of New Mexico.] In any case, I saw this situation in Princeton and decided I’d do it, and did the research for a person walking on the moon. That worked out well and I was encouraged to take the Ph. D. qualifying exam. That’s a story in itself, too— but I won’t go into it here— I did finish a thesis. Originally it was nineteen pages long and my advisor, Professor [ Ahmet S.] Cakmak wanted me to do some confirmatory experiments. It was a three- dimensional problem. I didn’t quite know how to do that. It’s sort of like things at the [ Nevada] test site, didn’t know how to do three- dimensional things, calculational things. And this experiment, the only thing I could figure out, was trying stress- freezing photoelasticity. It was a technique that had never been at Princeton UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 before. One of my professors grabbed a hold of it, in fact, eventually published a series of articles in Scientific American. Well, he was on PBS, too, on Public Broadcasting; after McNeil- Lehrer’s programs he was often on, driving through Italy in a right- hand drive, open- air MG or something like that. He was studying flying buttresses of Italy and France. What was his name? Bob Mark. He was not my primary advisor, but he was— well, he had— because I went to him, he was in architecture as well as civil engineering, and said, I need a large oven so I can do this photo elastic experiment. He had one in the architecture building and I gained access to the architecture building, you know, morning, noon, and night to check on this stress- freezing experiment. It worked out well and it published well, and then, as I say, he picked up that technique and was on PBS quite a bit. In any case, I was trying to figure out where to go. There was a lot of pressure for me to go to Grumman [ Aircraft Engineering Corp.] at that time because the vice- president of Grumman was a Princetonian. So I was making interesting trips to Bethpage, Long Island, and was sort of like a consultant with them because they were building the LEM: lunar excursion module. I’ve done that research on the master’s [ degree] and there was interest in going there. However, having been out west, and going through the winter, like the winter just now back there, I was ready to get out, ready to leave the farm, so to speak. Once I’ve left, I’m going to really jump and go west. So we were really interested in going west, and Sandia was interviewing at Princeton. I went to the Sandia interview, met Frank Bell, who is no longer alive. He had been with the World Bank, quite a prestigious position he had, and he decided to get out. His wife was, I think, [ 00: 10: 00] asthmatic or something and he wanted to come to the Southwest, came to Sandia, and UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 was now interviewing at Princeton. He was sort of interested in my background, and I remember we were in McCosh which is a building there, it had an elevated balcony and he went running around the balcony and picked up Tom Cook and brought him back to complete the interview. Tom Cook said he was interested in a math- oriented civil engineer because he was interested in containment studies. The prospect of data that we [ Sandia] can calculate with whatever containment studies we have, that we’d have real live field data to compare with; it sounded very interesting— he did not have that capability at Sandia. Tom wanted to create a capability. We do have some data, can you get that data that you come up with to agree with the field information we have? So it was a very interesting prospect. And I guess I was so interested that I didn’t really pursue much else, because I had Grumman in the hip pocket, and what else do I want to do? Other things I had looked at, teaching at undergraduate school and things like that just did not interest me. Sandia, being an engineering organization, as it was, really did interest me. And so those were the prospects. We’d take a look at Sandia first and see what happens. And, well, Lockheed was there, too, now that I think of it. Well, by telephone I met a whole lot of Sandians. I called up one day and I said, Gee, I can’t tell who are the actors here. So I figured out that Tom Cook was there, and Norris Rose who worked for Tom Cook, and found out, you know, and Andy [ Andrew] Fuller, the personnel fellow, put this all in perspective, and his secretary was just great and straightened me out. So I ended up working with the personnel people a great deal, ended up recruiting for Sandia. I recollect three dozen that I have recruited— about two dozen from Princeton. Now what year did you graduate so you’re doing all these things? I finished my Ph. D. in 1967, and came to Sandia in ’ 67. In fact, that’s an interesting story, all of it, coming back. I had met Tom Cook, and for my interview, Mel Merritt was my host. And I’m UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 talking to a relatively small group of individuals that I thought in a seminar that they asked me to give would be packed, and there was only like six people there. I said, golly, I wonder if they’re interested. And then my host fell asleep. And I said, uh oh, I’ve lost this. I’ve lost it because this is pretty boring mathematics and my host is asleep. So I was on the board and I said, well, I couldn’t solve the problem in the first place, that I had to use a series approach. Mel’s hand went up, and he said, How many terms did you have to use? And I said, Only a couple, it converged very quickly. He said, I agree with you, it should converge very quickly. So he was not asleep. I was very impressed that he was awake and interested and alert. But seriously, Chebyshev polynomials. It was pretty deep mathematics and he was following me all the way. I couldn’t believe it. So there was a one- and- a- half- day interview planned, and it went to two days because Jerry Kennedy and some other people took me around to see some of the field things in Sandia’s Area 3 and 5, and so we had quite a tour. Princeton said don’t worry about leaving Albuquerque, that there should be no problems. As it turns out I had brought my wife along because for her it was quite a step to be going to the desert and everything and she was a little concerned about it. Oh, OK, so let me understand. This is all taking place, this seminar that you gave is taking place where? In Albuquerque. In Albuquerque. And then you went up to the test site? Just very quickly. My wife did come with me to Albuquerque. As I say, it was a very big step for her, and so I wanted her to see, too, as she was part of the vote. We did marry before we went to Princeton, and so we’d been married now four years. We were married in ’ 63, and so it’s four UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 years and it was a big step because we were both leaving the farm, and as I said originally, I think, that she was off a neighboring farm, so it was a big step for us. It’s sort of interesting, a one- and- a- half- day interview turned into a two- very- full- day interview. She had checked out while I was in this interview, got back to the hotel about [ 00: 15: 00] six o’clock in the evening, and the only flight she could find was two in the morning, so we had eight hours to kill. So we obtained a snack somewhere. This is the White Winrock which is a hotel which is now going down in Albuquerque. It was a Winthrop Rockefeller connection some time ago. In any case, we went to a movie. They were showing Hombre, and for us— they didn’t need a screen. They could just project it up there on the Sandia Mountains because you know, we enjoyed it. So we were very relaxed, we had a, you know, just relaxed, just enjoying the movie, and there’s some noise behind us, off- color jokes, and so we’re laughing at this group behind us. And on the way out of the movie, I looked at the guy and said, Is that you, Vaughn? It turns out, it was one of my fraternity brothers, and so those guys, the other guy, Joe Paone in particular, took us to Ned’s. We sat in Ned’s, drank a little bit, and they delivered us to a plane at two o’clock in the morning. Ended up not having to get a cab and had a great time. By the way— this is on the side, Mary, I never thought to mention it— on the plane back, because that was a long day and then seeing these guys after the movie, it was a long night at Ned’s, I don’t know if I fell asleep first, maybe I did, and then Elaine fell asleep on top of me. The stewardess came back and she said, I can’t believe you two slept the way you did in that position. The people across the aisle from you were so noisy and you were sleeping so soundly, I didn’t want to wake you up. And so we slept all the way to Chicago. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 When we returned to Princeton, I told my advisor what I found, that if this works out, I’m going to get moving. We arrived in Albuquerque in October of ’ 67; and I called Mel Merritt up and told him, I’m here. And he said, Come on in and sign in. It’s Friday. If you come in Friday the 13th— And 13 is lucky for me, a number of times it’s been lucky, so I [ said], It’s all right with me. And he said, For a half- a- day’s work, you get two days of vacation. I said, That’s a good deal, Mel. I’ll be right there. And I met Mel on Friday afternoon, the 13th, and he said, Hey, let’s go to the [ Nevada] test site on Monday morning. So we immediately went to the test site Monday morning and I saw— How did you get there? We flew. I don’t remember if we went AEC [ U. S. Atomic Energy Commission] charter or commercial. But I do remember seeing the lights of the Strip still on and it’s getting daylight and I said, boy, this is something that I’ll probably see again and again; and I did, you know, those early mornings to the Nevada Test Site. Right. So you flew to the test site? No, we flew to Las Vegas, rented a car, and went to Mercury. Now just to be clear, had you gone for your interview? Had you been up there or no? No. OK, so this is the first time. That’s right. My interview was all in Albuquerque, and the first day it was in our Building 806, where I met the science people: Wendell [ Weart], Bob Bass, Carter Broyles, Larry Bertholf, and UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 then had lunch with Byron Murphy and I can’t remember if it was Howard Viney or someone, and Jerry Kennedy took me the second afternoon— I don’t know if Kennedy took me the second afternoon— I know he took me in Sandia’s Area 3 and 5 and we had a good time and enjoyed it. It was very interesting. And on the interview trip, Sandia did a very nice thing for me, because I had told them I was bringing my wife, they allowed us to have a rental car. We came on Saturday, and so Saturday and Sunday we had a rental car; we drove around northern New Mexico and saw things like that, so it was really nice. Yes. Beautiful. So you get out to the test site, to Mercury? Yes, Mel Merritt and I did, and just had a great time from the standpoint that we saw the CP [ control point], Sedan, collapsed craters, N Tunnel, G Tunnel, where they were preparing for Cypress, and it was just a long day of seeing those things; it was a mind- boggling, long day. So the work for me was, however, initially to try to create a calculational capability for what was going on out there. They wanted to understand better some things that go on, you know. Number one was, well, we create a cavity, when does the cavity collapse? Nobody knows. We have a line- of- sight pipe, we have flow down a line- of- sight pipe, we want to close off that [ 00: 20: 00] pipe with ground shock, how do we do that? And do we understand the data we have? So that was my job, number one, the flow down the pipes, that we want to protect the experiments, number one, and contain the event as much as we can, number two. And I should really say containment is number one. But they were always pushing each other, experiment protection and containment, the same problem, we would do it each day. In any case, my work at first was in Albuquerque. I remember Bob Bass spent hours with me, and days. Initially I shared an office with Wendell Weart, and as I told you when we were walking here, Mary, that Mel Merritt recognized the two of us were always making noise and no UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 one’s getting anything done, better separate us. So I had an office, and it was sort of an empty office with an extra desk, and Bob Bass would come in that office. Very tall, he’s six- four or six- five, and instead of sitting down in a chair as we are, it was too much for him, he’d sit on the desk, lean up against the desk where he could reach the board. He taught me shock physics, from the standpoint there’s not a university in the world, I think, that taught it, at least I did not know one at that time. We used to discuss, hey, this is material no one can get, and it was just interesting. He spent so many hours with me, I couldn’t believe it, but what a commitment he made. It was just wonderful. And I, through the years, ended up using him as a mentor and counselor as well as talking about data that he had collected. He had been at Sandia a number of years before me and had done a lot of things. His teaching me shock physics was incredible, it really was. It was quite clear that the calculations that we needed to do were very demanding, and we were going to have to use computer codes. Sandia had Lagrangian computer codes in which the grid moved with what was going on, and the grid easily distorted, so a two- dimensional calculation was virtually impossible. I found that very quickly and put a triangular zone right at the origin, and that allowed a calculation that was actually a model cratering calculation to run. And in fact it ran all night long. I remember the guy from the computer annex called me up at home and said, Hey, this is still running. What do you want me to do with it? I said, Well, take a data dump and let it go, and I’ll be in there. I can’t remember when we shut it down. He wanted the system probably because it was eight o’clock Monday morning. And I did one- dimensional calculations, first with Dirk Dahlgren, because of just learning how to— it was all new, you know, shock physics, the codes, and everything. We did an atmospheric calculation, one- dimensional because no ground involved, no containment involved. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 This is a real easy calculation and it worked well and we could see comparison with data, it looked very good at later times. And Dirk said, Let’s play something here, you know, there’s a certain amount of energy in this program, and I’ve never done this. In fact I may see him later today, to allude to this, that we turned the velocities that were going out from this atmospheric explosion, turned them around. Instead of positive velocities, plus Vs, we made them minus Vs because you’re still conserving energy because of velocity squared for energy. So let’s implode this a little bit and see what happens. Well, it imploded a little bit and it just bounced and went right back up; maybe twice that time period, the data, you couldn’t tell the difference. It was interesting: energy was conserved, and that was just something to remember. As long as you have the right energy in the problem, most likely, you’ll eventually get where you should be. It was just very interesting to do that simple calculation. In fact, I had the underground one kiloton calculation, one- dimensional, and this atmospheric calculation, and used those as benchmarks. Whenever there was a new technique, new code, I’d compare and say, I won’t believe a thing until you can do these calculations. These were criteria that the person had to meet if they came to me, I remember working with other people, that [ 00: 25: 00] these were forever benchmarks, and just very valuable. Two- dimensional calculations, as I said, Mary, were very difficult. The zone distortion would cut the time step so that we were not making progress. I did put that triangular zone at the origin of this two- dimensional grid and that calculation ran forever. We made a movie of that. I was not interested, it was not my job, but the people, the developers of that code showed that movie for years because it had a layer in the calculation; the way the pressure waves came up against that free surface and reflected off that. You’d see separations, and if we knew the material properties better, we could’ve actually taken this to a cratering calculation. But we UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 didn’t know the material properties, and that’s one of the reasons I went to [ Lawrence] Livermore [ National Laboratory], to get involved with them. But at this time, I needed to run code calculations because there was interest in support for Cypress and Camphor, and Lagrangian codes were just not hacking it. So I talked with Wally Johnson, who used to be at Los Alamos [ National Laboratory] and who was at S3, Systems, Science and Software in La Jolla. Chuck [ Charles] Dismukes is in that crowd. You want to talk to them also for the history, very good people. And Wally, as I say, was at Los Alamos, and we hit it off. Maybe because of our Scandinavian background or whatever, I don’t know, but he had a code that would run. It was Eulerian in which the grid stood still and material moved through it, and you say, well, there’s not a lot of physics here, but it moved material. Well, he had an Eulerian code with some strength parameters put in it called Dorf. Dorf is Ford with the letters jumbled: his sons had messed up his Ford pickup truck emblem and moved things around on it, so he called this code Dorf. But it ran forever. It was interesting and he was interested in what we were doing, and I don’t know, maybe he liked Albuquerque, but he’d worked with me. Again, we hit it off. Maybe it’s just that. He came to Albuquerque off and on, on Saturday and Sunday. We found out we could use the computer annex and have it to ourselves, load tapes, run them, Control Data machines, CDC- 3600s, 6600s; we had it all to ourselves. We had sixteen hours on Saturday, sixteen on Sunday; come to work, thirty- two hours worked, and we were making progress. We had a little red wagon that we’d bring the printout back to my office with. In another area, Wally would pore over this, and often he’d have to go back to wherever, but I’d have printout to pore over. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 And it just was a great relationship and I don’t know, all kinds of cooperation. Just support that the people that had the Lagrangian capability, they were interested in what I was doing. They were amazed that that Lagrangian calculation wouldn’t work until I put that triangular zone in it, and now I’m getting results with an Eulerian code, and wow! This code does run. But how good is it, you know? Are the numbers good? And I said, I don’t know, probably not, but it’s running. We did obtain some agreement with Bob Bass’s field data, and so we were encouraged that things were acceptable. That really was a good, good relationship. You know, as I said, Monday morning I’d just come to work, have all this printout to pore over. Gil [ Gilbert] Larson, Harvey Ogden, and John Levesque, for instance, didn’t come in on weekends, and they were amazed with the data information. Well, one time my wife was in labor, I was in the hospital with her and Wally was at the computer annex. He’d have a question, he’d call me at the hospital, so we were talking back and forth, and my wife couldn’t believe that we were talking back and forth. But he was a great help. Wendell Weart, Jim Plimpton, and Carter Broyles, our bosses, were ecstatic about how we were making progress. I remember we had a meeting in Albuquerque. The center of mass of this discussion seemed to be not in Albuquerque because I was almost a Lone Ranger, working with Marshall Berman a great deal. Marshall would do early- time calculations from zero seconds to twenty- eight shakes. You know what a shake is, right, Mary? [ 00: 30: 00] No. Oh, I thought with your— shake is a hundredth of a— boy, I’ve been retired now long enough, I think— hundredth of a microsecond. So Marshall would do the Lagrangian calculations, with radiation considered in those calculations, for twenty- eight shakes. He would, in other words, get UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 the bomb energy into the materials around the bomb and the materials around it, whether they were manmade materials or geologic materials. He would have the materials either with a lot of kinetic or potential energy deposited out of the bomb. Then I would pick up that information and run with it. And so we would go from twenty- eight shakes out to a millisecond or two or longer, and that’s what we found. We, in fact, went to a few tens or a hundred milliseconds where we did have agreement with Bob Bass’s field data, so we were very, very happy with the progress that we were making. As I was saying, Carter was ecstatic with this information. Our boss was ecstatic that, number one, we were participating with this, and number two, we had this meeting in Albuquerque and that although the center of mass was in La Jolla and Livermore and Los Alamos, Chick Keller, Carl Keller, Jose Cortez, and Barbara Crowley. [ See Photo 2] [ 00: 31: 34] End Track 2, Disc 1. [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 3, Disc 1. Go ahead. I was saying Carter Broyles was ecstatic with our progress after one of these meetings in Albuquerque, and again the center of mass was not in Albuquerque but the people in Livermore. The people in La Jolla were inter