Interview with John Frederick Campbell, January 14, 2005

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with John F. Campbell January 14, 2005 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Mary Palevsky © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with John F. Campbell January 14, 2005 Conducted by Mary Palevsky Table of Contents Introduction: Mr. Campbell discusses the Missile Experimentation [ MX] program at the Nevada Test Site. 1 Mr. Campbell narrates a series of photographs documenting various projects overseen by Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Company [ REECo] at the test site. 4 Work at the test site was often intense and very time- consuming, leading many workers to feel as if they were “ married” to their jobs. 13 Mr. Campbell describes how REECo had to adapt to the demands and management styles of various civilian contractors, military organizations, and the scientific laboratories. 14 Boston University and the University of California at San Francisco support the Department of Energy’s [ DOE] program to study the effects of radiation exposure in order to treat and compensate former test site workers. Mr. Campbell has been an active participant in the effort to contact workers who may have been exposed. 16 Mr. Campbell discusses an incident in which government contractors allegedly destroyed sensitive records that may have documented the health effects of radiation exposure. 21 Mr. Campbell narrates a series of photographs depicting former co- workers and various mining operations conducted at the Nevada Test Site. 22 Mr. Campbell describes the Mighty Oak test, which accidentally vented radiation. 45 Mr. Campbell explains how line- of- sight [ LOS] pipes are used to capture scientific data from underground nuclear tests. 48 Mr. Campbell discusses more photographs and mementoes from his career at the Nevada Test Site. 51 Conclusion: The Nevada Test Site drew miners from all parts of the country. Mr. Campbell describes a group of transient “ tramp miners” that traveled from mine to mine in search of temporary employment. 57 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with John F. Campbell January 14, 2005 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Mary Palevsky [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Mary Palevsky: OK, so you can just talk to me a little bit about that picture. John Campbell: Yes, what this is mostly is just a montage of different scenes from the era of 1979 to 1981 in Area 25 and the MX [ Missile Experimental] missile program. Both the concept of the silo, the racetrack and some of the developments of the rocket, experiments with the towers and using them as a launch pad also. And it got, let’s see, here’s a picture of a transporter. This would actually be something that would carry the missile. Another transporter. I think it’s laid down here. The missile would be in here. And this was a transporter. Huge truck. Huge. All this stuff was big. Now when you say “ transporter,” would that be to transport it there or to actually make it move around the—? All of the above. That was kind of what they called the shell and pea game, where they’ve got a pea under three shells and they don’t know which ones because some of them would be dummies, some of them would be the real thing, and they were always on the move. Right. But you were saying to me, and I wasn’t aware of this, that there was development but there was going to be one of the racetracks at the [ Nevada] test site. They were going to use this as one of the players in the system. They were going to use the railroads, they were going to use several locations, Tucson, Arizona, I think. Wherever they had the missile silos, they were going to take and use a select one or two out of the field for MX, and the rest of them would be dummies. So if they were going to try to destroy one over here or one UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 over here, the chances are of them knowing which was live would be a big deterrent of keeping them guessing and on the move. And this is all— yes, this was another transporter. So everything had to be mined. I mean you were there because— There were two different phases of it. There was the railroad part of it. There was an underground trench that was going to be covered over later, and they had the big trencher. Where was it? It’s in another picture. I don’t have a picture of that. It’s in there. But they had missile silos, vertical shafts about 180 feet. I don’t know— the ones in Arizona, how they— they were all about 200 feet down. And they were about twelve feet in diameter. Finished product, I think, was somewhere around twelve feet. And then they had a railroad underground system. They had tunnels where they’d store missiles, the potential of having one. So we had different experiment areas just on the test site, and all this was missile research, MX research, which is what? Missile Experiment, I think. Is that what that stands for? I think that’d be. That’s— Missile Experimentation. I’d have to go back and do some homework but I think that’s what that acronym meant. I didn’t know that. And is this under what, Department of Defense [ DoD] or whose— do you remember? Indirectly, yes. It was different than the tunnels. That was Defense Nuclear Agency [ DNA]. They run the tunnels and they invited the other players to do that. This was done by the Air Force in Area 25, Area 400. It was Area 400 during the nuclear rocket development [ Project Pluto]. Then it was Area 25, Little Skull Mountain, and then evolved to Yucca Mountain all in the same twenty- five- mile perimeter. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 Right. Because that was confusing to me at one point. With the rocket development, I was reading “[ Area] 400” “[ Area] 25” and then someone explained to me that the name changed. And if you go out there and you pay attention to the signs as you come down into Area 400 by the gate, it’ll say Area 400 there. And then if you’d make a left and go down to the Administration and Engineering building, which is offices and administration building, they’d start MX and then to Lathrop Wells. Then Yucca Mountain later evolved up at Yucca Mountain. Because [ Seymour] Shackelton pioneered the road into Yucca Mountain. In fact, he’s the one that gave me these pictures, because I was with him on most of these jobs. And then he knew that I was going to tell this story, and so he give it to me, oh, seven, eight years ago. And I’ve guarded them with my life. And this is R- MAD [ Reactor Maintenance, Assembly, and Disassembly] I believe. Westinghouse. Marine Division. I’m going to say that’s R- MAD, just right off the top. OK. So I’ll make that number 2. Number 2, R- MAD. Looks like an evening shot. And this is R- MAD, probably— Yes, it looks similar. — because of the missile, I think. Water tower. I would guess R- MAD. Yes, so number 3 also. Now this is a great picture. This is a great aerial photo. Yes, this is the aerial photo of— This is number 4. Number 4, and it views Yucca Mountain. And looking north, towards the Area 12. But this is Area 25 MX missile silo and racetrack. Because the silo, I believe it’s right here but it’s covered up. Yes, sort of to the left of that vertical. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 Yes, it’s got a big, big concrete plug that they just set in the top about twelve feet across and about the same size as that one coming out of the ground. Exactly the same size, because that was a plug that sat on top of the silo. Now can we see Rainier Mesa in this? Is that where you’re saying Area 12 is? That’s the mesa there. Yes. OK. That might be Buckboard, which is right at the edge of Rainier Mesa. Buckboard is to the south, more west than south, from like Area 17, which is right in the middle of Rainier Mesa. That used to be the office. Administration was Area 17. It was a drill yard, office trailers, the buses would go there. I think they had a concrete batch plant. One time back in ’ 67, there was quite a large project— Bill Wise was the division manager for REECo [ Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Company] up there on that. Which raises a question. When you’re working MX, are you still a REECo person at that point? Yes. REECo then contracts on these various projects. OK. I believe what REECo provided was— because I heard both Dale Fraser and Bill Flangas say that the things that REECo owned you could put in the back of a pickup. But they managed all of the above, including personnel for all of the test site, Tonopah, all of it. Then they had the different factions come in with, like in Area 25 there was Westinghouse, Boeing Aerospace, which I did most of my work was with Boeing Aerospace, through the Air Force. Major Jacobs, he was the point of contact with the Air Force. That’s William Jacobs? William Jacobs, yes. But REECo’s the contractor on all these things. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 The prime contractor. So they would come to REECo and say, We need someone to do this kind of thing, and they would say— Bingo. John Campbell is the choice. Well, they’d award the contract up in Fraser’s office— or [ Harold] Cunningham then— and then they’d deliver it. Usually it’d go to Division Mining, Bill Flangas. And then it’d trickle down to Area 12. For the most of the miners were home, or their major drawing pool was Area 12 because that’s where the biggest cadre were. And then they would assign the job from there, kind [ 00: 10: 00] of. Well, they sent Shack [ Seymour Shackelton] to Area 25 and then pretty soon I think I followed or Lavell Atkinson followed, Marv Swena, and we all did work there in the missile silo and the underground egress. I’d have to get my pictures out to— but this here. This is the— OK. So now we’re on picture 5. Picture 5, and this is a picture of Little Skull Mountain, X- portal and Y- portal. REECo did both of the portals as far as the excavation in and setting up. This was REECo’s job. This belonged to— who was the contractor? So it wasn’t REECo? No. No. REECo did everything outside you can see, and then they had to set the mole up right here, the TBM, tunnel boring machine, right here in one piece and walk it into the mountain. Because this was a time study to say that at that time Russia would deliver a barrage of missiles and it hit the mountain that we had missiles stored under, could we effectively egress out of this mountain, shoot, and fire? Because these are pits. Now this is a very complex operation. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 Now this is X or Y here? This is Y. This is X. So it goes left to right. X and then Y. Yes. So as you’re looking at it, to the north would be— because we’re looking kind of north to southeast here, and this is Little Skull Mountain. This was the pit, rubble pit they called it. There was another rubble pit. It wasn’t built then, but I think it’s right here. Because this tunnel went in 700 feet and then a cross cut off to the left and they’d put in a huge jacking station. I mean the hydraulic rams were like this. Which is what? Five feet. Every bit of that. And this was done automatic. They brought sections of pipe in, and this was a vertical boring machine that would start up underground because they took the tunnel boring machine 700 foot straight in and parked it, come back about 150 feet and drove what they call a cross cut to the left. Probably a nineteen- foot tunnel, and they drove that with a road header. Al Redman was down there. I’ll think of the contractor. It’ll come to me in a minute. Because I worked right with a lot of them. I got to see all this start up and work. And so I understand, this is to see if this were attacked, would it be possible to get that missile that’s in the attacked place out— And if we had a direct hit here, could we egress up through the middle of that, tip off or tip the cutting head off, and then start shooting missiles out here? Because we’re all underground. All right. So you have to have the cutting head first and then the— oh wow. The same mole that would go underground, they’d tip it vertical like this. They had to have the same— but it all ran remotely from outside. Or they had an alcove here— We’re still in X- tunnel now. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 Yes. I don’t know those guys’ names. I’m starting to see their faces. Dale— and I’ll get them here in a second. That’s all right. We can do that later. Yes, and they’ll come to me. I think it was 150 or 200 feet off here, about this area right here. Right. Right to the edge of the picture. Then they filled this pit, this huge pit up here, full of boulders. I got the other pictures that tell this story and reinforce it. And then we could egress through all that, you know. And the dirt would go down this liner they put in. Everything was designed— the electrical wall went together, little stairways all went together— everything went. As they’d mine up four feet, they would set another section in, clamp, drop those big rams down, put another section in. Men would go in [ 00: 15: 00] and actually take air wrenches and bolt this section together, and then they’d start and they’d turn the mole on up again, electric, and up another four feet. And they did that in record time and actually holed through the rubble pit on top. They did? So did I understand you correctly that the same tunnel boring machine that went in— Like it. Not the same one. One like— not the same one but one like it. One is a vertical and one was horizontal. Same design. Made by the same tunnel boring machine manufacturer in Washington. I’ve been away from it so long, I can’t remember. Robbins, I think. Robbins is what this— made in Washington. Oh no, it came out of Chicago. It was one of them that the Air Force bought, I think, for ten million [ dollars] out of Chicago in one of the sewer or water tunnels in Chicago. Then they sent it to Robbins to be rebuilt That’s what it’s reminding me of, a little bit, when you see things on TV about how they do that. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 Right. The Air Force bought that. I think they shipped it to Washington— back to the Robbins factory— reconditioned it, and then the Air Force took delivery of it. Because it had to set up with a pair of walking shoes. Because outside the tunnel, they’re helpless. They have to have something to hold on to, to turn this big head on to start moving forward. And then it has big, oh, pads that reach out and grip the sides of the tunnel, and then they have hydraulic rams that push it out and delivers the dirt outside on conveyor belt. This was all done with conveyor belt. There were very few people underground. A lot of good engineering went into it. It had to have been. And it all proved successful. I think the only person that we lost on that job was going into this- right here was our office where the stairs are. One morning a Teamster walking up the stairs to a safety meeting died of a heart attack. I was up here in this little office giving the miners the safety meeting. They had some people down here in the other office. The supporting crafts were down here. And I got a call to get my butt down there. When I run down there in my truck, they had this old boy laying on the steps and they didn’t know what to do. And I started— because I’d been trained in mine rescue— started mouth- to- mouth and get somebody to resuscitate him— I was working on his [ chest] and trying to get his heart beating, but you just know, even though we tried, for forty miles [ after he was in the ambulance]. They put him in an ambulance and got him on the way to Mercury Medical— and they tried to shock him and everything. But he’d cut his eyebrow when he hit the step and there wasn’t a drop of blood come out, so he was dead on his feet. But that’s the only man that we lost that I know of there in all of the time. And they later went back and did other experiments, even after I left the test site. This was quite an experiment area for underground— the early days of what they were doing over in Iraq: tunnel busters with tanks and stuff. They perfected weaponry underground here in this one [ X- portal]. This one [ Y- UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 portal], I don’t think they ever did anymore but disassemble the TBM— and this was the same thing. It had a different kind of mole, TBM at the X- portal. OK, so this is Y now. Yes. Working on the same thing, same question. Same thing. Same concept, different contractors, you know, different ideas, different cadre of people, but REECo supported all of this, and some of this. Nothing underground, but some of the outside support, like pumping the toilets, drinking water, trash. REECo did the portal on X and Y and the underground mining at Y- portal up until another contractor did the installation of the vertical TBM. That REECo did for the whole test site. REECo supported that, yes. That was their prime contract. But the outside sub- contractor, they managed the personnel and the engineering and everything from the mole being delivered here and setting up to go underground. And I’ve got pictures of that. I don’t know if I got anything going in, but I got them coming out. Yes, that’ll be great to see. Yes. It’s the same thing, only the portals there. But REECo did all the facing- off of the portals. Shackelton and, I think, Lavell Atkinson was in on that, Marv Swena. What’s the name? What Atkinson? Lavell? [ 00: 20: 00] Lavell. He comes to the breakfasts [ informal monthly meeting of REECo retirees]. Yes. He was down there as much as I was, off and on. Yes, he was one of the tunnel walkers I worked with. But that was quite a job we had. Yes, it’s a huge area there. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 I was there probably three years on this project at Little Skull. But this is Seymour Shackelton. He’s the project manager. So now we’re moving on to 6, and you explained this to me before. This is very interesting. Now this is not in the same area, though. [ Photo 6 not scanned.] Yes. It is. It’s right down the road, three miles away, towards the Lathrop Wells gate. I think it’s about two- and- a- half to three miles from here to here. OK. From picture 5 to picture 6. Both Area 25. One was called Little Skull Mountain. The other one was called, oh, it had several names: MX, the silo. But in Area 25. In fact, from the Lathrop Wells gate is only about a half- a- mile. Oh, really. Yes, it’s right there, right behind Lathrop Wells. Now you’ve got these stickers on here. Are they related to this or you just put them on there? No, no, no, these were out of P- tunnel. When I was the mining superintendent at P- tunnel, these are the three events I was on. This one and this one was two in one. Distant Zenith and Distant Light, and then Diamond Fortune. And Diamond Fortune and Mission Cyber. They were all at G- tunnel back in the late eighties. All right. So let’s talk about this one. This is so interesting. Well, what this was— and I’ve got more pictures of the inside of the silo and the thing— that they had about a 125- foot silo. And we, as miners for REECo, went down and modified this silo or the shaft itself to in turn install a U2 rocket motor attached to the end of a launch tube— I think UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 it’s about a five- foot diameter tube— that could, in fact, house a missile. And this was done by Boeing Aerospace, the date I would have to get— We can get that. Yes. Yes, I’ll have to get better timetables because it took us over a period of a year- and- a- half, two years. See, because what we can do is once we get this transcript, we can add in the dates. Here’s Little Skull Mountain. Great. So that’s that from 5 there. I see it in the distance. Right. Then the highway. See? Here’s Little Skull. See, we never had a road up there yet. This was a long time after this. The road came off— there’s the road right there. Yes. Oh, I see it. Yes. That would go to Little Skull Mountain right here. But it’d go around the base of this mountain. So there’s the mountain in the distance and so we’re looking at this— Right. You’re looking due east, south and east, from— looking out across— Now we’re on photo 6, and is this something that’s dynamic here, that’s actually happening in time? Yes, yes, it started out as they compacted a twenty- two- foot overburden, compacted soil, alluvium and most of the desert material that was found there. I think they did import some Betonite in places to mix with it. But it had to be compacted to spec. And then at zero time they fired this U2 rocket motor, which pushed this tube and plug up through the twenty- two foot of overburden and then locked in place. I think I got a video of this, too. There is a video available, I know. I used to have one. I think I still do. And then it locked, and then they fired some UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 explosive bolts near the plug and tipped it off, and then in all practicality could fire the [ 00: 25: 00] missile out of the tube. So it was a another example where we could egress up through an overburden or protective cover, or even if that was a direct hit, a rubble zone, we could blow up through it, tip off, and fire a missile. Yes, I’ve never— you see things like this in movies and sort of the idea of it. I never thought about the fact that of course you had to be able to tip off all that material that you’ve gone up through to fire the missile. And the engineers had to shear this plant. REECo got a big “ attaboy” award for it, and I did. I did. I got an award for it because some engineer up in Spokane, Washington drew up a time chart about two years before we ever started, and we finished it within twelve hours of what they wanted. But we had to use every available resource— I stayed out on the job for sometime 10- 12 hours a day— this is where I seen the path of snow. I was standing in my office looking out the window. Oh yes, why don’t you tell that story again? That’s a great story. Yes. I was here in one of these offices, trailer right here? OK, we’re back on picture 4, in the office complex. Yes, in Area 25, and I’d be headed back toward the A& E building, which would be due east from the MX missile silo. This road here pretty much runs due east and west. And it was on a, oh, almost dark on the swing shift. And again, I don’t know what year it was. But there was a storm come across the desert in the early spring. It was kind of warm and all of a sudden, it just dropped twenty- five degrees. And for about a mile- and- a- half, there was a snowstorm that put down probably about two- and- a- half to three inches of wet snow in a path across the desert. And you could step from dry pavement or wet pavement to snow pavement in one big step. It was UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 that— and you could look to the north and you’d look to the south and you could see where it just— it was like somebody painted it on there. Shhhoooo! And it was gone, melting as fast as it fell. So it was in that era that you were spending all this time out there. Yes. That relates to what you said earlier, too, before we had the recorder on, about having been married to your job. You do. Because, well, I didn’t know when I was coming home. And the only babysitter I had, because I had two daughters here, one was twelve and fourteen. Yes, because as luck would have it, I bought this house— I didn’t know anybody here. And I moved in and I was out here one morning, I think, getting something out of the garage, and I saw Britt Johnson over there admiring the house on the corner. And he worked with me for twenty- five years. You’re kidding. He just moved out. He’s been here as long as I have. We bought the houses brand new. Yes. And he’s a good person and neighbor. And he’s still got a key to this house. Yes. That’s how much I trust the man. Because I worked with him, you know, every day, every day, every day, every day. And he moved out. Yes, here about, oh, two months ago ( 2004). He comes to the breakfasts every once in a while. I think I might’ve met him. Yes. He’s a real nice guy. Super nice guy. He probably has one of the nicest backyards in the neighborhood. He does. And it’s probably one of the biggest backyards in the neighborhood. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 And he’s out there mowing it, oh, he’s pushed that mower for thirty years. I told him, I said, Britt, you’ve wore out ten lawn mowers, pushing them out there. And it’s true. But he worked there and you worked there, so did that help with your kids? Babysitting? Yes. His daughter would- across the street, and I had a rule that they would have a phone in the garage, and they could go out and play, because I was on swing shift a lot and I wouldn’t get home till 2: 30 in the morning. And if that phone rang over three times without somebody on the other end of it, there was hell to pay. You can go out there and play kickball and this, because they were young and— but if that phone didn’t get answered—. You know, I’m sure their devilishness went [ on] and someday I’ll find out what really went on and all that. Right. They’ll tell you someday. They’ll tell you the story someday. [ 00: 30: 00] Yes. Yes, it’ll slip out. That’s all right, though. But anyway, this was quite a success for Boeing Aerospace and REECo, because REECo supported them with the personnel and all of the equipment, and all they did was bring the money and their blueprints, and their engineers. And we had to do it Boeing’s way, which was different than the way REECo did things, because they were into building airplanes and we were into driving tunnels, you know. That’s close enough, but not building airplanes it isn’t. They could split a hair right down the middle. Oh, I see what you’re saying, yes. It had to be exact. And that’s good, yes. And you had to work for all them old biddies. Me, you know, I had to make— if I interfaced between the construction trades, and they were on the edge [ laughing]. They were all good at what they did as craftsmen. Now what they did off the test site, I didn’t have no control over. We’d hear stories and stuff, but when they came to work, they were professional. And REECo had some really, really good people. They came from all over the UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 United States. They came together, as destiny would have it, and the luck of the draw that they came from everywhere with good ideas and we made it work. Was working for Boeing and those kinds of engineers different than working for the labs when they were doing—? Same. Same type of engineering. Were always supervised by a— let’s see, the pecking order would start like with the Air Force in Area 25 or Area 400. The Air Force was the overseer, kind of. First I guess it would be DOE, or Department of Energy, then ERDA [ Energy Research and Development Agency], and back then I think it was ERDA, and the pecking order, then would come the Air Force or DNA, according to where you were at, and then would come the contractor. And the contractor was REECo because they had the prime contract. They did, oh, 90 percent of the labor union craft support, maintenance, all the trucks, everything was done by REECo. Support services for the contractor, but the contractor brought their checkbook with them and we got to spend their money. And REECo got a cut of it. If we did good, they got cost plus award. So yes, this was one of the funner jobs that I was on. Had a small group of miners, not very many, five or six, but I handpicked them all. And yes, we got a big attaboy for this, or REECo did. And we got to go to dinner and tell stories, and I get to relive the moment every time I pick up the picture and look at it. When I’ve gone by there, going to Yucca Mountain, we got up high enough— when I went out with some doctors from Boston University, what was it, September, October? No, September 4 or— Just this past? Yes, yes, Dr. Lew Pepper asked me if I would go along with a whole busload of doctors and health care professionals, doctors, nurses, most of them were doctors, though. In fact, they were the doctors that are— one of the doctors was soliciting people to do analysis on the former work UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 here at the Nevada Test Site, because it’s transitioning from the Department of Labor has got it— see, DOE kind of was with the Department of Labor. Now DOE’s getting clear out of the picture. Oh, they are. Clear out. They no longer will have anything to do with the Flamingo office. It’ll all be the Department of Labor. That’s in a transition right now. Well then, the Department of Labor has got their people that are schooled in environmental workplace hazards. They’ve been trained to take the information from the screening and make the award to the individual. It kind of went in about backwards. DOE and the Boston University and [ University of California at] San Francisco, they kind of provided [ 00: 35: 00] the medical information. And then the Department of Energy and Department of Labor started, once the doctors said, Yes, this is an environmental disease, then they started awarding the hundred and fifty thousand [ dollars] medical and— Right. We could spend a lot of time talking about this and I actually want to sometime, but is that evolving, the kinds of illnesses that are covered? Is that established or are they still doing research on it? I wouldn’t want to be quoted on this, even though I’m on the advisory panel with University of Boston and I’m on the DOE working group on the protection of human subjects. Here’s one. I went to school and— here’s Dr. Susan Rose. She was the lady that invited me to participate in a working group. I went to Bethesda, Maryland and Washington D. C., and we’d sit around this round table, thirty or so of us, and discuss the protection of human subjects. We even authored a book over here on the protection of human subjects in research. Yes, I know. Yes, because you have to— UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 17 She a character. She’s no longer with the DOE. She’s UCLA [ University of California, Los Angeles], something in this booklet— it tells about her in there. This was her last meeting. The new guy is here. But I get this flyer probably two or th