Rosamond McDougal interview, February 14, 1979: transcript

UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 1 An Interview with Rosamond McDougal An Oral History Conducted by Concepcion Fernandez Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 2 © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2020 UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 3 The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 4 Abstract On February 14, 1979, Concepcion Fernandez interviewed Rosamond McDougal (born in Texas) about her life as a teacher in Las Vegas. McDougal speaks primarily about her time as a teacher in the Clark County School District, her unique class setup and the district’s changes. Moreover, McDougal speaks about the growing number of students and teachers, the superintendent’s role in bond issues, the courses offered, racial integration in the school district (and the casinos), and the building of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. McDougal gives personal anecdotes about her family, her husband’s job at the Atomic Test Site and her time as an organ player in churches around the city. Lastly, she talks about recreational activities, Helldorado, the casinos and department stores. UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 5 Interview of Rosamond McDougal on February 14th, 1979 at 2 p.m. The place is John C. Fremont Junior High, 1100 East Saint Louis, Las Vegas, Nevada. The interview is done by Concepcion Fernandez for Nevada History 117 Section 2. When did you first come to Las Vegas, Misses McDougal? In 1955, March. Why? Well, my husband was sent out here for the insurance company when he took over the position of office manager. I came thinking this was the end of the world. (Laughs) (Laughs) What insurance company was it? Oh, God. Do you remember? Occidental (unintelligible) I think. Occidental Life Insurance, yes. Okay. What were—you’re a teacher, and what were the job opportunities for a teacher in 1955? Well, then we couldn’t get enough teachers. Anybody can teach if you have two years of university. (Unintelligible) Sixty hours of education, even. You didn’t have to have a degree. And it didn’t pay even to have a master’s degree because we just got two hundred more a year than a teacher with a bachelors. But they were crying for teachers, people weren’t even qualified for teaching. Not even certified. What was the average salary of a teacher? Well, I started at forty-two hundred with a master’s degree. I would say all the other salaries were below four thousand. UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 6 What was the education system like? Well it was pretty good, school. Doctor Guild Gray, he was our superintendent. And we had in the neighborhood of twenty thousand, twenty-one thousand students. Because I remember when it got to be twenty-three thousand he said we had no place for them. No room, no schools, no teachers. With twenty-three thousand we were bursting at the seams. About how many teachers were there per student? Seems to me that we were around three hundred or more, I could be wrong on that. But at least all the teachers knew each other. Now we don’t even know some of the teachers in our own buildings. How many high schools and elementries and junior highs were there? One senior high which was Vegas and three junior highs if I remember correctly. J.D. Smith, Fremont and Hyde Park. And I don’t remember how many elementary schools, but it was a very small system compared to todays. Do you remember the building of Rancho High? Oh yes. Used to pass it every morning going to J.D. Smith, watched it go up. And that was supposed to be a super duper modern building. It was really supposed to be an extravagant school. Course, compared to the new ones, it doesn’t look that way today. (Laughs) What was the reaction of the public about that? Oh, they thought it was fantastic because we needed a school in North Las Vegas. And they did some busing in there, of course not what we do today. But we were so glad because Vegas High was so badly crowded. They were really bursting at the seams. Because all the junior highs fell into Vegas High. Mm. How many students did you have in each classroom, about? UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 7 It was really a pretty good number. I think we stayed around thirty, thirty-two to a section. Were the kids really different back then from what they are now? Oh, there’s no comparison. If I had one problem all day long, that was unusual. Now I’m lucky if I get through the day without various kinds of problems. (Laughs) Were they very talkative like now? Not particularly. And I taught over in North Las Vegas and I really had some upper level students. Really good students, very conscientious. I was really lucky. I didn’t have really any problem kids. Did you have more than one level in each classroom? Like, did you have a combined—? The first year, we just had a heterogeneous room. And then the second year they started an accelerated program. I was lucky enough to get in on that. Except then we had to teach three hours in a row. The teacher had to teach English and math and social studies in a three-period block, so I had only two sections. And I taught math and English and social studies to one, but on the second one I had a free period, so I just got the math and English. Social studies was my waterloo. I was never good at teaching history (laughs). Math and English were great. (Laughs) What were the school hours then? About the same as they are now. I think we went a little bit longer, we usually started around eight or eight-thirty. And got out around three. And they had the lunch break? They had lunch break, right. But as well as I remember the classes were full sixty minutes. Okay. How many classes were the students required to take a day? Was it—were they required to stay the full time in school? They stayed the full time, right. Mm-hmm. Six hours. UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 8 Okay. What type of classes were there—were offered? Like home economics? Maybe a few more electives than we have now since we’ve cut back on the electives. But the standard; shop and home economics, foreign language. We did do more foreign language than we do now. We didn’t have too many of the frills like—I shouldn’t say frills (laughs), I’ll get in trouble on that. The arts and crafts and the other things that we have such as everybody taking music, like some junior highs have. We didn’t have that. We didn’t have the money for the instruments in the first place, nor the room. So they were limited to the usual standard electives. What was the importance of sports then? Like right now, it’s a really important part of school. Oh it was important but I don’t think we over did it as we do now. That didn’t come first, the school did. And sports came in later. Were the students allowed to choose their own classes or was it done by—? No, no. And another interesting thing, they weren’t allowed to choose their own dress code either. Hmm. The first three years that I taught, I remember one girl coming to school with slacks on. Now not the tight jeans but the slacks with pleats at the waist and the full legs and we sent her home. (Laughs) (Unintelligible) I remember sending another girl home because she had on a long sleeve sweater but I thought it was too tight. And I sent her home and we could get by with that in those days and now you wouldn’t believe what we see on campus. Unbelievable. See-thru blouses, shorts that are short, short. (Laughs) But it was so different. Different school environment entirely. Students came there to learn. Sometimes it’s just a social hour these days. And school interferes with their social activities. But it was quite different those days. UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 9 What classes were they required to take? Like social studies and math. And English. P.E., some type of history by ninth grade. Social studies in seventh and eighth. And science, they did have to have science in those days. Do you remember what the high school requirements were? No. They had—at the time, they had to have four years of English for a college bound student. And they did have two years of foreign language. That was required in those days. And we used to have a lot of foreign language teachers. And two years of history I think, but I don’t know about the math, possibly three or four. In your opinion, what are the most significant changes that have occurred in the education system? Too much permissiveness. Too much allowing students choose whatever course they want—unfortunately, most of ’em go the easy route. Not demanding enough of the students. That’s why some of them are graduating today without being able to read and to write properly. We’re trying to change that now with the new requirements coming in. But we—when we did have students who graduated from high school, they really earned their diploma. A high school diploma meant something those days. It just didn’t, it didn’t just mean twelve years of attendance. Do you remember any important issues like the bond issue or anything like that? I remember when Doctor Gray had to go for a three-million-dollar bond issue. It was not like the fifty-nines and the sixty-somethings we go these days, but he told me then if he had to go for a three-million-dollar bond that he would probably be out as superintendent. And that’s the way it worked. We got the three million but the people were incensed over the fact that we spent that much money on the school system. Although we had the money. But I don’t believe that the hotels were taxed to the point that they are now. They made that money go into the school fund UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 10 because the Strip was not annexed at the time. As a matter of fact, the Clark County was consolidated. We had Paradise Elementary School was outside of it. We didn’t have any connection with Boulder City or Henderson. And we didn’t—I forgot what year we were unified. But different schools have money according to their location. For instance, Paradise School had tons of money. They had two or three buses, they had the band instruments—which they didn’t even use—stacked up in classes, they had a marvelous cafeteria for all the students. And the only reason I know this, I substituted out there in ’56. But the money that went into Paradise came from the Strip hotels because they were zoned, whatever they called it in those days. Where over at J.D. Smith, where I really taught, it was in a poorer section and struggled to get equipment. But then when it was unified, consolidated, then everything was distributed evenly. What do you remember about the con, con—? (Laughs) Consolidation. (Laughs) Consolidation of the Clark County? What about, what was the public opinion and—? I think the public was for it because there were too many inequities. And they supported it. Of course, it was a big job to consolidate all the schools when you considered that all these different schools had their own little entities for so many years. But it was the best thing that happened to the school system because it helped out the poorer sections, the poorer districts. What about the Strip and annexation of the Strip? Do you remember something about that? Was there a big political council? I don’t remember frankly because I don’t get involved in politics unless I have to. (Laughs) They changed—they had always paid in their share towards the schools but they changed that and UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 11 divided, I don’t know how that was handled really. I shouldn’t even answer the question because I’m not aware of the political (unintelligible). Political issues back then, back between 1955 and 1960, ’61, ’62 brought really big controversy to Nevada. Do you remember anything that stands out in your mind? Not really, Connie. (Laughs) I don’t like the people, got too worked up or excited about issues and I don’t remember that we had too many conflicts and issues of such a small town. You have to keep in mind that when we had eighteen thousand students in the school system, we didn’t have—we had less than population, less than fifty thousand. And that’s a small town. And everybody seemed to work together because we knew each other and there weren’t, you know, the hassles that there are now as to whether it should be a kinder city. Do you remember what the public’s reaction was when the idea was brought up to bring a university to Nev—to Las Vegas? Oh yes. (Laughs) That went on for quite some time. The time that I came out here they had, I guess you call it the junior college because it was just the first two years and you could go out to the university. Freshman and sophomore year, but you had to go to Reno to complete your degree. And Vegas had worked for a long time to get the university here. Then it took a long time after that before we could have master’s degrees. Was the public really in favor of it or—? Oh yes. Definitely. Did you find that—people felt that a university wasn’t needed here? I’m sure there was always that faction that didn’t want to go into debt. You know, pay the money to get the school here. But on the whole, the towns paid for the university coming in. What was the junior college that was in existence then? UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 12 Well, it was a branch of Reno but they couldn’t be called a real university because it didn’t have the four years. Where was it located? Same place but there was just the one building. Just the main building out there. There was absolutely nothing out there. As a matter of fact the road that went out there got washed out every time we had a rain or they had the gully and then they would have to wait and go out in the desert and then wait for them to repair it before we could use the road again. ’Cause I went out and took some courses and you knew everybody and the university because it was so small. There were just a few hundred out there. (Laughs) And then it’s just built and built and built. In fact, I don’t even know where all the buildings are. Back when I went, took a few courses there, there was one building then they built the second and then I believe the Dickinson Library was the third building. I think, I could be wrong on that. But now it’s just unbelievable. Do you feel that politics played a major role in the constructing of University of Nevada, Las Vegas? Oh I’m sure it did. I’m sure it did. I was so busy teaching and raising a family that I wasn’t aware of what was going on. (Laughs) By the time I got home from school and took care of the kids and the house, I didn’t get involved in too many other things. Do you remember anything about the above-ground testing, atomic testing? Well, at the time—I can go back, say, fifteen years because that was when my first husband died and then I remarried and I remarried a man from the test site. And that was his job, way in the back. So that’s where all the testing was, in his area. Oh I remember sitting on the bed one day grading papers at three-thirty and I looked up and the scales were just swinging back and forth and the chandeliers were moving. So when he came home that night from the test site I said, UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 13 “what kind of shot did you shoot off?” and he was just horrified because in those days it was really secret, secret and you never could let anybody know a shot has been detonated. And he said that I (unintelligible) and I said “no, I was sitting up in bed and I felt—.” You know, you could feel the waves shake the bed and sure enough the scales were swinging and frightened me. I thought we were having some kind of earthquake. Oh yes. They were very secret about it in those days, it was never in the paper. I don’t remember reading about it in the paper until, oh, probably in the 70s ’cause they kept it all hush, hush. Where did you first live when you came out here? In the old Twin Lakes track. Out on the Tonopah Highway. And we were so far out of town that if I wanted groceries, I had to come all the way into town and there was an old Safeway on Second Street where one of the big casinos is. And either that or I had to drive way out on the Tonopah Highway to a little grocery store where you could just get milk and bread and few things. But where we lived was way, way on the boondocks. And I remember thinking that anybody who lived on that side of town had to be crazy. Then later on, when we built our big home, we were further out than that. So that shows you how the town has grown. Just like the university started with the one building and spreading out. And now we live down on Eastern and Desert Inn, which is at the other end of the extreme because my boys used to go rabbit hunting down on Burnham. All that was vacant land, they used to go down there with their BB guns and shoot birds out of the trees. (Laughs) Which they shouldn’t have done. And then they went rabbit hunting down below Lamb Boulevard. They used to go down there and hunt, shoot rabbits and squirrels, whatever they could find. And that was all vacant territory. So the town was really, really small and the school system was small. But it was kind of fun because you knew so many people. UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 14 How many highways were there back then? Do you remember? Just Tonopah and going out to California. That’s all that I remember. What was the condition of them? Were they—? Pretty good, I think they tore up Sahara three or four times a year. That was the only main street we had for a while and it was terrible. Just terrible. And every time you come up a street they had another section torn up. But the streets were really bad, they’ve done a much better job surfacing. ’Cause they used to just put the hard surface right down over the desert and that’s why the roads washed out to UNLV every time we had a rain. And we had the chuckholes in the streets, but they’ve learned since that they can’t do that so they did put a good foundation to the roads now. What were the major streets back in 1955? Fremont, Charleston. I used to go from Fourteenth Street over to J.D. Smith and I had no stop signs at all, no lights—street lights. Then (unintelligible) one year and it swung from the same place on Fourteenth. Then there’s a stop light at Lane. Let’s see, was there any other? No, that’s the only one all the way up to Hyde Park, there was one stop light. (Unintelligible) It’s just traffic, there’s just nothing in those days. You can go all over town in ten minutes, from one end of the town to the other. When was Maryland Parkway built? It was here when I came out but it was called Twelfth Street. And I forgot when they changed the name but that was Twelfth. It was really a tiny street, huh? Oh yes. It went—it stopped at where Sahara is now until they built the road. They’d had to go drag and they blacktopped it going out to the university, but there was nothing between Sahara UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 15 and the university. Absolutely nothing. Because a friend of mine told me how she bought some land between Sahara and the university and I said “you’re crazy.” That was the year that all of the hotels went under and really no one would buy houses, (unintelligible) just sat there vacant. So everybody was afraid to invest, but Vegas got back on its feet. But there was nothing between Sahara and the university. During that time when the hotels went under, was it really hard? The life out here. Oh yes. Right. And so many people were out of jobs. So many people had to leave. At one time there were eight hotels that had gone under. Do you remember what they were? Yes, it was the Stardust, the Riviera, the Last Frontier, (unintelligible). At least those were three of them. The Sahara was always in good shape. And Dessert Inn, I don’t remember that they had any trouble. But I remember when they built Stardust Hotel it was eight million dollars and we thought people had to be crazy to put eight million dollars in a hotel. We were just horrified. And the fact that it went under, I just said “well, what did you expect?” That somebody would come out here and invest eight million dollars in a hotel and now look at what we have, a hundred and fifty million for MGM. Whatever the figure is. But in those days five or six, seven, eight million was just absolutely ridiculous to be poured out here in the desert. What was the most extravagant? Like right now MGM and Aladdin are, like they’re the most extravagant hotels. What was the—what were they then? I suppose Thunderbird and the Sahara and Desert Inn. Those were the main hotels (unintelligible). How calculated were the hotels then? UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 16 Well, not as much as they are now. It might be interesting to you to know that the blacks were not allowed inside the hotels at all and that went on for several years. Of course, the blacks worked in the kitchens and they did work anywhere in the hotel. As far as being in the casinos they weren’t allowed there nor were they allowed in the showroom. So we’ve come a long way in that line, but it was kind of interesting to see how Vegas has changed in that line. How about the tourists? Did any black tourists come here? No, no. Not at all? Uh-uh. There’d be no point in it because outside of just looking at the hotels from the outside, they weren’t allowed in. And then, of course, the first hotel that was built for blacks was the Moulin Rouge, there on Bonanza. Of course, it didn’t stay open too long but that’s when we started integration into the hotels. Besides from the Moulin Rouge, do you remember what other hotel was the first to become integrated? Well, I think at the time that they decided to let the blacks in, all the hotels opened up to them. But for a while the Moulin Rouge was built just for that purpose. What were the tourists like back then? ’Cause some right now, you know, they complain about how we’re not courteous to them. What was it like back then? I don’t ever remember hearing complaints about not—the people not being courteous. Probably because it was a small town and they needed the tourists so bad, like, they needed the money. And we were polite to the tourists. Of course, I think more has spread by word-of-mouth than it has any of these courtesy campaigns. But I don’t remember ever seeing any articles in the paper about the fact that we should be more courteous to our visitors since our livelihood depends on it. UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 17 But it was a small town and a small community and the Thunderbird Hotel was kind of the local hotel. When people went out to dinner, that’s where you would find them. At the Thunderbird. What kind of tourists came in? Were they mostly, like, just everyday people that they would take off for their vacation (unintelligible) or were they like high rollers? I think we had a little of both, really. But in those days, the Las Vegans (unintelligible). We seemed to have brought it now because of the (unintelligible) and the crowds. You don’t see the local people like you used to. Can you remember any of the important names in the building, casino industry? Hotel industry? Not really. I really paid very little attention to it, actually. Would you remember about the papers? Like right now the Review Journal and the Sun are major papers. I remember more about the Journal because both of my boys were paperboys that carried the paper. I remember thinking they were rather odd papers after reading the Dallas Morning News in Texas. But at least we got the local news. It was great to have the local news in it. What was the average salary of a paperboy carrier then? I think they made about fifty cents per person, per month. In fact, if they took home with their take-home pay, it was twenty-five or thirty dollars. That was a lot of money. In those days it was, it would be the equivalent of about ninety now, I suppose. Course that was twenty-something years ago when they were delivering the papers. What kind of hours did they have to commute? They usually started after school, around three or three-thirty and they got home about six, six-fifteen, six-thirty. Time for supper. Then eventually they switched over to the Sun or maybe both UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 18 carried for the Sun. We had to get up early in the morning and I usually had to drive the car on Sundays because the papers were so big for them to carry on the bike. Oh yes, I used to learn a lot of the streets by running the paper routes with them. Do you remember what about—what was the average size of the paper then? No, I would say probably half what it is. They weren’t very big. What do you remember about the churches and church life? Well, when I came out I really didn’t think there were churches out here because all I’d heard about Vegas is just the bad part or the gambling. And I was connected with church all my life ’cause I always played the organ for churches. So the first year I was out here, the Griffith Methodist church was holding its meetings down in (unintelligible) Hall, which was down on East Charleston. So I played the organ there and then we built the church on Griffith. Griffith Methodist Church, on Seventeenth and Oakey. And I played there for twelve years and then when I would tell people I played at church in Vegas they would like look at me like “oh, yes? Sure you do.” (Laughs) The same with school if you told them you were a school teacher in Las Vegas. They would look at you like, you know, I don’t believe you have schools much less churches. (Laughs) Like I said, it was a small town then and you really made more friends at church than you did almost any place. But we did have churches, not many like we do now but—. Do you have any interesting stories that happened to you while you were playing? Well, yes. I played for the Jewish Synagogue and it was really confusing because they used the Hebrew books and to me they were reading backwards and I couldn’t keep up with them. I couldn’t get half my cues to play the organ because we had, say, for instance the candle lighting UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 19 service. I’d expect to see candle lighting service on the program and it wasn’t there, it was in Hebrew. And I missed many a cue and the singing. I remember one particular night that Elizabeth Taylor was there with Eddie Fisher when they were married and the cantor was singing and he used to get off key and I couldn’t follow him. (Laughs) It was terrible. And Eddie Fisher was sitting as close to me as you are now, just right down from the organ. And the guy got so far off key that I couldn’t follow him, so I just quit playin’ and I looked over at Eddie Fisher and he went “eh.” You know, the typical expression. (Laughs) But I did get to sit next to him and get to look at Elizabeth Taylor so it was interesting over there. And I played for Hank Greenspun’s son’s bar mitzvah and I remember seeing the governor there. Which governor? And quite a number—I don’t remember who was governor then, it was several years back. Several really big-wigs. But that was interesting, too. I learned a lot about the Jewish religion over there, but I just played the one year. What other stars—you mentioned Eddie Fisher and Elizabeth Taylor. What other stars have you been, you know, related—not related to (laughs). (Laughs) That I’ve seen? Yes, that you’ve seen. Well, we didn’t go to too many of the shows. When we did we went to the extravaganzas, the big production numbers. But I remember seeing Barbra Streisand and, of course, Sammy Davis. All the older stars used to come back then. Not Streisand, she was fairly new in the—the older ones that you’re familiar with. You talked about the extravaganzas. Are they as big of a production as they are now? UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 20 Oh no. No. The first one was (unintelligible) and we thought that was really something. Of course, that would be very minor compared to Hallelujah Hollywood. Which was, at least in the shows that I’ve seen, that’s the most extravagant. Do you remember anything about Howard Hughes? Oh yes. When he came out, he was really supposed to be the second savior because the hotels were in trouble and they were having all kinds of financial problems. So both of the newspapers wrote great glowing editorials about how terrific he was and what he had done for Las Vegas and the economy and we never heard anything derogatory. (Tape one ends) Interview with Rosamond McDougal, side two continued. Talking about Howard Hughes. We never heard anything derogatory about Howard Hughes when he first came. And it wasn’t until he moved out of here, I think, that the newspapers began cutting and taking swipes at him because he did pour the money into Vegas when the hotels really needed it. So, of course, now anytime you pick up a paper you’re going to read all kinds of editorials blasting him and any of his people who worked for him. But in those days, he really did come in at the right time. Did you meet any famous—did you ever meet Howard Hughes? No, no. Never got to see him, huh? No, never saw him. Just pictures of him. Do you remember any of his romances with anybody? No. I’ve heard a lot of gossip about him but I doubt that any of it—. Okay. Do you remember, like, Lake Mead when you came out here? Was it really something that tourists went out to see and everybody went out to see? UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 21 Yes. Usually the tourists went out. I took my boys out (unintelligible). As a matter of fact, the first year I taught I had an eighth grade and in those days we could get the school buses and take the students on field trips so I took my eighth grade, which was self-contained then. Can you believe that? All day long you had an eighth grade and you taught them every subject and the second year, of course, we went into the junior high system. But I took my whole class out to Boulder Dam and a picnic lunch. We had a ball, but I don’t think people do that so much these days. The tourists are too busy at the hotels. I’m sure they do have some excursions and some trips out there but it’s not the drawing card it used to be. You have a really special class system here at John C. Fremont. Can you talk about that? Your job here. Yes, I do. I’m one of those lucky people. About six years ago we decided that we would—or I had asked the principal if he would let me carry seventh grade into the eighth grade just to see what I could do with them. So I got to choose my students for the eighth grade, then we went into creative writing English combination system. And it worked out so well, we got to do it the third year. So for the last several years I’ve had at least one class that I carry from seventh through ninth and they are terrific students. Just—just fantastic. It’s a real joy to come to school and teach them. And they are ready for high school when they leave. Is there any other school here that’s done that? Not that I know of. Was there—. We just—we started as an experiment and it just happened to click. So anybody ask me, I tell them I got the best job in the school system and I really have. I really have. ’Cause when those UNLV University Libraries Rosamond McDougal 22 students leave here after the third year, I feel like I’m losing my children, m