Skip to main content

Search the Special Collections and Archives Portal

Transcript of interview with Dr. Jack Lund Schofield by Suzanne Becker, January 13, 2009


Download OH_01641_book_o.pdf (application/pdf; 36.38 MB)






In the dusty border town of Douglas, Arizona, Dr. Jack Lund Schofield was born in the family home in 1923. Due to the economic woes of the Great Depression, the Schofield family moved several times until 1937—the year that Jack's father took a position as a tungsten broker and moved his family of five children to Nevada. For Jack, who was ready to start high school, the move from Phoenix to Las Vegas with a small population of 5000 was a shock. However, it did not take the gregarious Jack long to make friends at Las Vegas High School. He played sports and was a Golden Glove boxing champion. As Jack's high school years drew to an end, two major events occurred: he met his future wife and World War II began. He proudly highlights his service as a fighter pilot in both WWII and the Korea conflict, his family genealogy, and his devotion to being an excellent educator, businessman, family man, and politician. In 1995, he earned his doctorate in education at the age of 72. His resume includes being an elected official, serving on the Board of Regents and having a middle school named after him. Jack and his wife, Alene, have resided in the John S. Park Neighborhood for over 50 years and describes his affection for the neighborhood and some of the changes that have occurred.

Digital ID


Physical Identifier



[Transcript of interview with Dr. Jack Lund Schofield by Suzanne Becker, January 13, 2009]. Schofield, Jack Interview, 2009 January 13. OH-01641. [Transcript.] Oral History Research Center, Special Collections & Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada


This material is made available to facilitate private study, scholarship, or research. It may be protected by copyright, trademark, privacy, publicity rights, or other interests not owned by UNLV. Users are responsible for determining whether permissions are necessary from rights owners for any intended use and for obtaining all required permissions. Acknowledgement of the UNLV University Libraries is requested. For more information, please see the UNLV Special Collections policies on reproduction and use ( or contact us at

Standardized Rights Statement

Digital Provenance

Digitized materials: physical originals can be viewed in Special Collections and Archives reading room



Geographic Coordinate

36.17497, -115.13722



An Interview with Dr. Jack Schofield An Oral History Conducted by Claytee D. White Voices of the Historic John S. Park Neighborhood Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas © Voices of the Historic John S. Park Neighborhood University of Nevada Las Vegas Libraries 2010 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV Libraries, Director: Claytee D. White Project Creators: Patrick Jackson and Dr. Deborah Boehm Transcriber and Editor: Laurie Boetcher Editor and Production Manager: Barbara Tabach Interviewers: Suzanne Becker, Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White ii Recorded interviews, transcripts, bound copies and a website comprising the Voices of the Historic John S. Park Neighborhood Oral History Project have been made possible through a grant from the City of Las Vegas Centennial Committee. Special Collections in Lied Library, home of the Oral History Research Center, provided a wide variety of administrative services, support and archival expertise. We are so grateful. This project was the brainchild of Deborah Boehm, Ph.D. and Patrick Jackson who taught at UNLV and resided in the John S. Park Neighborhood. As they walked their community, they realized it was a special place that intersected themes of gender, class, race/ethnicity, religion, sexuality and gentrification. Patrick and Deborah learned that John S. Park had been listed on the National Registry of Historic Places and that original homeowners, local politicians, members of the gay community, Latino immigrants, artists and gallery owners and an enclave of UNLV staff all lived in the neighborhood. Therefore, they decided that the history of this special place had to be preserved, joined with the Oral History Research Center at UNLV Libraries and wrote a grant that was funded by the Centennial Committee. The transcripts received minimal editing that included the elimination of fragments, false starts and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the narrative. These interviews have been catalogued and can be found as non-circulating documents in Special Collections at UNLV's Lied Library. Deborah A. Boehm, Ph.D. Fulbright-Garcia Robles Scholar 2009-2010 Assistant Professor, Anthropology & Women's Studies Patrick Jackson, Professor John S. Park Oral History Project Manager Claytee D. White, Director Oral History Research Center at UNLV Libraries iii 1 Interview with Jack Schofield January 13, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Suzanne Becker Table of Contents Introduction: born in Douglas, AZ (1923), third of six children, traumatic loss of younger brother, family genealogy. 1 Memories of the Great Depression: bread lines, National Guard peacekeepers, moves to Gallup, NM (ca. 1931-1935) and Phoenix, AZ (ca. 1935), attended school in Phoenix, father becomes mining broker and moves family to Las Vegas, NV (1937). 3 First impressions of living in Las Vegas (1937): small population (5000) compared to Phoenix, two schools, attended old Las Vegas High School, played football and boxed, made friends. 4 Stories of hitchhiking to Phoenix, AZ to visit friends and family. 5 Reminisces about family members connected to Las Vegas: Rose Warren, Pat Diskin, Ernest James May and Willie May. 7 Activities in Las Vegas (1937-1941): hanging out at Tips Drive-In downtown, sleigh-riding in Kyle Canyon on Mount Charleston, parties, dances, proms. Close-knit high school population. 8 Continues genealogy of Schofield family in Nevada: grandparents' settlement near Hiko, NV (1899). Working on grandparents' ranch in the summers and hunting mustangs. 9 Remembers meeting and courting future wife in Las Vegas (1940-1941). 11 Graduated from high school and won Golden Gloves championship (1941). 13 World War II begins (1941). Enters BYU and takes aviation cadet exam (1942) to become a fighter pilot. Flies combat in China during WW II. 14 Looking at family photographs and talking about family members. 15 Talks about WWII military service (1942-1946), remains in Air National Guard in Salt Lake City, UT while attending University of Utah (graduates 1949) serves in Korean War as a fighter pilot (1950-1953). 18 Returns to Las Vegas after military service and takes up career as schoolteacher, coach, and school administrator. Lives first at Sierra Vista Drive and Paradise Road (1953-1963), moves to South Eighth Street (1963-1970), builds another home at Eastern and Saint Louis Avenues (1970). 19 Reasons for moving into John S. Park Neighborhood: had a general contracting business, rebuilt home at 1487 South Eighth Street and lived there (1963-1970), built home on Stockton Street and lived there (1970-1973), then moved to current home (1973 to present). Talks about John S. Park Neighborhood and the personalities who lived there. 21 IV Early development of the Strip: hotel/casinos, Bugsy Siegel and the Flamingo, Mob influence. 23 Career in Las Vegas: return from Korean conflict (1953), schoolteacher and coach at Paradise School, begins political career, serves in Nevada State Assembly and Senate (1970-1978), talks about plans for running for U.S. Congress in 2010 and importance of educational funding in Nevada. 24 Acquaintance with mobster David Berman, works as casino cashier (1953) and as a lifeguard (ca. 1954-1955) at the Flamingo, then works at the Riviera as a lifeguard. 27 Comparing old and new Strip: Mob ran casinos like personal businesses. 28 Population growth of Las Vegas beginning in 1937, importance of water and renewable energy to continued growth. 29 Involvement in neighborhood politics in John S. Park Neighborhood and campaign for U.S. Congress (2010). Reflects on inspiration for entering politics: to right the inequities he sees in all aspects of American society. 31 Views on injustice towards African Americans: treatment of black Strip entertainers and creation of Moulin Rouge Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas (1955), prejudice and racial tensions at Las Vegas High School. 34 LDS community in John S. Park Neighborhood: building of the LDS chapel (1953- 1955). 36 Changes in the John S. Park Neighborhood since the 1950s: changing to desert landscaping, growth of Hispanics population in neighborhood, personalities who have moved out of the neighborhood, reasons for remaining in the area, safety of neighborhood. 39 Thoughts on historic designation of John S. Park Neighborhood. 40 Concluding remarks: conversation about entrepreneur George Wright. 41 Preface In the dusty border town of Douglas, Arizona, Dr. Jack Lund Schofield was born in the » family home in 1923. Due to the economic woes of the Great Depression, the Schofield family moved several times until 1937—the year that Jack's father took a position as a tungsten broker and moved his family of five children to Nevada. For Jack, who was ready to start high school, the move from Phoenix to Las Vegas with a small population of 5000 was a shock. However, it did not take the gregarious Jack long to make friends at Las Vegas High School. He played sports and was a Golden Glove boxing champion. As Jack's high school years drew to an end, two major events occurred: he met his future wife and World War II began. He proudly highlights his service as a fighter pilot in both WWII and the Korea conflict, his family genealogy, and his devotion to being an excellent educator, businessman, family man, and politician. In 1995, he earned his doctorate in education at the age of 72. His resume includes being an elected official, serving on the Board of Regents and having a middle school named after him. Jack and his wife, Alene, have resided in the John S. Park Neighborhood for over 50 years and describes his affection for the neighborhood and some of the changes that have occurred. vi ORAL HISTORY RESEARCH CENTER AT UNLV Voices of the Historic John S. Park Neighborhood Use Agreement Name of Narrator: Name of Interviewer: fuL< 7 O nnp '( We, the above named, give to the Oral History Research Center of UNLV, the recorded interview(s) initiated on U - 13/ 9 as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to the University of Nevada Las Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. There will be no compensation for Library Special Collections 4505 Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, Nevada 89154-7010 (702) 895-2222 "1 Interview with Dr. Jack Lund Schofield January 13, 2009 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Suzanne Becker Dr. Schofield, thank you very much for talking with us today. First of all, tell me a little bit about where you're from. When were you born, and where were you born? I was born on April 25, 1923 in Douglas, Arizona, right on the border of Mexico. And two blocks from the border, was our home. My mother birthed me in her bedroom. The doctor's name was Lund, Carl Lund; that's where my middle name comes from, because I was supposed to die when I was born. My chances for survival were slim to none, according to my mother. So he worked on me, whatever he had to do, for about three weeks and brought me back to life, so I'm still existing at age eighty-five. So whatever he did, he did a good job. And why was there [a problem]? Well, I was called a blue baby. So according to what my research has been, the arteries from the lungs to the heart did not connect properly while I was in the womb. And so afterwards it was just a matter of maturing and getting the connection there, and he did whatever to keep me alive while this connection process was taking place in my body. I'm very grateful to Dr. Lund, and my mother gave me his name for my middle name, and I like to use it for that very reason, so I could refer to my mother, who I consider to be one of the finest people that ever lived. She had strong, strict core values, and she tried to instill those core values into my life, as I was growing up. So she did a good job, and I've always felt that love from her and also from my father who fathered six children. I have five siblings. Where are you in the lineup? I'm number three in the lineup. And number four was a son. He died at age two. And there's his picture right over there on the wall. I'm the older one at five years of age (up above that football picture) and he's on the left, to my right, in the picture, and his name was Thomas [Schofield] Junior, and he passed away at age two from pneumonia and measles, a combination that took him out. His little body couldn't survive it. So it just about killed my father because he just lived and breathed his love for that little boy. And I remember my father grieving. It was really interesting. What was your father's name? Thomas Theron Schofield. And he was named after his grandfather, one of his grandfathers, his paternal grandfather. And he was named after him, Thomas, the Thomas came from there, and Thomas Jackson Schofield was his [paternal grandfather's] name. And he married my great-grandmother and she died in childbirth, giving birth to my grandfather, and she was only thirty-two years of age. He was her second child. So if she hadn't have had that second child, my whole line would not be here. Amazing when you think about that. It is. It's a miracle that we're here, the way we are. Survivors. Perseverance. You're right, I've survived, and John S. Park area, historical area [has survived]. I know. Did you grow up, then, in Douglas? I lived to age eight in Douglas. My father was a manager of a J.C. Penney store there in Douglas for fifteen years. And after the [Great] Depression, after the stock market fell, we had the greatest depression in the history of the United States. I was a young boy during that period of time, and I remember the bread lines and I remember the lineup of the National Guard to keep peace in the area we were living. We moved from there to Gallup, New Mexico, and then we lived in Gallup for four years, from the time I was eight years to twelve, and then we moved to Phoenix, Arizona, and I attended the seventh and eighth grade in Phoenix, and then my father became a mining broker, and he brought his family of five children and his wife to Las Vegas [Nevada] so that he could broker this tungsten mine that's a hundred and fifty miles north of Las Vegas, in a place called Rachel [Nevada] which now is [near] an area that they call it Area 51, where the Stealth fighter were stealthily training. So was he working with the [Nevada] Test Site [NTS] at that time? There was no test site at the time. It was 1937 when this happened. So there's been mining in that area. He was prospecting for gold, for silver, or tungsten. At the time, tungsten was plentiful, in the mining area that he had claims on, at a place near Rachel. You lived in Las Vegas though. We lived in Las Vegas. I came here when I was a freshman at Las Vegas High School. I was age fourteen. So we've been here for seventy-two years. So, when you arrived in Las Vegas, having lived in places like Gallup and Douglas, what were your first impressions of living here? Well, at age fourteen, I had a lot of friends over in Phoenix. I had established my friendships in school and so on, and I was really reluctant to move. I did not want to move from my friends that I had made over there. And to me, coming to Las Vegas was like coming to a [small town]. Phoenix then was about ten times larger, about twenty 1 4 times larger than Las Vegas. The Las Vegas population at that time was five thousand people. It's two million now but it was five thousand at that time. There was of course only one elementary school and one high school in Las Vegas. And so I attended the old Las Vegas High School. It's called the Las Vegas Academy now. And I attended classes and I was an athlete. I went out for football, even though I was small. I still love football and I wanted to be a football star, so I played halfback for the Las Vegas High School football team, and I boxed. I fought Golden Gloves. Anytime there was any kind of tournament, I was fighting in the tournaments. And I was very active with other people, and the students, and as a result, I made friends fast and pretty soon I had a lot of friends. But I would go back to Phoenix, to visit with my relatives who lived in Phoenix, and my friends that I had established, you know, before I came over here. But that helped me because I'd go back about once every six months for a two-or-three-day visit and stay. I could stay with my relatives. And then I'd visit my friends, then I'd come back to Las Vegas. But I was able to adjust to Las Vegas and this environment, and as I gained the friendships here, I gradually weaned away from Phoenix. But I wanted to let you know that I would always go by air. They didn't have too much air transportation, so I'd go by ground air, which was with your thumb this way, air you going my way? [Laughing] And how long of a journey was that usually? How long did that take you? It'd take about seven, eight hours if I hitchhiked, and I was pretty lucky, to get rides. And what road went to Phoenix at that time? Not the same one that we have here now, except it goes to Kingman [Arizona], same road to Kingman, but from Kingman it was called Highway 66, Route 66, which still is now a 5 freeway. But you go on 66 towards Flagstaff [Arizona], but in Ash Fork, that's where the junction was, and you'd turn south at Ash Fork and go through Prescott, and then Phoenix. So that's the way the route was. There was usually a lot of traffic on the road so I'd catch rides pretty quick. I was young and foolish for doing it because I was risking [my life], but that was all right. Seems to have worked. I had a lot of courage. And probably a lot of good stories. A lot of them. I spent the night in a little community near Ash Fork called Seligman, and I only had three dollars in my pocket. I used one of the dollars to buy a room for a night's stay, and I used the other two dollars for food. And so the next morning I got up and I was hungry as can be but I didn't have any money. So I got up and I was standing out there with my thumb sticking out, trying to catch a ride, and some young cowboy came up to me and he said, hey, kid, you look kind of hungry. Here's a quarter. At that time, for a quarter you could buy a quart of milk. So I bought a quart of milk and drank that and then went right back on the highway and got a ride right to Phoenix. Feeling good. But those were the stories and the fun part of those experiences. When you first got to Las Vegas, where were you living? What part of town was your family in? North Las Vegas. My father was always a good provider, so he rented a home in North Las Vegas. You know where Jerry's Nugget [Casino] is now? Yeah. OK, just right in the parking lot of Jerry's Nugget, was a street called Glider, and that was the home that my father rented. It was a nice, three-bedroom, one-bath home for his five children. We lived there for about a year and then he bought a home across the street on the east of Jerry's Nugget, and remodeled it and made a lovely home out of a rundown piece of property, and that's where we lived all the way through high school. So I would go to school. We had no busing, of course, and it's quite a trip from Jerry's Nugget up to Las Vegas High School, where it is now, so I would also go by air to school: air you going my way? [Laughing] So you did a lot of hitchhiking. [You were an] expert. I did. Tell me a little bit more about what Las Vegas was like during your high school years and when you guys first got here because I think it's a very different town now. Yes, it is. My wife's aunt, her father's sister, was named Rose Warren, and Rose Warren was married to, we call him Uncle Warren. But anyway, she was one of the historical figures, one of the new people in Las Vegas, and they lived over off of D Street in Westside. At that time there was very few African Americans. It was all a Caucasian neighborhood. And this is late 1930s? In the late thirties, 1937 to 1941. That's when this period is. That's when we moved here, in 1937, which was seventy-two years ago, and I'm eighty-five now. And so, anyway, my wife was a teenager at the time and she would come down to visit her Aunt Rose, and by the way, later, the school district honored her by naming one of the first elementary schools, which still exists, Rose Warren Elementary School. [Rose Warren] was my wife's aunt. And then they honored me later in life by giving my name to a school, the Jack [Lund] Schofield Middle School out on Wigwam and Spencer, near Silverado High School. And then Pat [A.] Diskin Elementary School here, Pat Diskin was my brother-in-law. He was married to my sister Geraldine. So they were married and Pat was our coach. He was like the Jerry Tarkanian of that era. And so he was well known and he was the man, the big man here in Las Vegas. And so he was a football coach? Basketball. He was the basketball coach. He came from the University of Pennsylvania, and he was a teacher at Las Vegas High School. And Harvey Stanford was the football coach, was my football coach, and Pat Diskin was also assistant football coach. And so we've got three schools that are in the family, that have family names on them. And also of interest is Rose Warren had two sons, and their names were Ernest [James] May and Willie May, and there is a street over there by Rancho [Drive] and Washington [Avenue] that is named Ernest May Lane, because Ernest and his brother both were cops, and they were killed on duty. [Note: According to Asphalt Memories: Origins of some of the Street Names of Clark County by Mark P. Hall-Patton (2009), Ernest James May was the first Las Vegas policeman killed in the line of duty (1933).] And so we have family activity, way back then, historically. Very much a legacy here, and particularly within education too, it sounds like. So, what types of things did you guys do during high school? What was the development of the downtown area at that time? 8 Well, the development of the downtown area, the main thoroughfare of where gaming started, gaming became legal in the 1932 session of the legislature, '33, right in there. [Note: Gaming was legalized in the State of Nevada in 1931.] So they had clubs, casinos, right on Fremont Street. There was no Strip. Las Vegas Boulevard was called Fifth Street. So we had Fifth Street and there were no casinos out there. What was on Fifth Street at the time, anything? Motels, restaurants, drive-ins. There was a drive-in called Tips that we used to frequent. Where is that located on the Strip? It's right over here, just through the block here, which was way out of town at the time. And the Foley family ([after whom] they named the federal building, the Foley Building), there were five sons, and they all became attorneys. And their father was a lawyer also, and he became a judge, Judge [Roger D.] Foley. That's why they named the federal building after him. And his brothers [sons?], Joseph Foley was one of them, Joe was my age, and he was one of my sidekicks, and we would frequent Tips Barbeque all the time. That was our favorite hangout there. And then the other entertainment we had was at Mount Charleston, Kyle Canyon, because we could go up there and sleigh-ride, and if you were wealthy enough to have skis and know how to ski, you could ski there, but mainly just sleigh rides. Was the ski area up there at that time? No. OK. You could just take your skis out there. Right. The ski area was later, and that was over in Lee Canyon. There's Kyle Canyon first and then Lee Canyon is the next. But they did develop the ski run up there because it 1 9 was higher elevation and more runs they could make for skiing. And in the 1960s, I had all my children (we had six children), and all my children, I bought them all skis. I bought a family pack and had them all learn how to ski up in Lee Canyon, in the sixties, as they were growing up. But those were the fun things in the area. And then the others were the parties and the girl-reverse dances and the junior proms, typically of what goes now, at that time. Were you guys close? Was the high school population a close-knit population? Very close. It was just like a large family, a large extended family, your school. Your school was everything, and all your life was all centered around school. And then in the summers, my grandfather, William Jonas Schofield, the one that was born and my great-grandmother died giving birth to him, he married Sarah Jane Udall, from the Udall family in Utah and Arizona. Senator Mark Udall [Democrat, Colorado] lfom Colorado is my cousin, and his brother [Senator] Tom Udall [Democrat, New Mexico] in New Mexico, a congressman now, is my cousin, his brother. Stewart Udall who was the Secretary of the Interior [1961-1969], he was my cousin. And so all the Udalls are my relatives through my grandmother, Sarah Jane Udall. But she and her husband, William Jonas Schofield, in 1899, moved to Alamo, Nevada, only they settled in a little [community nearby]. Eight miles up from Alamo is a settlement called Hiko, Nevada. You have to go through Hiko to go to Rachel. But they had family and huge ranches out there that my grandfather settled and created. So I would go up in the summer and work for him on the ranch because I got my free room and board if I would work and pitch hay and help them on the ranch this way, milk the cows, 10 slop the hogs, and do all the things that you do on a ranch. So that was my summer entertainment. How did you enjoy that? I loved it because on the weekends we would go hunt mustangs. So we'd saddle up our horses, our good horses that we had, and we'd go over to Delamar Flat, which is across the one mountain range from Hiko, and we would hunt those mustangs. And these mustangs would gather in great big herds, so we would cut off some of the herds and run them up a box canyon and then we had a corral fixed up so they couldn't get out, after we ran them in the box canyon, and then we would take and cull out the best ones, and keep them for ourselves and break them and tame them and use them for riding horses, those that we wanted to keep. The others we just let them go back on the range and be free. Free spirits. But it was fun because when you were chasing the mustangs, you're riding as fast as that horse would gallop, and it was just the biggest rush you could ever have. And it prepared me for going in World War II and flying in combat as a fighter pilot, because we were rushing after those mustangs. But that was the fun part. I'm writing a book now and I'm calling it "The Audacity of Hunting Mustangs as a Teenager in Nevada." That's one of the books I'm writing. So it's just fun. Beautiful memories of the fun things that you did. Absolutely. So this was while you were in high school. While I was in high school. Right. And now, you graduated high school in 1941? Uh huh, '41. And what came after that? What was next? ^ 1 1 Well, in August of 1941 I was eighteen years old, and my wife was nineteen. So now, let's back up a minute. When did you meet your wife? How did you two meet? We met in the Sweet Shop where the Golden Nugget [Hotel and Casino] is now. There was a sweet shop there? The Golden Nugget is on Fremont Street. Where the Golden Nugget buffet is, was about the location of the Sweet Shop. And next to the Sweet Shop was the Boulder Drugstore. And next to the Boulder Drugstore was the Oasis Cafe. OK. And that's down on like First [Street] or Second Street by Fremont? That was the 200 block of Fremont. Second Street. That's between First and Second Street on Fremont. That's Casino Center Drive now. And then on the next block is the Four Queens [Hotel and Casino]. By the way, the Four Queens was named after four girls that Benny [Ben] Goffstein had, his four daughters. And I taught them all how to swim, when I was a lifeguard at the Flamingo Hotel [and Casino] in the 1950s. And that's kind of fun because his daughters became schoolteachers, and two of his daughters taught school at the school that has my name on it [Jack Lund Schofield Middle School]. It is a small, small world. [Laughing] It is, isn't it? But anyway, I went in there after football practice one day when I was seventeen years old. We'd usually stop in the Sweet Shop. That was our hangout. And it was run by a man by the name of Fair Lawrence, and he catered to young people to come in to have sandwiches and Cokes and malts and milkshakes. It was a food place and a hangout. 12 So I went in there to hang out after football practice one day when I was seventeen years old, in September of 1940, and sitting across the booth from where I sat was my [future] wife. At the time she was eighteen years old. And so I started getting acquainted with her, flirting with her. And so we met and we visited for about two hours. And then she had to go back to Utah where her home was. She was on her way to Utah. She was visiting her aunt, Rose Warren. And so about nine months later she came back to Las Vegas to work. Because she was from Utah and was working in Cedar City [Utah], and they paid her a dollar a day for being a waitress, plus her tips, and she was making good money, and a bus driver one day told my wife, he says, why don't you go to Las Vegas? They're paying three dollars a day there, plus your tips. So she believed him and she came to Las Vegas and that's where I met her again. That was in May of 1941. What was she doing here? She went to work for Becky Jones, who ran the Boulder Drugstore food counter. Becky's husband was Sheriff Glen [C.] Jones. And so it was all small-town and we all knew one another. So anyway, she worked for Becky, and we courted for that three-month period from May to August [1941], and then I finally talked her into getting married. She tried not to get married though because she said I was too young. You were eighteen at the time? I was eighteen. And I said, I want to get married to you, and she said, no, you're too young. And I says, I'm not too young, and I kept coaxing her, and she finally consented. But she said, you'll give me trouble, being so young. She was a very wise nineteen-year- m 13 old girl. So I finally talked her into it and so we were married then, and that was sixty-seven years ago. So sixty-seven years with the same man and woman. And you knew right then and there. Well, I could see that she had values. She had certain core values that could make a marriage work. And were you still in school at the time or had school ended? I was still in school. When she came back, it was in May [1941], and then I graduated the first of June. So you were just finishing. Just finishing high school. And that's when I was fighting Golden Gloves also. And in June of that year, I won the Golden Gloves championship of the western states. And then I was invited to go to Chicago [Illinois] to fight in the Olympics. But on December the seventh, 1941, the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor [Hawaii], which changed everything for everybody, because then I had to go in the draft, and sign up for the draft, and they were going to draft me into the military. So before they did, I went to school up at BYU [Brigham Young University] in the following fall of '42, in September of '42, and in October of 1942 I took the aviation cadet exam to go in and be a pilot. They were taking anybody from age eighteen to twenty-six, and I fell in that category because I was nineteen years old at the time. So they called me and I went through training in the aviation cadet program and became a fighter pilot. And then I went to China and flew combat in China. What were your thoughts about going into the military at that time? Well, you couldn't think of anything. 14 [Dr. Schofield takes another call at this point.] So we were just talking about you getting into the military and you'd taken your fighter pilot training. And I took my fighter pilot training. The thing that I was impressed [with] more about the fighter pilot training than anything else was the amount of confidence they placed in each of us as a fighter pilot; the thing that they drove into our minds is that there's only three answer that you can give anyone in the military, and that's "yes, sir," "no, sir," "no excuse, sir." In other words, whatever mission you were assigned on, you could not renege on, you could not fail, you could not say no to. You went on every mission that they sent you on. And that's why and how we won World War II. Because we listened to Winston Churchill when he made his famous nine-word speech to his graduating class, which was, "You must never give up, never, never, never, never." And they instilled that in us so that we could do the right thing, so we could win that war, which we did, of course. Now, what made you decide to do the fighter pilot training? My decision was this. I was either going to be drafted to go in the military—if I was drafted, they would place me wherever they wanted me, and I might wind up in the infantry carrying a gun, a rifle, and walking and sleeping in mud and rain—or I could be trained as a fighter pilot, and fly back to my base after flying a mission, and get in between clean sheets. That was my choice. I had to fight a war, regardless. I might as well choose what I was going to do. And my choice was to fly as a fighter pilot, because there was a lot of glamour to it, too. There was a lot of hype that they gave us, you know, if we were a fighter pilot, and they treated us unusually nice, if you survived. If you could 1 15 survive the missions, they treated you nice. And that's what I looked like, right up there [gesturing to photograph on wall]. See that picture there? Above you and your brother? Yeah. Now see the bottom picture there? That's when I was playing football for Las Vegas High School. That was a football picture. The others, I'm five years old and with my two-year- old brother who passed away. Good pictures. Come over here and I'll show you. [Walking over to another part of the room.] Thi