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Transcript of interview with Ruth Annette Mills by Lisa Gioia-Acres, November 20, 2008

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2008-11-20

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Ruth Annette Mills was born and raised in Washington, D.C. She recalls the early years during WWII, her father's cancer and radium treatment under Blue Cross Blue Shield, his passing when she was nineteen, and her marriage that same year. Ruth and her husband and family lived in Georgia, Texas, and Maryland before coming to Las Vegas in 1968. She worked as a typist for the Office of Education at one point and did volunteer work for her church, the Cub Scouts, and the League of Women Voters. She also worked as a clerk-typist for the Clark County School District, and eventually became a teacher through the Teacher Corps program. She graduated in 1975 and was hired to teach 6th grade at CVT Gilbert. The school integration program was just beginning when Ruth was first hired as a teacher. She held the position of facilitator and recalls how angry parents were when they learned their children had to be bussed to sixth grade centers. Having been involved through her church with the Civil Rights Movement in other states, she was disappointed with the racist attitudes she encountered in Las Vegas. Ruth's involvement with health care began when her daughter-in-law developed kidney stones and was denied treatment. In 1993 she started the Nevada Health Care Reform Project through the League of Women Voters in order to support Bill Clinton's health plan. Fifteen years later, over 100 organizations had come on board to support the League's coalition in favor of Clinton's plan, and her fondest wish is that one day Universal Health Care will be available to all Americans.

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    Mills, Ruth Annette Interview, 2008 November, 20. OH-01305. [Transcript.] Oral History Research Center, Special Collections & Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada

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    An Interview with Ruth Annette Mills An Oral History Conducted by Lisa Gioia-Acres Heart to Heart Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ©Heart to Heart Oral History Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2009 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Directory: Claytee D. White Editor: Gloria Homol Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Emily Powers, Lisa Gioria-Acres, Claytee D. White These recorded interviews and transcripts have been made possible through the generosity of Dr. Harold Boyer and the Boyer Foundation. The Oral History Research Center enabled students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. Participants in the Heart to Heart Oral History Project thank the university for the support given that allowed an idea of researching early health care in Las Vegas the opportunity to flourish. All transcripts received minimal editing that included the elimination of fragments, false starts and repetitions in order to enhance the researcher's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases, photographic images accompany the collection and have been included in the bound edition of the interview. Claytee D. White, Project Director Director, Oral History Research Center University of Nevada Las Vegas - University Libraries Table of Contents Early life in Washington, D.C.; background on parents; comments on Blue Cross Blue Shield going from non-profit to for-profit status; college days; work and volunteer experiences; coming to Las Vegas, 1968 1-5 Early memories of Las Vegas; office work at CVT Gilbert ES; joining League of Women Voters (LWV) under Jean Ford's presidency; brief history of LWV; integration of schools focus for LWV; enrolling in Teacher Corps to earn teaching degree; graduation in 1975; hired as sixth grade teacher at CVT Gilbert; mention of Edna Hinman, principal; facilitating parents' understanding of bussing students to sixth grade centers; disappointment in racist attitudes in Las Vegas; involvement in health care issues initiated by daughter-in-law's health and insurance problems 6-10 League of Women Voters back President Clinton's health plan; started Nevada Health Care Reform Project, 1993; mention of Pat Van Betten, RN, Gilda Howze, AARP representative, Dina Titus and Barbara Buckley as supporters of new health care plan; examples of patients' rights violations and the need for Patients' Bill of Rights; Patient Protection Act passed around 1998; celebration held at home of Cynthia and Don Bunch 11-15 Patients' right to appeal insurance decisions bolstered by passage of External Review Bill; second mention of Cynthia Bunch, RN, in regard to patient appeals; Valerie Rosalin noted as director of the Office of Consumer Health Assistance, established through legislation by LWV; further comments on the League of Women Voters and its support of the health care reform project it initiated; mention of Larry Mathias, lobbyist, and John Sasser, attorney; still involved as state health chairperson for LWV 16-20 Opinions on Nevada's status in health care; mention of awards received; mention of Michael Moore (director); award for women's role model from Frankie Sue Del Pappa (Attorney General for Nevada); comments on motivation to raise consciousness through church and League of Women Voters; closing comments on rising to leadership roles and Universal Health Care 21-24 iv Preface Ruth Annette Mills was born and raised in Washington, D.C. She recalls the early years during WWII, her father's cancer and radium treatment under Blue Cross Blue Shield, his passing when she was nineteen, and her marriage that same year. Ruth and her husband and family lived in Georgia, Texas, and Maryland before coming to Las Vegas in 1968. She worked as a typist for the Office of Education at one point and did volunteer work for her church, the Cub Scouts, and the League of Women Voters. She also worked as a clerk-typist for the Clark County School District, and eventually became a teacher through the Teacher Corps program. She graduated in 1975 and was hired to teach 6th grade at CVT Gilbert. The school integration program was just beginning when Ruth was first hired as a teacher. She held the position of facilitator and recalls how angry parents were when they learned their children had to be bussed to sixth grade centers. Having been involved through her church with the Civil Rights Movement in other states, she was disappointed with the racist attitudes she encountered in Las Vegas. Ruth's involvement with health care began when her daughter-in-law developed kidney stones and was denied treatment. In 1993 she started the Nevada Health Care Reform Project through the League of Women Voters in order to support Bill Clinton's health plan. Fifteen years later, over 100 organizations had come on board to support the League's coalition in favor of Clinton's plan, and her fondest wish is that one day Universal Health Care will be available to all Americans. v 1 This is Lisa Gioia-Acres. Today is November 20th, 2008. I am here with Ruth Annette Mills to conduct an oral history interview for the Heart to Heart oral history project for the University of Nevada Las Vegas. Hi — Annette? Or should I call you Ruth? I always say my friends call me Annette and people I don't really know call me Ruth. What would you prefer for this interview? You can say Ruth because that's what I've done in the health care arena. Okay. So Ruth Annette Mills and I are going to discuss her involvement in the health care industry here in Las Vegas. But before we do that, I wondered if you would share with me just a little bit about your early life? And be as detailed as you feel comfortable being. Well, as it relates to health care? No. Where did you grow up? Mom and dad? Siblings? I grew up in Washington, D.C. I have a brother and two sisters. I remember World War II. People didn't have cars then. Gas was rationed. My father worked for the naval gun factory. So he was a war worker. My mother stayed home. When I was about 15 I guess my father — they found out he had cancer. And he was going to die in six months. But my grandmother couldn't - this was before health insurance. My grandmother could not accept it. So she found a doctor who was doing research and would use him as a guinea pig, really. And that was in the early days of using radium I guess to reduce the size of the -- they said the cancer was really big, the size of a grapefruit, in his intestines. So they didn't even bother to take it out or do anything. They just put him back and said that's it. So anyway, she found a doctor at George Washington University who would take him as a patient. Do you remember what year this was? This would have been in the early 50s. He died in 1952. So probably '48, '49 because he lived about three years then after that. But in reflection he would have been better off if she had let him go when they first diagnosed it because he was very sick and he had to wear a colostomy bag. And he was a very clean person. It was not good, you know. The quality of life was very poor at that time. What did the radium treatments do for him? 2 Well, I really don't remember that part. I think they must have cut it out, removed it because he wore an intentional bag. However, an interesting fact is that he was one of the first people to receive health insurance through their employer. The federal government provided Blue Cross Blue Shield. And so there was no expense involved with any of his illness. We did have a home. And in those days people could sell their homes, which they could do today, to pay for medical expenses. But we were fortunate. We didn't have any problems on that. In fact, there was a cancer society then. And they provided bandages and some little things like that, too. What were your mother and father's names, mom's maiden name as well? She was a Lowe. L-O-W? E. What was her first name? Sarah, which is what I put on the paper. But that's okay. And how about dad's? Francis. Mills? No, no. Truitt. Francis Truitt. Yeah. I was a Truitt. How did you spell Truitt? T-R-U-I-T-T. Okay. So what was that experience like for you and in your memory of seeing your dad go through that? And how did it affect your eventual interest in the health care field? Well, it didn't make me want to be a nurse or a doctor. I think it gave me a sense of compassion for people who have terminal illnesses or just illness. You know, I've always wished that I had the gift to lay my hands on somebody and heal them. I wish I could do that. But I don't have that gift. So I think maybe out of all of that -- because I certainly felt bad about my father dying. I was 18 -- 19, actually - by the time he passed away. And I got married later that year. I was married to my husband for 37 years before he passed away. Then he was with Blue Cross Blue 3 Shield. So I testified awhile back when Blue Cross Blue Shield wanted to go — oh, I can't think of my words today. They didn't want to conduct business the same way that they had for all these years, which was — what do you call it? — oh, help me out with the term, when somebody owes the public and then they want to change and become a business on their own. Catholic hospitals, religious things start out this way. Nonprofit; that's the word I'm trying to think of. Anyway, when Blue Cross Blue Shield wanted to become no longer nonprofit, for profit, they wanted to become for profit, then there were hearings here in front of the insurance commissioner. And I testified that I had been with them at that point in time for 50 years. I had been a client because I kept it. We got married. I had it. With my father I was covered. And so I was covered and I'm still covered today. Although I have Medicare, I have Blue Cross Blue Shield as my supplement. And it's been good. It's been a good health insurance company. So I personally don't have any complaints about the health care system. But if I have any sense of compassion, it's for those people who don't have any health insurance and are being — let me think of a nice way to put this. You can be as descriptive as you like. Well, I don't want that for all posterity. But they're not being taken care of. And this recent thing about UMC not caring for cancer patients ~ we've been saying this for a while. If you can't afford health insurance, you die. So I'm getting ahead of it. Before we get too far ahead, tell me about your early married life. Did you stay in Washington, D.C., and did you work? Well, obviously not. I was a junior at George Washington University when we got married. And what was your major? Business administration. And I hated economics. I started out as a political science major. And then I said I'll go blind if I have to read all these books. So I'll change --1 wanted to do something where I could make a decent salary. And I was not going to be a teacher. I could have gone to Wilson Teachers College for next to nothing. But, no, I worked really hard and made enough money to pay my tuition every year to go to GW so I could get a degree in something where I could make money. So then I gave that up and got married. 4 He was in the military. Then he got out. So we did a little traveling, not a whole lot. He was down at Fort Gordon in Georgia for a while. And then we went to El Paso for some different stints. But we always came back. And we lived in the suburbs in Maryland near Andrews Air Force Base, Camp Springs, Maryland, before we moved here, which was in 1968. So we had started a family. We have three children. And they were not teenagers yet, but they were getting up close to that. And did you work throughout? Oh, no, no. I was not a teacher. No. I did do some work. You know, everything is government. Like in the summers when I — before I got married I worked for the government offices, different ones. I worked for the Office of Education for a while, which was interesting. I worked for — the Kennedys were involved with disabled children. I think the mentally retarded if I remember correctly. And I worked for this office. I was a typist. They would get inquiries from people about their children. And this office had these doctors, Ph.D. people to respond. So they would dictate letters and I typed up letters and sent them to people, which was an interesting job. Actually, I had forms and stuff. And so I did the letters for them most of the time. But it was fun. It was just nine to three while my children were in school. And I've always worked a lot in the church. In fact, I'll invite you. On December the 14th, 2008,1 will have been a member of the Daughters of the King, which is a religious order in the Episcopal Church, for 50 years. Congratulations. Wow. I invite you to come. Pat's been invited. I don't know who all will come. I'll give you an invitation before you leave. Terrific. I'll just circle that and make sure to remind me. So I've always been involved with some kind of volunteer work. I was a Cub Scout leader. We were into Scouts. As a member of the order we do a lot of for the clergy and work in the church. And I always wanted to be a League of Women Voters member because I thought they were intelligent women and got a lot accomplished in the world. What was your first involvement? How did you first become aware ~ I didn't join until I came here. 5 But how did you first become aware of them? I read about them, heard about them and the things that they would do, you know, how they would get legislation passed. I knew that it was something I wanted to be a part of. At this time of your life were you interested in the political? Well, not the way I am now. I mean I had my favorite candidates and the ones that I wanted — Did you and your husband discuss politics? Oh, my husband did. And my family, we discussed politics and religion all the time. That was what we did at the table with any meal. And he was very astute and very ~ not involved to the extent he's out politicking for candidates. But he knew what was going on. He knew foreign affairs. I just didn't have that much of an interest in it. But we talked politics all the time. Were you and your husband on similar ground as far as political ideas? Oh, yeah, definitely we were. We were like one. He was a wonderful man. I was young. He was three years older than me, and he helped me grow up. It's like we grew together. As you'll learn later on when I tell you more about me, then you'll know more. So I understand then you became a teacher. You want to know about that part? I do. Talk about your life as a teacher. Well, my children were teenagers by that point. But we weren't happy with the school system here. So our two boys went away to school. So before we talk about that, you've got to tell me how you got to Las Vegas. We thought that the desert here would be like El Paso, but it's not. It's a different kind of desert. We had been there a couple of times. Anyway, my husband worked with someone who had transferred to Washington from here, the Test Site. And he said, oh, how wonderful. He thought it was just a great place. So my husband, well, why don't we go out there and spend three years and then go somewhere else? He wanted to move. He wanted to move around. We didn't really do that in his lifetime. But he had this desire to do that. So he applied and we came out here. And we bought this house. Where did he apply and where did he work? Well, at that time it was the Weather Bureau. He worked for the Weather Bureau. They called it 6 the Weather Bureau. They changed its name and, I don't know, it became something else later on. So he worked with them and took care of their equipment. He was an electronic technician person and he knew all about ~ he could fix anything. And I don't believe I asked what your husband's name was? Charles. But you said they changed your husband's name to work for the Weather Bureau? Huh-uh. The name of the Weather Bureau changed. I'm sorry. No, no. That's my fault for — Yeah. And then he went to — well, I think from the beginning it was always secret. He didn't know what he was doing. He couldn't tell anybody, not that I cared. But he was always joking about it that it's secret work out at the Test Site. Oh, so he worked out there. What year did you move to Las Vegas? Sixty-eight. Yeah. When we drove down Fremont Street it was so hot. It was August. And those lights — and I said how long are we going to be in hell, because I was sure that's where we were. I had to get — it was a culture shock. I had to get used to the casinos, people gambling all night and all day. It was something else. So while your husband was out working, you decided to go back to school to become a teacher? No. I started to tell you when we put our two boys in private school, we needed the money to help pay for it. So I went to work for the school district. And I worked in the office. I mean I didn't have my degree, so I couldn't work as a teacher. I did have a background and I could type and do that, so I worked in the school office just across Rancho at CVT Gilbert. A friend of mine was in personnel and she helped me get the job. It was hard to get a job then. I always felt like that I looked too much like back east or something because I wasn't flamboyant enough to get into the gaming industry, you know, to get an office-type job. I went for interviews and I just couldn't get a job. Anyway, she helped me get a job. So I worked there. By that time I had joined the league and I was nominally involved. And there were some really neat people. Jean Ford, if you've ever heard Jean Ford's name, was president of the league. And I remember going to a police-citizens seminar thing she held and I was so impressed with 7 her. As I said she was the president at that time. So I joined the League of Women Voters. I was nominally involved because I still had the children and I was involved with — other things. Let s put it that way. And there was Dorothy. They named a school after her. Oh, and there were a lot of people that were just such good workers in the league. Can you tell me about the League of Women Voters, what its purpose is? Well, let me give you history on this. I believe it was 1920 when women got the vote. Was it 20, 1920? The women that worked on that, once they got it, and said, well, women don't know how to vote. They need to be educated. So the league was started based on the premise that people need to be educated voters. And so that's what the league does. It educates the voters. Number one, it educates them that they need to vote, that you've got to register and you need to vote. But, number two; they have positions on just about every issue you can think about from gun control to environment to health care. And that's what I've worked under, the health care position. So it's an educational — now, they also do lobbying for their issues. Once they take consensus through the whole nation on a particular issue, then we do have lobbyists and they do lobby. But not everybody wants to be that involved with an issue. But the local leagues and all leagues would have programs from time to time. It varies. We have one once a month. And I've got to get some information to send you a form and get you to join league. But every month we'll have a program on some issue. Month before last it was really interesting on taxes. Jon Ralston did the narrating I guess. But they had these four really great people who knew -- somebody from Chamber of Commerce, a lady from the Nevada Taxpayers Association and a couple other guys who have done studies on taxes. You're going to learn more than you ever wanted to know, Lisa. I'm sorry. But you get me talking about history « Talk to me about what issues were important to the league to address back when you first started? Okay. And I started to tell you that. It was the integration of the schools. NAACP had sued the school district to integrate because they weren't going to do it. And I remember I was new to them and they said, oh, we want you to go on the stand when we have the trial because you just look like ~ whatever. I looked like back east. I don't know how else to say that. I was not the 8 typical Las Vegan. I need to see a photograph of you way back then so I'll tell you because I'm from back east. Well, I don t know what it — at the time. And there weren't that many people here then. But they never did get around to calling me because the league filed an amicus curiae brief, which is a friend of the court. And they had meetings around town to find out what people wanted to do, in terms of integration of the schools. That was my first involvement with it. I went to some meetings and stuff, but I didn't really do a whole heck of a lot else until really much later. So when did you become a teacher? How did that process take place? Okay. Now, I went to work for the school district. And I worked there ~ how many years? I can't remember. Not that long, maybe three or four years. And I saw this advertisement that they had something called Teacher Corps that you could apply for, which paid a little stipend and also paid for your school. And so I could afford to do it. I couldn't have afforded to pay for the school and give up my salary prior to that, and I thought, well, what a great opportunity. So I went into Teacher Corps. It was a two-year program and every night I said I quit and the next morning I said I'll give it one more day. It was so demanding, so demanding. I took 17 credits a semester. I worked 20 hours in the school. And I was supposed to have a community project, which was a Girl Scout troop. And I had three teenagers. It was hard. It was hard. But I did it. And it was all a range of ages from - well, I graduated in 1975. So it was over 20 years later from the time I started GW. And it allowed you to become a teacher with the two years' training. That's great. Well, that's what it was. We were supposed to be agents of change in the school system. But they wanted us — they kept having us take everything that was new. I mean economics, disability — what do you call it? — Special Ed. I mean they had all of these ~ they kept adding courses. That's why we had such big loads. And we had to have, of course, a number of credits. I think there were about 20 people in the program, all ages. This really good friend of mine that I still have as a friend, even though she's much younger, were in the program together. And she was probably just going into her junior year. I was actually a junior, but I had to take all the courses that they offered. I had more than enough to get a degree in terms of credit. But I had to take what they offered. 9 So where did you go to school and work? UNLV. I'm sorry. I said that wrong. Where did you work as a teacher? You mean after I got my degree? Yeah. Okay. Well, my old principal picked me off the list. And so I went back to CVT Gilbert, where I had worked in the office, which was kind of nice because I knew the teachers. And I just went around and asked each one give me some good advice. And what grade did you teach? Sixth grade. It was a sixth grade center, which was the integration project. That was what was finally decided that all sixth grade students would be bused to the former black schools in the black neighborhoods. And all the one-through-five children would be bused to white neighborhoods, which was totally unfair. But that was the way it was set up. And if you're going to integrate the schools at that time, I think that was the only answer. I don't know what else they could have done. And, actually, I worked for Dr. Edna Hinman, who had - oh, before the integration law was passed, she had ~ it was a special school. And people could volunteer their children. This was at Gilbert. I can't remember what they called it. But it was special and they had better teachers, sort of like the magnet programs now in the high schools. And it was that type. They had, you know, the best teachers and all. So they got white people to bring their children there. And my daughter went there in fifth and sixth grade. Of course, in sixth grade then is when it switched over. So I was working there at the beginning of the integration program. I was actually working there before the law went into effect. And then when the law went into effect, I was called the facilitator and I met the angry parents when they first came in. And they were angry people. They did not want to send their children over there. They had this impression that their child was going to be in there with all these black children. Well, ten percent of the population was black. Ten percent in the whole city was black. And so in a school of five, 600, however many it was, ten percent are going to be black. It's not like your child - you know. Granted it's 10 in a black neighborhood ™ it was. But nevertheless -- So during this time of your life while you're on this new career path, you're still involved with the League of Women Voters. And where are you heading in that realm while you were in the — Well, let me say this, too. Prior to coming to Las Vegas, our church was involved with the Civil Rights Movement and we had the riots there, if you were old enough to know when they had the riots there. Anyway, it would have been in the 60s. That's when the Civil Rights Movement was at its peak I suppose. And so we were involved with that before we moved here. And I was very disappointed in this community, you know, with their attitudes, their racist attitudes. So I was glad to be involved with the league and what they were doing and at this school. In fact ~ Then how did your involvement go from, say, the integration and civil rights issues into the health care? Well, it's very simple. My daughter-in-law is English. And she married my son and they live here. She was a teacher in England. And she worked really hard and went to UNLV, did everything they wanted, got her teacher certificate, her degree and everything here. She went to work and during the first month she developed a kidney stone. She was in horrible pain and they had no health insurance. The school district said you have to work a whole month before your health insurance kicks in, so her doctor said, well, if you don't have health insurance, there's nothing I can do. And I said this is ridiculous. He gave her pain medication. And finally he said, well, okay, I'll put a stint in there so you can work and you won't be in such horrible pain. But you've got to get rid ~ they were too big to pass. And so I said this is not right. This is not right that people who need medical care can't get it, people who don't have any money, who don't have any health insurance. And that's when I decided that I was going to work on health care. I was already in the league. Right. So talk about that. How did they address that topic? Well, finally, as far as she's concerned, just to finish that part of the story ~ Yeah, please. The school district insurance kicked in and she had some kind of laser thing. They blast them and do something. So that was that. But I was willing to pay, to mortgage my house and to pay 1 1 to have it done. And the laser-blasting place says, well, we don't accept any money. You have to have insurance in order to do that. So I called the company in Georgia that did it and I said, Can you give us a discount or anything? No, no, no. It was such an unpleasant experience all the way around with the insurance, with everything. So it thoroughly convinced me. Well, then about that time the league was doing a national consensus on health care. This would have been in the early 90s. And their position basically is universal health care. Some people don't like me to use that term. But what they decided was they wanted health care for everybody even if it meant raising money by raising taxes, which was and even today is still a somewhat radical opinion in some people's minds. But not mine. But I've been working under that since they took that position. And this was not just our local league. This was the whole nation, all leagues coming to consensus. About that time Clinton's health plan came on the table. The league, along with the NEA (National Education Association) and a lot of other organizations, supported his plan. And they asked us to get in coalition with organizations in our community that would support it. So that's when I started the Nevada Health Care Reform Project. I had a league health committee. I think I was president of the league at that time. I'm not sure of my dates on that. I'm pretty sure I was because I had to know all the issues and I had to testify on all the issues. Anything that league takes a position on, the president has to be - you know, one day I was testifying for the county commissioners. And one morning I testified on one thing and in the afternoon it was a totally different topic. And I thought they were going to say that woman is crazy; she can't possibly know enough to testify on both issues. But I knew enough. But anyway — So what year was the Nevada Health Care Reform Project established? I think we're saying 1993. I think that's what I — And what was its position? Okay. Well, it was to support Bill Clinton's health plan. And we started out with - I don't know how much detail you want on this kind of stuff. Whatever you feel comfortable talking about. All right. I had a league health committee. And so we sent letters to every organization that we 12 thought might be interested in support of a health care plan because there were problems then. That was the beginning of the HMOs, which were supposed to solve this. So there were problems then with the health care system. Let's see. Where am I? Okay. So we called a meeting and we invited all these people and met at Charleston Library in one of their rooms. We had AARP. And I guess we invited the nurses. Pat was one of the early — Pat Van Betten. Uh-huh. We didn't have the doctors. We had the nurses. And we had — oh, I don't know — maybe a dozen or more. I think we might have had some union people there. Yeah, because AF of L, CIO, Nevada Education and, you know, some of the ones that were at national coalition I called to come for a local one. And we got a big sign and put it on the side of a bus, Nevada Health Care Reform Project. I still have it. And we went around to four congress people's offices and said we want the health care plan. You know, we want it now. We want health care change now. It was fun. I like to do stuff like that. Anyway, so that was the beginning. We got off to like a bang, you know, with that. Well, then the plan failed. And I remember that September — well, we met every month. The coalition met every month. But we weren't very big, you know, maybe a dozen or so. I remember the woman from AARP who said what are we going to do now? You know, the plan failed. I said, well, we're going to work in Nevada. And so we did. That was when the project really got off its feet I guess. But I have to tell you the same woman -- her name was Gilda Howze and she was ~ you know, AARP was kind of militant. They were the White Panthers at one point in history, the militant seniors. Anyway, she was at this first meeting of the coalition. And Ann -- oh, she's at Sunrise. She used to be national president of PTA. I'm sorry. My brain is not so nonfunctional as it is today. That is okay. Ann, Ann, Ann. It'll come to me eventually. You know why old people take a long time is because we have so much stored in our brains that we have to go back a long way. And you're asking me to go historically. But anyway, she came to that meeting representing the hospital association. I had invited them. And they had taken out a full-page ad in the paper against Clinton's plan. And we're 13 going around telling our names and who we are. All of a sudden Gilda Howze from AARP said I know who you are. You're with the hospital association. And she tore into that woman. And I thought, well, this is the end of this coalition. It will neve