Transcript of interview with Renee Marchant Rampton by Dr. Caryll Batt Dziedziak, September 25, 2015

F w LiS~ kl<& 20!5~ Renee Marchant Rampton An oral history Interviews conducted by Dr. Caryll Batt Dziedziak Women's Research Institute of Nevada Las Vegas Women Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas 2015 © NSHE, Women's Research Institute of Nevada, 2015 Produced by: Las Vegas Women Oral History Project Women's Research Institute of Nevada, UNLV Dr. Joanne L. Goodwin, Director Dr. Caryll Batt Dziedziak, Interviewer and Editor Annette Amdal and Kirsten Hicks, Transcribers This interview and transcript have been made possible through the Foundation at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas and the research efforts of the Women's Research Institute of Nevada (WRIN). Located at UNLV within the College of Liberal Arts, WRIN is a statewide research institute with programs that add to the body of knowledge on women and girls in the state. WRIN has housed the oral history project since 1999. The specific goal of the oral history project is to acquire the narratives of Nevadans whose lives provide unique information on the development of the state and in particular, southern Nevada. In addition, the oral history project enables students and faculty to work together to generate these first-person narratives. The participants in this project extend their appreciation to UNLV for providing an opportunity for this project to flourish. The text of this transcript received minimal editing. These measures include the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetition. Additionally, responses from multiple interviews were grouped according to the subject matter discussed. The editing served to retain both the narrator's style of spoken language as well as the reader's understanding of the narrator's words. Ideally, this interview would be heard as well as read. A copy of this transcript has been donated to the UNLV Lied Library, Special Collections. The following transcript was produced from a series of interviews conducted between August 27,2006 and August 21,2015. These interviews are part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Las Vegas Women Oral History Project, Series II: Community Builders. Additional transcripts may be found under that series title. Joanne L. Goodwin, Project Director Professor, Department of History University of Nevada, Las Vegas LIST OF PHOTOGRAPHS Frontispiece: Renee Marchant (undated) The following photographs may be found in the center of the book listed in the order below: 1. Renee Marchant playing piano at South High School (1953) 2. The Stephen and Beatrice Marchant Family (undated) 3. The Rampton Family (2013) 4. The Roger and Renee Rampton Family (2013) 5. Senator Harry Reid and Renee Marchant Rampton All photographs are courtesy of Renee Marchant Rampton Preface Renee Marchant Rampton has often referred to herself as "One of Fifteen." Indeed, growing up in a family of fifteen children, Renee experienced the care of loving parents, the excitement of a bustling household, and the engagement of an active Church; all amidst the strains of a depression era economy. Renee's mother, Beatrice Marchant, provided Renee with a strong role model with which to emulate; a disciplined woman, who rose to the task without hesitation. Beatrice became the family's provider after her husband's debilitating stroke and later served in the Utah Legislature during the 1970s. Renee loved music from an early age. As a young child she found an early job as a piano accompanist for a dance studio. In 1956 she married musician, Roger Rampton, a successful percussionist. They soon settled in Las Vegas, where Roger performed on the Strip and they began raising their four children. It was an exciting period in Las Vegas history as the Strip attracted musicians and performers of wide acclaim. Renee learned to juggle her husband's performance schedule with the demands of her growing children. During this time she remained very active in her Mormon faith and the Church's music ministry. When the Clark County School District contemplated cuts in their music programs in the early 1970s, Renee also became a vocal community opponent. During the 1970s, Las Vegas experienced many social changes. The NAACP had become increasingly vocal in demands for racial equity. Welfare recipients protested cuts in their monthly stipends by marching down the Las Vegas Strip. Women also began organizing. Women's groups such as the National Organization for Women, the League of Women Voters, and the Women's Political Caucus weighed in on current social ills. It was during this era that the U.S. Congress finally passed the Equal Rights Amendment and sent it out to the states for ratification. As a member of the Mormon Church, Renee witnessed firsthand the Church's opposition to this proposed amendment. Increasingly uncomfortable with the Church's involvement in this political issue, Renee voiced her concerns to Church leaders. Not satisfied with their dismissive responses, Renee soon joined forces with those working to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment. During the course of her involvement, Renee met many women with whom she has remained steadfast friends. In the midst of this activism, Renee and Roger's marriage ended. Renee returned to college, completing her Education Degree and began a career as an Elementary School teacher. She found this work very fulfilling and continued teaching until she turned seventy. Renee's life story provides an example of a determined and principled individual who stood her ground despite facing many obstacles along the way. Taking a vocal stance in support of the Equal Rights Amendment often left her at odds with other members of the Mormon Church. Her willingness to attest to the Church's political activities has provided historians with a better understanding of the Mormon Church's involvement during this campaign. I am particularly grateful to Renee for her painstaking record-keeping: saving the Anti-ERA leaflets distributed by the Church, the notes left on her windshield, literature distributed by the priesthood youths; all are invaluable in retelling the history of the ERA ratification campaign in Nevada. Renee's story adds an important thread to the fabric of our Las Vegas history. Her personal experiences reveal the oftentimes contradictory nature of the public narrative. I am grateful for her willingness to share her story with all of us. Dr. Caryll Batt Dziedziak September 2015 1 RENEE MARCHANT .4 Renee Marchant Rampton An oral history Interviews conducted by Caryll Batt Dziedziak Thisi s Caryll Batt Dziedziak interviewing Rampton. This interview is taking Ren place at Renee's home on Mallard Street in Las Vegas, Nevada. Good morning, Renee. Good morning. We're going to start with a little of your family history. Let's go back to your great-grandparents who emigrated to the United States. My paternal great grandparents came from Bath, England. They were converts to the Mormon Church. They came across the ocean. They came here in the 1850s as converts and went directly to Salt Lake City. My great grandfather was Albert George Henry Marchant, who married Harriet Matilda Casper. My maternal great grandparents were also converts. Frands Peter Peterson and Inger Kjarstena Christensen. They came from Denmark. They came across the ocean. In fact, as I have been told, my maternal great grandfather, Frands Peter Peterson, was the first Mormon buried at sea. He died on June 15,1863. Did you ever find out what he died from? He had dysentery. They got that on the ship a lot. Tough voyage! And his wife had someone with her who helped her and she hired a wagon train that came across the plains. They arrived in Salt Lake City. So it was an actual wagon train, not the Mormon handcart that you hear so much about? Well, they came across different ways, but they had a wagon train. In fact, there was a history — Sheldon did it. He researched that. It was stampeded by Indians. It was quite a story. 1 I'm sure! And this is your maternal great grandmother? Yes. Your great grandfather died coming across the ocean. So they already had children? She had the one son. And she went directly to Salt Lake, also. Yes, to Salt Lake. There were two ways that Brigham Young organized the people that came. He put them by ethnic groups and put them in different parts of the state, and then he also put them alphabetically. So you'll find all of the M's — Marchant was my maiden name. And they're in Peoa, Utah. It's near Park City. How interesting! Now in your family memories did anyone talk about what motivated your great grandparents to join the Mormon Church? Mormon missionaries went to Denmark and my great grandparents converted to Mormonism. You know, there was a lot going on in terms of religion at that time. And did your maternal great grandmother remarry after she arrived? No. And she had the one son. Yes. He later married a Mormon convert from Denmark. Let's talk about their involvement in the Church once they relocated to Utah. They were very active leaders in the Church. Well, my mother was born in Koosharem, Utah. It's north of St. George. Her mother died in childbirth when my mother was only seven. They lived on an Indian reservation down there. And the reason she died was that there was no medical care on that reservation. By the time a doctor arrived, both she and the baby, who had arrived early, died. I think Grandpa became pretty bitter. 2 1 Well, understandably so. Anyway, I remember him telling this story. He said when he was young, his dad must have been like a stake president because they'd go visit the other bishops. The heads of the Church would come down and see how things were going and his father used to take him. He said they went to this one bishop and they asked him, "Well, do you have good priesthood members?" The bishop said, "Yes." And my great grandfather said, "Do they live the word of wisdom, which means do they smoke it or do they drink?" And the bishop replied, "Some do and some don't." Then my great grandfather asked, "Well, do the ones who live the word of wisdom take care of the sacrament?" And the bishop said, "No." Great grandfather asked, "Why not?" To which the bishop retorted, "Sons of bitches steal the sacrament dishes!" So he had a good sense of humor! Yes. Tell me about your mother, Beatrice Marchant What was her maiden name? Peterson. And when I asked her why she had 15 children she said, "Well, I figured if a man could run a company with hundreds of employees, I could certainly take care of a dozen children." And she did! She was a busy woman. What our mother had she gave us. She was encouraging. Oh, yes. Always! Fifteen kids and I never heard her yell! She called us to dinner, but that was the extent of her yelling. Was she a disciplinarian, so you knew not to cross her? 3 1 Yes, absolutely. Absolutely! I told her once, I said, "I thought raising kids would be so easy because, we just did what you told us to do." Little did you know! Absolutely! I'm sure she got a laugh out of that one. She did! I remember you talking about your father's health issues. Your mother really had to be a strong person. Yes. Well, first she stayed home and raised the kids, then my father had a stroke. So, she had to make a living. And then my mother went to work. And your father was fairly young when he had his stroke, was he not? He had the stroke when he was in his late fifties. My dad was thirteen years older than my mother. He died when he was seventy and he had been bedridden for about eleven years. Your mother did not work outside the home in your younger childhood years? Right. Well, when my dad had the stroke, she went to work and she taught. She was a librarian at one of the elementary schools. And after that she worked in the recorder's office for Salt Lake County. So, your mother went back to work and was caring for a husband who wasn able to really do much of anything? Oh yes, she had to hire someone to come and be with him. And then she ran for the state legislature. It was in the seventies during the ERA ratification campaign. She was a pro-ERA legislator. It sounds like your mother was a very independent, self-sufficient woman. 4 Yes. You've made a specific reference that she became a feminist Well, I asked her once. I said, "When did you become a feminist?" And she said that when she was a teenager that there was a road company that came to their town and performed Henrik Ibsen's "A Doll's House." And she said, "After I saw that I knew that women needed equal rights." Talk about the influence that your mother had on you. With her being a feminist, how did that affect your views growing up seeing the stereotypical roles for men and women? Well, the one thing that she saw that each of her children did was get a good education and that each of us was able to make our own living at some kind of a skill. We all were encouraged for education and all of us have professions. Some of the girls didn't go to college, but I think all the boys went to college. We paid for our own education, but I always thought I would go to college. My mother went to college and then did her thing I'm curious ifyou had the attitude as a girl and young woman that school was just something to get through...the real importance in life being married and having a family. Well, I had that too. I mean, I had to get my education and once I was married, then I dropped out of school. My mother kept involved in the community throughout her life and I followed that example. You stayed involved in music? I taught piano lessons and I worked in the Church a lot. I was the Church organist. And what type ofjob did your father have? 5 He was a salesman. And this was Depression times. Well, and while we were living in Midvale, my father met Herbert B. Maw, who was a young law student at the University of Utah and would later became Governor. Well, my father became acquainted with him and there were rumors or information that the power company was going to throw people out of their homes because they couldn't pay their power bills. By this time, Herbert B. Maw, was a young attorney. My father talked to him and had him come and talk to the people at the Rotary Club or Lion's Club and tell them they would not be thrown out of their homes. But, my dad received threats on his life for bringing him there to speak. Really? When we moved into Salt Lake City there was, in my mind, a racial line. We lived south of 9t h South.. .one block south. North of 9th South were a number of black families. There was only one black family that lived not far from our home on the South side. And, one of the Stake leaders, Sheldon Brewster, came to my father and asked him to sign a petition saying that the black family would have to move. And my father said, "No, I don't want to feel like somebody might want to stab me in the back." My father refused to sign the petition, but remained friends with Sheldon Brewster, who years later spoke at my father's funeral. And this is back in the days when blacks were not allowed to be a part of the LDS Church. And this particular black family was a very well-educated, very nice family. The mother was a nurse. My oldest brother was best friends with one of the boys, so he'd oftentimes sleep over. So, we were pretty progressive, I guess, for those times. In fact, I was eight months pregnant living in Long Beach when my dad died, so I didn't go to his funeral. But 6 they said that there were people who spoke at his funeral whom my father had given jobs to. He was, I guess, a good salesman. Later, after Governor Maw was elected, my father as a political appointee ran the liquor warehouse for the state of Utah. All liquor sales in Utah are under the Utah Liquor Control Commission. He did that and then when Governor Maw lost his election, my dad had various political jobs. The last one was a garbage man. And I was embarrassed that he had that kind of work. But you know, he did the best he could until his health broke down. You were born on July 25,1935 in Midvale, Utah. Yes. Is that in the Salt Lake City area? Yes, it's a suburb. And you attended South High School Was that also in Salt Lake City? Salt Lake City. The family lived in Midvale for five years. We lost our home when I was one. It was the depression and my father and mother had bought a home. It was in a cul-de-sac and each home had a chicken coop behind them and they were supposed to have a business with eggs and it was supposed to help. They lived there for five years. But we lost the house. They came one day and told everybody on the street that they had to be out of there in one day. And my sister Elva's earliest recollection was going next door and seeing the young mother pulling all of her things out of her cupboards and crying. My mother did something that gave them a little more time. But they lost the home and what happened was, the man who sold everybody the house there had taken the down payment that all those people had paid him. Then, instead of applying those down payments, he reinvested it for himself. And then he represented them in court. My mother always 7 believed that he didn't do that, but Elva researched it and she actually went to the man who sold the homes. He lived only a couple blocks from her as an adult. Elva asked him about it and he affirmed that is what happened. But, since then, President Roosevelt changed some of those laws so that people were protected and that wouldn't happen again. My family then moved to Salt Lake City. They bought a home and lived in the same home until my mother died. All of this happened when there were already fourteen children in the family? No, my twin brother Richard and I were the babies. Short notice! Pack up your children and move! Yes. Just incredible! And how many brothers and sisters did you have? Seven sisters and seven brothers. Everything even. All things equal What were the expectations in your household growing up as far as the gender divide between the boys and the girls? Were there different expectations? I didn't think about it then, but there were different things. For instance, the girls ironed their own clothes. And my mother ironed the boys' clothing. All of us had to do dishes. We had our turns to do dishes. My siblings felt that I was given favored treatment because I played the piano and I started playing for dancing schools when I was nine years old. And because I was working on Saturdays, I didn't have to do a lot of the Saturday cleaning work. I bet you loved Saturdays! You can't wipe the smile off your face! [Laughter] I didn't rub their noses in it, but I was happy about it. I loved not having to do that work! Let's go back to fill in about your early years because you're from such a large family. 8 Oh, yes. Tell me about your siblings and what life was like growing up. We lived in a small — it was really a two bedroom house and it had a sleeping porch. With fifteen children? Well, we didn't all live there at the same time because World War II came. And so the three oldest brothers were gone. And my sister went to Ogden to work. So that kind of broke it up a little bit. But we had just the two bedrooms and sleeping porch, and the garage was built into a bedroom. The boys slept in the garage and the girls slept in the house, except for the little ones. We all had our chores. We took turns doing dishes. But we didn't do enough. We really should have done more. But I had a great childhood. I don't know if I told you this story. When I was living here [Las Vegas], one of our childhood friends came to visit me. Jimmy had been from a broken home. His mother had been married two or three times. I remember seeing him at midnight riding his bike around. So, years later he came to see me. By this time, he was in the Elder's Quorum Presidency and active in the Church and happily married. And I said, "Jimmy, I didn't think you'd turn out so well." He said, "Well, it was your family. On Sundays your family made candy. I just wanted to be like your family." Well, how nice that even though he wasn't from a family like yours, he could at least see that possibility for his own life. Yes. And on Sundays we'd make candy. We lived near Liberty Park, a block away from this big park. There were lots of activities there for us. We'd go in the summer. And they'd have classes and they had tennis lessons. The Desert News paid for free tennis lessons. So we went over there and I won a tennis racket. So we were able to do good things. And then 9 my cousin came to stay with us and she was a piano player. So they bought a piano. And my mother taught me the beginning lessons on how to play the piano, and I got through the first book. And then I was able to take piano lessons, but I had to pay for them. When I was eight I started babysitting. So I had enough money to pay for my piano lessons. And from there I got a phone call from my piano teacher. There was a lady named Nell Taylor, who taught dancing at our Church. She wasn't a very good dancer or teacher, but she was an old maid. She made herself a respectable living and taught dancing. And so when I was nine I started playing the piano for her dancing classes. Then later on my Grace Evans was my piano teacher. My father had met her in Peoa. She had two sisters. And the three Evans sisters used to play for dances in Peoa. One played the violin and one played the cello and the other played the piano. So they'd play for dances in Peoa. One day she called me and said that this student of hers needed a piano player, because she was going to start teaching dancing. Now, the student was Jo Peacock. When she was little she had taken dancing lessons in Salt Lake City from Pete Christensen. Pete Christensen was the uncle of Bill Christensen, the founder of University of Utah Ballet. Bill had two brothers: Harold and Lew. He and his brothers were the major developers of the San Francisco Ballet. It was the tail end of Burlesque. And the three Christensen brothers had partners. They toured in a dancing troupe and ended up in New York and were in the first School of American Ballet with George Balanchine. And Jo and the two other female dancers were partners with the Christensen brothers. So they danced in the School of American Ballet. And then she got colitis. So she came back to Salt Lake and she nearly died. When Bill came to Salt Lake to found the University of Utah Ballet School, he needed some good teachers. So he called Jo 10 and asked her if she would be able to do some teaching to bring up the ballet students in the area. So she started teaching and I began playing the piano for her. By then I'm in junior high or high school. And when I auditioned for her, I just couldn't believe what I was seeing! It was like she didn't touch the ground! So I played for her until I went to college. Then I had to quit. Years later, when I was going to UNLV, I needed extra money and I played for Vassili, for his professional class. Vassili Sulich? Yes. So music really opened up a lot of doors for you! Absolutely! You 're quite musical, as are your children. Were any of your siblings musical? Yes. Karen sang the lead in her high school opera. My father had a nice voice and loved to sing. He also played the violin. You were married in 1956 up in Utah and you moved to Long Beach, California right away? Yes, we left for Long Beach on our honeymoon and stayed there for three years. And then Roger got a job with the Stardust... Yes. At the Stardust for the Lido de Paris. When we moved to Las Vegas my husband looked for a house and found it and it was the house Dorothy Thuet was renting. When she started talking, he said, "Are you from Salt Lake City? And she said, "Yes." Where did you live? Williams Avenue, which is where I grew up. She had been my neighbor and my brother's girlfriend. Her mother was a beautician and my sister Lucy apprenticed under her and became a beautician. Anyway, then I stayed friends with Dorothy and her family. So 11 she moved from there and we rented her house where she was living for about six months and then moved up here. And she lived real close to here. I taught her daughter and sons piano lessons. And I taught piano lessons to their kids. In fact, many years later, I was at a PTA state convention and one of the boys that I'd taught piano was there. And I came over and talked to him and he said, "I still remember that Boogie Woogie." That's cute. But Dorothy is still an active Mormon and always been a good friend. She called me when I was on the air stating that the Church had tried to get me involved in the Equal Rights Amendment. She telephoned me and said, "Renee, what are you doing?" So, she was loyal in the Mormon Church and not an advocate for the ERA ? Oh, no. No, no, no. So despite that, you could still maintain your friendship even though you were on opposing political sides of this issue. Yes. Well, she's an adult. You had four children: Sheldon, Debra, Dale, and Kenneth - all over a span of ten years. Lots of A ugust babies! Everyone's a Leo but Dale. He's a lonely Capricorn! Yes, you had a... Den of lions! [Laughter] You moved to Las Vegas in 1959. And what type of musician was Roger? He was a percussionist. And all musicians got paid Union Scale. But for every separate instrument that Roger played, he got a little bit more. They called that "doubles." Because he was a percussionist, he had a lot of doubles. We had a fortune tied up in musical 12 instruments. And we had a little side business, too. Roger was a musical genius and he was really excellent at building accessories for percussion instruments. He had an invention that we patented and we opened a little office. In fact, we had metal lathes and all kinds of tools out on the patio for a while and then found a location and worked there. Roger played for the Kim sisters when they traveled. And he played for Elvis Presley and traveled with him, because he could get off his regular job and do that. He was the highest paid side man on the Strip. So you were busy in other ways. Oh, yes. I've always been busy. But it was fun being married to a musician. Did you go to a lot of the shows on the Strip? Yes. And at that time we were able to go sit with the band or sit in the light booth and do things like that. They always had big Christmas parties. At the first Christmas party, Roger said, "Stay real close to me," because the gay guys in the show were after him. He needed protection. He wanted them to see that he had a wife! That's funny. But, yes, we got to see lots and lots of stuff. If Roger was working in a show at the Stardust, I'm assuming he was gone afternoons and late nights? Well, not afternoons so much. They usually played two shows, at seven o'clock and then the late show. So, they played two shows at night and he'd have rehearsals in the afternoon sometimes. And he usually wasn't up in the morning. Well, that had to be an extra challenge with young children. 13 It was very difficult to keep up with all of it once the children came. And it was more difficult once they were in school, because I then had to be up in the morning. So obviously that would impact your schedule. Yes. I had a breakdown right after Kenny was bom. Explain what you mean by that Let me see where to start. I think it was a hormonal imbalance. Physically things weren't right. A lot of it is blurry. Well, what happened was I thought it was the end of the world. I was not rational. It sounds like a classic postpartum depression. Did anyone ever officially diagnosis that as postpartum depression after Kenny was born ? Yes. I wasn't rational and I thought it was the end of the world. Roger wasn't good about paying bills on time, even though he made good money. He gambled a lot. He went fishing and I was here. And I think the power was shut off, and I just translated that into being the end of the world. And I called everybody and told them to turn their hoses on to stop the fire and went to bed. Then I told everybody I was dying and the world was ending. Anyway, they took me to the hospital and they put me out for two days. I remember waking up. There was a black woman, who was one of the medical assistants, and I said something to her about being alright even if she was black. And she was insulted. But, you know, the doctor kept me medicated. I didn't smile for a year. And I'd go see the psychiatrist. Roger spent several thousand dollars on medical care for me that year. And he loved me being helpless. It was interesting, because once I came back to being myself; then he didn't love me that much anymore. How interesting. 14 Yes, it really was. And you said he was offfishing - is that when this first occurred? Yes. Did someone get a hold of him ? No. Well, I was in bed "dying!" I ended up having a living room full of people. There were women from the ward and there were the missionaries and friends. So people came out of concern. Out of concern they were all there. I remember the next-door neighbor who was a lovely woman. I don't even know what was said because I don't think I heard a lot of it because my head was not on right. She said there was a lot of stuff said that should never have been said. And I can imagine. One woman who was very smart thought that she needed to lecture me. Kenny is your youngest child, so this was probably when you were around 30? No. Kenny was a baby, so I was closer to 40,1 think. You had young children and a newborn. Oh, yes. Well, they were in Elementary School probably. Having four children, how did you manage? We hired somebody. I had somebody coming in all day to do the work. I just sat in the La-Z-Boy rocker and rocked the baby. And I'm assuming you had women from Church stopping in. Oh, yes. They would stop in. And I remember Roger had dropped me off one day at the doctor's because I wasn't driving. I was medicated. While I was in the waiting room, I sat down on the floor and thought, "I'm trying to please everybody. That doesn't work for me. 15 1 I need to be myself." And I made that decision. My eyesight was blurred and I had been on these meds for nearly a year. I went over and talked to my neighbor across the street and explained how 1 was feeling. She said she thought that I should quit taking the meds. Also, my dog had gotten out and was in heat. So, I took her to the doctor and told him I didn't want her to have puppies. He said, "What's going on?" And I said, "I just can't handle her having puppies." I told him I was taking these meds and he said that the meds can become toxic after a while. So then, because of what he said and because of what my neighbor said, I gave all the meds to my neighbor to keep in case I needed them and just went off of them cold turkey. That's when I went up to Salt Lake. My sister and her husband came down and they took me to Salt Lake and I saw the chief psychiatrist for the Mormon Church. And the psychiatrist said I seemed to be doing fine, but it can be dangerous to go cold turkey off of the meds. But the day after I quit taking the meds, I woke up in the morning and heard the birds sing and saw the sunshine and felt like I was okay. I want to just spend a few minutes on your early years acclimating to Las Vegas as a young mother and wife in the early 1960s. There was a lot going on in Las Vegas over the next ten years, a lot of social issues happening. Las Vegas had been referred to as the "Mississippi of the West" Were you aware of this type of racial divide? I was part of the racism! I was right in a lockstep with the Church. I went to the county courthouse and picketed with the Mormons against the school desegregation plan. That was the late 60s early 70s. Yes. The school bussing for the 6th Grade Center Plan. And I remember I was with the Mormon women or Mormons, there probably were men there, I don't recall, but I just 16 9 remember Lloyd George, who then became a Federal Judge. But anyway, he came up to us and said, "You keep up the good work." And waasn offihceia l in the Mormon Church at that time? He was an official in the Mormon Church but he certainly would not be happy if he saw that I said that, because that was not something he s