Transcript of interview with Sharon Maurer-Schwartz and Edna Rice by Barbara Tabach, February 1, 2016

An Interview with Sharon Maurer-Schwartz An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ©Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers and Editors: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White 11 The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first- person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas m Preface Bom in 1939, Sharon Maurer-Schwartz’s life experiences have traversed a groundbreaking era: she’s a female, Jewish and a married to a Protestant lesbian. This oral history reveals what it has been like for her as she explored her Judaism and recognized her personal identity. Her Judaic foundation began in the Reconstructionist movement in Indianapolis, Indiana. She has never wavered from her religious identity, though she has belonged to various types of synagogues. She and Ande (Edna) Rice, who also participates in this interview, were legally married in California in 2008, but have been together since the 1980s. They raised Sharon’s daughter Julie, pursued careers and moved to Las Vegas in 1999. Ande is a Protestant and the topic of blended religious couples is discussed. Sharon is devoted to her life coaching business - Growth Unlimited - and to helping others. IV Table of Contents Interview with Sharon Maurer-Schwartz including Ande Rice February 1, 2016 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Barbara Tabach Preface...................................................................................iv Sharon Maurer-Schwartz talks about her Jewish Russian ancestry; surname has been Maurer and Marcus; raised in Indianapolis, where her father was in used car parts sales. Mentions her father, Jack Maurer, and his six siblings. Raised in a Reconstructionist synagogue; attended Central Institute for the Deaf at Washington University in St. Louis, taught hearing impaired; married Alan Schwartz; attended Gestalt Institute. Discusses her Jewish practices; her bat mitzvah, probably one of the earliest girls in the country to have one........................................1-11 Both talk about meeting at the Gay Academic Conference in Chicago; Ande background as a dean of students; marrying in 1986; celebrating Christmas and Hanukkah; how family handled their being gay and an interfaith marriage....................................................12-25 Discuss religious backgrounds further: Ande’s Presbyterian background, Sharon’s Reconstructionist Judaism; blending that takes place in relationship. Story of how and when they moved to Las Vegas in 1998 after several trips to visit; what city was like at the time.26-33 Talk about the Oasis Counseling Center, keeping it open; gay community; mention Laura Sussman and Wendy Kraft; Midbar Kodesh Temple; living in Israel, learning Hebrew. Recall getting married by a rabbi and then a gay Unitarian minister; their wedding ceremony in Chicago area; legal marriage in California in 2008...................................................34 - 49 Sharon reflects on prejudices - female, gay, and Jewish - that she has experienced. Describes her Growth Unlimited life coaching business................................................50-53 Share their wedding album and ketubah; friends they have made in Las Vegas.............54-64 v Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project UNLV University Libraries Use Agreement Name of Narrator: Name of Interviewer: We, the above named, give to the Oral History Research Center of UNLV, the recorded interview(s) initiated on (PZ-Qt-XLe/U along with typed transcripts as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to the University of Nevada Las Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. I understand that my interview will be made available to researchers and may be quoted from, published, distributed, placed on the Internet or broadcast in any medium that the Oral History Research Center and UNLV Libraries deem appropriate including future forms of electronic and digital media. There will be no compensation for any interviews. Oral History Research Center at UNLV Libraries 4505 S. Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, NV 89154-7010 702.895.2222 VI I Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project UNLV University Libraries Use Agreement Name of Narrator: / d (3._f AnJnz ) Name of Interviewer: r/rs^hitf We, the above named, give to the Oral History Research Center of UNLV, the recorded to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to the University of Nevada Las Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials fqr scholarly pursuits. 1 understand that my interview will be made available to researchers and may be quoted from, published, distributed, placed on the Internet or broadcast in any medium that the Oral History Research Center and UNLV Libraries deem appropriate including future forms of electronic and digital media. There will be no compensation for any interviews. interview(s) initiated on ~ along with typed transcripts as an unrestricted gift, Signature of Interviewer Date Oral History Research Center at UNLV Libraries 4505 S. Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, NV 89154-7010 702.895.2222 Vll This is Barbara Tabach. Today is February first, 2016. I'm sitting in the Henderson home of Sharon and Ande. I'm going to ask you both to say your names and spell it for us. Sharon, S-H-A-R-O-N. Maurer-Schwartz, M-A-U-R-E-R, hyphen, Schwartz, S-C-H-W-A-R-T-Z. Edna Rice or better known as Ande, which is Edna spelled backwards, A-N-D-E. Edna is spelled E-D-N-A. And the last name is Rice, R-I-C-E. Great. So for the Jewish project, as I mentioned, I liked to get some sort of genealogy story, where your family roots came from. So what can you tell me about your ancestry? It's sketchy because my family didn't talk a whole lot about the past. My understanding is that my grandmother and grandfather Maurer, on my dad's side of the family, met in the sweatshops in New York. They were from Russia, Latvia maybe.. .we're not sure where we're from except it's Russian. I've met other people from those same parts of Russia and we are very similar, just kind of the food we like, the things we do, what our parents did, so that's familiar. My grandfather came here and went through Ellis Island. As far as I can figure out, we have two names; one is Maurer and the other one is Marcus, M-A-R-C-U-S. One story is that there was another Maurer in town by the same name as my grandfather and he owed money and wasn't a very nice person.. .Don’t know whether it's true or not, but that's part of the history. I'm not certain why they moved to Indianapolis...I know that there were relatives who lived in Cincinnati and they were Marcuses and I don't know if it was changed at Ellis Island or not. My grandmother was a twin. I had a Tatalina who lived in Cincinnati and she was a very tiny, short, under five-foot woman. She was part of that other lineage. I don't know if that was 1 my grandma's sister or if it was just a whole bunch of the cousins. So I don't know. And my grandma [speaking with an accent] she talked with an accent like you've never heard before. [Laughing] I was away at camp one summer and called her and I had never heard her accent, but on the phone that far away I heard it for the first time, and I was twelve or thirteen at that point. That's cute. My dad is the oldest of seven. Let me talk a little bit more about my grandpa. I'm told that my grandfather was like the sage in Indianapolis. It was a small community then and people would come to him to settle arguments and to talk to him. I think he sang in the synagogue. Now, my dad and his brothers and at least one of his sisters also sang in the synagogue. The synagogue was Beth El, and it was a conservative synagogue and was very young when my dad was young. Let's see what else. My dad being the oldest sort of took charge of the family. My grandfather died in a fire. They were selling used car parts. My dad tells stories of working in the parts lot and using some kind of a branding iron to put the tread into the tires. Isn't that fascinating? Yes. So if I was bom in '39, this had to be at least twenty some odd years before that. So this is at the beginning of the automobile industry. Yes, yes. They owned a used parts place and they were doing very well. Then for some reason — my dad had to do everything different from anybody else — he started a used car lot because during the war they weren't making new cars... I think it was an indoor car lot where they would have the cars inside, the precursor to our dealerships. Do you want the names of each of my aunts and uncles? That might be interesting. If you'd like to give those, sure. My dad's name was Jack Isaac Maurer. Then I had an uncle, David Maurer, and I had an uncle 2 Julie Maurer for whom my daughter is named because, when Julie was bom in 72, he had just passed away and he was my favorite uncle. And that’s in the tradition of Judaism, right? Yes, yes, that we name our children after those who have gone before us. Aunt Libby, her last name was Fleischer. Sally Yosowitz was my other aunt and she and her family lived in Vincennes, Indiana. What did David do? Get into trouble. [Laughing] I mean was he in the business? My uncle David and my father looked very, very much alike. My uncle David—this is my viewpoint—was a rogue. If you could do it easy or hard, he'd choose the hard way. As a coach and a former therapist, I have lots of ideas about it. But he was the one that caused a lot of problems and a lot of trouble and it seemed to be his thing. Was he in the car business? He was part of the business with the boys. My dad was never a part of their business. My uncle Sydney ran and owned with his wife and his wife's family a grocery store in Indianapolis called Atlas Supermarket and it was one of those supermarkets that you could buy things there that you couldn't buy anyplace else in Indianapolis and in the environ. So he really was progressive about what he did. David Letterman used to be one of his grocery baggers. David Letterman, the entertainer, the comedian? Yes. He was actually even at my uncle's funeral. Oh, wow. That's pretty special. Yes. And every once in a while when he was doing the every-night thing, he would talk about 3 Indianapolis with Sydney Maurer, blah, blah, blah. So we have a couple of claims to fame. I loved to go to the grocery store, because there were all these goodies there. I'm a cook, one of my passions, so that was always fun. His wife was Eleanor. My aunt Libby was married to Bernie Fleischer and lived in New York. He sold insurance. My aunt Libby, for a few years in her young adulthood, was a singer and I think she sang in Miami in some of the clubs; I'm not sure. But she had a professional voice and a bit of a professional career. And Sally was married and lived in Vincennes. Mickey. Mickey; that's the baby of my dad's family. He was in the service and he was in the band and he was in Alaska. I think that sounds right, yes. So he married Eileen Komisero from Terre Haute, Indiana, and they had four or five children. All of my dad's siblings had two or three—I don't know that anybody had four—Betty and Julie had four, Uncle Julie and Aunt Betty. That makes for quite a large family. Yes, it does. On Yom Tov there's a lot of people that used to show up. Now each of us has our own constellations of family that we've become a part of. I got out of Indianapolis as soon as I could. They used to call it Nap Town because it was a pretty sleepy town. Did you grow up actively in the Jewish community in Indianapolis? Yes. We belonged to the Reconstructionist synagogue and I went to Sunday school there, but the Sunday school was like bedlam. So I told my parents, "I want to go to the Reform synagogue because their Sunday school was better." Where I got that from, I don't know. But anyway, I was part of youth group. I went to Conclaves at the Reform synagogue. It was the center of my social life. I wasn't a social butterfly. I pretty much kept to myself and my self-image wasn't too hot at 4 that point in my life. I went to Shortridge High School and then I transferred to Broad Ripple; it was better. I didn't like Shortridge. From looking at all these things, I had to change all the time. So I spent all my life there and then I went off to college at University of Cincinnati and decided that I wanted to teach the hearing impaired and transferred to Washington University, St. Louis, and went to Central Institute for the Deaf, which is part of Washington University, and got a degree in oral teaching of the deaf and taught. How did you get interested in that? Well, around the comer from me where we lived in Indianapolis there were two deaf children and they were about three or four years younger than I was and they had been going to Central Institute for the Deaf for training. They weren't taught sign language. They didn't really know that it needed to be done at that particular point in time. I just thought—and I still do today—that I could make a difference in the world; that's part of the theme of my life. So I went to Central Institute and graduated from there and then taught the hearing impaired in the Catholic school for a year. And then in the Chicago Public Schools, I taught hard of hearing children at the Bell School. Eventually—oh, I got to Northwestern University to get my master's in education of the hearing impaired. It was right after I got married to Alan. Yes. You got a scholarship, didn't you? I married Alan Schwartz, S-C-H-W-A-R-T-Z, who owned a camera store in downtown Chicago. He had already had four children and his wife had passed. We got married and I took care of his two youngest kids who were twelve and thirteen. They're still a part of my life. Alan was my best friend. He was a very special man. His kids and I got along pretty well. His oldest son was just a couple of years older than I was. Alan was twenty years older than I was. He had graduated from 5 the University of Chicago in 1939, which was the year I was bom, with a master's degree. This was wartime and he was Jewish and this is the University of Chicago. So this was a big deal to be on a scholarship. He was then married to someone who had his four children and then we had one child. Wow, you were really young to take on all that responsibility. I was thirty. I got married when I was thirty. Well, I couldn't...I mean I could do everything. [Laughing] And I believe you could. You still can. So could all of us then. This is really taking me back a long way. I moved out of his house because I really wasn't recognized as a whole person. There was a Jewish Community Center being built in our area in Skokie where we lived in the Chicago area. He and I were good friends. So we would go out even though I lived in another place. It wasn't until after I moved out that he started to call me, "Oh, this is my wife, Sharon." But he never acknowledged that before. We stayed good friends and I ended up pregnant. I was not living with him then. It was his baby. He helped me take care of it and took care of me. I got a miniscule amount because I was teaching, so I had to take off time. So we made arrangements that I got more money when I wasn't teaching and then when I went back to teaching, I'd get this amount; I think it was a whole two hundred fifty dollars a month to help raise her. I don't remember. It was miniscule. She was born in what year? She was bom in 72. That was substantial for 1972. Yes, it was. But it wasn't enough. 6 But it wasn’t enough. It never increased, either. We lived where there's lots of snow and I didn't have a garage by the apartment building and it was five blocks from his house. He always went late to his store because his older son used to open for him in downtown Chicago. So he would come by and clean the snow off my car and turn on the heater and come and pick up Julie, baby Julie, and take her with him to his house or to the store or to the babysitter. I would always get in to a warm car especially when I was pregnant. Well, that was nice. Yes, it was very nice. We were good friends. I miss him. Ande and I and he were good friends. He came to the house for Thanksgiving and for holidays. Julie's first words were mommy house, daddy house. We talked to her when she was an infant, newborn even; we put the phone to her ear and she'd recognize our voices on the phone. What was it like to be a single mom? It sounds like he helped you, but, at the same time, you're a single mom. He was there. It was just the way it was. I was pretty dense. I think a lot of that time in my life it was sort of you go, I go, and sort of like there was a screen there. I didn't have any options. You were going to Oasis and that kind of stuff during that time. Yes. I started to get involved—thank you—at the Oasis Center for Human Potential, which was then the encounter group movement was going on. I did training as a group leader there with probably one of the best group trainers I've ever worked with. Explain for those who would be listening to this or reading this what that whole era... Well, it was an era of us beginning to know that there was more than what you just saw. It was 7 getting into emotions and feelings. I went to the Gestalt Institute to train with Fritz Peris, P-E-R-L-S, I think. My trainers were trained by him, the first people that had been trained by him, so they were on an intimate basis with him and his livelihood and what he did and how he did it. I was very lucky. God put me in this place where I got some help. I mean I was willing and open to it. At that time, change...Sometimes it was believed that it had to hurt. So it was heart stuff. So that really started my beginning of self-growth and self-awareness. I wasn't out yet; I had no idea that I was gay or anything. There were some people in the group who were gay. At one point we had an exercise that said, "Go around the room and assume you're sexually attracted to everyone." It seemed much easier with women. It was my first inkling. I had no idea because I couldn't think that way. We lived in a time where there were the right way and the wrong way; there was no in-between. The encounter group movement was one of those things that sort of created that in-between place. And they—the proverbial they—said that it was not valid because they couldn't measure it; they couldn't measure the change; they couldn't measure the psychological attitudes, the pounding and the screaming to get rid of your rage in a controlled environment. What was it? About eight years, nine years ago I went to a conference here in Las Vegas. There was a woman—I cannot remember her name—who was doing research and getting valid results. You know, it does really happen; you can really change. You can make yourself sick when you're upset. It's very much accepted today in all the spiritual stuff. So I had a very good background and I had a lot of teachers. In my current language, the universe took very good care of me and I got the gifts that I needed. Did that work well with your Judaism? Were you a practicing Jew at that time? I never stopped practicing being Jewish for my whole life, even today. I have recently resigned from the synagogue. I've belonged to Midbar Kodesh since I moved here. I wasn't getting a sense 8 of spirituality and wasn't feeling really, really comfortable. Now that my daughter lives in Atlanta, I go there for the Jewish holidays, at least for Passover and for the High Holidays. I thought, I don't need to. And it's, what, six blocks, four blocks from here? It's changed and it wasn't the place I want to be. I'm not sure where I'll be or if I'll go back there. I told the rabbi right now it wasn't what I wanted to do and if I was ready, if I wanted to come back, I would let him know. And he says, "You come back any time you want and we'll welcome you." So that felt good. When I graduated from college and went to live in different places and work, the first thing I would do would be to find a religious school. I couldn't afford to belong to a synagogue at that point, but I would teach religious school. So I had my synagogue and I was a teacher. It got me up and out of bed on Sunday mornings. What did you like to teach? Then you taught fourth grade and you had a fourth grade curriculum. The kids still had a little bit of bedlam. It wasn't very well organized. So I tried to teach things that would hold the kids' attention, sort of follow the curriculum that I needed to follow. I kept in touch with the Jewish community that way. Then there were singles groups and things like that in Chicago for Jewish men and women. Now, did you have a bat mitzvah? Oh, yes. I had one of the first bat mitzvahs in the country... I was twelve or thirteen. There had been one other girl that had had a bat mitzvah in our synagogue. Being Reconstructionist, the Reconstructionist movement believed that women were equal. Their premise was—the way that I interpreted it—was you need to know about Orthodox Judaism and all of the options and educate yourself and then you make your choice as to how it fits for you and your family. 9 Reconstructionist, the reconstruction of the religion, the way I see it—now, I could be all wrong, but that's what it meant to me. I was very accepting of that. I was bat mitzvahed. Now, did I know much? No. I listened to the record and learned my Maftir and did my thing. But it was important. My parents didn't want to do it and I really, really, really had to fight with them. I don't think they could have afforded it very well, either. But my grandmother, after each bar or bat mitzvah, they would go down to the vestry room and have big long tables where there was a little challah and there was gefilte fish. They didn't do a whole lunch, but my grandma and her friend Mrs. Goldman, I think, made the gefilte fish every week. Homemade gefilte fish, wow. [Laughing] Honey, this is really bringing out a lot of stuff. So my grandma did that and she loved to do that. That was her thing. She raised all these kids, so she knew how to cook for a lot. But it was very special. They would roll out the paper on the tables and the cups and the grape juice or the wine and they'd say a blessing. At my bat mitzvah, we have some photographs from me. My mother used to wear this great big giant hat; I mean giant. Yes, my family was very much a part of Jewish life in Indianapolis. So then, as a young parent, what did you do or how did you bring your daughter into that culture? I'd go home to visit my mom and my dad. My parents were probably my least favorite people in the world. We didn't get along, which I'm learning was sort of the norm in my generation. We didn't understand each other. We spoke two different languages because I was growing and as a young adult had encountered encounter groups and lived very differently. My parents didn't know how to parent. They came from a generation whose parents were survivors. It's what I call 10 generational conditioning because they were conditioned by their generation. I look at the refugees today coming into Greece and trying to go someplace to find a better life. This was that same kind of thing that they came to New York and they were running from the pogroms. What is it, the musical with Tevye? Oh, Fiddler on the Roof. Yes. That is pretty typical. My ex-husband, Alan, his family came from Poland. Pre-World War II? Well, he was twenty years older than I am, so it was probably pre-World War I. Yes, it would have been T9 because '391 was born. So it would have been '29 and T9. So, yes. So they weren't caught in the Holocaust? I don't think so. My best friend at the time, her parents were German and they left to come to the States. I would help them set tables for Shabbats and pull out tablecloths with initials of families that were not her parents because they sent their linens and stuff with her parents so that when they got here they would already be here. Wow. So you spent most of your time in Indianapolis, then, and graduated from high school. I graduated from high school in Indianapolis and then I moved to St. Louis, where I went to school—no, actually, I went to school freshman year in Cincinnati. My best girlfriend and her husband were there and he was learning to become a rabbi, a Reform rabbi. I wanted to go to school there and maybe become a Jewish educator. So that was my excuse. I always had to have an excuse to get what I wanted or where I thought I should be. Then we saw film in the education department and I saw deaf kids and I thought, oh, wow, because of my neighbors. So I went and did training at Central Institute for the Deaf and started 11 in with that. Then I became a school psychologist and I taught as an adjunct faculty member at Oakton Community College in Skokie, which is part of the Chicago area. We moved out here in '98. My daughter had become a social worker; she graduated from the University of Chicago in social work. I had my knees done, both knees done a month apart in '02. Julie said, "Mom, you have to go do something." I said, "Okay." She said, "I just finished this coach training course at a place called Coaches Training Institute. At that point I think they were one of very few places where you could get certified and work as a coach. It was a field that was coming and blooming, but mostly people called themselves coaches because they were going to go give advice. This kind of life coaching was similar to therapy, but we weren't into fixing things. We were into helping people find out how they wanted to live their lives, which I still do, and helping them develop the tools to create the person they wanted to be. That is still what I do today. So tell me the story of how you came to Vegas. Let’s start with that story. Long story short. Well, can Ande talk and then we'll fill in? Absolutely, yes, yes. First of all, Ande and I had been married in 1986. Well, maybe we should go back. Okay, go hack. Why don't we talk about when we met? That's what I was just going to say. That's really good, Ande. Tell me that story. I was working in Freeport, Illinois, andfriends of mine wanted to go to the Gay Academic Conference in Chicago. 12 At the University of Illinois. At the University of Illinois campus in Chicago. We were so closeted in Freeport because of our lifestyle. We had to be very closeted in our work. So they knew that I was from Chicago and knew how to drive in Chicago, so they convinced me to drive them in. I wasn't real crazy about going to the conference because I was a dean and I was very prominent in the community and whatever have you and I just didn't want to be exposed. But I said, "Okay, I'll drive you." And why didn't you want to be exposed? Because I didn't want to lose my job. And your job was where? I was the dean of students at the middle school. I was president of the Drug Council for the City. I was president of the Youth Council. It was a matter of coming out. Coming out. And I was a very big fish in a very little pond because this is a small community, very Republican, by the way. So I drove them into Chicago and I said, "Well, maybe I’ll go to the first session." Well, the first thing they wanted to know was my name and that freaked me out. But I thought, okay, I'll go. It was Sharon's session and it was on women's assertiveness. The first thing she did is she convinced a man that this was for women only and she did it so tactfully and so assertively, I thought, oh, maybe there was something to learn. Well, afterwards we got together. She had lunch with us and my friends. She said, "Well, we should have a date. So when are you going to be back in Chicago? " Well, I had an appointment in Madison and I said, "Well, I'll be back for Thanksgiving and then on that Friday I have to go to Madison and then I'll go home to Freeport." Well, she thought Freeport was...I don't know where. 13 In Louisiana? Isn't that where Freeport is? [Laughing] Anyway, so on that Saturday was our first date; it was 1979, and we haven't been apart since then. I would commute from Freeport to Chicago. I would leave Freeport right after work about four o'clock and I'd get to Chicago by dinnertime for a late dinner with Julie and Sharon. Then I'd leave on Monday morning at four o'clock in the morning and get back to Freeport about seven. And you would...in the morning? And then I would call her and wake her up. So every weekend you were doing this? Just about doing this for a year. And to put it in context, this was the time when I was doing a lot of the work at Oasis Center for Human Potential, during the encounter movement kind of thing. And I was in the process of leaving Freeport and deciding how to do that. What I did is I took a leave of absence and then resigned because I was burnt out as dean. You had been doing that how long? For eleven years. When you handle discipline and all that you get to the point where you go to a movie theater and you watch the audience rather than the performance. She would walk into places where there was a crowd over there; I mean of adults. "Oh, don't worry about that." But watch the folks over there. It took her a long time. Yes, it took me a long time not to do that. You become very aware of your environment and not what you were there for, and with Sharon. But what was interesting was the first weekend that Julie was there—because the first weekend we were together Julie wasn't there; she was at her dad's. 14 She went to her dad's a lot and he lived about five blocks away. But anyway, I'm a person that I like to get up early in the morning and watch the Today Show or watch something on TV. So I was in the living room watching TV and Julie came out. She was seven years old at that time. And she puts her arm around me and she gives me a big hug and she said, "Will you still be my friend if you divorce my mother?" And I'm freaking out. I said, "Oh, I always will be your friend." I'm going, \\Qy...I didn’t want to tell her that there is no commitment or anything here. But she knew at that age that there was a budding relationship. Right, right. But this was the first time she had ever seen us together was the night before. It was the night before. But in growing up—I