Transcript of interview with Wilma and Burt Bass by Barbara Tabach, February 9 , 2015

An Interview with Wilma and Burt Bass An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach The Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries ©Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tab ach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes, Stefani Evans 11 The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first- person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas m Preface In 1939, Wilma (Frank) Bass was bom in New York City, where she began her involvement in theater at the age of ten. Almost twenty years later, she met Burt Bass (1932-) when both worked for a photography studio, one of Burt first post-high school jobs. Burt opened his first professional photography studio in 1962, shortly after he married Wilma in 1960. The couple soon had two daughters - Jill and Wendy - and moved to Las Vegas in 1974. Burt initially worked for his brother-in-law Ed Frank's check cashing businesses and later opened his own photography business, Burton Studio. He later added services such as fingerprinting, background checks, and photographs for identification cards. Wilma worked as a jewelry salesperson, first at the Gold Factory then at Nieman Marcus. Socially, she was very involved with Temple Beth Sholom’s Sisterhood, using her theater talents to write, direct and produce various shows for the Sisterhood, ORT as well as B’nai B’rith Youth Organization. In this interview, Burt discusses his photography business, the migration of its storefront around town, and his colorful landlords, including individuals like Moe Dalitz and Art Marshall. Wilma talks about her sales career in the local jewelry industry, and more extensively, she shares memories of her involvement in the Jewish community with theater productions. Much of the discussion revolved around related news articles and personal photos from their relationships and activities within the Jewish community. The couple also shares stories of friendships with local entertainers, including Jerry Lewis and Neil Sedaka. IV Table of Contents Interview with Wilma and Burt Bass on February 9, 2015 by Barbara Tabach in Las Vegas, Nevada Preface.....................................................................................iv Wilma talks about her family history; growing up in New York City; involvement with theater productions as a child actress. Burt talks about his family history; passion for photography at young age, and how became a professional photographer. Both describe how they met. Wilma recalls decision to move to Las Vegas; Burt working for brother in check cashing business...1-4 Burt describes his photography business in New York, which operated before moving. Wilma reflects on daughters’, Jill and Wendy’s, adjustment to moving West; quickly acclimating to community with help of sister-in-law; becoming involved with Jewish Federation’s Sisterhood; getting part-time position at jewelry store. Talks about writing, producing and directing shows for Temple Beth Sholom; names others involved, cast in productions...........................5-10 Burt discusses getting out of check cashing business and back into photography; partnering with Frank Mitrani, then splitting and opening another location downtown, as a tenant of Moe Dalitz. Remembers various subsequent locations, landlords, as lost leases, including spot near federal immigration building; getting into fingerprinting business in addition to ID photos; opens second location. Talks about convention photography business, including GES.....................11-17 Burt talks about human resources photography business. Remarks about Steve Wynn hiring Marc Schorr to run Golden Nugget, Bobby Baldwin as president of Mirage Hotel and Casino. Mentions Art Marshall was first landlord. Both discuss getting involved with local Jewish community; share personal photos and describe who and what pictured, including those of temple productions..............................................................................18-23 Both recall influential community members and their role within community, including Oscar Goodman, Jerry Countess, Mel Exber, Billy and Jean Weinberger, Frank and Geri Rosenthal, Jay Samo, Irwin Molasky, Merv Adelson, Steve Wynn, Moe Dalitz, Allard Roen, Parry Thomas, the Greenspuns. Describe people in photo taken at local hangout Bagelmania, including Shecky Greene; Eamie Shavers, and Burton and Sandy Brown........................................24-28 Reflect on daughter’s bar mitzvah; temple leaders at the time including Rabbi Schnairson, Oscar Goodman. Wilma shares a news article from 2002 Women’s Division event. Burt recalls taking photos for Neil Sedaka; working with Jerry Lewis. Both tell about Mordecai, the jeweler. Wilma talks about working at Neiman Marcus’ jewelry counter; then at Hilton Jewelry Store......29-35 Talk about peaceful interfaith relations within community, and in their family. List people they would want oral histories of for Jewish Heritage project. Mention daughter’s pervious casting agency, which cast scenes for movie Casino. Burt talks about doing photography for “The Mirror,” v a free publication. Wilma talks about writing show reviews for Las Vegas Sun. Recall the fallout of Engelstad’sNazi parties.......................................................36-42 Wilma shares a photo of Sisterhood members; talks about who pictured, including Evelyn Groot, Brenda Strimling, Etta Hormel; shares another photo of Glusman family. Mentions both her parents, Burt’s mother moving to Las Vegas in 1970s and 80s. More photos, which include Shelley Berkeley, Rhea Dantzig, Roberta Sabbath; photos of political event, which feature A1 Gore. Mentions Louie Gorbena who owned Bagel Boys, and family........................43-48 Index..........................................................................49-51 vi Today is February 9, 2015. This is Barbara Tabach, and I'm in Henderson, Nevada, at the home of Wilma and Burt Bass. I'm going to have you each individually tell me a little bit about your family ancestry before we get into the Las Vegas stories. Wilma, you want to start first and tell me what you know about your family ancestry? I didn't know my great-grandparents. I knew my grandparents, maternal and paternal. My maternal grandparents came from Austria-Hungary. My paternal grandparents came from Russia. I did know them. My parents were U.S.-born rather. So your grandparents immigrated here. Yes. Where did they go; where did they land? In New York. Everybody landed in New York. And that's where you were born and raised, in New York City? Yes, I was bom in the Bronx. Jill was bom in Brooklyn; Wendy was bom in the Bronx. Two different doctors; two different times, of course. Then Burt and I got married. You told me earlier, before we started recording, that you were an actress for a while? I was always in theater. From the time I was about ten—my mother always encouraged theater. And I loved it. I became a member of Children's Equity, which was the children's branch of Equity Library in New York. I did some TV. I danced, I sang, and was involved in theater productions. In 1953,1 auditioned for The High School for Performing Arts in Manhattan and I passed the audition. After junior high school, we moved up to Westchester County to Tuckahoe, New York, and that was the end of my career because my mother didn't want me to travel to Manhattan. I reluctantly agreed. I really wanted to continue so I joined theater groups in 1 Westchester. I worked for Walker Studio, baby photographers. That's when I met Burt. Through the photography, okay. Yes. Nineteen fifty-nine? Fifty-eight? Fifty-seven? That's when I graduated from high school, so I don't think I met you right away. Fifty-eight. So no career. That went down the drain, thanks to my mother who pushed me into it and then quickly got me out of it. That's about it. All right. That gets us landed in New York and then we’ll get you two together here in a minute. So Burt, what was your family ancestry? Same as hers. Austria-Hungary, both families. But they were three generations in the United States; the great-grandparents came over. So my father's father was born in the United States. I don't know much about my grandmother because after having nine children, she kind of wore herself out and died too young. I knew my grandfather. I knew my maternal grandmother, but never knew my grandfather. I think both grandparents were born here in the United States, so that makes them third generation. Grew up in Brooklyn. Basically didn't have as exciting a life as she did in the theater. It wasn't that exciting. I went to Erasmus Hall High School. Didn't go to college. Just pursued photography and we crossed paths somewhere along the way in my career in photography. So at what age did you start being a photographer? I was probably eight or nine, amateur. Very talented. 2 Professionally after high school. What kind of camera was your first camera? If I remember right, it was when I was eight or nine; there was a camera that was called a Falcon. It was a plastic little camera. It was one-twenty-seven size film. That was the first camera. I saved up for it. I don't know how I collected money, but I saved up for it and bought it. After that there were other cameras, of course. How did you become a professional photographer? Just to make a living, knowing other people that did this at the beginning when I was probably twenty. I knew people in a baby home photography business and that's what I started with. While I was there I met another photographer who said, “Let's go into business and open a studio. ” We opened a studio out in Long Island. That was our first real professional setup. That was after I was married. That was 1962. When Jill was born, 1962; that's when we opened that studio. So how did you meet, blind date...? In this home portrait photography for babies, she mentioned the name to you, Walker Studios. Oh, yes. So after high school she got a job at Walker Studios and that's the company I was working for. It was up in the Yonkers area. I was doing the pictures in Brooklyn, but had to go up to the location that was Walker Studios and she was there. And it was love at first sight, as they say. Isn't that sweet? Isn't that sweet? Yes. 3 Fifty-four years later... It’s still love at first sight, right? Not so good sighting at this point. It's more feel than sight. How old were you when you got married? There's seven years difference. He was twenty-seven and I was twenty when we got married. So you pursued the photography and you were raising a family. And somewhere along the line how did you both decide to relocate to Las Vegas? That's an interesting question. I'll let Wilma tell you. My brother, Ed Frank, who is deceased, moved here in '65 and took over check cashing businesses that his mother-in-law's husband had. My sister-in-law's stepfather had opened already. He took over that check cashing business where people who gamble had to cash a check. You couldn't do it anywhere else, I guess. The people who owned it passed away—I don't even remember exactly what happened. So Ed took over the business and then he opened up two more places. We came out here for Ed’s birthday party, a surprise party in 1968 or 1969. While we were here, just for a weekend—it was his fortieth birthday, I believe—he sat down with us and convinced us to get out of New York, close Burt’s business, get rid of the house we were in, and work for him. He worked for my brother for about, what, five years? Yes. Cashing checks. What was the name of the business? The first one was Ace Check Cashing. The second one was Nevada Check Cashing. And the third one was. ..what? I can't remember. There were three, right? 4 Yes. One was near Circus Circus; that was Nevada Check Cashing. Ace is where we stayed when we were here. Ace was located across from the Hacienda, which is now Mandalay Bay. But I don't remember the other name. One was between the Aladdin and Bally's and Iforgot what they call it. It'll come to us at some point. Okay. But that will be interesting with my photographs that have those businesses. I don't know that there are any that I took. Photographs of places? Yes. Sometimes when we look at old photographs in our collection at the library, we might find something. You might see a storefront maybe. It was a very lucrative business. It had to be a different customer than your baby portraits. It was just not his thing. The business we had was a studio. We had it for about twelve years and did mostly high school and yearbook photography; that was a major part of the business, all over the metropolitan area— in New York, Long Island, colleges, high schools. It was doing well, but '73-74, we went downhill. It was a failed partnership and that's when we made a decision to move out here. The business kind of fell apart. So that was the thing that pushed us out here. When we came out, Jill was thirteen; Wendy was nine. What was it like to move a thirteen-year-old at that time? She had a tough time. She was leaving her elementary school and going into junior high school. It was not a good time for her. That's a tough age, yes. 5 Very tough. I think the transition was much more difficult for her than Wendy. Wendy was nine. She was just a different kind of kid and not into any particular friendships. She had friends, but Jill was starting something that she looked forward to. Wendy was still going to elementary school. Jill was starting a whole new life and I think it really took its toll on her at some point. But Jill got right into temple. And this would have been Temple Beth Sholom. Beth Sholom. They both went to Temple school in Great Neck. They called it Sabbath school, Saturday school, Hebrew school. They both did. But Jill continued here. Wendy did, too. But Jill became a bat mitzvah at thirteen here. It was a wonderful thing because when I moved out here I knew only my brother, my sister-in-law and my three nieces and one nephew. But unlike most people who moved here, I was not miserable and crying and missing New York because my sister- in-law didn't let me stop to think of anything. She got me very much involved with everything, and with the temple right away. The kids were okay. I found it a very transient town, though, for my girls. They would make friends, go back to school and those kids were gone already, or they'd go visit someone's house and the next day that child had moved out. It was a very transient town with the type of lifestyle these kids had to be part of. Mothers were not around; they were working at night, as Burt was working at night, too. That was not good, either. So he quit after five years. Burt, you went right back into a studio, right? Yes. He opened up another place, photography all other again. Let me ask a little bit more about Temple Beth Sholom. So you were a stay-at-home mother? Yes, I was stay-at-home for a short time, not long. I met people at the temple. I met a lot of 6 lovely ladies at the Sisterhood. I was looking for something to do, and I met a friend of mine who had the Gold Factory jewelry store. It’s on Maryland Parkway and Karen Street. It's behind the Las Vegas Country Club, in that area. Right. I was hired as a part-time jewelry salesperson, three or four days a week. The kids were okay. Jill was doing a little better. She had become a bat mitzvah. It was a wonderful experience for her. Wendy never went further with any kind of Hebrew lessons or anything in temple. At her bat mitzvah, it was Rabbi Shnairson, and Oscar Goodman was temple president. Everything in here...the first rabbi, the first cantor...everything is in notes here from 1946, which is when the temple opened. Great. We'll come back to that then, to the history. Yes. Everything is right in here. But that social atmosphere of temple really got you connected with the community. That started me off. I wrote shows, directed, and produced some with other people and some on my own for three organizations—the temple, well, the Sisterhood; ORT; and B'nai B'rith. I think it was mostly temple. Just ORT and temple. I have the articles. So that was my calling, I guess. What could I offer them? That's what I said I could offer. It was wonderful. We had some fabulous shows. So what kind of shows did you have? Tell me more about those. Just spoofs, spoofs on temple life, spoofs on Sisterhood. Here's one of them. This is a program from one of those? Yes. One of them started out at the temple and one was in a hotel. I can't remember. In a hotel? The original one was in a hotel, wasn't it? 7 I don't remember that. In the Dunes, fashion show. Some of the names on here will be very familiar to you. Yes. Some of them are gone. And then there's me. And then there's you. I don't see your name on here. You don't see my name. Okay, let's see. So was this all original? All original. Oh, yes, I know a lot of these names. I know some of these people. And then this one, too. This was the original one. That was at temple, I'm sure. Sisterhood for Annual Fashion Show. No, this was— Where was the one where you were a football player? That was at temple. And this one here, the '76 one, oh, she's called the halfback. Right. I thought one of them was in a hotel. Here's the picture of that. Okay. So this photograph that I'm holding— In the front you'll see me as a— Is that you, number forty-two? Yes. Was there any significance to that number forty-two? 8 Maybe it was my age. Is that possible? It wasn’t like a favorite football player or anything. No. I don't know where I got that from. I think somebody got me a jersey that said forty-two. I wrote all the songs, in collaboration, but I did mostly all the songs. Oh, my. Now, why is this here and that's that? What's the difference? I think this was in a hotel, before the show. I wouldn't have two programs. Annual Fashion Show luncheon. So this was not in the temple. No, it was at Fashion Show. Not the Fashion Show Mall. That was a fashion show. That was a fashion show. But where in the heck was this? I'm telling her I don't remember. Are you sure it wasn't in the temple? We wouldn't have had a fashion show in the temple. So when it says “ladies in politics” that was just— LIP; that was the name of the show, “Ladies in Politics.” We cast the show. We wrote the music. It was the most fabulous show. The pianist was Frank Sinatra's former pianist. Vince. Vince Falcone. He's still around playing. And he still plays. There's an interesting name here that commentated, Jean Weinberger. 9 Yes. Her husband was the president of Caesars Palace for many years. She and I wrote most everything, and my sister-in-law did, too. I knew Jean very well. Betty Brandwynne, her husband was the conductor for the band, the orchestra— Frank Sinatra. Nat Brandwynne. —at Caesars Palace for many years. And she was in the show. We had so much fun. Flora Mason, well, their family, the Masons, built all the hotels in town. You knew that. Stuart Mason, right. Stuart Mason. Flora is the wife. She was a model. Marilyn Re snick. That's Ash Resnick. He was a big deal here. There's so much history in this little thing. Yes, the names are just coming. Go ahead and keep reading the names off that. Elaine Wynn. They got it wrong and put an “E” on the end of it. .. .1 think it went from fashion show to this. This was at the temple. I don't remember a fashion show at the temple. But you're welcome to have these. Mark Fine was in it. Y We cast Mark. Betty Lou Cohan, Joyce Strauss, and Neil Strauss, he was our children's first pediatrician. He died. She was an artist and created the most amazing paintings. Her home was like an art gallery. She passed away six months after her husband passed away. Just recently. That was recently, yes. Kathy Jacobi was in it. She was the original from Jubilee. She's pictured, too. I'll show you 10 everybody in the picture. Mark Fine was in it. He was crazy and adorable. Bemie Otis. What was Bemie Otis doing here? He had the stationery/cigar store in the MGM or something. Bally's, when it was Bally's. He's not here anymore. It was before the fire. When was that fire, '84? I have the newspaper of the fire here, too. So quite the cast of characters— It really was. —involved in getting this done. That's wonderful. It really was. That's very cool. I see there are special thanks to companies that we know of—Marshall Rousso, Carpet Barn, and Burton Photography. Amazing. That's a good segue. Tell me a little bit about how you got out of check cashing into your photography business here. Frank [Mitrani] had his business, his studio downtown on Las Vegas Boulevard. Of course, when we moved here, I was drawn to hook up with him, not being in photography anymore, I just became friendly. He happened to be Jewish with an Italian name, Mitrani. He was married to Ellie Mitrani. We became friends and socially we were in each other's homes and so on. As the years went by and I became disenchanted with the check cashing business, I went in with Frank, worked with him, become a partner, so on. This was after his wife had passed away. We tried it. It didn't work out too well so we split and I opened another location not too far from him downtown; [I] created a new business with my business name that I had Back East, 11 which was Burton Studio. That's where my business started. That was probably about a year after I left her brother's business, the check cashing business. So that would have been approximately when? Seventy-nine; that's when I opened up the studio downtown. Where did you open it up at? It was Fourth Street and Carson. It was behind the hotel that was created by Moe Dalitz and Herb Tobman. Moe was the man and they had many meetings. In fact, we came across [Herb and Moe] at one of their meetings at a restaurant. They opened up what was called the Sundance Hotel, which is now The D. It was the Fitzgerald in between. When he built that property, there was a building behind it, which didn't become part of the hotel yet, but there were several little shops. The Marriage Bureau for Clark County was in there. There was a little dress shop. I had been in there before they purchased that property. So I became a tenant of Moe Dalitz, which was okay. He was a nice guy. Except when I fell behind in the rent. [laughing] Actually, he was a good guy. He was a good guy. Yes, he looked at me like a nice little Jewish guy who was struggling to get a business going. He and Irwin Molasky, of course, were together and they had their office on Maryland Parkway right opposite Sunrise Hospital. Moe Dalitz and Irwin Molasky created Sunrise Hospital years ago. I don't know if you know that. Yes. They did the Boulevard Mall. They developed the Las Vegas Country Club and that area. They 12 were the first where we lived, what was that called? Paradise Palms was their first residential [project]. They developed that, which is at DI and Eastern, across from the Sahara. The golf course that was there—that's still there—it was called the National. It was called Sahara Nevada and now it's National Golf Course. That was the nice side of Desert Inn. We lived on the not nice side of Desert Inn. I opened that studio there and I was his tenant for a few years. Then they decided that I had to get out because they needed the building for something. I was fortunate enough to know the manager of a shop that was on the corner of Fremont and Fourth Street called the Cornet Shop. It was like a five and dime, a family-owned thing. They had a whole chain of stores in Southern California. How do you spell that? C-O-R-N-E-T. Or C-O-R-O-N-E-T. The fellow that was managing it offered me a space in his shop because I was forced out of the store that I was in. It was a little space in the back of the store, just a one-room little thing. I said, “Sure, I'll go in there. ” I paid some rent, not much, and I continued working there. How many years it was? It's like a blur to me. I don't remember. Just two or three years. I was developing the convention business. I got hooked up with GES. That was Greyhound Exposition. I was getting a lot of conventions and I was doing okay. Then I got hooked up with some young lady who was a friend of my daughter's who worked at the Golden Nugget with the Wynns. That was before he expanded. He had the Golden Nugget, and I did photography for the human resources [there]. He was building the Mirage at that point, maybe a 13 year later, and I was doing some of the work at the Mirage as it opened. And then somehow—did I go across to Mitrani's? Mitrani kind of semi-retired and some photographer went into his location. I don't know who it was, but he went to jail for doing or selling drugs, or something. So I went into Mitrani's old location, just by accident. I moved out of the store next door into Matroni's. Got it. So that space just happened to come open. Yes. I stayed there a couple of years until they decided to build the new federal building in that property. Mitrani's old location was just where the federal building is now. You know that big courthouse? Yes. So there I had to move out again, and there was an opening on Carson, which is now a bank, right on the corner of Carson between Las Vegas Boulevard and Fourth Street. So I moved in there for a while. While I was in there I was hooked up with the federal building before they built that big new courthouse. It was across the street. It was Valley Bank Building, which is now Bank of America Building. That was also built by Molasky and that group. From those offices I was doing a lot of work for Lionel Sawyer, the law firm. When I was hooked up with them, Governor Sawyer was still there and Lionel and a lot of people. I was doing a lot ofphotography for them, their golf tournaments and things like that. A lot of lawyers were coming into my little space in the back. Even Steve Wynn came in one time with his driver to get a passport picture just because I was there downtown and I took a picture for him. After I got bounced out of Matroni's old location and got this new one, my landlord turned out to be Jim Jimmerson, the big divorce attorney in town. I stayed there for a while and 14 developed a business with the immigration office, which was in the old courthouse, the oldfederal building. The post office was in there. I was starting to do fingerprints for the immigration people. The immigration portion was moving out because the federal building was being built in a new location and they needed their own. So Ifollowed them up to Pecos and Sunset, where my location was for twenty years. An Asian man was building all these buildings for immigration and the building that he rented to me. So that was Pecos and Sunset, and I was in there doing immigration work, a lot offingerprints, a lot of ID photos, immigration photos and passport photos, for nineteen years. The business was changing and I was getting out of it myself of doing it with the photography. I had a friend who came along when I was up there on Fremont Street and I became friendly with a guy who needed a job in photography, and his name was Larry Burton. Here I have a studio called Burton Studios. We're still together as friends and partial partners to this day. He runs the business now. Again, it's no longer really a portrait studio; it's fingerprints and background checks, still with some photography in it. That's an interesting transition in business. How did that work, getting into fingerprinting? When I started doing at the Cornet store, lawyers were sending people in for background fingerprints. So I developed a little business of fingerprints and stayed with it. The backgrounds check industry is huge now. It's enormous and every kind of profession requires background check—contractors, nursing, insurance people, finance people, gaming. So now the business is doing probably 98 percent fingerprints and 2 percent pictures. Larry learned, as I did, how to do this and he kept it going. We do fingerprints for Bally Gaming, IGT, Bally Technical, a lot of gaming. It's been quite a run and pretty good. Interesting industry. Yes. And all this because I was bounced around so much from place to place and here being in 15 this location for nineteen years... somebody bought the building and said after a year, “You've got to get out because I'm going to grow some marijuana plants in this building. ” So I had to move again. It just happened. Recently. It's a grow house. The new law. I had to be out by the end of December. So December and January we moved. But this guy also had some property right across the street from this and we rented a much larger space than I had. So we are now in a new location, a block away from the old location after nineteen years. You’ve had a history of a lot of different interesting landlords. Oh, yes, and there were a few in between that I didn't talk about. There was a woman who owned a building—well, the first guy was an Asian man. He built all these buildings; he was a developer. He took a liking to me and put me in some location before the building was finished and after that gave me the best spot in the building, which gave people from immigration a good shot at me, and there were lawyers in there and so on. So he started something little and it just grew and grew and grew, and he still has a place. He finally sold the building to some woman and her husband who lived in California. They owned it for a couple of years. Then they sold it to another woman who lived in California, but her friend lived in the country club and managed the building for years. Yes. Now, that I remember. Finally the new owner, who is there now, moved in, owned it for a year, and then kicked us out. So there were several owners, if you want to know all those details. Let's go back to when you were working for GES, doing photos for that. So what kind of conventions would you do? 16 Every convention that came through. GES was a setup company; they would set the floor. If you've ever been to a convention, booths are everywhere and they were a company that did the setup. Of course, they referred all these people to me as being the official photographer. They were computer conventions. Larry's at a sewing machine convention today. He's still doing it, but I'm not involved with that. So is that before the News Bureau? Because don't they do the photography somehow or other for the conv