Harold McKay interview, March 13, 1981: transcript

UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 1 An Interview with Harold McKay An Oral History Conducted by Dana Jamerson Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 2 © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2020 UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 3 The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 4 Abstract On March 13, 1981, Dana Jamerson interviewed Harold McKay (b. July 27th, 1903 in Dresden, Kansas) about his life as a teacher in Las Vegas, Nevada. McKay speaks about his education, his move from Chicago, Illinois to Las Vegas and how he began his career in education. McKay focuses on how and why he founded the Teacher’s Credit Union, his time working in administration and his business school, as well as the problems related to segregation and integration in the educational system. Lastly, he talks about the growth of the gaming and entertainment industry in Las Vegas, and his volunteer work with the Senior Citizen Center. UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 5 A Look at the History of Education in Nevada. The narrator is Harold McKay. Today is March 13th, 1981. The time is one fifteen. Place of interview is 3719 Colonial Drive, Las Vegas, Nevada. The interviewer is Dana Jamerson, 4454 Number B West Desert Inn Road Las Vegas, Nevada. Alright Mr. McKay, I’d like to begin by asking you to briefly describe coming—prior to coming to Nevada. Well, prior to coming to Nevada, I was—had an advertising business in Chicago and developed asthma and was having attacks two or three times a week, which is really very serious. So the doctor said if I wanted to live, I should come to Arizona or Southern Nevada. And for some reason I landed in Las Vegas. (Laughs) (Laughs) And at that time, I didn't want to get mixed up with gambling and having a degree, college degree, I decided to start teaching, which I did in 1948 at Fifth Street School. Now, where did you receive your formal training? Formal training in—I went to Washburn College at Topeka, Kansas where I got my AB and then when I went to Chicago I took graduate work in accounting at Northwestern University Business School. And that was the educational training that I had. What was your first impression of Las Vegas when you came? Well, I remember very vividly, very vividly coming over Mountain Pass over here, seeing this little town. I, I just don't know what impression I had. It was, it wasn't the entertainment center that it is now because there were only two main hotels here then. That was the El Rancho and the Last Frontier. And in fact I had an opportunity to buy the land where the hotel Sahara is. But I didn't do it (laughs). So my impression was neither negative or— What was the population back then? UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 6 I would say around thirty-five thousand. And the main occupation was casinos? Why most people came here? Well, I don't know. I think that was the beginning of the entertainment and casino. I was, I guess I was impressed because everybody was living off of one another (laughs). You had no manufacturing, you had no agriculture to amount to anything here, and what kind of amazed me, why, you had this many people here living off each other not making anything (laughs). I guess—that was my impression, I guess. And again, what was the first school that you taught in? Fifth Street Grammar School. Grammar school. How many schools were in the area at that time? There was one high school, Las Vegas High School. And let's see, there's John S. Park, Fifth Street School, Westside School, Helen Stewart School and then two schools in North Las Vegas, I guess about seven schools. But there was only one high school. And how’re you hired for your first teaching job here? I was hired for twenty-five hundred dollars the first year (laughs) imagine that. And I went—teaching at Fifth Street School and one of the things that impressed me was that the principal, I taught the eighth grade class and he said, “now pass all of these kids. We can't keep ‘em around here any longer.” And the kids ran from age fifteen to eighteen and I never worked so hard in my life (laughs) the first year. And I had a, I think, discipline problem because one, I remember one kid and in particularly only had a second grade reading ability, so trying to teach him with eighth grade books was just impossible. Most the time he sat there and threw pencils or paper wads or something and it was a discipline problem. I had a paddle up on my desk which I used kind of UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 7 freely (laughs). But it was such a problem that the next year I didn't teach because I thought this was a one awful way to make a living. So I went to keeping books for an automobile dealer here. This is 1948? This is 1949. Forty-nine. And then he accused me of stealing some money from him. So I told him what he could do with his job. And I went back to get a job at teaching again. And they sent me over on the Westside, again teaching the eighth grade. And that was a problem too. But fortunately, within about two months, they transferred me over to the Las Vegas High School to teach bookkeeping. And that was my field and training and I really loved it. And it was there at the time that I formed the Teacher’s Credit Union. Put the first five dollars and twenty-five cents and now it's worth about forty million. Okay. Could you tell me something about what you went through to begin your credit union? Yes, it is very interesting. I had a hard time getting it started because people would say, “what's in it for you?” And I worked for nothing for four years. But one year one of the teachers went back to Iowa and on the way back her father fell and broke his hip or leg, I don't remember which. But anyway, this was an Omaha, Nebraska. And when she was ready to take him out at the hospital, she didn't have money to pay the bill. So she called me about getting a loan with a credit union. So I knew the woman, she's very reliable and she said she would sign a note when she got back. So I—put him on the line I says, “honor her check, we’ll cover it.” The very same summer, one of the teachers went to Washington and had a car wreck and she didn't have money to fix her car so I told her the same thing. And when those two women came back they made UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 8 every school teacher (unintelligible) join the credit union (laughs). And from then on, I think, I doubt if there's any teacher that doesn't belong to it. Where was your first office? Las Vegas High School. Right there on campus? Yes, right there. Who were the directors? Mr. Brenly, Gordon Flack, Paul Richard, Kelly George. I don't know who (unintelligible) that’s about it. There’s someone there at the door. Now you were still teaching at the time you were doing the credit union, right? Oh yes. Yes, yes, I just doing this as extracurricular work for the teachers. Now, you stated that you worked for four years without salary. Yes. Where was the money going? Well, we just needed it to build up a little surplus. So it was for the credit? Yes, it was for the credit union. Yes. Yes, it was income for the credit union. Okay. Oh another interesting thing about this credit union. There was a wealthy teacher, little bitty, guess you’d almost called her a spinster. And I can't recall her name but she taught at the Fifth Street School and was well to do. She owned a big apartment house down in Long Beach. In fact, I saw her later in her home down there, in one of her apartments (unintelligible) great big hotel. But if I’d get an application for a loan and didn't have the money, I'd go ask her to give me UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 9 some money. So, so she’d just “how much you want?” and write out a check and deposit to her savings account. I can't recall how much she put in there, but I never, she never turned me down if I needed money for a loan. She’d give it to me so that helped the credit union build too. So she was kind of a, what would you call someone—? Benefactor? Benefactor. That’s right. Hm. Now, there was three women that really made this thing go. These two women that I made loans to and then this benefactor that kept financing the money to be able to have (unintelligible). Can you recall her name? I can’t recall her name. (Unintelligible) This is about 1952? Yes, 1950, nineteen fifty-one and two and three and four. She was a teacher at Las Vegas, at the Fifth Street School. I’m sorry, I can’t remember her name. Was there any other insurance programs or anything provided by the school district for teachers? I don’t recall. Or any kind of benefits (unintelligible)? This was really—a credit union is a financial organization for a special group of people. This for the teacher, they would put their money in a savings account, and then we'd load it up to teachers. So it was all involved with teachers and it was hard to get a loan then. Most of the loans that we’d make would be for two-hundred and fifty to three or four hundred dollars off the bat. I UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 10 don't think we started financing cars up until probably five or six years. Now we finance cars, boats and everything. And how many teachers do you think belong to this union? I think they all do, depends on how many employees there are, (laughs) three or four thousand. And this covers the school district, the Las Vegas area, Clark County? Clark County. We only covered Clark County originally. Now it covers Lincoln and Nye (unintelligible). And incidentally, I've organized about six or seven credit unions in Southern Nevada. The Clark County Teachers Federal Credit Union (unintelligible). Hm. And all of these deal with teachers? Yes, that’s right. Teachers and employees of the school. Okay. Getting back to schools, you had mentioned that you kept a paddle. Did you use a lot of physical discipline and did you get any static like from the parents or from anyone else? No, I used it. In fact, I remember one time that they were, one kid was going to hit me and I told “if you hit me, hit me hard enough so I won’t get up.” And then another time three boys were gonna tackle me and luckily, I made it to the door, I hit him and I took ‘em right on down to the principal's office. So the principal and I told ‘em who was runnin’ things (laughs). And I think this is one of the, I think lack of discipline now in the school district is too bad. They talk about they should have discipline in their home. Well, they should have discipline on school grounds, too. And I thoroughly agree with the new policy that if the student doesn't come to school, kick him out. I think he should be explained what's ahead of him if he doesn't get an education and if that’s his choice, that’s his choice. About how many students were in high school? That you taught at? UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 11 I would say the Las Vegas, probably five hundred, not over four or five hundred at the time I was teaching. Later on, I taught at Rancho and they had around two thousand. Las Vegas High School, I believe at the time I started teaching there couldn’t have been over four, five hundred students. As far as sports go, we didn't have the football and the basketball (unintelligible)? Oh yes. Yes, yes. Did you have any record teams that excelled or won the playoffs or anything you can think of? I can't recall if—we, we had good teams. We had good teams. Okay. How do you feel about the quality of education as compared to 1950s? Do you feel that education was better back then? Did the teachers—? I don't know. I think at that time when I was teaching, teachers were more sincere and dedicated and loved what they were doing. Now I, I loved teaching very much. At one time, say back in the 60s and early 70s, eighty or ninety percent of the banks and financial institutions were being run (unintelligible). Now you talk, I talk to teachers now who are teaching and they can't wait to retire because of the problems they're having. And a lot of it comes back to discipline, can't make the kids mind they say. I was permitted to paddle and I did paddle. And I made them mind if I had to push them back up against the wall and make them mind. Now you, you can't touch the kids and the kids know it. I guess I'm kind of getting off track here. (Unintelligible) But take for example, they made me retire. When I reached age sixty-five, they made me quit. I didn't want to quit. And I think at the time, (unintelligible) I don't know of a better qualified business teacher than I was because I'd had my own business in Chicago. I came here, I had my UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 12 business college. I was also doing public accounting. And I knew what made business take. So how much better could a person be qualified to teach business? But they made me quit because when I reached age sixty-five. Now the law has been changed, they can’t make you retire (unintelligible). What year was this that you retired? Sixty-nine. And when I retired fourthly, didn’t make any difference. The National Credit Union asked me to take over the management of the Federal Employee’s Credit Union down at the federal building, it didn’t close. And so I went down there and in sixty days I had it open. So I managed that until my wife Julie retired, then I retired. Been retired since. Did they have summer school? Was this common in the 50s and the 60s here in the valley? Summer school for high school students. (Unintelligible) As a teacher, you never were involved in a summer school program? No. No. I was never involved. So what did you do with your summers when you had that three month period? I had my business college and a bookstore. And I also did public accounting at that time too. Hm. So I had stuff to do. Was there much emphasis put on like going to college for the students? Did they encourage them to continue their education? Or was it just—? At least I did. I did. I did because as my example, I graduated from college. First, I went to college to become a teacher, that’s the funny thing about it. But for some reason I took accounting in college and liked it and someone wanted me to go to Chicago. So I went to Chicago, got there on a Saturday and Tuesday I went to work (laughs). And I went through the UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 13 Depression without ever being without a job. Then I got in poor health and came out here and then I fell back on my college degree to be able to teach. So I had a good selling point, even though you weren't going to become a teacher, you might sometimes be required to be a teacher (laughs). What universities were in the area at the time? There wasn’t any. Nothing at all? No. No. My wife helped start the university and I also helped out. I solicited funds to help the university start. And in fact, we teachers walked the street and solicited for funds to get the university started. What year was this? I can’t, I couldn’t tell you that. I think it was the 50s. So if a student wanted to go to college they had to go out of state? They had to go to Reno or out of state. To Reno? Yes. Was that the most popular place to go? I believe so. I believe so because of the tuition. Were there any scholarships (unintelligible) you recall? I don’t, I don’t know. Any business scholarships? Not that I know of. (Unintelligible) Do you know roughly what percentage of kids went on to college? UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 14 No. No. And as far as the parents being involved in the school, did they back you up as a teacher or become involved in any of the program? Yes, yes. And the students did too. When you said you were coming, I tried to find a letter that I received. I received it within the past five or six years. A girl wrote me a letter, and she didn't sign her name. She says, I want to thank you for the moral teaching you gave me. And (unintelligible). Hm (unintelligible). Was there a PTA organization or something? Yes, but I never involved with it. I, I don't think, I don't remember their ever meeting once. I think it pertains more to elementary schools then it does high school, but as far as I’m concerned, they never had any. What was your school board like? A good school board. They backed you up? Yes. Yes. (Unintelligible) That’s right. I never had any trouble with ‘em. And I was a strict disciplinarian (laughs). I talked to a man this morning when you said you were coming, asked him what— if he had a criticism of the school district, what it would be? And he says “lack of discipline.” I also think moral teaching, I always told my students I didn't care what church or religion they belonged to but to go to some church. Now the reason for this is, I'm not a Mormon but within a month after my class started, if someone asked me to identify the Mormon students, I think I would a got a ninety-eight percent grade. This is because of their actions, their respect for the teacher. They UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 15 were there every day, they wanted to learn. There was something about their attitudes towards life that was different from (unintelligible). What would be like the percentage of Mormons in your school at the time? Let's say maybe fifty percent. Fifty percent? (Unintelligible) That may be off ten percent either way, but they were good kids. Was there any type of bussing at that time? Did you—? No. There was—everybody provided their own transportation? That’s right. How many students did you have in an average class? Thirty. (Unintelligible) And what was percentage of teachers? How many teachers were in the high school? Maybe twenty. The whole school district could meet in a library. All the schools combined? All the teachers could meet in Las Vegas High School library. So you can tell we only had a handful of teachers. I don't know how many was in the district, but it wasn’t many because we could all meet in there, (unintelligible) small little Las Vegas High School library. We had a teacher’s meeting there and a credit union meeting. Were the classes run like all day or were they like split sessions? They were ran all day except I don't know what year it was, but it was after 1960, they started some kind of a staggering system. And I don't recall what that was all about either. But up until UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 16 then, classes would run from nine o'clock ‘til three o'clock. As a teacher, you're on duty during those hours. Did you ever have any problems like with weather and having to cancel school? Not that I know of. With the rain and the flooding? Not that I know of. Not that I know of. Did you have any special programs like for gifted children or special, you know, handicapped, learning handicapped kids? No. But I'll tell you this, teachers would spend extra time with the slow learners or give special assignments to the gifted. Now this was volunteer, voluntarily done. Now what percentage of the teachers did it or not? But there was no, as far as I can understand from the administrative level, where they had these special classes. But the teacher, being dedicated, was trying to help everybody. And it was nothing unusual to ask kids to stay after school, after class hours and work on their problems or whatever the difficulties they were having. I would say most teachers would, after the class was out, would spend another hour in the classroom with their students. And I don't know whether that's done now or not, but— So this reflects on the quality of education at that time? That's right. That's right. We had good education, I think, I think—of course, I'm not in the classroom now. I don't know but we had good teachers, dedicated teachers that loved their work and what I'm finding in talking to present day teachers, they hate their work (laughs). And that may be discipline is an important factor for students? Yes. Yes. UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 17 Okay, you've mentioned integration. Can you tell me something about, would you—up until like what year? These were predominantly white students? Or Mexican or what? Well, the colored students went to the Westside, they were over there. You didn't have any integration until you got into the high school level because there was no high school over there. In fact, I remember when (unintelligible) school administration were considering building a high school over on the Westside, and for some reason, couldn’t get financing for it in that area. I don't know—understand that but that was one of the problems. There was no integration as we know it today by bussing up until (unintelligible) and that was in the 60s somewhere. Did you notice any significant changes once it started? Yes. I think the quality of education was reduced because the quality of education of the colored students were below the quality of education of the white (unintelligible). Now, why that is? I don’t know. So when they were put together in a classroom, they couldn't compete together? That's right. You had to spend more time, you couldn’t progress as fast, that’s what (unintelligible). Was there any problem like with violence or racial—anything like that? Yes. I was knocked down one time by a colored student. I don’t care to reveal how that turned out but—. Did you have a problem with like white students and black students fighting? Yes. What—? Still having them today, you know, like what happened out at (unintelligible). And what was the percentage of blacks in a normal classroom? UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 18 (Unintelligible) (Unintelligible) But my big problem with teaching the colored students— (Tape one ends) Could you tell me again your problem with teaching the colored students? Was lack of attendance. And then I guess their education up to that time was not as good as the white students would have. But they seemed to think that they could get a grade whether they attended class or not and whether that was their normal way of going to school over on the Westside or not, I don't know. They wanted a grade whether they did the work or not or whether they attended class. Do you know anything about the schools on the Westside at all? Well, I taught over there for two months. And it was, it was really a problem because those were—I taught the eighth grade and to be real frank about it, I think the education level was not much over fourth or fifth, was their reading ability. Now these were all black students that you had? Yes. Yes. Over on the Westside, yes. How many white teachers were over there? About half, I’d say—I think over on the Westside school they probably had a gym teacher (unintelligible). Did you have white students over there at all? No. No. None at all? UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 19 Not that I remember. I don't remember having a white student in my class. I was only over there for two months. And the administration, were they all black? Well, no, the teacher was a white—I mean, the principal was a white lady (unintelligible). Over in—when you were at this school for the two months, was there materials available that would be the same as the schools like somewhere in the north east? Yes. Yes. Everything was the same? The textbooks were same kind of textbook. But take for example in dealing with arithmetic, my being a mathematician, an accountant, those kids just couldn't (unintelligible). They couldn't do eight grade work at all. Now that, this might come back to my experience in Las Vegas High—in Rancho High School, I was head of the business department down there and we had the what they call arithmetic class and eighty-some students enrolled for this class, and they only had one teacher. So I told the teacher that I had to make (unintelligible) and I give extra credit. And you give a test and I'll take the lower ones and you take the better one. So we split the class up so we'd have about forty-some apiece. Because there was eighty students enrolled in that class, as I remember. I never did get beyond adding, subtracting and division with these poor students I had. The first problem was to get them to put down their numbers so they could add ‘em. In fact, they even got (unintelligible) pads so that they could get these. And when they wrote the sequence down, they'd have them under one another so they could add ‘em. And I never got beyond just elementary fifth grade arithmetic with these kids in high school. I don't know why they were that way but it was incredible. UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 20 Do you feel that—you had mentioned before that the principal asked, told you to pass your students, that they didn't want to keep them around anymore. Do you think this could have happened earlier? Say, the first, second, third grade when they were getting the basics? I think so. I really think that, I think you're right. I think that would go right back all the way through passing kids on because of their age. Take these kids, they’re 18 years old, they're, they're grown boys and girls. Just like he said, we can't have ‘em around here any longer and naturally, they would graduate from eighth grade and then go over to high school. I think that group of kids like I had there would go over to high school, that they wouldn't be able to do algebra. So they would fall progressively farther and farther behind? Farther and farther and farther behind, I believe. Really, I think the most important teaching is done from the first to fifth grade. If a kid can't read, if you can't do elementary things, when he gets to high school he’s lost really. And I would say an education, the basic work is done in elementary grades. Now take Lincoln, as I understand, he never got beyond the third or fourth grade he become an educated man. My father never got beyond the third grade, he became a civil engineer. And this is all through self-education? Self-education. Were there any type of like vocational schools where they could teach these children—well, once they grew up—a skill rather than going on to college? The only skill college was the college I had for business. And secretarial. That was the only thing in the area? That's the only thing in the area. We had—I taught business and my wife taught secretarial. UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 21 Okay. You mentioned a bookstore that you had. Yes. Could you tell me something about when that was done? That was started in 1951. At the same time we started the business, we started the bookstore right in it. They ran together and they're still ran together. Anything that you can recall like that happened during 1947 up until 1960 that affected the town? Things that you want to talk about, any particular event that happened in Las Vegas that you can recall. I know we've been having a lot of fires lately. Was there anything like that at that time? No, no. Well, I saw the El Rancho Vegas burn down. What year was that? It’s funny, I can't give you these years. (Laughs) Was it during the 50s? Yes, yes. I would say, if I were to make it a guess, it was between 1950, 1960 something. Nineteen fifty— Now where was that located? Out on the Strip just south of—well it’s right, right across the street where the Hacienda used to be. Was this a large hotel—? Yes, it was— Casino. Casino, yes. It was (unintelligible). It was the large hotel, it was only one story but it was considered a large hotel. UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 22 But it wasn't as elaborate as the ones we have now? No. No, no, no. It was something like—I think the Last Frontier was made out of logs. It was, had that atmosphere of logs. You know, it looked more like a motel than a hotel. Those, those two hotels look more like a motel than the hotels we have today because they were both only one story. Now when they had the fire, was that arson or did they ever find the cause? Don't recall. Don’t recall, don’t remember. But (unintelligible) really burned it down. Most of the casinos that we have now, what years did they really start to come in? Well, the Flamingo opened in 1949. And then it was between—it was in the 50s when the big hotels, I think there were more hotels built in 1950 than any other time during the 50s. Did you find that’s when the population grew more? Yes. Yes, that’s right. Yes. Do you recall when the dam was built? I wasn’t here, no. That was prior then? See, that was built in 1933. Okay. (Unintelligible) Okay. So then gambling pretty much became a big thing out here? It increased (unintelligible) Gambling and entertainment. Entertainment made the town grow. Now that came in also in the 50s more? UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 23 That's right. That's right. (Unintelligible) entertainment and that was when Jimmy Durante (laughs) these screwballs came to town and they were something to see too, let me tell you. (Laughs) Okay. But I would say entertainment has made the—'course gambling is entertainment to a lot of people too, not just part of it. But entertainment’s what made this town grow. Oh another thing, our weather has helped. There's a lot of retired people. I understand there's over sixty-thousand senior citizens. And my wife and I are involved in the Senior Citizen Center, help out (unintelligible). Hm. And the Senior Citizen Center is a wonderful thing. It's like a YMCA for the old people. (Laughs) (Laughs) Okay. Your students, did you find that as entertainment and gambling increased, did they more think that that's what they wanted to do when they graduated? No. No. No one did? No, I don't take it had any influence at all. Do you remember what the main occupation that these kids wanted to achieve or become? To prepare? I think mostly teachers. I think they were going to college to become teachers. I believe, that would be my assessment. Something like that would also reflect on the quality— That’s right. UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 24 That you showed to them. That’s right. That’s right. Do you remember any particular prominent speakers that would ever speak at the schools? Anyone, either in government or entertainment or any type of assemblies? No, I don't remember having any outstanding speakers to come talk to the class. Okay. How about school bonds? Is this something that was your main funding for the schools? Yes. Through bond issues? Yes, yes, it’s through bonds. Yes. And you mentioned you had trouble in the west starting a high school because you couldn't get the funding. Yes. It was federal funding that we couldn't get for. I think that was—I don't think it was the local funding, it was federal funding that I think they were trying to get. I'm sorry, I can't give you the data on that. I know it was federal funding they were trying to (unintelligible) high school there. So whenever a bond was introduced here in the area, though, did you ever have trouble passing them or? Never. I don't remember of ever a school bonding (unintelligible). So that shows the parents were behind—. We've had good public support for our schools. Do you find that’s still continuing? UNLV University Libraries Harold McKay 25 Yes, I think so. If I was to criticize—now, this was one reason why I went from school administration back to teaching was that they hired a new superintendent from California. He took the place of R. Guild Gray and he started building a lo