Irving Junior Foreman interview, March 16, 1978: transcript

UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman i An Interview with Irving J. Foreman An Oral History Conducted by John Russell Foreman Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman ii © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2019 UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman iii The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman iv Abstract On March 16, 1978, collector John Russell Foreman interviewed Irving Junior Foreman (born June 25th, 1930 in Beaver, Utah) in North Las Vegas, Nevada. In this interview, Foreman speaks about his career in the construction industry in Las Vegas, Nevada. He also discusses the changes in the construction industry from the 1950s to the 1970s, including the machinery used. UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 5 March 16th 1978. The narrator is Irving Junior Foreman. It’s 7:00 P.M. The place is 809 Stanley Avenue, North Las Vegas, Nevada. The interviewer is myself, John Russell Foreman. I live at 208 ½ D South 14th Street, Las Vegas, Nevada. The project is History Oral Interview for History 117 at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. The topic will be construction on the street in Las Vegas. What I’d like to do dad, is to talk about what happened over the years, in Las Vegas, in the construction industry. What you’ve seen happen, any changes that have taken place in the way things are done and the people that you’ve seen. I know you worked pretty hard (unintelligible) Well, this can go back and cover a lot of the years really. Actually, I was working in the construction industry while I was still going to high school in 1947 and ’48. Actually, we were a relatively small town during this period. Construction was oh, just normally small tracks. Individual homes were being built. Excavation and paving for necessary roadways and parking lots that were going very slow at that time. Procedures have changed quite a bit from that time until now. Quite a bit is putting it mildly where I’d see it. Major (unintelligible) construction industry right now in the Las Vegas Valley and surrounding areas, really one of the hotspots for growth and construction in the United States. This is quite a change from when I first started into it. The town was somewhere around twelve to fourteen thousand people. It would be interesting to be able to look back and compare the building permit costs. It’s up in the hundreds of millions now, and I wouldn’t guess that it would be back when I started. But I imagine there was a hundred to a hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the building permits. And it would be a very substantial amount and you’d cover two or three small subdivisions that might have been going on at the time. The first major subdivision actually in Las Vegas, was the area known as Huntridge now, where I live. UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 6 Out by Charleston and Maryland Parkway? That was south east of the intersection of Charleston and Maryland Parkway. They’re all, to the best of my recollection, went as far south as Oakey and probably down in (Unintelligible) 15th Street, which, that’s not too big an area. There were several sections in that that was built. (Unintelligible) I don’t know what you’d call it at the time (unintelligible) That was (unintelligible) on Trop at the time? (Unintelligible) several sections in there. And it was in this general area. But you know about three blocks on the east, and that’s probably four or five blocks on Trop. Their methods of construction were a lot different then. All phases of construction, actually. The machines used in my line of work, in excavation and paving construction work, was slow, hard to operate, took a lot of time to excavate a street. Gravel was hauled in to (unintelligible) from trucks. Most of the asphalt road material was mixed right on the site, right on the road bed, then it was laid down, and rolled out (unintelligible) at that time. The road work was mixed right on the ground itself? The asphalt was mixed right on the ground, yes. But now they pour it on, don’t they? Well, all of your asphalt and concrete that they use now is produced in a big plant that actually mixes it up, and they put portions of gravel and asphalt and concrete and oils and then this was (unintelligible) and all that on the job, and it’s laid down, high speed laid down machines that actually lay a strip of just (unintelligible). And there’s various designs, and various special (unintelligible) for your various roads, which, your freeways have a lot different asphalt layer on them than a secondary road in the city, or the county, or something like this. It used to be that almost everything that was put in, that was paved had a six inch gravel base underneath it. UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 7 Supposed to be six inches, sometimes it would vary from two inches to six inches. And they’re supposed to be two inches of (unintelligible) asphalt on top. Sometimes (unintelligible) would be about half an inch in places. Other times, you might have three inches. Some of these contractors didn’t exactly stick with the specs? Well, let’s just say that the way that the equipment worked, there was a lot of excuses lined up that (unintelligible). Well there’s—there’s been an awful lot of change in the way these individual houses are built. Everything is plastered on the inside, (unintelligible) on the outside. Sometimes you had a (unintelligible) rock on the outside. But now, where they use drywall and the kind of stucco machines, (unintelligible) to finish a house is substantially less than it was years ago. Mostly be in the trails or the design, pre-fabricated for building a house now is or more or less just a matter of assembly. When I first started in the carpentry work, I was a senior in high school, everything was made on the job (unintelligible), made all your window frames. The doors were all hung by hand, hinges, door knobs everything like that, were put on by hand. You had to know a little bit about what you’re doing. Now all you gotta be able to have the capability to hammer and then the screwdriver (unintelligible) Kind of like (Unintelligible)? Houses aren’t built as well now as they are—as they were back in the ‘40s and ‘50s, are they? Oh, yes, I would say they are. There’s been a lot of technology advances that naturally will improve the house. Then they’re—they’re designed a little bit better, instead of having a square house with square rooms in it. You have ways to make them very livable and convenient. A lot of the changes in the electrical industry, air conditioning, and mechanical industries. They actually make a lot better house than—than all we had years ago. UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 8 (Unintelligible) It’s just not comfortable now. But we had to put together (unintelligible) on the inside, and the latest things were done by hand, twenty years ago, ten years ago. Weren’t the houses more sturdy back then than they are now? It depends a lot on the type of workmanship that went into it. There’s always been an industry for fast jobs, or you might say cheap jobs, to make the money off, and quality jobs where you put together with a lot of tiny (unintelligible). And this holds true today is as well as it was then. Some of your methods of construction in those days were not really oh, you might say, respected or controlled quite as verily as they are today, as a rule. But, politics enter into it sometimes and then (unintelligible). Oh, you might say there are real well designed materials that are available to everybody to use today. If somebody decides that they want to turn out a real cheap job, they can throw stuff together (unintelligible) real bad mistakes (Unintelligible) and it is an inferior project. There were inferior projects in those days too. But, this house that we’re living in right here was built, I would say, maybe, oh, between twenty-five and thirty years ago. The (unintelligible) structure in this particular house was not as good as the average subdivision (unintelligible) process and the (unintelligible) on the house. The floor was all single dimensional boards that were put together where somebody decided to use a table saw when they should’ve used a two by six. We didn’t know how to (unintelligible) design or bridge design to hold it together. Now when you’re (unintelligible) are all—they’re built to a specification that holds up real well and it just—it’s hard to actually put up the roof of the house. But it was very efficient. (Unintelligible) Well, do you remember any other subdivisions going in? Besides this one, and you mentioned the Huntridge earlier? UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 9 Well, there were several subdivisions. There was one that went in, that name—the names are really (unintelligible), 15th and oh, I believe that’s Bridger. 15th and 17th between Carson area and that. These were (unintelligible). I don’t remember too much about them because actually, I wasn’t involved in the actual construction of the houses or anything like that at the time. I was (Unintelligible) as a carpenter, then I got out of the carpet work, and got into excavation and paving industry. Started out driving a truck for a local contractor. Name was Bill Allen, (Unintelligible) here construction. The first work that I actually did for him, I drove a little converted World War II (unintelligible) truck. And this truck was leased out to Wells Cargo, which at that time, was one of the first paving on the streets, see. I guess this would’ve been about 12th Street down to (Unintelligible) Street. Go down (Unintelligible) on 3rd Street. That’s the last (Unintelligible) little dirt road in there. Wow. About what year was this? Let’s see. This would have been 1951. Wells Cargo (unintelligible) and equipment yard. Everything was located on East Fremont Street. In fact 21st Street crossed Fremont now. (Unintelligible). Does that have an equipment building in that area? Yes. It was the headquarters for Wells Cargo. Shortly after that, Wells Cargo moved out to (unintelligible) on Spring Mountain Road now. Spring Mountain Road crossed the railroad tracks. They’ve been there for quite some time. In fact, they still have a truck terminal in there, come out to the equipment yard and (unintelligible) west parking lot. Now Las Vegas was a small town. There was a (unintelligible) on Charleston and Main. (Unintelligible) cuts off at Charleston, parking off of Main over on to Charleston. (Unintelligible) It was just a big open area that we hauled gravel in. And put oil and asphalt in the mix. (Unintelligible) in those days UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 10 before, you had to haul the asphalt out to the job. I wasn’t—I wasn’t very much around out in that area again. There was a little bit of activity out on Cinder Lane, but this was later on, this was four or five years later, though, they set up a bus line out there that would later become (unintelligible). (Unintelligible) it was also a (Unintelligible) manufacturing plant out there. (Unintelligible) small contractors. That was about the (unintelligible) on Industrial Row, which now is all the way up and down Highland and Industrial, Western, several blocks on Spring Mountain Road. (Unintelligible) Charleston clear out there, south of the Tropicana Avenue. (Unintelligible) of the town at that time was Sahara Avenue, which at that time was San Francisco Street. There wasn’t anything south of San Francisco Street. (Unintelligible) I didn’t even know Sahara was called San Francisco Street. Yes. Tropicana was called Mountain Road. And it was just a gravel, like a, hardly a two lane road. (Unintelligible) gravel it was all you had on Mountain Road, which is now Tropicana. When did they change the names of the streets? I don’t recall exactly when. There’s been several name changes around. Just like Las Vegas Boulevard North and South and (Unintelligible) the side (Unintelligible) like that (Unintelligible) law so they could swallow it, so they thought of Las Vegas Boulevard North. Takes about ten minutes to say that (unintelligible). That’s how it always was with everybody around here, 5th Street. Then there was a big (unintelligible) operation, (Unintelligible) Elks Lodge sits right now. The Stewart Family raised cattle, grain, (Unintelligible) was in there. Their land extended from 5th Street down to what is known as 25th Street right now, on Eastern. Was a (unintelligible) trailor out there, that (unintelligible) 25th Street. (Unintelligible) to Eastern all the way through. Then you get out into North Las Vegas, and it’s Civic Center Drive. You didn’t have Civic Center Drive until just recently? UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 11 That’s right. (Unintelligible)? That’s right. (Unintelligible) for better or worse, (unintelligible). That was something that (unintelligible) boys headed down here because of the drastic (unintelligible) at the time. Part of the street somewhere (unintelligible), driving on the street in another direction while everybody started arguing about the names, and tried to come up with new names. So, this ranch you talked about your (unintelligible)? Yes. I don’t remember the names of these boys. There was family, two or three boys who actually worked in the thing, that worked on the operations or anything. I believe, if I remember, I went with (unintelligible) Stewart. I really just don’t know too much about the connections between the various Stewart families. Fact was, the (unintelligible) used to be a big swimming pool. There was no streams besides Las Vegas Creek (unintelligible). There’s a stream on down from up in the woods where the Biltmore, I think, then down past (unintelligible). Across Fifth Street, (unintelligible) swimming pool. And this was kind of a no man’s land between Las Vegas and North Las Vegas. North Las Vegas, at that time, I don’t remember for sure, they, I think they had just become incorporated as a city. (Unintelligible) Here you’re talking, what, early ‘50s? Right. Well, you look around town now and see the major concrete high rise construction that’s going on, and (unintelligible). The area has evolved from a little town into a major city with all of the advantages (unintelligible) utilized right now. (Unintelligible) there’s a lot of things that you remember in a short period of time like that. It has been quite a drastic change over a few short years. You’re talking the Sahara, used to be the boundaries of the town just a few years ago. (Unintelligible) UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 12 In 1959, I excavated on and built the first street that went south off of Sahara into the area around the International Hotel. This was a place that (unintelligible) with Main, (unintelligible) Road. It was (unintelligible) up there with (unintelligible). That was on Sahara. Why don’t we cut it off right here, and I’ll switch the tape over. Please turn the tape to the next side for the second half of this interview. (Tape one ends) Shortly after I went to work for (Unintelligible) Construction, I got a job to excavate the basement of one of the first phases of the Sahara hotel. At that time, there was a—a little thing—building, sitting out there, had been a Bingo parlor called Bingo Club. Apparently this had ceased operation and the Sahara Hotel was designed and promoted to be built on that site. So we (unintelligible) for years to do that kind of work, was a lot different then than it is now. Actually, the biggest loaders that we had was about a yard and a half capacity in the buckets. And the backhoe over here to build the trenches was an attachment that went on the front of these motors or tractor shovels. But it is— (Unintelligible) Pardon? Do you think by today’s standards, the equipment was pretty small or—? That’s right. The day they stepped into an excavation job like that, it was the hydraulic backhoe that has a bucket of a capacity probably, three, three and a half yards, something like this. And it had (unintelligible) through it, right through all of the rocks and caliche and such as, that I encountered. Caliche has always been a problem for the construction industry. The equipment was small and limited. ‘Course there wasn’t the demand to develop better modes of operation, so we had to do with what we had available. UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 13 The natural basement for the first building of the Sahara hotel was dug with two HD5L (unintelligible) motors. Part of the material was hauled away in dump trucks, part of it was utilized behind the site for fill. And all of the main trenches had to be filled and shot with dynamite and dark powder to get through this caliche. That was the only way that we knew how to break this stuff. Then, the cranes and headache balls, big backhoes, just were not capable of handling this type of rock. And the size of the equipment at that time was not capable of handling it. Now this was quite a major undertaking. I remember when we were shooting some of the caliche in the—in the trenches, this contractor that I was working for was actually frightened to death of anything that even resembled dynamite. Now he’d stick around there pretty close. I was just drillin’ holes in the bottom of the trenches, gettin’ ready to blow the holes with dynamite powder. And just as soon as that dynamite started going in that hole, he’d go and jump in his pick-up, and he’d take off, go down the street about a half mile, sat down there till he could see the rocks flying in the air, then he’d come back down. It’d take him about thirty minutes to make his way back into the job to make sure there wasn’t a shot that hadn’t gone off or something like that. This was quite a nasty little project. Water in that area at the time was about six feet below the surface. Basement was supposed to have been excavated at twelve feet, and of course as soon as we got down through that first layer of caliche, the water started coming in. Had to have pumps running in the hole all the time to keep the, the water out. You couldn’t get it all out. (Unintelligible) that stuff just like mud. And then we’d buy a new one. The owner at that particular time and an associate to the contractor that I worked for came out on a job and he didn’t particularly like the way that I was running the (unintelligible) and seemed to think I was taking too much time backing up out of the basement with bucket full UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 14 of materials that were down. So he came over and told me that he felt that he could show me how to do it a little bit more efficiently than the way I was doing it. So I came to (Unintelligible) a little bit, going up, he could teach me something, and I was sure willing to learn. So he went barreling down the bottom of this hole with the loader and got a great big bucket full, then charging back up out of the ramp, he started up the ramp, and he engaged the, pushed up the bucket, and the bucket kept going up in the air, and he got about halfway up the ramp the way to the (unintelligible) the bucket, over balanced the weight of the machine and the bucket came down on the ground and the back of the machine went way up in the air and the this fellow landed up on the hood with his face up against the radiator wondering what was going on. He got a few scrapes and scratches on him. Then he (unintelligible), release the hoist on the bucket, drop down and down, crawled off of it, didn’t say a word to me, just went and got in his truck and drove off. There’s been a few things like this that are real interesting. This was an example of the size of the equipment. I’d say a yard and a half bucket on a low tractor shovel like that was more or less a common occurrence. This is a common piece of equipment that you see on the job. Today it’s nothing to see a machine that will handle six to eight yards. And their high speed is very versatile and has much more power than we even dreamed would be available in that type of (unintelligible) back in those days. This must’ve been a little bit dangerous working with such small equipment on (unintelligible) wasn’t it? No. It just took more time to—to do the work. Any piece of equipment is dangerous, whether it’s little or big. But like this kind, you couldn’t overwork the piece of equipment without causing an element of danger. UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 15 Well, this is true with any equipment. A person has to be able to recognize a potential problem before it happens when you work around heavy equipment. If you don’t understand what the—what can happen, you can get yourself in trouble like that every day of the week. Naturally, a general rule is, the bigger a piece of equipment, the easier it is to operate, or the easier it is to do the work with, because it has the power and capability to do the work, and a smaller piece doesn’t. Oh, there’s many—many several examples of changes in equipment. I know that the first asphalt (unintelligible) that I worked at, worked on, had a capacity of 1000 pounds. (Unintelligible). Now, the general rule is the plan that can dump 6000 pounds. (Unintelligible) real good days work (unintelligible). 300 tons of asphalt, now it’s 3000 tons of asphalt if you’re layin’ in a days time. Trains are another real good example of the change in technology and equipment. A twenty-five ton train was a real good machine. It was a large machine. You got the thirty-five ton, (unintelligible) anything like that. Now, it’s nothing to see trains from rubber tire carriers that has capacity for 120-150 tons. Trains have set on tracks with capacities up to 500 tons. With the construction industry and mobile equipment like this, this is a real well designed piece of equipment to handle this kind of weight. The goal of the equipment is meant to help the construction industry here in Vegas, (unintelligible), made things a lot easier to build a lot more rapid (unintelligible)? Well, the reason for the development of the equipment is oddly, due to our inflationary economy, prices have gone up every (unintelligible) months, and every phase of our lives that you look at, well, they continue to go up. (Unintelligible) right now it’s a faster rate than ever. But, you got supply and demand. The contractor wanted to make more money so he looked for efficient equipment to do his work with. If the cost of his labor went up, and the cost of his materials, and parts of this nature, then he had to come up with some way to offset these added costs. There was UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 16 a gradual increase from the prices of work that was done. But the old equipment didn’t have the capability to turn out for production to make it feasible to use it at the increased cost, your labor, your materials. So it’s a vicious circle. Actually, a man with basic high speed equipment today doesn’t make any more on a percentage basis on these jobs than a man did thirty years ago with small, slow equipment. And I tell you, this is more or less the law of nature, you might say. You can’t, you can’t change the plan to man. There’ve been a lot of people that try, and a lot of people that have ideas, but in the back of their mind, what they might think might change this, it’s pretty hard to do it. It’s difficult to do any way at all. Well that pretty well (unintelligible) but in Las Vegas particularly, (Unintelligible) in the country, Las Vegas keeps growing faster and building more than most places around the country. Would you say that the construction industry profit on buildings is greater here in Las Vegas than other places around the country? No. No, the reason that Las Vegas goes at the rate that it does is the same as it has always been. We have land, and power, and water, and a beautiful planet. And it takes these prerequisites to develop any area. It just so happens that we’re blessed with a very good share of all of these things. Plus the fact that the weather is (unintelligible) than most other parts of the country. You might say this is a twenty-four hour a day town 365 days a year. The gaming industry is very definitely a contributing, a big contributing factor for growth. But gaming alone is not what has made this area grow. It has a lot to do with—with the farsightedness of some of the people that have been in the mainstream through the last thirty years. And a lot has to do with the idea that you can work twelve months out of the year here. You can play twelve months out of the year here. (Unintelligible) you can do this. UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 17 The construction industry has grown because of these things, not because of the construction industry itself. Construction goes wherever there’s a need for it. The interesting thing to me about being involved in construction is the idea that, during my lifetime, I’ve been able to sit here and watch this small town develop into a major city. At one time, I knew every street in town and we had had the contracts to put it in. I left the work area in the actual town of Las Vegas for about nine years and worked for the Atomic Energy Commission. Fifty-five miles north on the Nevada Test Site. (Unintelligible) had struggle (unintelligible) when I finally come back here to work in 1971. The town had more or less grown away from some phases of it. Took me about two years to catch up with everything and more or less get oriented again. There were all the new subdivisions and all the new streets were. And now it’s growing so fast that even though you work the night here on top of it every day, you can’t seem to keep up with it all. You go on another street on your way to work, and the street that you went on the day before, and there’s something being built that wasn’t there the day before. And this is in all areas of the valley. It’s sort of like that no matter which way you go. It’s going up, makes me wonder how long it will be before we have a million people here. Maybe not as long as some people think. It does seem like it’s growing like crazy all over the valley. (Unintelligible) But how can (unintelligible) cities keep growing at this pace, with the price of housing, the price of building, continually rising as it is? Well, how can our nation go the way that it’s going? During World War II there was 110-15 million people in the United States. Now there’s 209 million, or more. I don’t recall how anyone can (Unintelligible) Two hundred and thirteen million people. (Unintelligible) UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 18 (Unintelligible) in a short period of time from let’s say 1935 to 1975, ’77. Another 22 years, the United States has doubled in size. The population is what makes everything grow. I’m sure Las Vegas has much more development. Nevada is projected to be the top growth rate state in the Union in the next decade. I forget exactly, but it’s, in 1998, projected that the growth rate from now until then 84%. And that is the top area within the continental United States. And this has a lot to do with the idea that we do have a lot of area to grow. The state as a whole has a lot of area to grow. We have a good climate, we’re, you might say, the hub of the southwest. (Unintelligible) it is a desirable place to live. Nobody wants to live in the smog, nobody wants to live in the cold, nobody wants to live in (Unintelligible). And that’s why people come here, for dry, mild climate, a twenty-four hour town, and there’s what they might be looking for. Well, this is why (unintelligible). I have no idea how many contractors that are on now that are involved in this. The one phase has been (unintelligible), but I’m more interesting in excavation and paving. But I can remember for years, there were (Unintelligible) contractors in the Vegas valley, and they’d do two or three small operations, little individual jobs like that. But now it’s, twelve or fifteen major construction firms that do this type of work. And it’s hard to say how many do ‘em, maybe twenty-five, thirty, or forty of ‘em. Who were those two major excavators? Well, to begin with, Wells Cargo was the biggest one when I first got in working around here. The other (Unintelligible) Salt Lake City, came down here, and did the work out at Nellis Air Force Base. There were several intermediate companies (unintelligible) at one time doing as much paving work around town due to the fact (unintelligible). (Unintelligible) worked around town and the fact that he was more desirable contractors. J. M. Murphy was very prominent UNLV University Libraries Irving J. Foreman 19 around here for years. The outfit that I worked for took over most of J. M. Murphy’s equipment when he went out of business. And we did most of the work around here for a long time. A man by the name of Mindenhoff and (unintelligible) from Springdale, Utah came down here and he and oh, several of his associates and riding brothers went into business and they became the major paving contractors. Hauled in and hauled out (unintelligible). I first started out working for (Unintelligible) contractor. Person almost has to sit down and write a list of these people and see how it all ties in together and how it fits. Wells Cargo, there was an awful lot of hard work, very prominent work (unintelligible) kind of slacked off for a little bit, but now they’re right back in the (unintelligible). The (Unintelligible) construction is one of the main freeway and road builders right now. It started with the (unintelligible) and driving a truck (unintelligible) just doing odd jobs. (Unintelligible) (Unintelligible) Well, you either make it or you don’t. (Unintelligible). (Unintelligible) A real tough (unintelligible). (Unintelligible). A lot of hard work involved in (unintelligible). A lot of (unintelligible) Well that’s great. (Unintelligible) I think that about wraps up (unintelligible). Thank you very much. I appreciate your help. I know the library will appreciate it too.