Transcript of interview with Don Eckert by Robert A. Kamp, March 15, 1981

UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert i An Interview with Donald L. Eckert An Oral History Conducted by Robert A. Kamp Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert ii © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2017 UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert iii The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert iv Abstract On March 15, 1981, Robert A. Kamp interviewed Donald (Don) L. Eckert (born 1953 in Las Vegas, Nevada) about his experiences while living in Nevada. Eckert first explains the geographical boundaries of Las Vegas when he was first born and the types of recreation in which both youth and adults would take part. Eckert then discusses the Helldorado events and how they have changed over the years before describing how the University of Nevada, Las Vegas has changed as well. The interview then shifts to the topic of Eckert’s college major, hotel management, and then to a brief discussion about the MGM fire. Eckert also talks about horse racing in Las Vegas, changes in gaming, the Basic Magnesium plant, and the development of Mount Charleston. The interview concludes with Eckert’s thoughts on the legalization of gambling in other states and how that trend relates to the future of Las Vegas. UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 1 Don, you were born in Las Vegas in 1953; can you tell me what the geographical boundaries of Las Vegas was at that time? When I was growing up, Las Vegas was a relatively small town. The boundaries, I can remember when I was a child, the boundaries were through, like, say, Sahara Avenue to Eastern over to Bonanza Road up to Rancho Road, and that really include the size of Las Vegas. Anytime you went out of those streets, you were just out in the desert. There might have been a house or two out here or there, but that was really the size that was the town at that time. In respect to population, I would imagine it was about maybe 25,000 people at that time—very small town, not much bigger than Boulder City is today, really. About recreation when you were growing up, what did the people do for recreation? In those days, there were not any commercial businesses or anything geared towards recreation such as we have today; any recreation was put on by the community themselves (unintelligible) since the only recreation we had was Lake Mead, if you wanted to go out and go swimming or finishing, such as that. An in-town recreation place was what, today, is called Lorenzi Park. At that time, it was Twin Lakes. They had a very large swimming pool—one of the few swimming pools in the town at that time, and I think it was a charge of fifteen cents or a quarter to swim in the pool, and they made furnished towels and everything, and in those days that was the place for teenagers to hang out in the summertime. That was the place to go and be seen, you know, we would go over to Lorenzi Park and go swimming. The other forms of recreation—teenagers, at that time, used to ride Fremont Street in their ’57 Chevys, riding Saturday nights. They would just cruise up and town Fremont Street, lack of nothing else to do. There used to be a lotta high school dances that young people were involved in and everybody went to the dances. As far as adult entertainment, there were a few movie theaters; the one I can recall is the Huntridge UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 2 Theatre. And I think—yes, there was one downtown, the El Portal Theatre was downtown. And so maybe there was only two motion picture theaters in the town. And of course, there were a few night clubs out on the Strip at that time: the El Rancho and the Flamingo, of course. And that was really about all your adult entertainment there was at that time. Could you think about, compared to today, what activities led up to Helldorado, and did it play more of an active part in the community twenty years ago, as it does today? And what is Helldorado? Helldorado, I really don’t know for sure what was the beginning of Helldorado—best I can remember, it was really celebrated every day, and it was like a Western state celebration. And yes it does, or it did play a bigger part of the community twenty-five years ago, because I can remember Helldorado—the whole community became involved. It started on Thursday, they kick off the Helldorado events. There used to be at least three parades at that time, and today I think there’s only one parade—they cut it down to one. But on Friday, there used to be the old timers parade, and that would consist of the all the old stagecoaches and the old wagons, and everybody would dress up back, Western wear, you know, way back during the Western days, cowboys and Indians, that type of thing. Saturday would be the kids parade, and the entire parade would be geared towards kids, with the clowns and fire engines, and they would throw out candy to all the kids and that kind of thing. And then, of course, on Sunday was the largest parade of all, and that was the beauty parade, you might say. That included all the floats, and each hotel, big business, put together a float, and they spend thousands and thousands of dollars putting these floats together, and they were absolutely gorgeous and beautiful. And also involved with Helldorado, and of course, the biggest recreational thing, was the Helldorado carnival. And in those days, that was the only carnival we ever saw. And it was quite large at the time, and it was UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 3 the only carnival near Las Vegas, not like today where you see a carnival at Vegas Village and you see one over at Montgomery Ward’s—Helldorado was the only time we had such a carnival. And the community, like I said, was quite involved. They would go down two and three days before Helldorado, chain up their chairs and chase lounges down on the street and chain ‘em up to the parking meters. They would spend two or three days building the bleachers for people to see, to sit in, and you’d have pay tickets to sit in the front row bleacher, and of course the higher ones were a little bit cheaper. But the whole town got involved. All the businesses were closed that day and everybody went to the parade, and it was a community event. And when I mean a community event, everybody—and you saw your neighbors and old friends you hadn’t seen for a while, and the whole town became involved. Is there any special event that has faded away in time that was observed when you were growing up? Well, of course, Helldorado is still with us in 1981. I think the community is not so much involved, and it’s not as—like I said, they cut down the parade. The parades aren’t near what they used to be. Another community event that I can think of that we don’t have today: when I was growing up, a good sign that Christmas was coming when they strung the lights up downtown along Fremont Street. Of course, in those days, when you went anywhere, went shopping paid bills or whatever, that’s where you went was Downtown because everything was Downtown. And when we were children and we saw the lights being strung up, we knew that it was becoming Christmas and getting close to Christmas. And one thing I can remember in particular, before they lit the Christmas lights up Downtown, after they got ‘em all strung up, they would have a parade on Saturday night, and the whole community went down to see the parade, and it would involve different floats and entries and this and that. But at the end of the UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 4 parade, of course, was Santa Claus with Nevada Power’s representative, Kilo the Kilowatt. And as Santa Claus passed down Fremont Street, that would signal the lighting of all the Christmas lights downtown. And of course, we don’t see that parade today like we did then. Don, you completed all your years of school in the Las Vegas school system. Can you tell me what high school you attended or about how many people graduated from your class and what year did you graduate? I attended the Las Vegas High School, and I graduated in 1971, and (unintelligible) graduating class at that time, I guess, was about 375 or maybe 475 at the time. You also attended UNLV; can you give me any information how the school was when you were attending there—what size? At the time I attended, began attending college at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, I believe there was 4,000 students. At that time, it was still a small university. They still had the older buildings. The newest building that was built when I was attending college was the humanities building. They started that from scratch when I started, and they completed it, I guess, it was about my second year of college. Since I’ve graduated, they built major buildings out there, a lotta new major buildings, and the student body, I imagine, is at least 10-, 15,000 now. They’ve almost tripled in size. Don, can you give me any information on what the university’s prior name was, and how did the change come about? The prior name to UNLV was just simply University of Nevada. Why they changed it to the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, I don’t know. I can remember when I was growing up in junior high and high school, the college was so small that teachers and students (unintelligible) had the nickname of Tumbleweed Tech because the university consisted of maybe a class or two UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 5 here or a class or two at Las Vegas High School at nighttime, and maybe they had all of ten courses. So, the college was quite small. Is there anything that you can tell me that happened at UNLV while you were attending (unintelligible) fads that were going on at the time? When I was attending college, two things that stick in my mind in particular, when I was going to college, of course, one was the Vietnam War. A lotta students protested that; a lotta people were against the war. They had nonviolent protests at the University of Nevada. Of course, they were peaceful demonstrations. A lot of students went, at that time, just to get out of going, putting in service for the government, and of course the war ended when I was in college, and that just kind of blew over once the war was over. On the more humorous side (unintelligible) what I can remember happening in college was the streaking fad at that time. That came about and started at one of the universities back east and just kind of spread out to the west. And of course, we had a few streakers on campus and this and that, and the regents or whatever really frowned on that. If you were caught, you were arrested or whatever. But that was the most humorous fad that happened when I was in college. Your major was hotel management; was there anything that you can say about the course (unintelligible)? When I began at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, hotel was one of the major programs out there; of course, it was in the beginning stages. And even at that time, it was an excellent program, and as I went through college, the program became bigger and better all the time. It covered all areas of hotel management, especially getting the students in the hotels for some practical experience. The only thing that could improve the program, and I know that they’re having trouble getting funding for it, is some labs—labs for teaching students how to cook prime UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 6 ribs, putting together some sauces—so actual in-laboratory experience as far as working with foods that you can’t get out of a text. You can read all about eggs, but when you hand somebody a spatula and you tell ‘em to flip an egg, it’s hard to get that out of a text. And therefore, that will be a major improvement, and I know the hotel department has been pushing that even when I was in college. Don, since you lived in Las Vegas all your life, is there any disaster that occurred that you would like to comment about? Ever since I’ve been growing up in Las Vegas, Las Vegas had been really disastrous-free, outside of every once every five or ten years, we’d get a good flood through the valley. The biggest one that I can remember was one at Caesars Palace there—wiped out all those cars at that time. Do you know what year that was? It was approximately, maybe ’73, ’72, right around that time. The only big event that I can remember happening—of course I wasn’t alive at the time, but a major story—Carole Lombard was flying out of McCarran International, which is where Hughes Airport is today—at that time it was McCarran International—but she flew out of here, and of course the plane was a commercial plane and it crashed into Black Mountain. And at that particular time, Clark Gable was going with Carole Lombard at this time, and they had to form a pack team and everything to go up into the mountains to see if there were any survivors or anything. The following day, Clark Gable came to Las Vegas to investigate, you know, find out if Carole was still alive or there was any chance of finding her alive or anything like that. The biggest disaster since I’ve lived here that I can ever remember happening was the MGM fire. It was the largest thing that’s ever happened in Las Vegas, and I can always relate to the town having emergency drills, like they’ll UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 7 go out and pretend a plane crashed at McCarran and all the firetrucks and everybody would get involved, and they would have students for bodies and this and that and patch ‘em up and this type of thing. And with the MGM fire, that training had paid off; a lotta people were saved because we had been prepared for a disaster, and fortunately, we’ve been fortunate we haven’t had any up until MGM fire. And even with the MGM fire, I think it’s pointing out areas that we need to be trained in and maybe some equipment that we need to have for these tall buildings that we don’t have. But by far, the MGM is the largest and most serious disaster Las Vegas has ever had. Since you work at the Barbary Coast right across the street, were you working at the time of the fire? No, I wasn’t in the hotel physically at the time of the fire. Some of my employees were at the hotel, were on duty at the time the fire occurred. And from talking to my employees and things like that, it was just unreal what had happened, because it happened to fast. To them, it was just like watching a disastrous movie, but here it was in real life, of people screaming, hollering, just flooding the hotel in their robes and, you know, what whatever they could grab to put on—people in hysteria, screaming about their relatives and close friends, were they still alive or dead. And people running around saying, “My God, I saw a body and bodies,” people (unintelligible) that were in the hotel had minor injuries, scrapes, little bit of smoke inhalation. And of course, you know, the entire casino was shut down, and it was really turned into just one large emergency. And of course, there was nothing else that could be done. You just had to do it; it wasn’t a question of could, should we do it or—the hotel was just turned into an emergency room, ‘cause it was just filled with people in hysteria. UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 8 Don, you had mentioned something about the Las Vegas Downs in Las Vegas and that it wasn’t a new thing to Las Vegas. Could you elaborate on that? Yes, Las Vegas Downs is the newest racing event in Las Vegas; however, it’s not the first. The first racing track we had was located where the Las Vegas International Hilton is today. That was quite far the largest full-scale track in Las Vegas. It was set up for dog racing and horseracing. It had full complete bleacher and bleacher stands with the overhead canopy. They had professional races all the time. They stables are located where the fire station is today on Desert Inn; all that area back in there was riding stables and training area for the horses. Of course, at that time, the city was not large enough to support a racetrack, and at that time there was no near the influx of tourists that were interested in racing at that time, so the racetrack was since tore down and went out of business. About what time are we speaking? What year was this? Oh, I would say roughly around 1958, 1960, right around there, was the time that was tore down. Then shortly after that was a period of maybe five years, another smaller racetrack was built in the land area between the Silverbird and Sahara, and that time, it was built by the Thunderbird Hotel, and it was, here again, was a full racetrack, had complete horse facilities; however, they did not have bleachers or anything. It just had standing, you stand and watch from down-level. And that since went to the wayside; there wasn’t enough business to support that. And then a period of a few more years went by, and somebody came up with a land scheme of putting in a dog racetrack out in Henderson, which was exactly where Las Vegas Downs is today. However, it wasn’t really a, started to put in a racetrack; it was more of a land scandal to get people involved and take money, and once all the stock had been sold and this and that, there was no construction or anything of the type. They did break ground out there, and then the land set there UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 9 for a period of about ten years, and recently somebody has taken it over, whatever, has developed into Las Vegas Downs. Whether it will stay in business remains to be seen. Since we’re talking about gaming, is there anything you can remember, the years that you lived here, that differs in the type of gaming that we do have now? Is there any other gaming that was once a big time deal which isn’t too much now? In respect to gaming and the way it was way back when, it has become larger, more sophisticated, especially in the area of technology. Way back from when I know when I was growing up, all there used to be was 21 tables, and the real old hard slot machines. And why, today, everything’s electronic—look at your keno boards, look at your modern slot machines, everything’s electronic. You never saw electronic black machine or electronic keno board and all that you see that today. I think that years ago, in respect to gaming, people that came to Las Vegas were treated better. Local people knew guests that came in town, gamblers, they were known personally. People would come to town and the cab drivers would know the heavy gamblers that would come into town; it was a more friendly town at that time. And the waiters, waitresses, everybody on the Strip knew these people, and they were just like family. You said, “Hi, how you doing, how are the kids?” You know, “When you coming back?” “Yeah, we’ll be glad to see you this fall,” and this type of thing, and we don’t have that today. It’s very impersonal, and of course that has hurt Las Vegas, and that’s evident by the Las Vegas Visitors Bureau with their I love Las Vegas theme. Years ago, we didn’t need a theme; it was based on personal, friendly service. Don, you are in the hotel/restaurant business. Is there anything that you would like to say about what is different about the Las Vegas restaurant business compared to other cities across the nation? UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 10 In answer of your question, yes, Bob, Las Vegas food industry differs greatly than any other industry in any other city in the respect that the food industry in Las Vegas is number two on the list. People in any other town when they go out, say, California, whatever, when they go out for the evening, a big part of their entertainment is just going out and entertaining friends at dinner in a nice steakhouse or whatever, and that is the number one thing, too. And restaurants, of course, charge more than Las Vegas does, and as a result, in Las Vegas, people don’t go out to entertain guests with food; they go out and entertain guests with gambling and entertainment. And when people come here and lose a lot of money, food is secondary. After they lose their money, then they want eat. And in the hotels, part of the food industry is the ticket to get that gambler into the hotel. The ninety-nine centers, their specials, your special buffets, your $2.99 this and that attracts the people into the hotels; so, therefore, they spend their money in the hotel—they gamble. People think they get a bargain on the food, so then they said, “Oh, well, now I can afford to gamble in this hotel.” And so, therefore, the food is the secondary poignant interest compared to other cities. Food is an attractor to the casino, and the price is the attractor, and nowhere else in the world can you get two eggs, hash browns, and bacon for ninety-nine cents? There’s no other restaurant in the world can profit off a ninety-nine cent price, ‘cause it costs more to put that food out than ninety-nine cents. Any other restaurant would go under at those prices; so, therefore, the gaming holds up the restaurant industry in the hotels. Don, there’s a condemned structure on Lake Mead Drive to Lake Mead, which is no condemned. Can you tell me what that was and why it does not function today? The structure you speak of is the remains of a magnesium plant, and the whole purpose of the magnesium plant was put there to obtain magnesium to build, I believe, was aluminum for the UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 11 war. When the war came along, they needed the magnesium to produce—and I’m pretty sure it’s aluminum that makes aluminum. This is World War II? Yes, this is World War II, and it’s my understanding, there’s a very large deposit of magnesium out there. And of course, during the war, all those materials were in dire need, and they built a plant—I believe it was built by the government, and after the war was over, there was no need for that big around of magnesium to be processed. On a personal note, my father used to work at that plant. He was one of the engineers at the plant during the war. Of course, at that time, there was nothing but a two-lane highway between there and Las Vegas; Boulder Highway was not the highway it is today. And, in fact, that brings up another thing I can remember: at one time, there was a trailer port in just the other side of Henderson that housed people for the magnesium plant, and also at the dam at that point, they were building the dam. And within this trailer port was so large, it was the largest city in the state of Nevada. There was more people who lived in this trailer port than any other city in the state of Nevada, and that was larger than Las Vegas. Of course, we’re talking about during the war at that time, but not too many people are aware of that. Of course, that trailer park is no longer there today; I think there’s a few concrete foundations left out there. But that used to be the largest city in the state of Nevada. Don, you had mentioned that your mother was born in Nevada in Moapa Valley. Can you relay any stories that she might have told you (unintelligible) to the early days of Nevada? Yes, I can. As you mentioned, my mother was born in Moapa, which is a very small town, fifty miles outside of Las Vegas (unintelligible) close to Overton, and she was born there in 1907, and she was born in a tent in Moapa. And how she became to be born in Moapa is that her father was sent out her by the railroad, Union Pacific, to get the people of Overton to ship their vegetables UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 12 and grapefruits on the railroad to LA and Utah. And of course, he did come out here, and my grandmother happened to be, you know, pregnant at the time with my mother, and it just so happened that this is where she born. And of course, as it was then, it is today. There isn’t but maybe five or six structures in the whole place; it’s just a little junction where the railroad comes by and was part of an Indian reservation. And my grandfather started a liquor store there. What year was this? 1900s, 1910, right around there. And he started a liquor store in Moapa and became financially secure, believe it or not, with just the liquor store there, and he began to develop into other businesses, and he felt the business would be supplied the Union Pacific Railroad with all the materials they needed: pics and shovels—he had the commissary to feed all the workers of the railroad at that time—they were building a railroad between here and LA and Utah area, and as a result, my parents moved to Las Vegas in 1942, and at that time there wasn’t anything but the depot downtown, really. My parents purchased a house on Sixteenth Street in Las Vegas, and at that time, there was nothing between their house and Downtown but desert. They bought one of the first tract homes in Las Vegas. And of course, at that time, everybody thought my parents were crazy to buy a house in Las Vegas out here in the middle of nowhere, but they did, and Las Vegas has grown into a town that has—also, my aunt had one of the first lingerie ladies apparel stores in Las Vegas. And my grandfather had one of the first food stores in Las Vegas; the store, I believe, is located down where the Horseshoe is today. What about your aunt’s apparel shop, where was that located? It was located, I believe, about a block off of Fremont Street, somewhere right around Third or Fourth Street. And of course, they had a house down on Third and Fourth Street, that’s where they lived and they maintained the store from there. UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 13 Did the hotels and big business, did they buy these stores out when they built up the area down there? Yes, as the area built up, you know, just like any other town, businesses come and go, and some of the larger businesses came in and took over some properties. The hotels began to start building at that time. There was only, I think, two hotels in the town at that time; that was right down on Main and Fremont Street right across from the Union Plaza, because where the Union Plaza is today used to be the railroad station. There used to be a big park in there, and I can remember when I was little, really, that was the only transportation in or out of town unless you went by car, was the Union Pacific Railroad. Passenger trains were quite frequent in at that time, and if you went to LA or Utah, it was a good eight-hour ride. There was very limited airplane passenger service at that time, maybe you’d have one flight a day or two flights a week—I think that was all the airplane service they had in those days. To take a trip from Las Vegas to LA by car back in the forties was a sixteen-hour drive, and of course, in those days, they used to—I remember my mom saying, well, it was twenty flats between here and LA. And miles weren’t so much as how many flats you had between two points, you know, but it was a minimum sixteen-hour drive between Las Vegas and LA. Don, could you give any history on what Mt. Charleston has brought to the state of Nevada as far as industries or things that have been up there that are no longer up there today? Mt. Charleston over the years is relatively unchanged. Of course, today there is a few more cabins up there, there’s a few more people that live in the canyon itself. Mt. Charleston was originally a logging camp, and I believe it goes back to 1910, was just a minute little logging camp in the Kyle Canyon section where, what they refer to as Old Town today. And very few people frequented up there until the fifties; then it became a recreational place, the mountains, UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 14 you know, get away from the desert heat, this and that. Also, I can relate to across the fire station in the Kyle Canyon side, there used to be a casino up there, and this casino was referred as The Lodge, and it was built by, at that time, the owners of the Hacienda, and they built the casino up there. They also had the first ice skating rink in Las Vegas; they had an outdoor ice skating rink and a little casino and a restaurant, and I think, I don’t know, maybe it had ten or so rooms. And that was open for, oh, about ten or fifteen years if I recall, and that was one—you asked about recreation—that was one of the places where Las Vegans went to get a little recreation, go up the mountains, get out of the heat in the summertime. And the wintertime, there was snow up there, and that was the only place that you could ice skate at the outside ice skating rink. And at that particular time, they had a little bit of foresight about, that it would be a great area to expand in. And the, as I said, the owner of the Hacienda, I believe it was the wife of the owner, had great plans and everything to expand the casino and make it a larger operation, and as she completed the plans and they were getting to develop the area up there, they had a suspicious fire and burnt The Lodge down, and it was unfortunate, but the owner had passed away, and therefore her plans were never carried out, for whatever reason, we don’t know—remains to be seen, but at that particular time, there was a casino up in Mt. Charleston. What about the skiing recreation in Nevada? Has that always been up there? That’s been a relatively new adventure, oh, I’d say, somewhere around ’65, ’67, in there, they began to develop Lee Canyon and make a little bit of a ski run up there. Of course, the biggest trouble is the amount of snow that they can expect to get each year; some years are great for skiing, they get a lotta snow, but if you take, for instance, this year, there’s hardly any snow, and the skiing is very limited if there’s no snow. But that’s been a relatively new adventure in the last fifteen years, the skiing up at Lee Canyon. UNLV University Libraries Donald Eckert 15 Don, I’m gonna sum up this interview and just ask you your opinion: what do you think about other states legalizing gambling, such as New Jersey? What do you think Las Vegas’s future is going to be like? Well, my personal opinion is I—these, you know, a lot of these other towns and this and that are developing gaming and they’re developing hot spots—New Jersey, as you mentioned, Atlantic City and this and that—I don’t think any of these cities will ever become a competition to Las Vegas. Certainly, they are out there, we do need to keep an eye on ‘em, but as long as Las Vegas has been here, it’s world-known, Las Vegas is a gambling town. It’s the entertainment capital of the world, and I don’t think any town, you know, in a few years, ten years, is going to automatically become another Las Vegas, because we’ve been, you know, fifty years are coming up, our fifty-year anniversary, and no other town can come up with fifty years of experience and publicity and newsworthiness that Las Vegas has. And I don’t think any of these other states, it appears that they have the control on the gaming as Las Vegas does. Certainly, we have to be competitive, and we have to maintain and stay on top of our business. I don’t think any other town can do it better as Las Vegas can as far as gaming and entertainment. Okay, thank you. This completes the interview with Donald L. Eckert. It was recorded March 15th, 1981 between the hours of eight and ten thirty p.m. at the Barbary Coast Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. I would also like to add that Don’s parents are both still alive and well living here in Las Vegas, and that if a professional interviewer was to interview them, he could probably gain some really important facts concerning the Las Vegas area and the state of Nevada. And if someone was interested in doing this