Transcript of interview with Georgie Clark by Steven E. Pilgram, March 2, 1980

UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark i An Interview with Georgie Clark An Oral History Conducted by Steven E. Pilgram Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark ii © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2018 UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark iii The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark iv Abstract On March 2, 1980, Steven E. Pilgram interviewed river runner, Georgie Clark (born on November 13, 1910 in Chicago, Illinois) at Sambo’s Coffee Shop in Las Vegas, Nevada. This interview is an in-depth discussion about the Colorado River area, including changes, and new rules and regulations. Georgie also recalls working as a real estate agent and as a ferry command, civil servant in World War II. UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 1 The informant is Georgie Clark. The date is March 2nd, 1980 at 7:15 AM. The place is Sambo’s Restaurant on Tropicana and Pecos in Las Vegas, Nevada. The collector is Steve Pilgrim, 1500 Newport Street, Las Vegas, Nevada. The project is Local History Project, Oral Interview, Life of a Las Vegas Old-timer. Okay. I think the main thing, let’s see now, that I’m looking for, you know, that I want to try to get somewhat, on this tape here. Mm-hm. Is your impressions of that river, what you know about that river, how the river’s changed and how the whole thing’s evolved, you know, so, the place to start would be when did you first come to this area? Yes. You know, and start with that river. Mm-hm. Okay. Is this tape going now? Yes. (Laughs) Yes, it’s going. We’ll just let it run. I first came down, I had come out actually from Chicago and then was living in California, and was really looking for water. ‘Cause in Chicago I was born right on the lake and it’s the one thing I knew was water because I’d swim out at Lake Michigan. I learned to swim there and it was free and being born poor and I just knew water from the very beginning somehow my nature’s water and I was born under the sign Scorpio so it was a real true sign it this case. (Laughs) (Laughs) Yes. UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 2 So my daughter had been killed. I had had a daughter who was killed in a bicycle accident, with me, in California. Then I had a friend who brought me up and said, “Oh you there, let’s go up on the lake in a boat and do some hiking.” And nobody had heard of it, at that time nobody knew much about Lake Mead or the fact you could hike up on the upper reaches of it at all. The top of the lake has a lot of canyons you could really hike out of but then it wasn’t the thing to do Hiking. When was then? In ’44. Forty-four. It was right after her death. So then when we come up in ’44 and we went up by boat and then hiked around some and I kept looking up the river ‘cause we went up to where the actual river comes in the lake and I said, “Oh, why are we here? How come we’re not coming down the river?” And so then he pointed out all this massive trees that we couldn’t go no further. Because you used to have these terrific jams that would be a mile long sometimes with the trees, nothing could get through it. Where the river come into the lake? Come in and then it was big trees. This wasn’t just little pieces of driftwood. Now everybody thinks you really have wood if you get a few pieces of, of just you know, twelve inches long of wood and then they all they weigh, these massive trees coming down and a whole river of it, and it made the difference, that people don’t understand. I have some film, which I possibly will give the library somewhere along, which shows a mile and a half of driftwood, right at the top of Lake Mead, that has come down out of the river. Just solid? UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 3 Solid. That river’s just like clogged up in a natural way. And it has to take and ore and you know, push your wood aside and everything to get through it. It was quite a problem, quite a thing at that time ‘cause nothing could come up. And so that made a big difference in the river run. So he said, “Oh nothing can come up.” So, I said, “Well, let’s swim down the thing.” I said, “I know water, let’s get a preserver on and hike somewhere in it.” At that time, remember, no maps, nothing was out there, just, didn’t know anything about it. So then that winter I talked him into it, Harry Elson was his name, of going with me, with just life preservers and hiking from the north rim, just we, down into the river, and so, then that we scrammed the first year, and that was real bad because it hadn’t thought of whirlpools and all and while I wasn’t as really good a swimmer as he was, yet I oh had been used to rough water in Chicago and been used to holding my breath a lot and this type of thing. (Laughs) Which is what counted in the whirlpools ‘cause nobody swims anyway, and with the life preservers, it’s mainly a case of holding your breath. Just hold on (Laughs) wait till you bob up. And to stay together we had learned to have a wrist lock because we found real quick there was no other way you could stay together at all. Hm. Because then you had tremendous backwater and if you did one could be going down stream and the other one going right back up the other way. And we got separated the first day and after that we just learned how to have this wristlock and so we couldn’t get separated. So we had a UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 4 tremendous education because then you had so much backwater it went back just as fast as the water came down. What caused all this backwater? The shells. You say then it was? The shells and the rock. Well, the heavy floor of the water and the (unintelligible) and the rock, when it goes again. Mm-hm. It makes this backwater that goes in the other direction and so we had quite an education because this new buddy also never been in there and we sure hadn’t been in and then the wood gave you a lot of problem because you were very fearful of these big trees. If they got in the whirlpool with you, had more fear of them than anything really ‘cause they had a lot of sharp branches and twigs and all this type thing on ‘em. Tear you up. And tear you up. So we was real, we were greatly bothered. In fact, it gave us problems all the way. Mm-hm. ‘Cause then when you got clear down and the very first night was one of the worst because then we got into a whirlpool and went down—if you don’t, if you come up in the circle there’s no way that you’re gonna get out. You’re just going back down again and so then we went down the third time, and I know my chest was hurting, I thought boy if I have to, if we can’t get out this time I’m through. And some people asked how long we were down and this is a ridiculous UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 5 question because when you’re out like this and going you know in a whirlpool, why, you’re certainly not counting time or nothing. (Laughs) Yes. You’re not swimming with your stopwatch. And you’re sure not looking, no, you didn’t have watches and they weren’t waterproof and you wouldn’t be looking. So, when anybody talks like that they haven’t really been there because it’s just something you’re not thinking about. (Unintelligible) All you’re thinking about is holding your breath till you get some air. However you can do it. Right. Being caught in the big waves coming in to surf or something. All you’re thinking about is getting on for air. (Unintelligible) So then the third time it threw us against a wall. Well, we had found that we had a terrible time getting out because further rapids where we were afraid to try to make it for sure to try swim ‘cause you can’t swim too much anyway, in a life preserver. Remember we had the (unintelligible) life preservers on, and you can’t swim quite that much in a preserver anyway. And we was afraid that we’d get caught and go up again those rocks, it would try to go where there wasn’t too much water. Mm-hm. So then the water was so fast in the narrow canyons that neither could we pull out, so this whirlpool through us against this one wall and it was a little rock break down, then it was out of the whirlpool that we grabbed on, too, and so then, you lose a lot of strength, beneath the two of us, which we normally could get up on easy, ‘cause you’ve lost a lot of strength; was real hard to UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 6 get up on and we finally got up on it. It was a little teeny breakdown and was just room enough for us to sit there that night. So we just sat and shivered the night through. Where—where was this at? Does this—? In the river. Well at that time now, I didn’t know, all I could say is it was down below (unintelligible) but I can’t tell you where now; remember at this time it was our first trip in the Grand Canyon. Right. And then we don’t even know where we came in at, really. Because at that time— The exact spot. We just got there, that’s all. Do you know what rough spot before you came into this end? Oh, no. Because at that time you just, there was just, was nothing on the ground. You simply were going blindly to hit the river and that was all. And I know a lot of things that happened then. I have looked for ‘em since. Mm-hm. And since I knew the river and in fact it took me a long time then to know the river because there was different levels of water. You have to learn not to look at shore but to look high up at the peaks. Because when you go from low water and we were swimming in about seventy-five thousand cubic feet a second and when you learn that when the snow is gone at that time everything was from the snowmelt. Right. And when the complete snow melt occurs you can get anywhere, seventy-five thousand, ninety thousand, a hundred and twenty-five thousand cubic feet of water and this depends upon the UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 7 amount of snow you had and then how hot it is. If it melts it once or if has two melts; like sometimes you would have it hot and some snow would melt and then it would get cold. Then you’d have the second and then you could see you would have less water then, then you would if you had one big melt (unintelligible) It’s like spring and early summer, you’re talking about? Yes, now you never, people don’t know this type of thing now because of course everything is controlled by a dam now and your cubic feet (unintelligible) the water is controlled by the dams. Mm-hm. And now you never hardly get water in fact we battle like everything now to have five thousand cubic feet of water if you can think of it. The average trip now is on five thousand cubic feet of water. Is what’s running down the Colorado now? Yes. And then to take a trip on and then they cut it down at night to clear it down to two thousand, three thousand and sometimes lower. So nowadays it’s so different than when you really had that water, you know, because the common water, unless you had a year of the drought then that was another subject. In ’53 and ’54 was drought years, of hardly no snow, and so that was my first low water experiences at that time. During ’53 and ’54 on the river? But the, that swim was a very good education because I really, at times, was sure I’d never make it through. Because that was the way it went ‘cause so many things happened that you have to read my book in order to really get the full impact ‘cause I talk quite a bit about it in there. But it came in good the rest of my life, these swims came in handy, booth in a booth and later UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 8 exploratory trips and everything because it taught me so much about really wild rivers and there would be no way of knowing otherwise. Right. And then of course on the first trip remember I had never read a book or a thing. There was only the first books of Powell and he’d only been down twice and he had tried to map it and all but he didn’t know too much about the water. Powell. Mm-hm. Powell was the first one in history that recorded it now, he was not the first man to run it. Right. But in history he did record it and, but he’d only been down twice. But I learned later, with so many of the water being such different levels that twice was just a laugh because you didn’t know anything. When I went down twice I could figure that I just still knew nothing about the river. Mm-hm. Because you couldn’t even remember or find where you were at hardly unless you didn’t like him, map it or something. Because it was, this chain so tremendous. That’s when I learned to look real high at, you know, at the high peaks. Right. And things where the water couldn’t reach, to have any idea where I was. But he was the first one then to go down and map the Colorado River? To actually try to, yes, to try to map and record (unintelligible) How did he go down it? He’d do it by land or by—? UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 9 No. he went down by boat and he had a boat and then they lost some and of course that book of Powell is one that many people have read in the early, early day. And then there wasn’t too many after that, that really recorded things and whatever they put down you had to believe there was no one else, you know, only such a few went down. Right. Did like myself when I went there only a few adventurers now and then that went but you just never seen anybody. Right. And but that first river experience is quite a deal and when we come out at Paris’s Ferry and getting out was the really tough part because again we had the driftwood and Paul had held still because it was right at the head yet you couldn’t swim, it was so hard to try to get through it swimming because it was completely closed in and if you try to get out, you had such a long walk on shore to try to walk around to get out of the Paris’s. So the very last part was really mean then at that time you didn’t have that regular rule that you have down at Paris’s. You had some ranches up there and this is sort of a trail light and we actually hiked out to the highway and caught a ride on the bus from the bus stop to come back into Boulder where we left our clothes the first time. At Boulder City? Yes. Mm-hm. And then we went back the second year and swam further on the river and then this time, then some news people had got wind of it, from Las Vegas—and so, they came up as far as they could, which was the bottom of the driftwood. So— UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 10 This was on your original—? Second trip. What year was this? This was on the ’46 one. 1946. We went ’45 and ’46. We went two years. Mm-hm. And in ’46, then they were at the bottom, and ’46 went somewhat better because we knew more about it. But yet my partner almost drowned because in a whirlpool he got water and started to choke. Mm. And then it was just sort of fate that we got through outside and it wasn’t quite as rough because if he’d had taken anymore water there, he would have been through, because that’s the way it was. So, he said to me, “Don’t you ever mention swimming again!” (Laughs) “This is it, forever!” (Laughs) Not going to do that again, huh? Yes, forevermore. So I said, “I won’t.” Because I realized I’d be responsible if I talked him into it and then he drowned. Right. ‘Cause somehow even though I don’t claim to be that good a swimmer or anything I just seem to have a charmed life. I am definitely a fatalist. Mm-hm. UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 11 And many, many things in life, I’ve been in many accidents and somehow I just am the one that always-- Always comes out in one piece. Just don’t get hurt. Yes, I just don’t get hurt. I’ve been in car accidents and I was with my daughter on a bicycle, we both rode racer bikes. She was on the inside, I protected her. We both got hit and I got a terrific jar but it didn’t even really hurt, my back felt stiff, but the doctor had checked it and said, “No, just from the blow.” Right. And it killed her ‘cause she went back. So it’s one of those things that all my life you have to be a fatalist if you lived my life because somehow I just wanna lose it. (Laughs) Hm. Comes through everything, you know, and I’ve had a lot of things happen, but, ‘cause in Colorado and all I was always curious when I was young but just had that luck that goes with it. Right. Or fatalist if you want to call it. Let’s see, you said there were some newsmen who came out in ’46 (unintelligible) and got wind of it. They came up—they came up from Vegas. Mm-hm. And it was in the newspaper here. What page if you can remember? If you can look back. Do you remember what papers they were in? UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 12 No. I have it at home. But anyhow, there’s only two here, so you could look at easy enough. I see, it’s the same two papers then? Yes. It was way back. The Las Vegas Sun and the Review Journal even back in the forties? Mm-hm. It was one of them clear back, I think the Sun was clear back, so it could possibly look back. It was long ways back and they have it ‘cause they were, came up, you know. Mm-hm. And had this boat that was bonded with driftwood ‘cause we come up at that time and then we had to ride back in. They wrote an article on it but it was a first time that that was in Vegas. Oh, Vegas was much different then because of course it was, you know, really small and— What was here back, then? Well, Downtown was your main part then you didn’t have what you call the Strip now at all. Right. In no way did you have the Strip. What was Downtown? You did have the Showboat. It was small at the time and then we started staying at the Showboat. This was in the forties? Mm-hm. Clear back, we started staying at the Showboat, ’47, ah, ’46, ’47. You had the main small Downtown areas. Mm-hm. But you didn’t have anything like now because see gambling wasn’t that popular to the travel. ‘Cause you still had your narrow roads too because you had two lane in a lot of places yet then. Two-lane highway. UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 13 Yes. Mm-hm. Coming in and out of Vegas. Oh yes and that made a big difference too because then you didn’t have your roads like you have now. Suppose cars then too would be overheating and things like that a lot more. Oh yes. Because they didn’t have the grade, they had, the grade was a lot more out from Death Valley before they changed that highway and graded it. It’s so much different now because it used to really be something. The 15 you mean? Oh yes. You mean Henderson, yes? Oh, that used to be something going into California. What was that like? Well, you know, because it was so steep. Uh-huh. See, when they changed the highway, why they worked that grade and changed it so that it’s not near like it was at that time. Mm-hm. But I think that probably—because then of course it, you just didn’t have it like now. You’d never dream of thinking that Vegas would be like it is today. (Laughs) Back then it was desert, huh? ‘Cause I always begin the end of the trips there when I used to try to get people. Then for years of course I didn’t get people to go because River Run wasn’t the thing and people weren’t UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 14 interested. They would look at the pictures—I took pictures in the very beginning somehow. I got a movie camera from a president. From a fellow who went with me and said, “You just got to get your (unintelligible) you’ll never get anybody.” And then I wrote a small book for ten years. Mm-hm. In there about, oh, it was about seven and a half foot wide and probably about fourteen foot long. They were the first ten man boots from the Navy; didn’t mean you could have ten men in them but they just called ‘em that for some reason. Right. And they were heavy new (unintelligible) they weighed about 360 pounds. Probably that’s what the Navy puts on their boats or something, you know, (unintelligible) down. (Laughs) Well, they—oh, these boats were something, they used them for frogmen. Hm. Out in the ocean, again the big boots and these were the toughest boots that were ever made and they’re still far tougher than anything you can get today. There’s nothing that you can get today that can even get a start to them. Mm-hm. Those were the toughest boots that ever existed. So when I started then after the two swims and I put these on in Colorado I had already went in winter time, up on the cataract ‘cause when I went in the cataract then I went in the winter, which was a freezing trip and found that, that was not the time to go, in November, there’s no way, ‘cause it was just too cool. How about water? Was there much water in it? UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 15 And the water was slow, no. The water was practically gone. It was real, you know, you get your, then nobody knew about anything and you really got your education on everything yourself. This is still back before they put the dams in or anything like that. Oh yes, uh-huh. And, so then it was entirely different. Mm-hm. So they, it was really oh so much different, and every trip you took down on the Colorado originally, when you went in different months, or tried to go at first, every trip was so different, that it, course that was what I liked about it because I had always been real restless and tired of anything real quick. And I know I had been on the Colorado River running, rowing, my brother said, “Oh, I think, maybe I’d better go with you, before you get tired and do something else.” And I said, “No, I’m not, I’m always gonna be on the Colorado because I found what I wanted.” [Says] “Oh, I sees you get tired of everything.” And I says, “Not this time.” Yes. A high rate of burnout. Because I said, “This changes so much, you never know it.” Mm-hm. I said, “When I go every year, it’s like I’d never been there.” And so then I would work, I used to sell real estate and different type way down in California there and then I was in California and then I come up here. But I was really on the river for six months and through Las Vegas. It always started in Las Vegas. Mm-hm. And but always end with on the river for six months. You were kind of an unofficial resident of the area. UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 16 So, so then I didn’t really, and still don’t really live any place yet except the river because I spend more time on the river than any place. In any single land. So I always say rather cynically (Laughs) well the Grand Canyon is my home. (Laughs) That’s right. In a way because I spend more time there. You come out to Vegas you’re here on the weekend then of course now I have the warehouse here. But still I spend so much time in the Grand Canyon that— What is this warehouse? What is that? Well, we have boats and all. I have that here now. Oh, where you keep the boats to do your—? Have for a long time, since ‘69 Do your route? We would do the trips now. Yes, you have the warehouse here now since ’69. But before that then I had boats but I had ‘em just oh, just a little of every place, you know. Where ever you can find a place to store ‘em. (Laughs) Well, then people didn’t steal things. Right. And not having that much money to pay for warehouses and all I just had ‘em at different places up and down the line to be picked up. Mm-hm. ‘Cause then it was kind of nice though because people didn’t steal anything. You could leave anything. There wasn’t vandalism and boy you wouldn’t dare leave it (Laughs) UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 17 Anything in the river, today. Leave a boat like that in any place now and it’s, I’m glad that I had the day when, you know, one would hope to see it again. Because I feel sad for like yourself that you won’t know the day when really, you could put anything down that isn’t bothered. Mm. ‘Cause that part was so nice that you could leave things different places and nothing was bothered. The same on the Colorado River originally of course. Nobody, only a few adventurers went there and anybody would never dream even if you ever came on anything you would be very careful if it looked like it was new at all, not to touch it. Mm-hm. But then it was real good because the, being the explorer on the Colorado and all these different levels of water, my main interest had been to, I always liked to try to read all the old mine books I could ‘cause I liked old mines a lot and there were different old mines on the river. Mm. And so then there had been some old time books like “(Unintelligible) Goldmine.” Mm-hm. And it’s in a library and it was banned from Utah because it had been for leave when they had considered him a black sheep and then of course after they made it a park up at Lee’s Ferry, somehow the church accepted Lee back into the church. (Laughs) And so— Became famous though. So no, I probably (unintelligible) UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 18 Now you’re one of them again. Yes. But this (Unintelligible) Goldmine is very good and that’s from going in to (unintelligible) and supposedly he had a goldmine in the Grand Canyon. Mm-hm. And I was always sort of looking for this mine. (Laughs) (Laughs) To this day and this lost mine. I hiked many canyons. Uh-huh. I had a lot of time because I didn’t have many customers through the years. Mm-hm. I didn’t get anybody and I didn’t even break even neither because—I didn’t get enough because I wanted to spend as much time there, that I supported the river by working in the winter and then staying up there summer and just sort of eating beans all summer. Mm-hm. And—but I sure had a good life ‘cause I got to explore all these canyons. So I, and unfortunately though I’m not the type that likes to write anything down. Right. Strictly physical that I like to check things out and I just never thought at such thing as being bothered to write anything down. Mm-hm. And still don’t to this day for that matter. Well, later on, people came along and— ‘Cause I’m strictly not a historian. UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 19 Yes. I just went, you know, to go. Mm-hm. And I’m still that way. I just, even yet I don’t like to write anything. Well, like I said— I was— People showed up a little later, you’re sitting here with two books on you. Yes. Mm-hm. But my sister wrote the one book. Uh-huh. And then I told the gentleman who helped write that book and we worked it out together. This was the second book? Yes, he went on the river with me. Uh-huh. And then I would tell him and we would talk. Let me mention these books here so somebody listening to this tape would know what we’re talking about here. ‘Kay. This was the first book, right? Yes. That was done on you? My sister wrote, “The Woman of the River.” Because she felt that there should be something in writing just in case anything happened to me. (Laughs) Mm. UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 20 That was correct because no one knew the Colorado at all and, or even taken people down and she, that’s the second series, she had two. It went so well. Mm-hm. Even though she completely wrote it and published it. Got—they won (unintelligible) and paid for it that she run the second edition and it’s still, people dislike it because it is so original. And this came out originally in 1958? Yes. Mm-hm. It’s copyrighted, right, be Rosemarie Durant. Yes. My sister. Was TV’s Woman of the River series (unintelligible)? Well, I have been on TV a lot ‘cause I have so much film and originally they had never seen anything like this, so it was some of the original film was not that good but they managed to get it on TV. So I have always been on TV, oh, since way back. Mm-hm. Because they took travel logs at first. I’ve been on any number of TV and magazines, both actually. Because of course originally, this, it was news, you know, it was so different and everything. Mm-hm. And they gave me the name, “Woman of the River.” Because at the time they had this one program and it was on a Jack Douglas show and he said let’s see, he said, “Should we make it, Queen of the River, Woman of the River? And I said, “Oh, I never liked that Queen of the River idea, that’s for something dignified and I don’t like even the sound of it.” (Laughs) (Laughs) UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 21 So I said, “Let’s just make it Woman of the River.” (Laughs) But it stuck. And so—and so, then that was a lot better because then it was more, I don’t know it fits the river better. Mm-hm. Somehow to me, a thing like the river, this doesn’t have any queens. (Laughs) Right. ‘Cause it’s too rugged, you know. The river can be called a woman but not really the queen. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, it’s too rugged but not the queen. Yes, it’s too rugged. ‘Cause what about this second book here? Well, that’s just a— Lemme mention the name here, real quick. It says, “Georgie Clark, thirty years a river runner.” And it’s, when was this one done? That was—that’s just a couple of years or three old, let’s see it’s only three, four years, and this one includes, also Little Mexico, because I explored many rivers besides Colorado. Mm-hm. And this includes Mexico and before the dam. Most of these rivers were before the dam that I tried to write about. Mm-hm. And then I was up in Alaska for three years before it become a state and went on rivers, and, because they didn’t like becoming a state. It was when the Army went in and then got a lot of votes. Because the Army personnel lived there and the people who originally went up there UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 22 wanted to remain to the primitive side and they didn’t care about becoming a state but it happened anyway. That’s why they went to Alaska. But it happened anyhow. Yes. So they were pretty unhappy, ‘cause I was up there running the river at the time and they were very unhappy about the fact of it becoming a state. Mm-hm. And so that I’ve had all explored touring the Northwest Territory and Canada on the Frazier, and then went down to South America a little. I didn’t care for it but like Mexico and Guatemala don’t have many rivers or pretty smooth they have quite a few Indian runs and quite a few that are not dug yet really. Mm-hm. But for the river part, the river wasn’t so exciting. Right. The Colorado’s been— I went down the (unintelligible) and it was pretty flat. It was all right for one trip but it’s not one I’d repeat. Right. I have lots of, I’ve tunneled lots of rivers in there but I would not repeat ‘em. Mm-hm. And some detail on, a little bit on Alaska, I like the copper better than the others, so we talked more about the copper because some of the others again I didn’t think were that, they were, as I UNLV University Libraries Georgie Clark 23 said, good for one trip but not, none of them had the rapids the Grand Canyon has in the Colorado. Mm-hm. And even in the old day it has its tremendous rapids. It, now no one will ever no what big water mains— You were talking about that it used to get up to like a hundred and twenty-five. Twenty-five in the part of the thing is so enormous that you repaired a lot of boats because you just didn’t have control because there’s so many times you couldn’t row, you couldn’t run a motor, you couldn’t do anything. I actually, I rode single boats. But hang on. I run single boats for ten years then I learned to tie them together, which is still known as a G-ring and one set of my boat is in the museum at the south rim. One boat that I origin