Transcript of interview with Natalie Wolf by Barbara Tabach, October 22, 2016

i AN INTERVIEW WITH NATALIE WOLF An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ?Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV ? University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader?s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas iv PREFACE Las Vegas has been home to Natalie Wolf since 1971. Smitten by the weather and scenery, Natalie knew it was the perfect destination for her. Unwillingly to move without a job, Natalie and her husband Ron were receptive to her sister Rita Park?s suggestion that the couple join her in the management of the Greyhound Bus Station. The Wolfs soon packed the car, loaded up their sons and drove across country from New York City. They would operate the Greyhound franchise until 1979. Natalie was born and raised Jewish in New York City. She met her husband Rowland (Ron), also a New York native, on a blind date. They married in 1959 and settled into raising a family. Two of their three sons, Mitch, Kelly and Jamie, were also born in New York. They were ages 6 and 3 when the family moved to their new home on the desert. During this interview, Natalie shares stories of operating the bus station, a brief ownership of Commercial Deli (1987-1990), and her long career working collections for the casino industry. Her first position was at the Tropicana Hotel and has worked for MGM Properties, a loyal employee at the Mirage since 1990, starting a few weeks after the casino opened. v TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Natalie Wolf On October 22, 2016 by Barbara Tabach in Las Vegas, Nevada Preface?????????????????????????????????..?..iv Describes growing up Jewish in New York City; grandparents were immigrants from Russia and Austria; explains maiden name was Toback/Tabak. Tells about meeting Rowland (Ron) Wolf on a blind date and marrying in 1959 ???????????????????????.1 ? 5 Talks about decision to move to Las Vegas, February 1971; fell in love with the weather and the desert during a vacation; had family living in Las Vegas: Uncle Jerry Osgood owned Bar Mitzvah Ranch and was ma?tre-d? at Stardust; her younger sister Rita Parks and husband managed the Greyhound bus station next to the Stardust Hotel; first home on Hacienda; two sons were age 9 and 3??????????????????????????????????..6 ? 9 Talks about the Greyhound bus station; full-service station with a sandwich shop, lockers etc.; open 7 days a week. Anecdotes from the station and using Stardust Hotel security?.??10 ? 12 Describes Las Vegas of 1971, where she shopped, holidays and son was only Jew in his class; attending Hebrew school; belonging to Temple Beth Sholom; working full-time as a medical transcriber; cooking for Passover Seder; Rabbi Mel Hecht and Temple Beth Am; ???.13 ? 17 Tells about separating from bus station in 1979; taking her first casino job at the Tropicana Hotel; being at the mercy of pit bosses and sexual harassment of the era; learning the casino business and its uniqueness; stories about being a big winner on a junket and the losers??????..18 ? 20 Talks about opening up Commercial Deli in Commercial Center near Vegas Village in 1987; husband and she quit jobs to run it with her mother; good food but business failed; husband went back to work for cab company and she went to work at Mirage a few weeks after it opened in 1990. vi Describes Mirage when it first opened; staff meeting with Steve Wynn; changes that occurred with merger of MGM properties.????????????????????????....21 ? 25 Describes her work as a collections agent for the casinos; son?s prom story and how it differed in Las Vegas from other places; what the family did for entertainment; musical talent in the family; not moving to green Valley or Summerlin as city expanded; big fans of UNLV sports??.27 ? 31 More about Bar Mitzvah Ranch; names of people she thinks of having helped grow the city; never looking back at leaving New York. How people shipped in kosher foods and picked up at Greyhound station; more access to kosher foods today??????????????..32 ? 39 Index.............................................................................................................................................40 Appendix: Illustrate Bar Mitzvah Ranch; bar mitzvah announcements, BBYO convention??41 ? 45 vii 1 Today is October 22nd, 2016. I am sitting in the home of Natalie Wolf. This is Barbara Tabach. Natalie, tell me a little bit about your upbringing. How Jewish were you when you were a kid? On and off. We did the basic holidays. We lived in a mixed area. We started out in Brooklyn, New York; that was a totally mixed area. We had everything in our neighborhood; we had Catholics; we had Jews; we had a number of Hasidic Jews in our area that were starting to come into my area in Brooklyn; we had many, many people who would come over from Puerto Rico at that time; it really was a mixed neighborhood. We moved out to, when I was fourteen, a suburb of New York City called Long Island; and, again, it was a mixed area. My dad right away joined the temple; it was called Marathon Jewish Center. We did get involved in some of the things there. We did do some of the activities with the temple, not totally into it. But we did celebrate all of the holidays and it was definitely part of our lives. Did you have a bat mitzvah? I did not. Did girls have bat mitzvahs back then? None of my friends had a bat mitzvah. I cannot remember going to any at all. We did have some religious studies at the temple. But as far as a bat mitzvah, no, we never did do that. Was keeping kosher part of the family? Kosher was not part of my family. Both of my grandmothers were alive and well at that point in time, but neither one of them kept a kosher home. How did your family come to settle in New York City? 2 Both sides of my family are from the other part of the world. My maternal grandparents were from Russia. They came over when they were very young. My paternal grandparents were from Austria. From what my father told me, they come over as young marrieds and had their children here. What brought them here, I don't have any knowledge of that. I would say as most people of that time, they were looking for a better life and they found it here. My maternal grandfather, my mom's dad, owned a gas station. My paternal grandfather was a tailor. The grandmas were stay-at-home housewives. Were you close with them? Extremely close, very close with them. Grandparent memories can be so touching. You hold on to them. Yes, you hold on to them and they're great memories. I miss my grandparents to this day, believe it or not. Gone lo these many years and I still miss them. I have great memories of them?especially my mom?s mom, Grandma Katie. Your maiden name was Toback. My maiden name was Toback, yes. Which is close to my last name, which is interesting. Actually, it did not start out at Toback, Barbara. I was just going to ask that. When my grandfather came over from Austria, everybody came through Ellis Island and they had clerks here at Ellis Island and you told them your last name and they put down what it sounded like. The name was Tabak, T-A-B-A-K. Even closer to our name. Yes. And whoever was writing down the name that's what it sounded like. So it became 3 Toback. Wow. So growing up in New York City, how would you describe that memory? Growing up was great. It was great. As I said, it was a very mixed neighborhood. We had everybody there. I had friends of every nationality. It was great. It was a natural, normal, happy childhood. We moved to Long Island when I was just fourteen. I went to high school, had great memories of that. I had very happy high school years. Discovered boys, yes. Did a lot of the dating scene. It was just a happy, happy childhood. How did you meet your husband? His name was Rowland. Rowland, yes. We called him Ron. We were set up on a blind date by friends of ours who were dating at the time and they thought we would go well together. We went out on a date that night. He took me to a jazz club. I hate jazz. Then he took me to a pizza place. I don't eat pizza. But we were a foursome. So we had a good time. When we got home I said to my friend Joan, "I don't think I want to date him again." And he told his friend, "I'm going to marry her." So there you go. So he knew right away. Oh, he knew right away. He knew right away. He was very attractive and I really did like him, but I didn't see anything in the future. We had totally different tastes in everything. How did he wear you down? He wore me down in a number of ways. First he would call me and we'd go out and then I wouldn't hear from him for two or three weeks. And I was going, "Why doesn't he call me?" And then he'd call me two or three weeks in a row. I couldn't figure it out and I was attracted to that. It went on from there. And finally I realized this is the guy; this is the guy. He wanted to get married. He wanted a family. And I went, yeah. He was a good Jewish boy. He worked. 4 He was from Brooklyn or Long Island? He was from the Bronx, one of the other boroughs in New York. New York had five areas called boroughs. He was from the Bronx. So he drove from the Bronx to Long Island where I was, a pretty long drive. I knew at that point in time, yes, this was it. Were you both in school or working? No, we were both working. What kind of work was he in? Let's see. What was he doing at that time? Oh, we had been dating just for a number of months and then he enlisted in the National Guard. So he was away for a while. He was in Fort Knox, Kentucky. We corresponded. I was doing clerical work at that time for an electronics company. We knew when he came home that this was it; we were going to get engaged; we were going to get married. That separation was really what drew us together. The separation pushed us together. You kind of knew then. Really, really. Sometimes you have to be apart in order to know that you have to be together. You do. And that did it. That did it. So you got married in 1959. Yes, we did. And you said you had a Jewish ceremony. Oh, absolutely. We had two rabbis. I'm trying to remember the temple that we belonged to, why we were not married there. I cannot recall. We married at another Jewish center and we were married by the rabbi from that temple and the rabbi by our temple. So we had the two rabbis 5 there. It was a conservative ceremony, beautiful, as all Jewish wedding ceremonies are, the whole big thing, six ushers, four bridesmaids, the whole schmear. What kind of reception did you have? It was right there in the temple in the big, big ballroom, beautiful ceremony, beautiful reception, the way a Jewish wedding should be. Complete with the chuppah and all of that? Oh, we had a gorgeous chuppah, full of flowers. More food than...You really could have fed the Sixth Fleet with the food that was there. A lot of food, a lot of booze. Wonderfully done. Sounds like fun. It was. It was great. So you're settled in to New York City. What kind of work were you in at that time when you got married? I was doing part-time work. I was a mother then. I had my two oldest sons. My youngest son, Jamie, was born out here in '74. Mitch was born in 1962. Kelly was born in 1968. That was after you got married. Yes, yes. But before you got married what kind of work were you doing? I was doing clerical work. And Ron at that point in time went to work for my father; he became his office manager. At the gas station? No, no. My father was in the institutional supply business. He supplied cleaning supplies and equipment mostly to Catholic institutions?churches, convents; that kind of thing?cleaning supplies, all kind of equipment. Ron went to work for him and his partner as his office manager. 6 I would work for him part-time, work for my dad part-time doing billing or whatever he needed, even when I had my children. If he needed some work done at home, I did that. You had two of your three sons in New York. Right. Mitch and Kelly were born in New York City. So what year did you come to Las Vegas? 1971 we moved out here. Now I need to know the story about what brought you here. The story is that I told my husband, "If we don't move out of New York City, I'm going to die." I could not handle the weather there anymore. I could not take the winters anymore, Barbara. I was sick; my kids sick every winter all winter long. And it got to the point where I said, "Ron, if you don't move me out of here, you're going to be raising these boys alone because I can't handle it anymore." He said, "Where do you want to move to?" And I said, "Las Vegas." And he said, "Okay." We had come out here on vacation. I knew the first time I saw it. I think I got off the plane and I looked around and I knew in my heart this was where I was going to move; this is where I was going to live; this is where I was going to raise my family. Really? Really. What about it resonated with you somehow? Everything. Everything. The sunshine. I looked around and I saw the mountains that surrounded this valley and it was like, wow, I don't see any of this in New York. This is beautiful. The desert, everything. It wasn't the casinos or anything like that. It still is not really part of my 7 world. I work in a casino. I work for a casino corporation. Gambling is not part of my life. It's part of my work life. It's not part of my outside life. I just fell in love with everything in this city. Ron must have felt the same way because when I said, "I want to move to Las Vegas," he was like, "Okay." But that Bar Mitzvah Ranch that you asked me about that my uncle [Jerry Osgood] owned? He came out here in 1958 to help open the Stardust Hotel. So you had a relative here. My uncle lived here, yes. Clarifying for the transcript, I had asked you prior to our sitting down if you had ever heard of the Bar Mitzvah Ranch because I just heard about it in an interview yesterday. Right, right. Your uncle owned it. Yes, he owned it. What was his name? Jerry Osgood. He was my mother's youngest brother. So what had brought him here? He had been in the hospitality business for a number of years. Matter of fact, when I was seventeen he went to work at a hotel up in New Hampshire as the ma?tre d' in the dining room and I went along when I was seventeen and in high school. I was the children's counselor for the summer. Then the Stardust Hotel was opening. I don't know where the connection came in, how he heard about it, but he came out here to help open it. He was a captain in the showroom. What was the name of the show? I don't even remember it. The revue escapes my memory. He eventually became the ma?tre d'. He was the youngest ma?tre d' on the Strip. 8 When I knew this was where I wanted to be, I was in touch with him. He and I both agreed you cannot come out here cold. You've got to have some kind of a something to come to because if you don't, it's tough to establish yourself, to get a foot in here to find something. Vegas will knock you down if you don't have something. So Ron and I both knew we had to wait until something came along to move our family. We had two children. You can't come out here and...We talked about Ron going to dealer's school and me working. That wasn't going to happen. You had to come out here and know that you were going to be able to pay your rent and feed your kids. I had a younger sister who passed away in 1981. She came out here a couple of years earlier. At that point in time?and I have a picture of it?there was a Greyhound station next to the Stardust Hotel. It was a commission station. She met her husband out here and they became the agents for that Greyhound bus station. She called me early in 1971 and she said, "Nat, this bus station is so busy, I can't handle it myself." And I went, bam, that's it. In February of 1971, Ron and I came out here for four days, got on a plane, came out here, stayed at the Aladdin, bought half of the bus station, bought a house, went back to New York and started packing, and on June 20th of 1971 we said, "Goodbye New York; see you; Las Vegas, here I come." Wow. So did you load up a car or what did you do? We sold most of our furniture. We didn't have a house. We had a three-bedroom apartment. We sold most of our stuff. I think we came out with a couple of television sets and a bicycle and some tchotchkes, odds and ends, and that was it. That was it. We loaded up the moving van, sent them on their way, got into the car, crossed over the George Washington Bridge and never looked back. 9 Amazing. And two little kids in tow. Yes. Mitch was almost nine; Kelly almost three. Yes, it was as fast as that. It was as fast as that. We came home after four days here, started packing, put an ad in the paper, started selling everything off. We had bought the house here. We were ready. So the house that we're sitting in is the house that you bought then? No. No, no. This is my third house. Where was your first house? Our first house was on Hacienda Avenue, between Maryland and Eastern. My sister, actually she and I were back to back. She had bought the house and the home that we bought was used as kind of a second model home. It was empty, just carpeted. But it was used as a second model home and was available for sale. We bought it, signed the papers, put a deposit down, and we were ready to go. We went home and, as I said, started packing. Couldn't wait to get out here. What was your sister's name? Rita, R-I-T-A, Rita. She passed way in 1981. Was she married? She was married, yes, but she didn't have any children. What was her last name? Parks, P-A-R-K-S. So the Greyhound bus station that sounds fascinating just to be around. Anybody who's ever sat in a bus station knows what a colorful cast of characters come and go through those. Oh, my goodness, yes. 10 So let's sort of set the scene. The bus station was located where again? It was right next to the Stardust Hotel. If you were standing and facing the Stardust Hotel, it was in a small building right on the left side. Oh, really? Okay. With a parking lot in the back and a small one in the front. It was a full-service bus station. We sold bus tickets. We had package express. You could ship and get packages there all the time. There was a little sandwich shop, a little...What's the word I'm looking for, Barbara? Deli? No. A little snack bar kind of a thing right on the other side of the building. We had lockers. You could store your belongings. All the buses that were coming in or leaving Vegas coming from or going to the big station downtown stopped at the Stardust Greyhound Station. It was a busy, busy place. It was not twenty-four seven. We were open seven days, but we closed after the last bus left at night. It was a busy station, very busy. What did bus tickets cost back then? Let me think back just a second, Barbara. Okay, now, here's a memory. I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, but I can tell you we used to sell a round-trip ticket to Los Angeles. If you could make the trip from Las Vegas to Los Angeles and be back within three days, the ticket was $14.85. Somehow that number sticks in my mind. A three-day round-trip ticket was $14.85. Pretty amazing. We had some buses called an Express that made one stop in Barstow and then we had the locals that made all of the stops. It was a very busy, very busy station. Yes, we had some really colorful characters, people come through there. Tell me what a typical day at the bus station might have been like. We had people who would fly in from cross country on a big jet and go back home on a bus 11 because?yes, this is Vegas; you come in with your money and it's gone. We had our share of drunks. But the Stardust Hotel was right there. All we needed to do was call security and they were right there. Oh, so their security would take care of you guys. Absolutely, their security people took care of us, too. That was convenient. It was. It was very nice to have them there. We really did have a lot of strange characters come through. In a day you really ran the gamut. We had people who could well afford to take a plane and did not like to fly. They bought a bus ticket. Well dressed, nice people, didn't like to fly. Got on a bus and loved it. Loved it. Four days cross country. "Wonderful, I love it; give me a ticket." Were there any scary times? Yes. I remember one scary time. A man staggered into the bus station covered in blood, just covered in blood, staggered and stumbled in. He had been attacked just outside. I believe it was between the hotel and the bus station itself. Somebody had attacked him and robbed him. Immediately we called security and they came right in and took him away. But that was a scary sight having him come in like that. But it didn't happen too often. Mainly we had travelers who just wanted to get where they needed to go for one reason or another; liked the bus; needed to take the bus. It was great. It was a great eight years. We had it from 1971 to 1979. Now, as I said, it was a commission station, which means every ticket that we sold, every package that we handled, we made a commission on from the Greyhound Company itself. Then in 1979, the company decided to take it back and make a company station out of it. So Ron and I were both 12 out of a job. So you owned the business, the operation part of it. Right, the operating part of it. But not the land or the building or any of that. No, no. Just the operation of the bus station on a daily basis itself. They took it back and made a company station out of it. Bus travel was pretty common, I guess, back then. That was a good alternative way for people to get around. Absolutely. Some people just did not like to fly, could not afford to fly, and they just loved the bus. Going from here to L.A. it wasn't that bad; it was like a four-, four-and-a-half-hour run especially if you were on the Express. We saw the same people time and time again. They loved it, loved it. So you were open seven days a week. Were you working seven days a week yourself? Well, my sister and her husband worked it some of the days and then we had?actually we called UNLV. I think we called the student union. I don't remember. I said, "Do you have a student who would like to work part-time at a bus station? We've got an opening." They must have posted it somewhere. We had a number of kids call. They wanted to work for us. We had a lovely guy work for us for quite a while. We worked around his schedule, around his classes. He was great. He was with us for quite a while until, I think, he graduated, which was what we wanted. But he was great. If we could give an opportunity to a student at the university, absolutely because by that time Ron and I were both Runnin' Rebel fans. So if we could help a Rebel out, we were there. 13 Describe Vegas of the 1970s. What was the city like as you recall it? Let me see. 1971. Okay, let me put you on to Tropicana Avenue. You're heading west on Tropicana. You cross over I-15 and that's it. There's nothing there but sand dunes, nothing. There was nothing past there. The west side from what I remember on most east-west streets was hardly developed. I know when we moved into this house in '78, the four corners right here on Eastern and Tropicana, it was nothing, nothing. I think maybe the McDonalds was there; that's it. Other than that there was nothing there. There was no shopping centers. Now there's a medical center. There's...I think it's an assisted living place. Barbara, there was nothing. It was four corners of desert; that was it. So that's what you encountered most. Vegas in the seventies was pieces of desert; that was it, big plots and lots and just desert. So I have watched the growth in this city and still to this day it amazes me how it has grown. It takes your breath away, doesn't it? It was a small town. I had to go grocery shopping down where the airport is now, over on Tropicana down near Spencer. There was a Mayfair Market; that's where I had to go to do my grocery shopping. There was nothing closer. Then Maryland Square opened up over here with a...I don't even remember the name of the grocery store. But you did not have a lot of shopping opportunities as far as grocery stores. Mall-wise there was nothing but the Boulevard; that was it. That was the big shopping area, the Boulevard Mall. So that was pretty much it. You had little stores opening here and there, little strip malls. But it's a thousand percent different growth-wise, shopping-wise. How about schools? So Mitch was nine. Mitch was nine. Mitch started the fourth grade here. What school did he go to? 14 Oh, Barbara, I can't tell you. I don't remember. I really don't. It was a public school near here. I'll tell you a story. The first year we were here?because we arrived in June and, of course, Mitch started school in the fourth grade. Then the holiday time came, Christmastime came. That's all the kids were hearing about in school was Christmas, Christmas and Christmas. It turns out Mitch was definitely the only Jewish little boy in his class, very possibly in the entire fourth grade. So Ron and I looked at each other and went, "Uh, no, I don't think so." We made arrangements with his teacher and I went up to his classroom with a little brass menorah that I had with candles and a little booklet, just a little bit about the story of Hanukkah and what it meant. I talked to the kids in the classroom. They were fascinated. "Huh? What? What is that?" I wasn't going to let that go by. That's wonderful. I remember going into a store that first year, Barbara. I want to say the name of the store was Zodie's, kind of like a little Target, K-Mart or whatever. I went to the greeting card department looking for some Hanukkah cards. Racks and racks of Christmas cards. There was a young fellow there, a clerk, and I went up to him and I said to him, "Do you have any Hanukkah cards?" It was like you could hear an audible click; his mind turned off and his eyes kind of glazed over. You would have thought I asked him to sell me a round-trip ticket to Mars. When the light went on again, he went, "Huh?" I said, "A Hanukkah card. Do you know what Hanukkah is?" "No." And I went, "Okay, I think we're done here." That's what I encountered. Did you meet Jewish people here when you first moved here? Very, very few. One little story I have, which was a surprise and a very nice one, there was another housing development that went up across the street from us on Hacienda Avenue. Mitch was just starting Hebrew school. One of the homes was sold to a family, side-by-side homes, 15 two sisters-in-law, and they each had boys Mitch's age. They'd come over to play. I remember one day, early?Mitch had just started to play with the two boys?I said, "Mitch, you've got to say goodbye to the friends; we've got to get ready to go to Hebrew school." And the two little boys, Stephen and Mark, said, "Oh, we've got to go, too, to Hebrew school." What? What? And I immediately ran across the street, made nice with their mothers, and we formed car pools. How sweet it was. Oh, how cool. Yes, yes. And he was friends with these little boys for a long time. So how did you find the synagogue? Which synagogue were you? There was only one synagogue in town. It was Temple Beth Sholom or it was nothing. That was it. I think now there are?what was last count, twenty-one or twenty-two? Oh, well over twenty some. it could be close to thirty depending upon how you look at it. Yes. It was Temple Beth Sholom on East Oakey. It was a conservative temple and that was it. If you were looking for reformed, it wasn't going to happen. If you were looking for an orthodox...If you needed, God forbid, a mikveh, you were out of luck. That was it. That's where both Mitch and Kelly were bar mitzvah-ed from, Temple Beth Sholom. It was close; it was near. That's where it happened. But that was it. Now, were you personally involved in Sisterhood or anything at Temple Beth Sholom? No. I was working full-time. At that point in time?it was 1974?I was working at the bus station. I was taking a class at Sunrise Hospital to become a medical transcriber. I had the two boys, working, and I got pregnant with Jamie. So I really didn't have a whole lot of spare time. As much as I would have liked to, I didn't have it. Again, I really would have liked to, but I just couldn't work it in. But we were always involved. My sons have always been and to this day are 16 very proud Jews. They know what they are. It's part of their heritage. It's part of their life. How did you demonstrate to them as they were growing up? Were you ever self-aware or is it just something that existed in your home? It was here. It was always here. The holidays were celebrated. They were Jews from the minute they were born. Eight days later when they had their bris, they were Jews. It was important to their father. It was important to me. It was important to their grandfather, because my parents were out here at the time. It was very important. Judaism was a part of our lives, always was. The holidays were celebrated, Passover, Hanukkah. We did get to the temple when we could. Yes, we were one of those Jews. Yes, we were there on the holidays. You do what you can, Barbara. A little bit is better than nothing. But we were Jews in our heart, in our soul. We knew what we were and we celebrated it. It was part of what we were. Did you host the Passover dinner and all of that? Oh, I did. Oh, of course. Cook all day long. I did what I could. I did; I cooked, yes. Matter of fact, last year I celebrated Passover at Mitch's house in Oklahoma and I made the dinner. We did the Seder, the whole thing. The boys had their first understanding of what it was with the Seder plate and everything, absolutely. And the boys you're referring to are your grandsons there. Absolutely, the twins, Mitch's two boys [Dylan and Gavin], yes, absolutely. They loved it. Somehow they instinctively knew that this is part of what they were. I don't know how that happens, but they instinctively knew it. They took to that whole Seder-Passover thing like it was something that they did all the time. They just embraced it, I guess. I don't know how else to put it. They embraced that part of it and they loved it. They love the food. It was a mini Seder 17 that Mitch conducted. But they were fascinated with it. They took it all in and they just absolutely loved it. That's wonderful. That's great. Yes. And with my boys, yes, they had the big bris thing, always. Whatever ceremony, whatever ritual that was part of our Jewish heritage, we did it. We did it and we continue to do it to this day. So did you remain at Temple Beth Sholom even when the other synagogues started opening up? We stayed at Temple Beth Sholom until our dear Rabbi (Mel) Hecht came along with Temple Beth Am, the reformed. He has conducted the wedding ceremonies for all of my sons. He did what he called his first "double bris" for the twins. He did unfortunately the funeral ceremonies, we'll call it, for both my parents and Ron when he passed away in 2003. So Rabbi Hecht has really been our Jewish guy for the past years. Awesome. That's great. Yes, yes