Transcript of interview with Milton I. Schwartz by Claytee White, May 4, 2004

An Interview with Milton I. Schwartz An Oral History Conducted by Claytee D. White The Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ?The Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2007 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Director and Editor: Claytee D. White Assistant Editors: Gloria Homol and Delores Brownlee Transcribers: Kristin Hicks and Laurie Boetcher Interviewers and Project Assistants: Suzanne Becker, Nancy Hardy, Joyce Moore, Andres Moses, Laura Plowman, Emily Powers, Dr. Dave Schwartz iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of Dr. Harold Boyer and the Library Advisory Committee. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank the university for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases, photographic sources (housed separately) accompany the collection as slides or black and white photographs. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project. Additional transcripts may be found under that series title. Claytee D. White, Project Director Director, Oral History Research Center University Nevada, Las Vegas iii Table of Contents Born (1921) and raised in Brooklyn, New York; enlisting in Army, December 8th, 1941; description of assignments in Army; returning to civilian life, 1945, and working as refrigeration mechanic; invitation from Flamingo Hotel in Las Vegas (run by Bugsy Siegel) to work at higher pay; description of Las Vegas in 1946; mention of Beldon Cattleman; discussion of Mob presence in Las Vegas; return to New York to work in family fixture business; buying Design Equipment Construction (DEC) in California and returning to Las Vegas.............................................................................1-6 Investing in nursing home with partners and converting it to Valley Hospital; mention of A1 Bramlet wanting hospital for Culinary Union members; comments on other businesses, including Formula 409 and cab companies in Cleveland and Las Vegas; discussion of plaques, awards, and college credits; mention of religion and contributions to Temple Beth Shalom; opinions on attachment to the idea of Israel; lengthy dissertation on reasons for hiring convicts; references to other plaques, including Distinguished Nevadan Award, 1999, which was simultaneously given to Steve Wynn and Pat Mulroy (head of water department)......................................................................7-16 Mention of donations to UNLV; active participation in Clark County Republican Party; comments on Mayor Oran Gragson, also a member of Valley Hospital board; details on getting involved with Yellow-Checker-Star Cab Company; explaining phantom income and tax sheltered income; major accomplishment considered to be Valley Hospital and bringing medical helicopter flights to Nevada; description of Milton I. Schwartz Hebrew Academy in Israel...............................................................................17-20 Moving permanently to Las Vegas, 1969; descriptions of Las Vegas in seventies; further mention of Republican Party participation; involvement with Jewish Federation and the Pastoral Society; comments on Howard Hughes' influence on Las Vegas; comparing cab companies in Cleveland and Las Vegas; importance of taxi authority; more on awards and plaques: favorite is birthday scroll from Schwartz Hebrew Academy; more comments on work with and awards from Republican Party..........................................21-27 Comments on changes in business climate in Las Vegas; mention of Terry Lenney, Kirk Kerkorian, Sheldon Adelson, Steve Wynn, and Rossi Ralencutter as power base in Nevada/Clark County; opinions on global appeal of Las Vegas and importance of gaming regulation; reference to Neonopolis, Fremont Street Experience, and high-rise development; closing comments on growth and the future of Las Vegas...............28-32 iii Preface Milton I. Schwartz was born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. He enlisted in the Army the day after Pearl Harbor (age 20) and did a five year stint in the Pacific as a repeater specialist. After the war he returned to his job as a refrigeration mechanic in Brooklyn and was soon offered a job out in Las Vegas at the Flamingo Hotel, which was owned by Bugsy Siegel. After three months in Las Vegas, during which time he had several conversations over dinner with Beldon Cattleman, Milton returned to New York to work with his father in the fixture business. After ten years he sold that business and bought into Design Equipment Construction, which brought him back to Las Vegas. Milton started or bought many businesses over the years, but the one he's proudest of is Valley Hospital. He and his partners brought the first medical helicopters into Nevada and he feels that many lives were saved because of that. He also invested in Yellow-Checker-Star Cab Company, which he still owns. Two on-going concerns that are important to Milton are his involvement with the Republican Party and the Milton I. Schwartz Hebrew Academy in Israel. Of the many awards and plaques he has earned over the decades, he is proudest of the birthday acknowledgements from the Academy. He believes strongly that the most important achievements of his life revolve around his religion and the children being educated in it. Milton shares many stories, facts, descriptions, and anecdotes about Las Vegas in the decades since 1946. He built a house in the Scotch 80's, contributes to UNLV, and approves of city growth and the proposed changes in the downtown area. He has contributed much to the growth and stability of the Las Vegas valley. iii ORAL HISTORY RESEARCH CENTER OF UNLV The Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project Use Agreement 1 Name of Narrator: Name of interviewer: We, the above named, give to the Oral History Research Center of UNLV the tape recorded interview(s) initiated on J/J J fa as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly/.nd educational uses as shall be determined, and transfer to the University of Nevada at Las Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly uses. There will be no compensation for any interviews. Address of narrator Library Special Collections 4505 Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, Nevada 89154-7010 (702) 895-2222 This is Claytee White. It is May 4th of 2004. I'm doing an interview this morning. Could you please introduce yourself for me? Milton I. Schwartz. And, Mr. Schwartz, if you could please tell me where you're from and just a little about your early life. I was born in Brooklyn, New York and I lived there for 20 years. On December 7th, 1941 Pearl Harbor occurred. I enlisted in the Army on December 8th, 1941. I was discharged on February 6th, 1946. Tell me about life in Brooklyn as a young person and as a young man, just a little about your early life, your childhood, what that was like. It was great. I had a lot of friends and went to grade school and high school in Brooklyn until I went away to the Army. So in 1941, how old were you when you enlisted? Twenty. Twenty years of age. It was one day after my birthday. Okay. Tell me what the Army experience was like for you. Where did you go through basic training? Fort Dix, New Jersey was basic training. Then I was shipped down to Camp Swift in Texas, a place called Bastrop, Texas. Seventeen days later, they gave a test to 3500 men. It was an IQ test. I was one of 17 people that were selected as a result of that test to go right back to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey, where I went through an extensive electrical engineering course six days a week, ten hours a day. I graduated as a repeater specialist. A repeater is a piece of equipment that accepts radio/telephone messages from one island, amplifies it, and sends it to some other place. So where did they send you after that training? After that, I went back down to Fort Sam Houston until I shipped out and went overseas. What did your parents think of you enlisting at 20 years of age? Oh, they were very unhappy. I had three sisters. My mother had lost a brother in the First 1 World War. I was the only son. I didn't ask them. I just went and did it. When you're 20 years old, you feel that you can win the war by yourself. Give me your parents' names. My father's name was Samuel, and my mother's name was Gussie, G-u-s-s-i-e. Did you have a lot of friends enlisting at the same time? Yes -- who enlisted? No. They got drafted. I enlisted. Okay. What about females? Did you know any females who joined at the same time that you were joining? Yes. I have a twin sister. And there were two girls who were twins in class with us. One of them did join up in the WAVEs. Okay. Now, most of this interview will concern Las Vegas. But this is really, really interesting because in my class we just discussed World War II the other day. Tell me what kind of campaigns you were in or what kind of jobs you had once you went overseas. And where did you go? First stop was Hollandia, Dutch/New Guinea. Then we went to Leyte in the Philippines. I was in many, many Philippine Islands: Mindanao, Samar, Cebu, Luzon. I can't remember any more. Okay. That's good. That's wonderful. So what was your work like? I was a repeater specialist. I operated one of these repeater bays. So you never saw a regular front-line action? Oh, yeah, I did. Oh, so you did that, as well? Oh, yeah. Okay. Go ahead. In fact, I was wounded in Mindanao by a bayonet. So you were that close to the action? Yes. So tell me what it was like when you got out of the military service in 1946. What had 2 the experience done for you? The experience, you can't wait to forget about it. It's not a pleasure trip. And I went right back to work as a refrigeration mechanic, which was what I did before the war. I was making $1.75 an hour, which was journeyman's wage at that time. I saw an ad in the paper that if you're the best refrigeration mechanic and can prove it and are willing to come out at your own expense and you want to work a lot of hours, we'll pay you $11 an hour and $22 an hour for overtime. That was from the Flamingo Hotel -- Bugsy Siegel. I came out by train. Of course, it was cheaper. Three and a half days. I knew I'd get the job, which I did. Interesting story. At that time the Strip was called Fifth Street. You know that? And Tropicana was called Bond Road. What is it now? Bond Road. There was no Sahara. It was called San Francisco Avenue. The owner of the hotel that I stayed at -- there were two hotels on Fifth Street, the Last Frontier ~ a different hotel than what's there now - and El Rancho Vegas. I stayed at El Rancho Vegas, six dollars a night. If I gambled, it wouldn't have cost anything. But I wasn't gambling. And Beldon Katleman liked me because I worked 6 days a week, 16 hours a day. Well, the reason they paid that kind of rate is because they were behind on their schedule and Bugsy Siegel was afraid he was going to get killed, which later on he did. I'm sure you know that. Yes. I'd have dinner after I'd get off work, eleven o'clock at night, and have to be back at work at seven the next morning. I'd eat at the ~ they call it buffet now. They called it Chuckwagon in those days. Both hotels had Chuckwagon [diners]. So Beldon Katleman said, "I know why they call your boss Bugsy." I said, "Not to his face." He said, "Everyone knows this town cannot support three hotels." And we were building the third hotel way out of town. Do you want to hear these little stories? Oh, yes, please. Yes. This is the reason. Incidentally, if my eyes are tearing, I told you I had drops so that it looks like I'm crying. I'm not. Okay, good. I don't want to make you cry. 3 No. So I'd like to hear more about both Beldon Katleman and about the employment process once you got here. What did you have to do in order to get the job? Nothing. I never met Bugsy Siegel, ever. I met Virginia Hill. Ooh, was she gorgeous. Please tell me about that, as well. I can never understand why a gorgeous lady like that became a prostitute, which she was. I just can never understand that. She was absolutely - when she would pass, men would go like this. Now, I thought she was his girlfriend ~ And remember, I was 25 years old at the time and single. Now, I thought she was his girlfriend. She was his girlfriend, but she was a prostitute before that. Prior to, okay. In any event, the job foreman had me braze some copper together, had me put on a pair of gauges on a compressor, asked me some questions, silly questions, and he knew that I knew my stuff. And he hired me immediately. Okay. So how did you get to know Katleman so well? I'd come there every night. He was the boss of the hotel. And he was always there at night watching the casino. And I'd come in every night and eat at the Chuckwagon. Occasionally, we started to talk. He liked me because I was a poor schnook working so hard. So I can't say I knew him so well. I knew him well enough to talk to him. And he used to talk to me. Good. Now, did he have any connections, as far as you know, with the families? As far as I know, I don't know. But I must tell you that everyone in those years was connected with the Mob. Many people say to me, "Why didn't you ever get into gaming?" And I would tell them what I'm telling you. If I have a dispute with someone, I'm going to call my lawyer. If you have a dispute with one of them, they take out a gun. I had just left the Army. I saw enough of guns. I have never, in all the years I've been here, because of that, ever been involved in a casino business. There are some people, whose names I will not mention, high-ranking people in the casino 4 business today, who are still paying tribute to the Mob. And I know who they are. And we still have those connections today? Only a couple that I know of. But it would be surprising who they are. Okay. That, you're not going to get from me. Okay. I won't even ask. Tell me how the businesses were run at the time as far as you know. Did Siegel have someone here doing all of the work, all of the legwork, or did he come in and out of the town? How did he put all of this together? He came in and out of town. I'll give you an example of how the Mob worked. When Caesars Palace was built, there were three partners: Jay Sarno, Stan Mowen, and Nate Jacobson. The head of the casino representing the Mob was a guy by the name of "Luttie" Zarowitz. Is that name familiar to you? Yeah. I was present when he said to Jay Sarno, the boss, "See this color carpet? That's where you walk. See this colored carpet? This is the casino carpet. That's where you don't walk. If you ever step over the line, you'll never get back to the other side." Right out in the open. And Jay Sarno couldn't walk into the casino in his own hotel. So who actually operated it? The Mob. And it was that blatant? Oh, absolutely. How did the people who lived here accept that? How did they feel about that? Many of them were connected with them, a lot of them. So after the job of building the Flamingo ? We were finished ~ I think they opened Christmas Day of 1946. Incidentally, a lot of people don't know that three months later they closed. You do know that. And then, of course, they opened up again. It's probably one of the most successful casinos in the city today. Did you continue to work there after it opened, after construction? 5 No. I worked there from August to December. So by that time, did you have a little nest egg with the kind of hours you were working? I had a little nest egg. I brought it back to New York where my father was still alive. We were in what was called the fixture business. We used to make walk-in coolers and display cases for butcher shops. And then we branched out into supermarkets. This was '46. Ten years later, I had sold my company for a million dollars. I was a millionaire at the age of 30 whatever, 1956. And then what did you do? I worked for the company that I sold out to and invested some money. I had some good investments. I went into a lot of other businesses. I've been in over 200 businesses. Wow. What brought you back to Las Vegas? I bought a company in California called DEC, Design Equipment Construction. They did a lot of work in Las Vegas. So that's what brought me back. When you left, did you ever think you would move back? I don't remember what I thought at that time. So that company was already investing and you were already working in Las Vegas as a result of that company? Right. So tell me what you did at that point. Did you start buying a home at that point? No. In 1970, a few partners and I bought a nursing home on Shadow Lane, closed it down, and built it into a hospital called Valley Hospital. We bought some homes in the area, and I lived in several of them until '76. Then I built a home, where I live now. Is that in that same area? In the Scotch 80s. I'm interested in one of the plaques that I saw on the wall. It was a plaque ? Incidentally, I'm what they call ? I forget what they call it ? distinguished person at UNLV. That's right. I saw one of those plaques. The plaque is over there. 6 Yes. I saw that plaque, as well. The one that was even more interesting to me was the one about helping people who are paralyzed from accidents. Oh, helping them walk again. What is that about? People who have spine injuries -- I'm still on the board -- they have equipment that helps them walk. Is this when the injury is new, or can it work also with an old injury? Old injury, too. The reason I'm asking is because I have a brother who lives in a nursing home now in North Carolina because of that kind of injury. So there are companies that make equipment that could help him? Yes. Okay. I want to talk to you more about that. Tell me more about Valley Hospital and why you even thought of doing that, starting a hospital. I had a friend of mine who was a union delegate, the sheet metal union in New York. He knew A1 Bramlet. Does that name mean anything to you? A1 Bramlet was the head of the Culinary Union. A1 Bramlet wanted a hospital for his members. He was going to give us the contract, which he never did. By that time, we were open already. It was just another business venture. I used to build pool tables for Micky Mantle, the baseball player. I used to sell surgical instruments, imported them from Europe. I've been in a lot of businesses. I had a company in Europe in 15 different cities representing American manufacturers selling American products in American military establishments all over Europe. How do you even come up with these ideas? People come to me with ideas. I started a company, which you may know, called Formula 409. I started that company. How did I come up with the idea? We met a "Farmer Brown" and his wife, mixing this stuff in a barrel. They had brown glass bottles. She would dip them into the stuff that she mixed, take a cap and screw on the top, take a label and put the label on. That was 7 the beginning of Formula 409. Where was this? Springfield, Massachusetts. So where have you lived, other than Brooklyn and Las Vegas? What other places did you live? California in Torrance. That's it. I had a cab company in Cleveland, but I never lived in Cleveland. So is that also the same as the cab company here? No. I have partners in the cab company here. The one in Cleveland, the only partners are my children. How many children do you have? Four. And they're all in Cleveland? Where do they live? One is a lawyer and an MBA. He has a house here and a house in Hermosa Beach. He'll be here any minute. He comes here Tuesday mornings. He'll be here until Thursday night. And I have a son in Voorhees, New Jersey. I have a daughter at Kingspoint in Long Island. And I have a daughter in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. Now, are all of them in business with you or just the boys? Just one boy. Just the one boy, okay. Tell me about what kind of person A1 Bramlet was. He was a difficult man to do business with. And let me tell you why I'm asking. I'm hoping you're thinking about some stories about him, really. I interviewed a lot of African-American women who worked as maids in the hotels here in the 40s and 50s, and they just thought the world of him. And I'd just like to hear more about that personality. They just knew him because he was head of the union and that union did things for them that made their life better. Good. So what kind of person was he to do business with? 8 Well, he promised us this contract and never delivered. So that says it all? Yeah. Okay. How did you get involved with Yellow Cab? I was the chairman of the board of Valley Hospital at the time, chairman of the board, president, and treasurer. And we were making what was called phantom income. We would have patients. They'd owe us money. They didn't pay us. Yet, we had to pay tax on the money that we did not receive. That's called phantom income. In those years, there used to be tax shelters that you could buy. This fellow sold me a tax shelter for Valley Hospital. He wanted to buy a cab company. I was a friend with the owner of this particular cab company. His name was Gene Mayday. He said, "If you can buy this company from me" - I forget the price; I think it was $3 million ? "I will give you one-third of the company. And if you run it for me, for 10 percent of what you're getting paid at Valley Hospital..." At that time I was getting $650,000 a year - so I ran his company for him for $65,000 a year. That's how I got involved in the cab business. Then shortly thereafter, doing what I do best, having one company was not enough, so we merged with Yellow Cab. Then we bought Star Cab. Then I personally bought Americab in Cleveland. That's how I got in. If you had to give advice to high school students, young college students today who want to become businessmen, what kind of advice would you give? Go to college. Get a job at the same time. Work hard. Be honest. That's my advice. If you're honest, it will pay you dividends your whole life. You never know when it comes to pay you dividends. Did you ever take the time to go to college? I went to college, but I never articulated. I have more credits, college credits, that I could probably have three degrees. But I don't have all the credits that you need for one degree. Where did you attend? They're all on the walls. Warden in Pennsylvania, Harvard, NYU. I did get a degree in the Army from Armed Forces Institute, which incidentally is a recognized university. That's about it. Good. Did you send all of your children to college? 9 Yes. And they all have at least two degrees. So they all have a graduate degree, as well? Yeah. Now, I noticed several plaques on your wall from Eastern Refrigeration Manufacturing, I believe. Now, what is that? Here's another one here. I got this one from the Commercial Refrigerator Distributors Association. It's an association of distributors and manufacturers. I said we used to manufacture walk-in coolers and display cases. So that's that original business from New York? Right. And I was president of that, and I was president of this. What do you do now? How many businesses do you have your fingers in right now? Thirty. How do you keep up with everything that's going on everywhere? How many secretaries? How many ? With great difficulty. I had Secretary's Day last week. I had 28 ladies for lunch. We have the list if you want to see it. No. So are they all here in Las Vegas? All here in Las Vegas. No, no, no. I have a company in Cleveland. Cleveland, okay. But other than that, everything else is handled from this central location? Right. And so do you have another office location? Oh, yeah. Okay, I see. 3950 Tompkins. So you have a house in the Scotch 80s. That's where I live. And then you have this location. Right. 10 Now, this location is where you come to ~ This is where I work, most of the time. I see. I go to the cab company once a day for a couple hours. Do you have a driver? No. I drive myself. Would you ever have a driver? I used to have a driver. I hated it. I used to work very long hours at that time, and I liked him. He was a nice guy. I felt sorry for him. He couldn't work my kind of hours. I've always been a workaholic. I think it shows with that many businesses. The town's been very good to me. Yes. That's great. I make more than $ 11 an hour. And even the overtime was, what, $22? Even more than that. I'm interested in ? I know that your religious faith is very important to you. Yes, it is. And I know that you had a lot to do with the building of the new temple, synagogue. Yeah, okay. Tell me about that. (End side 1, tape 1.) Tell me about the new synagogue and how you were involved. I'm just a monetary contributor. I used to be on their board years ago. I wouldn't say that I had a lot to do with the building of it. Tell me the name of it. Temple Beth Shalom. Is it the largest in the area? I'm not sure. It's close. It's either that one or Ner Tamid over on Emerson. I'm not sure if it's the largest or not. It may be. ll I'm interested in knowing more about the religion and how that has played a part in your life, the kind of decisions that you make. It'll seem corny, but ? That's fine. I believe in God. I pray to God. I go to services almost every Friday night. I'm not a fundamentalist Jew. Some people are. I don't follow all of the rituals that fundamental lists do. But I contribute to just about every temple. I enjoy it. Tell me the difference between "temple" and "synagogue." Is there a difference in the word "temple" and the word "synagogue"? No. But there are many Jewish sects as there are Christian sects. There are the Presbyterians and the Catholics and all of them. You probably know better than me. And we have reformed, constructionists, conservative, orthodox. That's four that I can think of. We're very different. Where do you fall? Conservative. What does that mean? It means I drive to the synagogue on Friday nights. The orthodox walk there. So then they have to live ? It means that I don't have a kosher home. They do. I don't go on all the holidays. They do. I don't go to the synagogue seven days a week, three times a day. They do. So do they pray three times a day? Yeah, they do. I know that you also have an attachment to Israel. I do. Tell me about that, how it started. Was that a family tradition? Did your father also have that same kind of attachment? All Jews, no matter what their sect, have an attachment to Israel. For thousands of years, we were kicked from post to post. You ought to have some feeling about that being an African-American. You've been kicked around pretty good yourself. I mean, African-Americans 12 from slavery. We were slaves, too, in Egypt. So Israel is our only haven in the whole world where they have Jewish cops and Jewish cleaning people and Jewish prostitutes and Jewish post office people and everyone's Jewish. Boy, you get a bunch of them together and listen to them yell at each other. Wow. Have you ever been to Israel? At least 20 times. I hope to go in September again. I love it. How long do you stay when you go? A couple weeks. Then I rush right to business. I love it. I feel so at home. And I also have a school named after me here, Milton I. Schwartz Hebrew Academy. You know about that. How did that happen? Again, it's going to sound like a corny story. Hitler tried to wipe out all the Jews, and I believe that we as Jews are going to do for ourselves what Hitler tried to do and failed. We're going to kill ourselves with intermarriage. Huge amount of intermarriage, Jews and Christians. I feel that by training kids from three, four, five years old to be Jews, they'll be Jews. And that's how it happened. Tell me what that means to you, to be a Jew. It's very important to me that the Jewish religion remains forever. And anything I can do in that regard, I will do. And it's important that it remains pure, as pure as possible? That it remains? Pure. Not necessarily. If it was pure, then I'd still be orthodox. So I'm not pure. Some people would call me a hypocrite. I don't think I am. I think that religion is a very personal thing, and I practice Judaism my way. I try to be good to all people because I want them to be good to me. It's that simple. On holidays, I always seek out a poor person to feed them at my house. I always do that. And it makes me feel good to feed someone, a stranger, someone I never met before. So how do you go about finding that person? There's an organization called Jewish Family Services. They come to the Jewish Family 13 Services. I call the Jewish Family Services, and I say, "Send me two, send me four." I feed them a nice meal on the holiday. And I enjoy doing that. Do you also try to find ways to help them in any other way? I've done that, too. I'll tell you an interesting story. This has nothing to do with Judaism. Good. I had a company in San Francisco manufacturing florists' refrigerators, refrigerators for florist shops. One day I get a letter from a convict in Alcatraz. He said, "I've been in here for 30 years and I can get out now, but they won't let me out because I don't have a job. Who's going to give me a job? I'm a murderer and I've been here for 30 years. I have no relatives anymore. If you will give me a job, I'll be the best worker you ever had." He touched my heart. And I hired him, a very quiet man. After a few months, he came to me and said, "You know, there are others in Alcatraz like that. They're in the same position. They're there. They've served their time. They can't get out because they have no relatives that will help them, and they can't get a job. If you hire them, I guarantee you'll never have a union. And they'll never do anything wrong because if they do, they know they're going right back for life." And that made sense to me. It got to the point where I wouldn't hire anyone that wasn't a convict. We were making more money because these workers were terrific. Incidentally, a very large percentage of them were African-Americans. Unfortunately, there were a lot of them in Alcatraz. Of course. For whatever reason. In the whole penal system. The whole penal system. If you see one of my plaques, I was a member of the board in New York State on the penal system. In any event, we made a lot of money, and I sold the company. That's what I do, I build up companies and I sell them. Did you sell it to an inmate? No. I sold it to a man and a woman. At the closing, she paid me. She said, "The first 14 thing I'm going to do is get rid of these convicts. They make my skin crawl." I said, "Lady, these are the people that made the numbers that you've just paid a premium for." She said, "No, I can't stand them." And she did. She got rid of all of them. In 18 months, she went bankrupt. Wow. Okay. The plaque was from the advisory ~ you were on the Advisory Board of Penal Institutions. Right. So was that one of the reasons that ma