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Interview with Corbin Harney, with Rosemary Lynch, August 4, 2005


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Narrator affiliation: Western Shoshone Spiritual Leader; Protester

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Harney, Corbin. Interview, 2005 August 04. MS-00818. [Transcript]. Oral History Research Center, Special Collections and Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.


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Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with Corbin Harney and Rosemary Lynch August 4, 2005 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Suzanne Becker and Mary Palevsky © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Corbin Harney and Rosemary Lynch August 4, 2005 Conducted by Mary Palevsky and Suzanne Becker Table of Contents Introduction ( Rosemary Lynch): birth and childhood ( Phoenix, AZ), education, work and travel, move to Las Vegas, NV to work in social justice 1 Discovery of the NTS, founding of Citizens Concerned about the Neutron Bomb, beginning of protest movement and first visit to NTS ( 1977) 2 Six- week Lenten vigil at the NTS ( 1982): relationship with NTS manager General Mahlon Gates, first act of civil disobedience, first contact with Western Shoshone people 3 Growth of resistance movement ( 1980s): American Peace Test ( APT), travels to Europe, formation of Pace e Bene 5 The Atomic Testing Museum: “ It’s not the complete story.”: testing in the Pacific, connection between the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and the NTS, acceleration of the U. S.- USSR arms race 8 Corbin Harney: founding of Shundahai Network, Shoshone participation in NTS protest movement 11 Rosemary Lynch: talks about relationship with Nye County Sheriff Jim Merlino and NTS guards during protest movement 15 Corbin Harney and Rosemary Lynch: stories of arrest and transportation of protesters to Tonopah and Beatty, NV, relationship with Jim Merlino and NTS guards 16 Annual Mother’s Day event at the NTS re: protection of Mother Earth 21 Rosemary Lynch: connection with Downwinders, organization of NTS Workers’ Radiation Victims Association 22 Corbin Harney and Rosemary Lynch: ongoing subcritical testing at the NTS 23 Corbin Harney: secret transportation of nuclear waste to Beatty, NV, and talks about the divisive of government money among Native Americans 24 Conclusion: general conversation and thanks 26 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Corbin Harney and Rosemary Lynch August 4, 2005 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Suzanne Becker and Mary Palevsky Interview recorded on audio and video tape [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. [ Recording begins mid- sentence.] Corbin Harney: — and the leaders are telling us what to do. Rosemary Lynch: Whatever happened to “ of the people, for the people, by the people”? What happened? Mary Palevsky: OK, we’ll start recording. And the reason I thought after Corbin agreed to come talk to us that I would ask Rosemary over [ was] because when we all were having that lunch a few weeks ago, you were remembering how long you’ve known each other and how many things you’ve done together. So we were just hoping that you would talk a little bit to us about— I’m curious how you met each other. Did you meet each other at the [ Nevada] test site or how did that happen? Corbin Harney: She was going that way and I was going that way [ indicating direction]. Rosemary Lynch: I guess I was going into the test site, and the police were waiting for me, something like that. Yes, I remember— well, to talk about— is it ready to start? Yes, you can just go ahead. OK. Well, to begin with, I had several episodes and epics in my life before I came to Nevada. I was born and grew up in Phoenix, Arizona when Phoenix was just a little town. And so it was UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 very much in the atmosphere of native people. So I grew up with Apache medicine baskets for a waste basket and beautiful pottery on the table and everything. So I had a sense of a culture that was not just my own culture. I had the privilege of a good education. And eventually I was a teacher, and after that I spent some years working in Europe. And in connection with that job, I got a chance to travel around to many countries in the world, and to learn a few languages. So that I considered a great privilege. And when that work was over, I came to Nevada, to Las Vegas to work in a little social justice center which was just being founded. And what did I discover? I was living on the rim of the Nevada Test Site. I had never heard about the Nevada Test Site. I had no idea that the United States government had been blowing up nuclear bombs out there, and I think I can say that at that time, 99.9 percent of the people in the country had no idea of what was happening out here on the land of the Western Shoshone. Well, I first discovered it when I heard in that summer of 1977 that then- President Jimmy Carter was asking the Congress for some money to develop a neutron bomb, which would destroy people but leave buildings standing. And I just was so shocked by the thought of a bomb like that, when a friend who worked out at the test site said, What’s he asking Congress [ for] money for to develop the bomb? We’ve already tested it out there. So I realized there was a big deception going on beside everything else. So that year, on Hiroshima Day, a little group of us banded together and we called ourselves Citizens Concerned about the Neutron Bomb. Well, the Citizens were about ten people. It wasn’t any big, imposing group, but we thought that would sound like something. So we went out to the test site. We went out early, early in the morning, before six o’clock, before UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 the sun came up, and I will never forget that morning. At that time there were no fences, no barricades, nothing. You could go right up to where the workers went in, which is where we went. And we got out there before the sunrise, and I still can remember that morning, the sun coming up behind the mountain, making the whole desert and all the plants a beautiful golden color. I was so thrilled that I somehow knew that, for a long time in the foreseeable future, I would be connected in some way with that place. So a few of us started going out early on the morning, when we would hear that they were going to perform a test out there. Now at that time the tests were being conducted underground because of the United States and the ex- Soviet Union had completed a Limited Test Ban Treaty [ LTBT] which provided that the tests would go underground but there had been a lot of accidents— when the earth split open and the mushroom cloud came up anyway and contaminated all the land. So we started going out there, whenever we would hear that there was going to be a test. And little by little, things got organized and so on. And in 1982, we decided, a little group of us, [ 00: 05: 00] to spend the whole of the season of Lent, which as you know is the six weeks preceding Easter, and it’s in many Christian traditions a period of penance and purification. We said we should spend that whole period of Lent out there near the entrance to the test site as an act of penance and resistance. And we dedicated that time to our patron, Saint Francis [ of Assisi], who also loved the earth and composed a beautiful canticle in honor of our Mother Earth and greeted all the creatures as sister and brother. So we felt united in this spirit of unity, a familyhood with all of the creation. And I have to say, that was a fantastic period in my life. Before beginning, I had gone to see General Mahlon Gates who was the head of the test site and explained to him exactly what we were going to do, make friends with him, and what did UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 he do? He kindly provided the Porta- Potties for the group and brought fresh water for us every day. And that convinced me that ever— we were on the opposite side, we were protesting what he was doing, but he was a good man. And so more and more we began to see that there is goodness in human heart, no matter how distorted sometimes it all gets. So we kind of went out with our faith in the human family to continue. And that year we had a beautiful vigil, and on Good Friday the first act of civil disobedience took place, which had been well- prepared for. A group entered into a zone of the test site where we weren’t supposed to go. Like I say there were no barriers, no fences, no watchtower. All that came later. As we said it was all built in our honor. Anyway, it wasn’t there at the time. And so we just went in. And that was also a very interesting time. We made friends with the judge, Bill [ William] Sullivan, who actually had tears in his eyes when he said, I would like to declare all of you innocent, but I have to follow the law, so he gave everybody three days in prison. Judge Sullivan just died a few days ago. I saw his death notice in the newspaper. He was a good man. Well anyway, that’s how this action began out at the Nevada Test Site. And my first contact with the Shoshone people came when one day when I was out there with just a handful of people, Bill Rosse came. I didn’t know who he was. But he came up and he introduced himself and he said, We’ve been observing that you were coming here and we want to say that, you know, we understand and we’re grateful now that other people are beginning to understand the problem and to express some resistance. So that was my first opportunity to learn a little bit about the Western Shoshone Nation. I became friends also with Pauline Esteves and later with Corbin, and so we felt a real community of spirit. And one of the nicest things that happened was that— and this was the idea of the Shoshone leaders, UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 that they would give us a passport to enter their land. I still have my passport signed— lifetime passport. Some got a limited- time passport, but Bill Rosse signed mine for my whole lifetime: I am privileged to enter the Shoshone land. And so that’s one of my precious life documents, which I still have. So that when we were arrested we would show the paper and say, I don’t understand why you want to take us into custody. We’re here with the permission of those whom we consider the lawful owners of this land, or the lawful custodians of this land, because they didn’t want to say “ owner,” but here we have our paper, you know, signed by their leader. Well, of course, it didn’t count, but even so, it was a statement. It was a statement of our belief. Time went on and pretty soon some other people began to come. I remember the day that I first saw somebody out there whom I didn’t know, because for a few years, it was just people that we knew here and there, a few students from the university, a couple of professors came out, and people that we had invited or that we knew. But it was so important to me that the movement was growing, the idea, the news was getting out, when the first group came that I did not recognize. So little by little, the resistance grew. [ 00: 10: 00] And in the meantime the nuclear tests were continuing. And the United States and the ex- Soviet Union had signed a Limited Test Ban Treaty which decreed that, first of all, the tests had to be announced to the public beforehand, and secondly, that the tests would be conducted underground. Well, before even that was insisted upon, that the tests had to be announced to the public, we always knew when one took place. Klaryta [ Antoszewska] and I were living together, and in our apartment the light fixtures would begin to shake. We said, oh, something’s happening out at the Nevada Test Site. That’s how— actually the earth shook many times because of the size of these bombs and the terrible repercussion of them. And like I say, a few times the desert UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 floor split open, the mushroom cloud came up and contaminated a lot of people. So all this was continually, you know, coming back to our consciousness. Well, as the resistance grew and got a little bit more organized and different groups began coming, it was really very exciting for a time. It became kind of a focal point of the peace movement resistance in the country, I would say. For a while it had been back East or some other places, but the Nevada Test Site really became a focal point for national resistance. Suzanne Becker: That was like in the early eighties or so? Yeah, it was in the maybe early eighties, you could say, mid- eighties. Mid- eighties maybe, early nineties even. And scientists came and well- known names came and groups came and organized. The [ American] Peace Test group came, and some of them had a little bit of money that they got from foundations. We never had anything like that because we were just small groups going out there, so we didn’t have any big organization that was getting grants or anything, but some groups began to come like that. And so prominent people began to come and a lot of attention began to be focused on the Nevada Test Site. This continued and the arrests continued; and at one time the number of people arrested exceeded the capacity of all the jails in the state, so you can see how it like snowballed. Well, for a while the attention kind of shifted away from the Nevada Test Site. Personally I got involved in other activities also. I had the privilege of being invited to Europe several times to give lectures and talks. That took up a lot of my time. I had the privilege of traveling to many countries and seeing many things that shocked me, like seeing these pictures of the starvation in Africa remind me of my trip to Africa when I saw much of the same thing, even in those years, many years ago. I saw displaced people all over, transmigration camps as they called [ them], and people being taken from one place to the other. So all these tragedies kind of built up in me. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 And at a certain point, two Franciscans priests, Alain Richard and Louis Vitale, asked me if I would join them in founding a sort of a group that would look at some of the motivation of these nuclear tests. We said we’d been protesting, we’d been holding vigils, we’ve had fasts, we’ve had prison sentences, all these things, and the bombs are going off like always. Do we need to see what’s causing those bombs that are going off in our hearts? That’s what’s causing the bombs to go off out there. So we decided that we would try to do some research on the whole subject of human violence as it related especially to our situation here, the violence of one people against another, the violence toward native peoples, the violence toward Mother Earth. And of course being Franciscans, we had the same love for the Mother Earth [ as] our patron, Saint Francis, you know, that was part of our heritage. So that’s how we started this nonviolence group which we also dedicated to our patron, Saint Francis, and we called it Pace e Bene, which is Italian for “ peace and good.” That was the greeting he gave to the people whom he met. Of course he’s a saint out of the Middle Ages. So we took that, and that group is still going on and trying its best to be look at the roots of violence [ 00: 15: 00] in the human heart, the roots of violence in the U. S. culture, in this consumeristic society that we have that is so filled with violence. I think it’s pretty safe to say that in countries that we consider, let me say, civilized, we have by far the greatest number of murders, of other, you know, personal tragedies that happen. Sometimes they publish the statistics and it’s appalling, the number of murders we have per capita in comparison with any other country. So there is this terrible violence that’s existing inside of our society, and I think we do have to be conscious of that, and one expression of that was of course in our history, the historical taking- over of the lands of native peoples, the decimation, massacres of native peoples, and so on. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 So when we say Nevada Test Site and we look at this, we’re really talking about a whole panorama of interlocking facts, interlocking tragedies, interlocking histories, and so on. And I think it’s not any less today. Now, at this time, the resistance groups have become very organized and they plan programs and so on. Everything has its evolution. So that was maybe an evolution that had to take place. But I go back to the earlier days when things were very simple and when we tried to express our solidarity with the Shoshone Nation and understand what was happening, which was a crime against them and a crime against the Mother Earth. So that’s just a little summary of some of my experiences at the test site. I don’t know if you have any questions. Mary Palevsky: You’ve really probably answered this but it was something I had thought of when I knew you were coming over, so I’ll ask it and then see if it stimulates anything else. When we got together a few weeks ago, you had been over to the [ Atomic Testing] museum and you, Rosemary, said it’s not the complete story. You’ve already said this but I wanted to ask you the question anyway: How would you go about telling that story in a different way or a more complete way? Because I was struck by the fact that you didn’t say it’s the wrong story. You just said it’s not the whole story. It’s not the whole story. They document in kind of a sense of glory and achievement, the explosion of these terrible bombs, for example, in the Pacific, the bomb that blew away whole Pacific islands and things like that. And it sounded like everybody was just so full of enthusiasm. This is was a great new page turned in history when we could do this, and we’ve defeated that evil empire over there. But all over the country, there were resistance groups. Our group, when we first began, called ourselves the Sagebrush Alliance, because there were alliances springing UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 up. In the East there was the Clamshell Alliance and someplace else there was a Desert Alliance and all these things, so we just called ourselves that alliance in solidarity with the other groups. Then there were several western groups that came together and we all called ourselves the Cactus Alliance to show that there were groups in four or five states that were all resisting military installations in their particular locality. And you know it was out of that general spirit of resistance, which really existed all over the country, to the idea of the nuclear weapons that motivated us a lot. We felt, oh, we’re not alone, sitting out here in the desert. There are people in other places. But I think a very successful propaganda job was done on the American people, you know, “ the bomb saved us.” Even when we visited that little museum, the young attendant said, Well, if we hadn’t had the bomb, that saved us, Russia would be over here, would’ve bombed us. We have no way of knowing for sure what a different pathway history could have taken. I am convinced we could have had a completely different history. Had we really put the energy, had we really had the best minds in the country, the best and noblest spirits, and there were many in the country who were resisting the nuclear bomb, and had they had more influence, I think we could have a different history. What are we doing now in Iraq, a country that didn’t do anything to us? We’re sending these young soldiers over there to kill people that have nothing to do with anything. Greed, power, we [ 00: 20: 00] would like to be the supreme power in the whole world, control the world’s oil supply which is a symbol of power and the promotion of riches. We have to be truthful about this. This has nothing to do with any kind of idealism and I feel very bad about the delusion which is happening to many people in the country over this Iraq war. It will end badly. The same thing in Afghanistan. In the very early days of that war, they showed one image on television of these young soldiers in their military uniform digging the trench for the pipeline, the oil pipeline that was going to go from [ the Republic of] Uzbekistan down to the Caspian Sea. But whoops! That was suppressed UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 immediately. We were there for some other altruistic motive. Nobody has yet figured it out, but anyway. Oh, the Taliban. I just remembered. But they were digging this pipeline. And the same thing, you know, if we have these delusions of the empire, it will end like every empire that has ever existed in history. And I know those are maybe dangerous words to say, but we do have to be truthful. We do have to look at this history and we do have to see what exactly is happening with this country that we love. I love this country very much. I’ve traveled in many, many countries, and I love some of them, too, but I really love this country for what it could be, for what it could represent. There was a time when this country was respected. It is not respected anymore. In recent travels, it’s looked upon as an oppressor nation, an aggressor nation. The sympathies of the world are not with us. We have to understand that. So these things are all connected some way with the tragedy of the Nevada Test Site, which was a great acceleration in the arms race. If you look at statistics and graphs that came out during those years, seventies, eighties, early nineties, the acceleration of the arms race and each new leap— we often like to say we have to do it to answer what was then the Soviet Union, but most of the time they were doing something to answer us. We generally took the next leap before they did. So, you know, that answer didn’t ring very true. So while there were many sites around the country where there were military installations and where there was a lot of resistance going on, I think the focal point was the Nevada Test Site. Without that, without the robbing of that land and the use of it, as well as some of the islands, for these terrible experiments, I think that the war machine would not have continued the way it did. And the fact that when we signed these various treaties, we always found some little way to get around things so we could more or less continue what we had in mind anyway. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 So I’m speaking as a person who loves this country very, very much for what it could be and what it could mean. And if I have any strength to resist the wrongs and the bitterness and the calamities and the crimes of war, I really would like to do that. Mary Palevsky: Well, I had another question but I’m taking in what you said, Rosemary, so I’m just going to be quiet for a minute while I think about what you said. Corbin Harney: Well, if nobody wants to ask questions— well, you know, the American Peace Test was the head of the whole thing at one time. So they fold up. When they fold up, I thought to myself, you know, I talked to a few of the people that’s been associated with what I’m doing, and I asked everybody, What do you guys think that we should name this? [ We named it] as a Shundahai Network and under Shoshone, so the Shoshone would really get up in arms and come out here and put a stop to this. Because under the treaty [ Ruby Valley, 1863] that they signed, I though. That’s when I took over at that time. [ 00: 25: 00] We called it a Shundahai Network. We held it for many years. And then I didn’t know what I was doing either but at the same time I was relying on the people because I always thought the people would really understand, especially my own people would really understand that we’re trying to put a stop to this testing at the Nevada Test Site. But somehow it didn’t work out like I figured. But some of the people like her, [ Rosemary Lynch] for one, keep coming and keep coming and saying we’re going to have to do something. So I kept saying I don’t know how we’re going to do this. Then I started ordering my people what we should do. And as I remember, I think you guys got tape on all of this stuff that we’re trying to do, what we can, put a tripod out there in the middle of the road, and then the young girl got hurt because the wind took that pipe that we had out there; the wind came up and then that threw her off of that— Mary Palevsky: I don’t know that story. What happened there? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 The wind took that pipe. We had them— the rancher used for irrigating their land, the aluminum pipes, we had three of them, put them together and put her up on top of that. But somehow we [ were] too busy doing something else. The wind came up and took that, one of the legs skidded off of the pavement, and she got hurt. That happened one time. So that was— I guess they asked me, Can we do this? And then I said yeah. We had a tipi out there, as I remember, and I think that the DOE [ Department of Energy] wanted to do away with it. Long as Bill Rosse or myself was there, they never come around. The sheriff don’t come around or nothing. But if we’re not there then they bother them people, saying, Well, we’re going to do away with it. I remember Norm— maybe you guys know Norm. He passed on not too long ago. He used to have a camp out there and stayed there year round. And they keep telling him they’re going to have to do away with that camp. And then when we’re not there, they took a front- end loader and moved everything away from there. So when we’re there, when one of us was there, they don’t do nothing. They don’t even come out there. Then another time I ordered the young girls, I said, You guys get yourself organized. I said, When the bus come in from Las Vegas, we’ll put a stop to that bus and then you guys jump underneath it, chain yourself underneath the bus. So everybody watched what we were doing. It’s organized as it can be. But their security was around the bus when it was coming, all right, but there was four young girls out there who had run to the— all the reporters from throughout the world that came on that bus that time. That’s the reason why we say, maybe you’ll remember. It’s in the history, in the books. That one they did put a stop [ to] that bus. When the bus stopped the girls jumped underneath it, they already had the handcuffs tied to their wrists. All they had to do was chain to whatever they can find, put the other cuff on. And they couldn’t ever get them out. And that one girl got hurt. Maybe you UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 remember that. What’s her name? The one who run over her foot. Maybe you remember that. What was her name? Rosemary Lynch: Yes, I remember there was an episode. Corbin Harney: But run over her foot at that time. So those are the things [ that] happened. Then another time I ordered people to, instead of doing it at the Nevada Test Site, let’s go out to Nye County. We go out there on Nye County and stop the whole system, the [ 00: 30: 00] highway. Maybe some of you guys remember that. We held that road for both direction[ s]. For six miles both ways the traffic was stopped. Of course, that was— then when the FBIs or whatever came to me, when they told me, You’re the head of this [ 00: 30: 23] Shundahai Network. We’re going to take you to jail, I said, Go ahead. I want to know for sure what that paper reads. When you guys said “ treaty,” you made a treaty with us. I want to know what this is all about. But, you know. And then this one truck had nuclear waste on it, coming in. They put a stop to it. Then I was talking to him and then everybody was saying, Get away from it. Get away from it. And I told him, By God, Why don’t you pull that truck off to the side of the road here? And then the highway patrolman rushed all the way from around the corner of that at the Nye County line, rushed over there with the red light on and told me, You get off the road. And I said, Why don’t you tell him to get off the road? I’m not dangerous. He’s the guy that’s dangerous. You’re supposed to be protecting the public. What are you doing? He didn’t say anything. All he did was look at his shoes. And we talked for about twenty minutes, I guess. Mateo [ Ferreira] and I was there, taking pictures of it. I got pictures of all of that. So do they. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 I think you remember that time. Maybe you guys remember when I told everybody I was going to cut the fence [ and] invite everybody onto my land, and told the DOE, the FBI, and— not FBI but, you know, county sheriff and so forth, I said, Tomorrow morning at eight o’clock I’m going to cut that fence and invite people onto my land. And I went out there, and I got pictures out there. I think you guys seen them pictures of it. I don’t see it in the museum but— Rosemary Lynch: I was there when you cut the fence. That’s where the barbed wire— we had to step over, too. Corbin Harney: Yeah, we cut the fence and then invited everybody in there with us. The next time we came over there, there was a whole bunch of dirt over it, and then we took a shovel and shoveled it off and made a road out of that. So those [ are] things that I have done, but they don’t have no record of it, but they do have a record for their own. They took [ a] picture of me where that standing up sideways or whichever direction. But I told Raynard [ spelling and last name?] the same thing over here when Raynard and Susie [ last name?] sat on top of the federal court building, and we put them up there on the canopy on the federal court building, and they chained theirself there with their ladders and whatnot. Took the Fire Department three hours to get them off of that. The sheriff told me, he said, You’d better get them guys off of this immediately or I’m going to take you to jail. And I said, Go ahead. That’s what I like to know. I said, That’s a federal court building. I’m a federal. I said, By God, according to your paper, I’m a federal. I’m controlled by you guys. You’re supposed to be protecting my land. What are you guys doing? They talked to us for about twenty minutes and then he left. Well, I’m with you, boys, he said. I haven’t seen him again. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 On that time, remember, you know, at the Highway Department and the sheriff, the highway patrolman give twenty- six people citations, told them by God they had to pay. They had to pay, I don’t know, three- hundred- and- something dollars at that time. Maybe you remember, some of you guys remember. But anyway, during the hearing, the judge told the crowd, You people, twenty- six of them, I’m not going to give you sentences at all. I’m going to tell you, you better go out there and work with Shundahai Network for forty hours, each one of you guys. That’s in there, you know, that’s on the paper. I got the paper on all of that. Rosem