Jack K. Leavitt interview, February 28, 1979: transcript

UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 1 An Interview with Jack Leavitt An Oral History Conducted by Alick Dziabczenko Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 2 © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2019 UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 3 The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 4 Abstract On February 28, 1979, collector Alick Dziabczenko interviewed Jack Leavitt in Las Vegas, Nevada. In this interview Mr. Leavitt talks about his childhood in Las Vegas. He also talks about his family life and his career in the city, as well as some of the many changes he has seen in Las Vegas. UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 5 The person being interviewed is Mister Jack Leavitt. The collector is Alick Dziabczenko. The date is February 28th, 1979. This interview was taken at 221 Campbell Drive, Las Vegas, Nevada, zip code 89107. The subject of the interview is the life of Mister Jack Leavitt in Las Vegas. Mister Leavitt, what is your profession here in Las Vegas? I’m a licensed real estate broker and a professional real estate appraiser. Okay. Jack, where and when were you born? I was born in Bunkerville, Nevada on March 9th, 1924. When did you come to Las Vegas? We moved to Las Vegas approximately 1926. My father worked for the highway department at that time, and we did move around to several different locations in Southern Nevada during his employment. Okay. So you lived in Las Vegas during the Depression? Yes. I spent all of the Depression years in the city of Las Vegas. How would you say your family did during the Depression? We fared fairly well. Everyone suffered to some degree during the (unintelligible) during the Depression, but my father did have a permanent job by the state highway department. His salary was something in the vicinity of five dollars a day at that time, which was a good salary for the Depression days. We didn’t have all of the luxuries that everyone would like to have, or that we enjoy today, but nevertheless, we were able to provide for the basic necessities. We didn’t suffer. Were there any ways that you supplemented your income at that time, do you think? Yes. My father had a gold mine. The gold mine was located between Nelson and Searchlight. And on the weekends, why, the family would all get in the family car. We’d drive out there and my father would instruct us as to what types of rock that we should break up from the UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 6 surrounding pit area. And my older brother and I would then pick up the rocks, (unintelligible) with gunney sacks and we’d bring the bag to Las Vegas. During the week, we would pulverize the rock, grind it up, and pan for some gold. We had a little bit of gold out of there. I’d say maybe something like ninety-five to a hundred dollars we could make in a month out of that gold mine operation. Of course, it wasn’t exactly too profitable because the—it was rough on the automobiles and almost every weekend my father had to buy a new tire to replace the one that he’d blown the week before. But he was finally offered 1500 dollars cash for the gold mine, and he had never seen 1500 dollars cash in his life. He sold it. Can you tell me what other addresses have you lived here in Las Vegas or Southern Nevada? What now? What addresses have you lived in in Southern Nevada? The earliest recollection, we lived about 215 South Main Street. And then again, this was when I was approximately four to five years old. Then I moved again to an address that presently would be 327 Casino Center Boulevard. And we (unintelligible) there and rented a house there until I was about seven years old. Then my father purchased a home—it would now be 329 North Eleventh Street. This house was way out of town, of course, and he was ridiculed by all of his relatives and friends for purchasing a house way out of town, as he put it. Shouldn’t be so far now. Going back to the Depression, was it hard for a family to afford common luxuries of today? Would it be what now? The— Would it be hard for a family to afford the common luxuries of today? What, the Depression is how you mean? UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 7 Yes. Depression salaries. Oh, absolutely. People couldn’t afford TV’s or—? (Unintelligible) There’s so many things that we have that we take for granted now. At that particular time, my—we were more concerned with the basics. Such things are, there was television as you mentioned, and even a radio. The beginning of the Depression, we had no radio stations in the city of Las Vegas. Very few people even owned a radio. There’s such things as air conditioning in your automobile for example. And the luxury features that you’ll find on the automobile of today. We were more accustomed to the basic Model T Ford. Get you from point A to point B, and that was the purpose of the vehicle, to give you the transportation. What were gas prices like? What? What were gas prices like? Well, ‘course I wasn’t buying any gas when we first here during the Depression. I was too young. The first gas prices that I can recall is when I bought my first automobile, a Model A Ford. We were paying nineteen and twenty cents a gallon for gasoline at that time. Alright, going back to the Depression times, was food available readily here in Las Vegas? And were all types of food available? Yes. There was no food shortage as such here. During the Depression, the railroad was operating, and we had the access to the markets of Southern California, the farms over there. A lot of local farmers raised vegetables and fruits. They were available here. Actually, we missed such things as frozen food if we would have to go back to that particular time now. But the—UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 8 there was actually no shortage of food as such here. Basic commodities were there. An awful lot of beans we ate during the Depression. Okay. I’m curious, were you educated in Las Vegas? Were you educated in Las Vegas? Yes. I’d say all of us who were educated so far as grammar school. We went to the Fifth Street School. And Las Vegas High School. There were no universities or colleges at that time in Las Vegas. Anyone going beyond high school had to leave the city in order to get a (unintelligible) education. Were you married in Las Vegas? No. I was in the army. I did marry a Las Vegas girl, but we were married in Oakland, California. Okay. Is or was church activity an important part of your life? Church activity? Yes, during the earlier years. The social activities in Las Vegas were somewhat limited for young people, and the church has played a very active part in providing your social activities. They were good activities. They were wholesome and we enjoyed them. Do you remember the visits of any of the presidents, such as President Roosevelt or President Hoover? Yes. I recall very vividly the visit of President Roosevelt, when he dedicated at that time Boulder Dam, now Hoover Dam. And I saw my first president from the steps of the administration building in Boulder City (unintelligible) at that time. And we did go to the dam, and I did listen to his speech, and everyone was very impressed. It was the outstanding occasion of this city for years. Do you remember, by chance, the crash of Carol Lombard’s plane in 1942? Yes. I can recall it. Anyone who was living in Las Vegas—that again, was quite a tragedy that we all felt very bad. You know, the first time that Las Vegas had ever been the scene of a major UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 9 tragedy that was carried throughout the world on the networks and so forth. And I was working for the Las Vegas Review Journal at that time, and this became a news center for the networks carrying the story and covering the attempts to recover the bodies and so forth. It was—one time where in Las Vegas became the center of the world wide focus of attention, but we didn’t want that kind of attention on such circumstances. We all felt very, very bad about it. Do you remember by chance, what the reasons were that they gave for the crash? There were quite conflicting reports on this thing. The plane, of course, as it was, it crashed into Potosi Mountain in something like only fifty feet from the top (unintelligible) the nearest that I could recall, it was caused by a down draft, pilot error more than anything else. And I’m giving sufficient clearance to clear the mountain and becoming caught in a down draft. Do you remember any of the important marriages or divorces happening here in Las Vegas? Such as movie stars or? There were many important marriages and divorces, but oddly enough, I was too young during the time that this was going on to have much of an impression—make an impression on me. I never really personally become too involved in the social activities or the love lives of the famous at any rate. And it didn’t seem to make too much of an impression on me. I was aware that there were a number of movie stars who were being married and divorced. Okay. How would you compare schools now to the way they were when you went to school? I believe that all in all, this, schools today are better equipped to educate you, and to give you the technical information you need to make a success of yourself in today’s world. The opportunities are certainly there. If anything, I would say the schools at the time that I was going to school were emphasizing the basic three R’s. The teachers, I believe at that particular time, too took a closer interest in the pupils. The classes were small, something in the vicinity of thirty to thirty-UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 10 five people. In the grade schools, you are segregated on each grade level by your ability to learn. Three different segregations—the quickest, the fastest learners were given class, for example (unintelligible) medium were 8A2, and the slow learners were 8A3. This allowed the teachers to concentrate and put their efforts based on the abilities of the student. So, this—what were those groupings that they put students in? Yes. It’s the three basic groupings based on your ability to learn. And I somewhat go along with this. I believe it had a good effect. I realize today everybody wants to be put in the same group, but I could see some advantages to the old system too. The thing that I miss I think, I (unintelligible) my own basic education would be having (unintelligible) curriculums that we are offered today in, for example, high school. There were two languages at the time in high school: Spanish and Latin. You could find, if you wanted to learn French, German, or some other foreign language, it just wasn’t available. This type of thing, I felt restricted the students quite a bit. As a youngster, what did you do for recreation? For the most part, we made our own recreation. We can find a vacant lot generally, it’s a matter of rounding up several of the neighborhood kids to get a baseball or football game going on the vacant lot. There were always your own activities. There were hikes into the desert that—the desert was always very close to where you lived, no matter where you lived in Las Vegas at that particular time. We didn’t get the city or schools or parks and recreation department to provide the entertainment for us, it just was not there. We provided our own. We did quite well. I don’t think I lacked anything in the way of recreational activities growing up in Las Vegas. Jack, do you remember if there was widespread air conditioning the way there is now? (Laughs) The first air conditioning in Las Vegas consisted of cottonwood trees. The city planted huge cottonwood trees on South Second, Third, Fourth, between Fremont Street and UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 11 (unintelligible) Avenue. The cottonwood tree would take a lot of moisture from the soil and it would evaporate. A huge cottonwood tree would perhaps evaporate as much as 2000 gallons a day. This has a cooling effect. And this was very nice. This made the—that particular section of town habitable. After a while, someone discovered that if you put burlap sack around a box and put an electric fan on that box, suck the air through, why, it would have a cooling effect. It wasn’t very long before people were building boxes around one of their windows, placing an electric fan there and sucking the air through. This (unintelligible) the first evaporated coolers. There you would find some—we still use evaporated coolers in quite a few homes in this area. The principal was good. It was a god send at that particular time. Of course, when the modern air conditioning came into effect, this was really in about the early 50s, before they were adaptable to home use. But we managed to survive, somehow anyway. The desert was hot. We realized that. So everybody took it for granted and you’d sit under a big cottonwood tree and took it easy during the hottest part of the year. Now what about heating during the winter? Well, I wish I had a nickel for every load of wood that I hauled into my house, and kindling that I cut for my mother. First, wood—first, heating was a wood burning stove in our home. I can recall that (unintelligible) both for heating the house and for cooking. Cast iron stove. Something where around 1932 or ’33, why, my father bought an oil burner stove and a tank of about two or three gallons. They put field oil behind the stove and this provided the heat. And that was a luxurious item so far as we were concerned. Eventually, why, when the dam was constructed and power became readily available and cheap, why, everyone was converting to electric heat. Now, you spoke of the dam. What was it like now having Lake Mead around to go to during the summers and go swimming? UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 12 Well, we always had Las Vegas Creek. It’s a steady stream of water and a few people’d go down there and go swimming there. And there was several large pools, swimming pools available at the old ranch, which is located just north of where the Elks Club is presently situated on Las Vegas Boulevard North. They had a large swimming pool there. It was open to the public. It was what we called a mermaid swimming pool (unintelligible) located in the 100 block of Las Vegas Boulevard North. I recall the price for swimming was something like ten to fifteen cents for all day swimming. We enjoyed that. (Unintelligible) established a swimming pool at Eleventh and Fremont. And here again, this was open to the public, so these things provided good swimming. As I recall, there was one favorite swimming pool of ours that consisted of a reservoir for irrigation, which we called the Hefner Range, located on West Charleston, just to the south of the present location of Sunrise Hospital. There was no charge paid for that particular swimming, and we would ride bicycles or hike out there and have a day of swimming. We enjoyed it very much. Going back to the dam, do you think the dam really helped a lot in providing many jobs for the people here in Las Vegas? Well, not so much here in Las Vegas. Of course, it did keep the basic economy going. Most of the jobs provided by the dam were given to migrants, those who were unemployed from other areas who came here seeking employment on that particular project. The construction of the dam, however, I would say, basically did keep Las Vegas from suffering the effects of the Depression that the rest of the country was going through. We had a large influx of people who were coming into this particular area. Young gents, they were desperate, they were broke. I remember my mother feeding quite a few of them. Men coming to the door, knocking on the door, asking for food handout. She’d usually manage to get a load of wood cut, something like UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 13 that. Had to do a little bit of work on the place, and then she would feed them. I never saw—I never knew anyone in Las Vegas who ever turned away a hungry man. I would say that. Going back to recreation, I know there’s a lot to do up in Mount Charleston now, but how about, you know, when you were a youngster? What were the mountains like? And if you wanted to go to the mountains for the weekend? We used to go to Mount Charleston. Yes. It was a nice place for us to go to, particularly during July and August, to get away from the summer heat. This was one thing. And then other areas around here, such as (unintelligible) Twin Lakes, Lorenzi Park. Mister Lorenzi was operating it as a recreation area then too. This was nice, to go for a picnic area and swim again. The Colorado River was really quite a muddy stream at that particular time, though. It wasn’t very good for swimming or boating. And the current was a little bit swift too. A little dangerous to go swimming. I do recall going down there when I was a child and seeing somebody pull a couple of fish out of the muddy river, but I never planned to do any fishing in it myself. Most of our recreation though did center pretty much around the city of Las Vegas. Okay. How about as a youngster, what do you remember about gambling? Well, that was for the tourists. Put it this way, being raised in Las Vegas and having raised two sons in this city (unintelligible) I will say this, that gambling was never an enticement for me. I always look at it as something that was for the suckers, so to speak. (Unintelligible) And I believe that the gambling tables have yet to get the first ten dollars out of my wallet. And I think the same can be held to my both sons. Neither of them, who are both grown now, adults, have any attraction to gaming and the gambling doesn’t attract them. It’s something that once you’re raised in the middle of and amidst in, you then find that it’s such a common thing and it’s just a UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 14 waste of money to go down there and try to gamble. You know the odds are against you, and as I say, the (unintelligible) gambling is for the suckers and I’ve never changed my mind. So that’s what your father told you? Is that what he taught you? Nothing he taught me, just a generally known philosophy throughout this area. My father was raised in Bunkerville, which does not have gambling and did not have gambling at that time. And he lived somewhat of a sheltered life. I wish I could say for him that the gambling didn’t take the ten dollars out of his wallet. I’m afraid it took that and considerably more. So you taught your sons that it was really not, not too good about gambling? Well— Or you just passed on—? Instead of being taught on—taught this particular thing, it becomes pretty self-evident in little observation. And they were very observing. Do you remember what Fremont Street was like when you were younger? Fremont Street was a combination of dirt and gravel. The first recollection that I have of it, the dirt and gravel streets of Las Vegas with a (unintelligible) during the early days, particularly during the summer with the dust. You were always living in a cloud of dust. I remember when they first paved the block between Main Street and First Street. My father put my older brother and I in the car with my mother. We drove down there. We did nothing but drive back and forth across that block all night. It felt so good to have asphalt paving under the tires of your car. Do you remember when they first paved Fremont Street? As I recall, it was approximately 1928, 1929. And we felt good when we had the one block of paving, because that meant we were a city then. We had a paved street! How about the Strip? Do you remember when the Strip was started? UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 15 I was in high school when the Strip was started. The first resort of course was the El Rancho Hotel. It was completed in 1940 and it was a nice place to go after a formal dance. A junior prom or graduation. And that’s exactly where I went for the junior prom and graduation. It was the place to go. We were very happy to see it in Las Vegas. And of course the Strip (unintelligible) we were very delighted to see every new resort hotel open. Can you recall any of the—like the order maybe of some of the resorts that opened up? What were the first few? Well, the first resort hotel actually was the resort here they called The Meadows, which is located just east of the present location of Montgomery Ward, south of Charleston Boulevard. It burned at a later date, but it was put up in the early 30s. And they did have entertainment. It turned out eventually they’d become a brothel, as quite a few places around this city were operating similar establishments at that particular time. But the resort area generally known as the Strip, the El Rancho Hotel was the first hotel to open, and the Last Frontier Hotel, which is now called the Frontier, was the second. And those were followed by others. The Flamingo and the Thunderbird, which is now the Silver Bird, the Desert Inn, etc., etc. Going back to prostitution, what did the common person think about having prostitution in your city, whether it was illegal or not? During the 30s and the Depression, you mean? Something like gambling, it’s for the suckers. I was—I was employed as a newspaper boy for the Review Journal, and I used to deliver newspapers on North First Street which at that time was Block 16. I became quite well acquainted around an early age, fourteen years of age, with quite a few of the girls who were there. I knew them by their first name, they knew me. But of course, I had a legitimate business there. I left the newspaper on the bars. I walked in and walked out. But I also had a chance to UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 16 observe the clientele that were frequenting the place. And oddly enough, I never seemed to want to lower myself to stoop to what they were doing at that particular time. The idea of following a pattern established by a drunk, it never appealed to me. There was never any attraction for that particular line (unintelligible) as far as I was concerned. And I think that the majority of the young men growing up in Las Vegas, they were not enticed by that particular attraction at all. Something for the tourists. Okay. Somewhere back then, World War II started. What was—what were the feelings of people right beforehand? In what respect? In so far as— Well, what was just the reaction of you know, the nation, as part of the country? It was something like a shock when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. Everyone in the country was in a state of shock. And (unintelligible) the first reaction was, as far as the young people were concerned, they wanted to join up, the vast majority of them. And quite a few of the young men particularly, I was a senior in high school at that time, and quite a few members of the class did sign up, join the navy, the army, air force, at that particular time. I finished school myself. Although I was in the army within the year after graduating. The town itself was pretty well mobilized, so far as backing the war effort. The unfortunate thing about it though, being a small town in an isolated area of the desert of the Southwest, you’re somewhat limited in what you can do with the war effort. Everybody tried. They bought the war bonds. The grey ladies at that particular time visited Nellis Air Base to cheer up the personnel out there. The town pretty well opened up to the personnel that were stationed at Nellis Air Base. It was a good thing. We always had good relationships with the airmen at the base. Do you remember when Nellis Air Base was first started? UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 17 It started about 1940. It was somewhat of a gradual building aspect of it. Gradual expansion. I worked with the US Engineering Department on a survey crew at Nellis Air Base during the construction during the summer of 1942. The unfortunate thing about trying to get any information on this, I was in the service myself in North Africa and Italy, and they just couldn’t give you much of a report on what did happen in Las Vegas during the war years. What did your family write you or maybe—did your family write anything to you? Oh yes. Of what was happening here? I still have letters. They kept me posted on the home front. And what was happening with my girlfriend and etcetera, etcetera, which I was always interested in matters of that particular nature. And they were all (unintelligible). They also kept me informed of where my friends and other friends in the service were, and where they were stationed around the world. Quite often, I was able to contact them—was able to contact a cousin in Casablanca, for example. And later I was returned to the states and I met a lot of local people in San Francisco when I was stationed at the Oakland Army Base. Please turn the tape over. (Tape one ends) Okay. Mr. Leavitt, what was it like returning to Las Vegas after the war? Well, Las Vegas had changed considerably. I didn’t get back to Las Vegas until November of 1949. I had to finish college. While some things were still basically the same, the town was much larger. A lot of new people living in the city who I did not know. And I had to somewhat become reacquainted again with my own—own community. I did have a rather strong base here though of friends I found out after a while. But it did take time to reestablish myself. Before I left, my UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 18 brother was now Myron Leavitt, the lieutenant governor of the state. He was known as Jack’s little brother. When I came back, I was known as Myron’s big brother. Well that pretty well tells the story. I mean, so far as the relationships, what happened, and what your position in the community is like. You had to reestablish yourself. What notices—I mean, what did you notice about Las Vegas changing after the war and beforehand? Basically that—I believe the entire country changed. The United States was not the same country after the war as it was before. I believe the people were more affluent. A number of these large hotels had opened up. We were having big name entertainment along the Strip. Las Vegas had embarked itself pretty well on a course to cater to the tourist trade and to the resort industry. Prior to that, we were concerned with the construction of the dam and then trying to encourage a few tourists to visit the dam. Las Vegas, when I came back, it started on its adventure to become known as the entertainment capital of the world. And it succeeded very well, I believe. Now, the economy had changed from being a railroad town in the early 30s to a town now of affluence and entertainment. Can you tell me about any other occupations that you may have had in the past? I think I mentioned that I was a newspaper boy for the Review Journal. That was my first job. I later worked for Misses Gowan, who had a contract to carry the mail from the local post office to the railroad depot, and to the aircraft. We were carrying mail at that time, one airline, Western Airline, was the mail carrier. I had to meet all of the trains and meet all of the airplanes. And this one individual—I happened to take care of the schedules very nicely, I could meet both the trains and the airline—now that tells you about how busy we were during the period. This was about 1941 and 1942. I would hate to try to meet all of the trains and the aircraft now coming into the UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 19 city. There’s no way. I then, after high school, I went to work for the core of engineers, the construction of Nellis Air Base. Went to college. Came back again after the war and I went to work for Clark County Survey Crew at what is now McCarran Airport. And later I went to work for the (unintelligible) Insurance Trust Company of Las Vegas as an engineer for them—for the firm. And 1961, I started my own engineering practice. I did have a degree in civil engineering and I always registered as a land surveyor in the state of Nevada. And I conducted my own private business for about eight years. In 1962, I also obtained a license as a real estate broker. However, it wasn’t until 1969 that I found out that it was worth money. Which I was instrumental in selling the Pahrump Mansion, Pahrump Valley. The commission I obtained from that ranch was greater than two years of the engineering work—the fees I was getting from engineering, the profit that we made. I sold my engineering business and went into the real estate business. And I’ve been associated with real estate and real estate appraisals ever since. Let me ask you a few questions about real estate. Did real estate sell very easily during the Depression? Not really. The land was cheap, yes. You look at land now on the Strip that is selling for something in the vicinity of several hundred thousand dollars per acre, and during the Depression, you could buy this land for one hundred dollars or less per acre. So you think, why didn’t the local people get in on this? Well, some of the local people could envision what was occurring. And after the El Rancho Hotel opened, why, it—the course was pretty well set. And we realized that the land in that particular area wouldn’t go up in value. But still, it cost money. To buy a forty acre tract at a hundred dollars an acre would be four thousand dollars. Very few people had 4,000 dollars that they could just speculate with and buy land at that time. Things UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 20 were still tight. You still needed to put food on the table, you still had to clothe your family, so forth. Those were the immediate concerns. There just wasn’t that much money available locally to speculate on these things, or to develop the property. In fact, if you look at Las Vegas Strip and compile a little bit of the history of what has occurred, you’ll find that the Las Vegas resort is constructed with out of state money and out of city money. There just wasn’t that much money locally available to do those things. As far as the local people, their task was to entice investors and developers to come in to this area and to develop. And this is what occurred. Would you say that all these casino builders were bringing a lot of money into Las Vegas, and helping the economy in Las Vegas? By giving jobs, you know, to the people who were building the casinos? Oh certainly. Of course, the construction itself was very important. Having all of your construction industry people—carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc. to do the work. And of course, once the casino was established, why, they did hire local help. They created jobs, and they created jobs with bringing money into the community, and this is what we wanted. This is what people wanted all the way through. (Unintelligible) slowed the growth down a little bit, I questioned that. I always brainwashed by the times, but I’ve always been an advocate of continued expansion, continued growth, and I still am. How would you say that houses—the construction of houses has changed in the past thirty years? Well, during the early 30s, the late 20s, a family would perhaps—a family of let’s say four or five would be very happy and satisfied in a two bedroom, one bathroom home, a kitchen, and a living room. This gave the basic needs—satisfied the basic needs, and if you didn’t know anything better existed, why, you were very happy with what you had. Now, unless you have UNLV University Libraries Jack Leavitt 21 something in the order of a three bedroom, two