Interview with Norma Cox, March 25, 2004

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with Norma Cox March 25, 2004 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Shannon Applegate © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Norma Cox March 25, 2004 Conducted by Shannon Applegate Table of Contents Introduction: birth, education, works at Nellis AFB ( Las Vegas, NV) providing logistical support for AEC, transfers to Haddock Engineers ( logistical contract supporter for the NTS) 1 Leaves Haddock Engineers, birth of daughter, hired by AEC as administrative clerk 2 Becomes secretary to AEC manager Joe Sanders; talks about prejudice against female administrative officers in the 1950s 3 Goes to work as secretary for Oliver Placak at the USPHS 4 Recounts work as alternate top secret officer/ teletype operator for AEC 5 Remembers impressions of observing atmospheric tests 8 Talks about work with to the USPHS ( later EPA) in Las Vegas, NV 10 While working for EPA, designs a budgeting system called Basic Capability 12 Talks about grade levels and promotions in government service 13 Becomes regional administrative officer for the ARS, Western Region ( Berkeley, CA) 15 Recalls meeting her husband and his work at the NTS 15 Talks about transfer to USPHS ( later EPA), their relationship to AEC, and her job duties and responsibilities in administration and fieldwork ( radiation monitoring) 17 Feelings about radiation and safety 20 Learning about management styles and techniques from EPA supervisors 23 Changes and continuity in the Las Vegas EPA organization 25 Recounts husband’s work with testing in the Pacific, and accident on the Widowmaker 26 Remembers visits to the NTS, mine tours, and miners’ belief that women were “ bad luck” in the mines 27 Talks about Area 400 and development of nuclear engine for spacecraft, and NTS work on the Plowshare program 29 Recounts work for the National Park Service and the Department of Agriculture 31 Work with League of Women Voters and as chairman of the Wash Development Advisory Committee, working in wetlands restoration at the Las Vegas Wash 32 Recalls job with National Park Service, work on Grand Canyon restoration, rivalries among various parks within the system 34 Encounters with protesters in Colorado while working on Plowshare 37 Testing and security 38 Camaraderie among people connected to the testing program 39 Talks about working hours and conditions during testing, life in Mercury, NV ( NTS) 40 Discusses change in attitude about uses of nuclear energy 41 Conclusion: Feelings about Bush Administration’s take on parks and conservation 42 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 Conclusion: opinion on Republican administrations and end of opportunities for women in government service. 42 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Norma Cox March 25, 2004 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Shannon Applegate Shannon Applegate: First off, could you briefly describe in about five to ten minutes, give us your name, your date of birth, where you were born, and how you came to be employed at the AEC. Norma Cox: OK. Well, my name is Norma Cox and I was born, I hate to tell you the date but July 18th, 1925 in Las Vegas, Nevada. And I went to school here and then I went to college in Long Beach at the junior college there. When I completed that I went to Occidental and got my degree in economics. My mother had a stroke— my intent was to go into the field of merchandising— so I had to return to Las Vegas to care for her. And in looking for a job I first went to a bank, and then to Nellis Air Force Base. I was with a group that provided the logistical support for the first AEC people that came out. There was no permanent contingent here to do the testing at the test site. And I thought gee, wasn’t that exciting, what those people were doing. And then I— my husband convinced me I should leave Nellis and go to work for the AEC because they were paying better pay. So I left a GS [ government service]- 4 to go to a GS- 5 job at the AEC. Actually I started July 1951 and I worked for the first logistical support contractor at the Nevada Test Site, which was the Haddock engineers. I worked for them for a couple of months until my Q- clearance came in. And since I was the first person that was cleared in Nevada, the first person hired in Nevada, my Q- clearance is NT- 1. So I have a very easy number to remember. I think the reason they hired me was they were looking for people obviously that they didn’t have to spend a lot of time chasing their background. Since I was here locally when I went Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 to work there were two other women in the office, on loan from Los Alamos. I don’t remember whether it was a field office or what, but it was Lois Craig and Pat Hammel. They worked here for a couple of years. Our first office was on Third Street, Third and Fremont, over Bond’s Jewelers. We moved from there, and at that time it was a field office and the manager was Kennor Hertford. He was a colonel. Well, most of the people came out of the Manhattan Project. And then he was replaced by Seth Woodruff. And Seth Woodruff came on the scene not long after I went to work for them. And they were growing. Largely the offices— two things. Security and a group of engineers that actually built the Nevada Test Site. It was Ed Althaus who was in charge of the engineers. Who? Ed—? Ed Althaus. Yes. And anyway it got too big so we moved. We rented some space over on Main Street, and I think the address is 1231 South Main. And we were there for some time. Well, I had to leave because in those days women weren’t allowed to get pregnant and I got pregnant. And so I left in 1952 to have my daughter. And at the time I left I was working for a gentleman by the name of Craig Voorhees. Craig Voorhees was the chief of the administrative branch. And actually the person that had interviewed me was Stanley Froistad. He actually did the hiring of me but I worked for Craig Voorhees. And I left, as I said, in 1952, and then after my daughter was born I went back. And they had filled my position but Craig and I got along well. He decided— there was an administrative officer that had left— so he took the position and broke it down to an administrative clerk so that I could go into it as a GS- 6. And I was in that office— they actually created a job for me. My Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 function was to stay in town while they went out to the test site to do the operations. My responsibility was, one, to supervise the receptionist. We had a whole group of public information people come in. Because in those days you had a lot of the top journalists from not only the country, but the world, out to see those atmospheric tests. We also had a lot of Congress people, and so, too, my responsibility was while they were in town I was to provide whatever they needed. Oh OK. So you met a lot of different people. Yes, I really did. Yes. For example, I met Robert Oppenheimer. Oh, did you? But earlier I had met him. What were your impressions of him? Actually it was just a casual thing, and I was impressed by everybody because in those days they were really very remarkable people. Well, still are. Yes. And so anyway that was my job. Well then I worked there until it was 1955, and my husband had an automobile accident and I had to care for him. So I asked for a leave of absence and I wasn’t permitted the leave of absence, and I think there were two things. By this time the field office had been broken down to a branch office, so I had been the administrative clerk. In order to protect my grade they put me as the secretary of the manager, who was Joe Sanders. And so when I was working for Joe Sanders— I asked them and he wanted to give it to me— but in those days there was a lot of prejudice against women. In fact the personnel officer said to him, There will be no women administrative officers as long as I’m personnel officer of Albuquerque. They provided all of our personnel services in Albuquerque. And so Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 I think that was partly the reason. The other reason was Craig had left by this time and, Sherm Sullivan came on board. He came from Oak Ridge and had a secretary that he wanted to bring out with him, and so I wasn’t given the [ position]. What really pleased me— Joe Sanders said to me shortly before he died, the biggest regret of his life is that he hadn’t been able to give me that— Oh, that’s nice. Yes, that was really nice. It was really nice. But anyway, so when I wanted to go back to work, which was in 1957, they didn’t have a job for me. So while I was working for Joe Sanders there was a man named Oliver Placak. He was in charge of the Public Health Service people. And in those days the way they used to run the off- site radiological safety program is that Ollie Placak and his assistant would have coming to them on loan people from Washington, from other Public Health Service offices, and state health officers from all over the country. And we ran through usually, as I recall we had one operational period where they ran through three sets of these people. And there were about twenty- five people assigned at the time. He had been encouraged to hire a secretary, and actually I had been doing his secretarial work while I worked for Joe Sanders because they were very close. And so he talked to the people in Washington. Well, the grade became an issue. They wanted him to hire a GS- 4 and so I said well, I wouldn’t take that. But anyway, he said, Well here, you write your job sheet and we’ll see if you can get it. Well, I was given my grade back. Went to work for him and I was most fortunate because those two gentleman talked about everything on the test site. And they did me the courtesy of taking me to coffee with them. And so I know it made Ollie’s deputy kind of irritated because he wasn’t taken but they took me. Made who? The deputy? Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 The deputy for Ollie Placak. He had a deputy and then he had some other people but he took me. Now why did they take you? They seemed to like bouncing things off of me, and the other thing about it. I was the alternate top secret officer back when I was working for the AEC, because I was the one that knew how to operate the teletype, and when the top secret information came across it was encrypted and somebody had to get it copied. How did you learn how to do that? I learned on the job. Did you just figure out the machine or— No, when I mentioned the two gals from Washington, we always had classified information coming in, so because I was to fill in for them, why, they taught me how to do it. How neat. Now what was that machine like? Well, it was a big thing like this, but it worked like a typewriter. What you did is, it had tapes in it and when you typed it made codes on the tape, and the news went over the wire and was sent to someplace else. So there was a lot of classified information coming back and forth. What you did with the classified information, if you were sending it, you had duplicate tapes with Los Alamos, with Washington, with Albuquerque, the different offices, and what you did is you took the tape that they had the copy of and you put it in and it would actually scramble your message. Oh, how neat. Yes. The only unfortunate thing about it is I couldn’t keep a watch because my watches got magnetized and I was constantly trying to get them repaired. I’d take it down to a jeweler and they’d say, Oh, we got it fixed, and they’d have somebody in the shop wear it for a half a day and, Oh, it’s fine. I’d put it on— Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 It’s gone. Gone. But anyway— Was it complicated to learn how to use it or was it like a typewriter? Well, it was complicated in that you had to know where— I mean there were different things about capitalizing. It wasn’t real complicated. OK. OK. But now why didn’t the deputy learn how to work that machine? Well, I’d learned when I was— I was no longer the top secret officer when I worked for Ollie Placak because that had to stay within the AEC. But anyway, actually I’d learned, I think— who was the manager? I learned it under Seth Woodruff. Then of course he was replaced by, oh, what’s his name? [ Max Smith] Anyway there were several managers and they were always the top secret officer and I was the alternate because they didn’t know how to operate this thing. Right. Did they just not want to learn it or was it time- consuming? It took time and it was a clerical function so probably a little beneath them so they didn’t learn it at all. Now, becoming the alternate top security officer, was that like a promotion or did that give you a different status in the office that you knew all this top secret stuff or—? No, what gave me status— Craig Voorhees, when he was there, was not married; the man saved every nickel he ever made. He asked me, because— one of the things I’d had to do— I simply did it because as people come and go I guess they thought they could depend on me— I had to show everybody how to operate the safes. We had a whole room of banks of safes with all this classified information, and Craig asked me to keep his bank books. Really. So you knew all of his finances. Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 Well, I never looked at them but all the girls wanted me to look at them, all the single girls, and some of the married girls. Oh really? They had designs on him, huh? Yes, because he was a very smart man and he was quite attractive and single. Did he romance anybody in the office? No. No. No, he moved from there. He followed a fellow that was manager of the total AEC, and I don’t remember his name right now, but they moved to Buffalo, New York. The fellow that became the manager of the whole AEC became the manager of Buffalo operations office, and he and Craig moved there. And a fellow named Quidor took his place. Now the AEC, did they have offices all over the country, is that how that was? Yes, they had offices in Oak Ridge and Savannah River. Now I don’t know when the ones in Richland, Washington, or, the ones in Idaho came on. But you had Albuquerque, you certainly had Los Alamos, and most of the people that initially manned this office came out of Los Alamos, the security officers and, as I say, the engineers. But each office had individual responsibilities. Was there a lot of communication in between the offices or—? Yes. Did you rely on each other for different aspects of your job? No, it was mainly the transferring of test information and classified information. There were test plans for every test and we had a lot of scurrying around to get congressmen cleared and journalists cleared so that they could come out and view the— so there was a lot of that. And when they set up the visitors’ center, they would bring people in from all over their offices and Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 they would help with the information and providing services for the visitors. But I had the fortune, good fortune of seeing almost every atmospheric test. Did you really? Yes. What were your impressions of the first one you saw? It’s awesome. Really? Yes. It’s awesome. And of course you wore big black glasses. And the funny thing about it, not much was known about seismic motion at that time, and so I remember one time they told us that we all better sit down because this was going to be a big one. Well, we felt nary a thing. And then another time they said, This isn’t going to be big. You don’t have to worry about it. People were falling down. Really? Is it like a gust of wind? Yes. It’s more than wind. It’s heat. Really? Yes, there’s tremendous heat. Nob Hill, we went and saw it there and we were pretty close. I don’t know that we were as close as the [ Camp] Desert Rock people but we were very close. Now, was there a smell, like, was there—? Not a smell. It was the rumbling of the ground underneath you and this sense of light and heat that was just— Were you afraid for your safety at all, or did you think it was just really safe? Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 I really trusted them that they knew what they were talking about, and they were there right with me. And I wasn’t the only one. I probably went to more than anybody else because of the responsibilities I had. But I thought it was exciting. Now why were you there? Why did you get to go to the tests? Because they were something to see. It was a new experience for people. When I say my responsibilities, particularly when I was arranging for the logistical support for the visitors’ bureau and that. Oh, OK. In fact, before I ever left the AEC they had gone to the underground tests and so there were no more of those. But I remember when I was pregnant, I was taking a tour— I don’t remember who was taking me on the tour of the test site— we went to one of the towers, and the men wanted to climb it up and they encouraged me to climb it up, and I was pretty far along. How far along were you? I think I was about six, seven months. So you were showing. Yes. Oh yes. They knew I was going to— Oh wow. And you didn’t climb up. No. Now what was the tower? Was it just—? Well actually it was metal and then on the top of it, it had a little cage, and that’s where they would set the device, and they would drop the device from there. Ohhh. Now was that one of the towers that had already gone off or was this before? Well, I guess it would be before because after it would disintegrate. Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 Yes, it would be before because later it was gone. But when they climbed up, was the device in there? No. No. Now there was one gentleman by the name of York. They had one that didn’t go off. Were you there at the one that didn’t go off? No, I wasn’t there. Actually I went out and they told us it wasn’t going to go off, but they had to disarm it and this gentleman went up and disarmed it. There was a big story in all the newspapers. Who went and disarmed it? That would— His name was York. OK. That would be scary. Yes, that was scary. So were there any mishaps that you can remember at the atmospheric testing, or did everything go off according to plan and— Well, as I said, seismic knowledge wasn’t very good but they developed a lot— if they set it off here and then it gave them some indication of the nature of the underground by the way the motion went. But anyway, so I’m now working for the Public Health Service. Part of the deal was when they hired me that I was to still provide the local procurement and to provide the personnel services for the AEC people, but I was to work for the Public Health Service. Now when was that? That was in February of 1957. So I started with them, and they later became the Environmental Protection Agency. But I worked until I left there in 1974. Because we had a very large reimbursable contract, we provided, as I said, all of the off- site radiological safety monitoring. Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 We had the aircraft that now are, I guess, are with EG& G, I’m not sure where they are, but we acquired the aircraft and did the monitoring. By this time I was moving up, finally. Yes. Yes, I was moving up. In fact, when I left here I was the highest paid, highest grade woman in Nevada. Now how do you move up? Is it based on seniority or do you have to take a test or—? Well, I did have to take a test at one time, which made me mad because later they did away with that; as long as you had a college degree and a “ B” average they could hire you and I certainly had that. But actually what it was is that it just seemed like people kept asking me to do more and more and more, and so my job just sort of grew. And anyway my principal contact with the AEC was with the budget and preparation of all the cost estimates and supervising the accounting crew that kept the records. It was interesting because EPA had its own cost accounting system and DOE had its own, so we ran everything on a dual system, which complicated things a little bit but— So was it like a dual ledger book, is that what—? No, by this time we were into computers. Oh, OK. So you had to learn computers. Yes. I never actually worked a computer but I had to learn them because I had to know how to set up a system because we had to set systems up, and the computer specialists we had were all technical. I mean they were for the monitoring side and the technical information, so we had to help them design the system. So the other thing that I was very proud of— in fact since I retired I became a member of the League of Women Voters and I was asked to serve on a committee that was looking at the Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 strategic management plan for the high level waste repository. At one of the meetings someone came in from Nevada and very proudly announced that they were the only operations office that had a form of funding called Basic Capability. And I thought, My God, if they only knew, because I had designed that. Did you really? I designed it for EPA because when I left our reimbursable contract was about a million and a half [ dollars] and it was difficult because the DOE was facing cuts and it was difficult to get money for any projects. But I worked on that. In fact, you talk about what it is. Here I am coming over with my assistant, and he was male, to present to all this roomful of men this thing, and they didn’t get it. And they thought I was nuts. And anyway, I walk in and they almost asked me, Will you bring the coffee? Did they really? They didn’t believe that was the sense of things. What are you doing over here? And a lot of them remembered me back when I was a secretary over here. Anyway, we went back and forth and back and forth and I don’t know how many meetings we had. That was when they were on Highland. And finally the then- manager of the DOE, oh, what was his name? [ Robert Miller] He’s dead now. But he said, Well, you tell her to bring me some briefing material. So I sat up most of the night working on that, and I took it over before I went to work and gave it to him, and by that afternoon the word came out: Give her Basic Capability. What year was that? Oh gosh, well, I left in 1974. It’s got to be around 1972, 1973, something like that. And what evolved where you created this? It’s like an accounting system? Yes. What led up to it? Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 I mean it was more of a budgeting system. Well basically because the DOE funds were being cut and they wanted to give us enough money— then they would spring tests on us— and we didn’t have enough money. And so what we wanted was to be able to be sure we kept a certain cadre of people that could perform the work. And so we said, You give us this much money for a basic capability and this will pay the basic salary and we’ll distribute their costs as they go into an operation and give you the cost information. But we need that funding to be able to hire them and to keep them, and then when you have a test you ask us how much overtime, how much travel time do you think it’ll take, how much additional expenses, and we’ll give you that but keep that separate. The other is the basic capability. Now I don’t know whether they’ve adopted exactly what I had but I was so pleased to hear that because I had fought so hard to get it. It was just really something. But anyway, what else was interesting about my time there? You mentioned your GS- 4 and GS- 5. What was that? Was that just a different grade or—? Yes, in the federal government every job has a grade level assigned and they range from GS- 1, although I’ve never seen a GS- 1 or have I seen a GS- 2, but they range from that to a GS- 18, and now they have a senior executive service. In those days the managers of DOE were [ GS]- 18s and I don’t know what they are now in the Senior Executive Service. So it’s better to be at the [ GS]- 18 level because that’s a— Yes, very much better. And how do you move up that ladder? Most of my moves were that I created my own jobs. OK, so it wasn’t like you put in a year- and- a- half and you were moved up or— Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 No, no. There was no automatic anything. Actually I didn’t get into the competition world until— with the EPA we had four research centers, and we had one in Cincinnati, one in Durham, North Carolina, we had one in Corvallis, Oregon, and we had one here. I was called a management officer, and my three counterparts were male. Two were GS- 15s, one was a GS- 14, and he didn’t have any authority. We did all of his contracting, we did all of his personnel work for him, which the grades are based on, on your level of responsibility. And he was a [ GS]- 14 and I was a [ GS]- 13. And I left because they kept promising I would be the same as the Cincinnati and the Durham, that that’s where I could go. Finally the head man in my field, which was administration, came out from Washington and said, Yes, we’re ultimately going to have one out here. Whether you get it, I don’t know. How did you feel about that? Oh, I felt terrible. I mean I felt mad. I was really mad because I had been promised that for about two or three years. That long. Yes, it was a long time. And so I went in to the director of the lab and said, Find me a job that I can sit in while I look for another one. Fortunately for me I found one in six months and was able to move. I moved into the Bay Area and then I moved from that job to another one and I got my [ GS]- 15. Did you really? So the highest you went up was [ GS]- 15? Yes. Does that affect your pay? Oh absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, OK. OK, so that’s why you wanted to move up. Oh yes. Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 OK. So that was the only way really, it sounds like, to move up, would be you’d have to move to different offices. Yes, you’d have to move to different offices. How’d your husband feel about that, and your kids? By this time my husband had had a couple of automobile accidents. He worked at the test site and he could no longer work. He had cancer. And my daughter, we tried to get her to go with us when we moved up. My job was in Berkeley. I became the regional administrative officer for the Agriculture Research Service of the Western Region. And we tried to get her to move with us and she went up and in those days Berkeley was a—. Was this in the 1960s? In the 1970s. Late 1970s. She took one look at it and said, This isn’t for me. She wasn’t a hippie. No, she wasn’t a hippie. So she stayed here and we moved up there. What did you husband do at the test site? I didn’t know he worked there. Yes, he worked there. He started out in supply, as I recall. At one time, I think I can say this, he was the assistant manager out at Groom Lake. And that was when he had his second accident. And from then on they were very concerned about medical claims, so he had kind of an on- again, off- again, and then he was in and out of the hospital a lot. Did you all meet through the test site or had you met before? I had met him when I worked at Nellis Air Force Base. OK, and then you both just worked for the test site together or—? Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 Well actually he stayed with the Air Force and then I went to work for the Atomic Energy Commission. Then he quit the Air Force and— I mean I knew the top people— so they were able to help him get a job. So did he know them through you? You were his connection. Yes. Oh, that works good. Yes. But anyway it was a fun time, a lot of very nice, interesting people. Did you meet any reporters? Oh yes. Any famous—? Yes. Who did you meet? Gladwyn Hill was the one name I can remember, but that’s really the only one that’s like a memory. And then you helped them get out there and see the testing and everything, so you were kind of their coordinator, is that—? Yes. And it sounds like you moved through all sorts of different aspects of jobs. Yes. Now when you moved up all the way through to the GS- 15 level, were you still under the umbrella of the AEC or—? No, no. This is just moving throughout the government. Cox_ N_ 03252004_ ARCH. doc UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 17 No, actually as I said, I had moved to the Public Health Service which became the EPA but my relationship with the AEC, they used me to do a lot of the— if we had a contracting problem, for example, we needed a telemetry system so they could telemeter the radiological data— so at that time REECo was the support contractor and it was a problem. So I worked with their contracts people to try to get that straightened out. What was the problem? Well, it was just that the specs hadn’t been that good, which in those days that was very common because there wasn’t anything off the shelf that you could go out and buy. People designed it and they thought maybe this will work this way and then work that way. And then as I said I did all the budgeting and then I worked pretty close with the personnel people over here, and the legal people when we were getting into a contract dispute. Now when you were working for the EPA and you were getting all this radiological data, did you have to learn the scientific jargon and— Oh absolutely. Was that intimidating or—? Yes. When I first was hired, there was Ollie Placak and Mel Carter,. Then he brought in two additional— they were all commissioned officers, which is they carry a rank like the Navy. And anyway then they brought in all these people to help in the time of an operation. So I became the secretary, I became the radio operator, because they were all out in the field and we had to maintain communications with them, so they’d call in to me and tell me they were here, there, or what. And so because I had to type all the reports of all their data, I ce