Transcript of interview with Joyce Mack by Barbara Tabach, February 23, 2015

AN INTERVIEW WITH JOYCE MACK An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach The Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas i ?Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes, Stefani Evans ii The recorded Interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas iii PREFACE Joyce Mack: wife to Jerry Mack and matriarch of one of the most influential families of Las Vegas history. During this oral history conversation, she begins by tracing her family ancestry from Kiev to New York to Omaha and then Los Angeles, where she was born and raised up. At a UCLA fraternity party in the early 1940s, a teenage Joyce Rosenberg was swept off her feet by her older brother's friend Jerry Mack. Jerry was from Boulder City, Nevada and had attended school in Las Vegas. In 1946, the couple married and took an extended honeymoon throughout the United States and Cuba. Soon afterwards, Jerry's father Nate Mack, a businessman and real estate developer encouraged the newlyweds to come to Las Vegas. She tells of Jerry sharing his vision of the valley's future. Thus began a successful journey that traverses decades of Las Vegas history and breathtaking growth in which the Macks were active participants and leaders. Joyce recalls the people the first meant, who they raised their children side-by-side with and became lasting friends. These people were other Las Vegas pioneers including the Greenspuns and mostly importantly her husband's partnership with Parry Thomas which created the Bank of Las Vegas. It was their partnership she explains that reduced the presence of the mob element. As members of the small Jewish community of the late 1940s, the Macks would participate in the founding of Temple Beth Sholom.... iv TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Joyce Mack February 23, 2015 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Barbara Tabach Preface iv Talks about ancestral roots of her parents; came from Russian background, immigrated to New York then to Omaha and eventually to southern California. Tells about meeting, marrying and her romantic honeymoon with Jerry Mack; how her father-in-law had a vision of Las Vegas valley growth; how Jerry became partners with Parry Thomas and open a bank 1 - 10 Explains how Thomas and Mack business partnership changed Las Vegas business development; opening of the Thomas and Mack sports arena at UNLV; Coach Jerry Tarkanian and UNLV's NCAA basketball championships 11 - 15 Shares about friendships with Hank and Barbara Greenspun; being among founders of Temple Beth Sholom; close friendship with Parry Thomas, Mormon community; raising children in Las Vegas. Shopping for fashion in early Las Vegas versus today. Openings of the hotel/casinos; importance Jerry placed on ridding the city of criminal elements. Expectation of only being in Las Vegas for a short while 15 - 19 Talks about children attending UCLA; daughter Karen meeting future husband, Russell Goldsmith, in LA and being a movie producer and author; her daughter Marilyn, who points out changes in the neighborhood over the past fifty years. Talks about why she likes living in the central part of Las Vegas; neighbors she has enjoyed over the years 19 - 23 Reflects on how Jewish and Mormon business leaders built the city; how Nate Mack was the 'father' of Las Vegas development, came from Los Angeles; more about early leaders and neighbors. Anecdote about being a taster for Mars Candy and getting fired by Mr. Mars; Ethel M factory and cactus garden. Thoughts about why people retire to desert and her new boat and traveling 23 - 30 Talks about support of UNLV Law School, moot court building, Joyce Mack Professor of Law position. Acknowledges how Thomas' sons took real estate to next generation. Tells funny story about Jerry and Parry in cab driving past the arena. Mentions philanthropic involvement and recognitions (Planned Parenthood, UNLV Foundation). Hiring President Bill Clinton and later Hillary Clinton as speakers for fundraisers. More about synagogues, rabbis, cantors; current activities 30 - 42 v vi This is Barbara Tabach. Today is February 23rd, 2015. I'm sitting in the wonderful home of Joyce Mack. We're going to take a trip down memory lane. Let's see. So tell me what you know about your family heritage, where your grandparents, your parents' parents came from. My dad came from Russia, from Kiev. This was the 1800s. He was sixteen at the time he decided that he was just going to get on a boat and get out of there because?you know why? They were sending all the young men to the military, and so that's why all these young men wanted to get out of there. They didn't want to go in the Russian military, and so he got out. He landed at Ellis Island, of course. That's how he started. He did have a brother that was here already. Where was his brother living? His brother was in the Los Angeles area. So that's how he got there. So he landed in Ellis Island and then did travel immediately to the West Coast? No, he spent some time in New York and Omaha and gradually, gradually came to California. He thought that would be good; his brother was here, anyway, in California. So was that an older brother? Yes, that was an older brother. What kind of work was the older brother in? He had a very good job. He had a peanut business. It was called Nuts to You. And he sold to the military. So he had a really good job. He was giving out to the army and navy, all that. How interesting is that? So it was a good job. And then your father, did he join him in that business when he got there? 1 No, no. When he [Max Rosenberg] got there somehow or other he went into the fruit business because there was lots of fruit around at that time and he got a wagon. He went up and down with his wagon. He lived in Orange County. So then he heard that these other people had two beautiful daughters. So they sent him up to see Geordie, who was one of the daughters, and he liked Betty better than Geordie. [Laughing] So they were introduced. Anyway, they got married in the early years. And so Betty is your mom. Yes. How old were your parents when they got married, do you know? I'm always curious back then. She was fifteen. Young, huh? Oh, yes. And he was ten years older, I remember, she used to tell me. He was ten years older than she. But they fell in love and they wanted to get married. So they did and then she proceeded to have six children. wow. He worked in various jobs and earned some money, he went into the building business; my dad did. He built the first really gorgeous homes in Westwood. So residential building. Yes, residential. They're still there and we lived in one of the houses for a long time. But he would build these nice houses, move us in, and then somebody would come along and buy it and we'd have to move out. There's always, "Get your room really cleaned up; we've got people coming." I can hear that. [Laughing] So then he'd sell that at a good profit and so he was able 2 to move on. And where were you in that six-children family? In the middle. I had a brother five years older and a brother that was seven years younger than I was. So I was an only child there, right in the middle. Nobody knew about Depression, but that's what we were in. So what was it like to grow up in L.A. at that time, other than being uprooted all the time by your dad? I didn't know the difference. We always had a nice place to live, always, because he was always building these new houses and putting us in them. The schooling was very good. Yes, I didn't know the difference. Then I went to UCLA and that's where I met my husband. Now, was your mom born in california or was she from... ? She was born?somehow or other we haven't gotten this straightened out. She has lots of relatives in Omaha and we think that maybe she was born in Omaha. And her maiden name was? Silverstein. Being from the Midwest, I'm trying to think if I know any Silversteins that were from omaha. Yes, I bet there are some. Yes. So tell me about meeting your husband. About meeting my husband. I always pretended I was older than I was. I looked older, but I was sixteen. And I'd go to these fraternity parties at UCLA. Anyway, this friend of my older brother's came along and that was Jerry. He came to the house all the time. We always felt really sorry for him because he didn't have any parents down in Los Angeles; they lived in 3 Boulder City because that's where his dad moved during the Depression. So he'd come in and eat cold spaghetti out of the fridge. And we thought, oh, poor Jerry. Then he started asking me out and that's how that happened. And what were you studying at UCLA? Sociology, psychology. I bet you were in the right place. You were academically challenged and all of that. That's great. Yes. That was during the war. Because a lot of women weren't going to college at that time, were they? Well, I didn't even think about that. I thought they were, but at the time I went all the guys were in the military. They were either too old or too young. So that's what we would be singing that we needed some guys around our age. But that was the year just after the war. And what was Jerry studying? He could have been a lawyer. He knew so much about law. But he studied business; he graduated in the late 1940s. I forget what exact year he graduated in. We took all the pictures of him graduating. I never graduated because he wanted to get married right away and he decided that we were going to take our honeymoon right after our wedding. So I said, "Well, yes, that sounds interesting." So what we did...he had a two-month hiatus from his business and we traveled all over the United States including Cuba. That was so interesting because a day after we left, they bombed the capital with rifles. Oh, in Havana? Yes, in Havana. So we were glad we got out of there in time. But we didn't know from anything else. So that was it. Anyway, we took the little boat 4 back to Miami. Then we went on to New York, which we saw every important play that you could ever imagine. They were all playing at the time. We never thought in the world that they would kind of disappear. We thought this kind of a life would go on and on forever, but in my opinion, no plays have taken their place. Mostly they were musicals, all the musicals that you could think of were there at that time. Did you have a favorite one that you remember? Oh, yes. The one I loved was?well, Born Yesterday was playing, I think it was. That was so good. That wasn't a musical. And then I can't remember the rest...Carousel was another one. [Also Brigadoon, Finian 's Rainbow, Annie Get Your Gun and Oklahoma! ] Broadway is such a great experience. It was just wonderful. And then we came back and that was it. To Los Angeles. So Jerry took you on this really long honeymoon. Yes, yes. He had a red convertible and I loved that car. That was just so...I'd go riding around, driving. He'd let me drive it. I had a beautiful great big diamond and I'd ride like this [demonstrating] with my diamond showing. (At least I thought it was big.) So it was pretty nice. Tell me what you remember about your wedding. Mostly my mother [Betty Silverstein Rosenberg] I remember. She dragged me from store to store because in those days when the girls got married they had a beautiful trousseau. These girls now don't even know what that word means. No, they don't. Well, I got everything beautiful in those stores. She even gave me an ermine coat, if you can imagine. 5 So anyway, we started to drive off in our little convertible. We had stopped at Palms Springs first. So we stopped at Palms Springs and I had all these clothes. Jerry looks at it and he says, "We will never manage with that many." So we had to unpack everything and cut in half what I could bring. He fit everything in the car. My mom was so great. She managed that family and she kept herself very busy all the time because every night she had eight at the table at least, maybe more because the boys would always bring in friends. She'd burst in that door at six p.m. with packages of food and everything. We did have one lady that helped us. We named her Crazy Mary, because she was kind of crazy. She helped, but my mother managed everything. I always thought we always had beautiful things in our homes. In the living room we had these beautiful Persian rugs. In my father's [Max Rosenberg] den there was this turquoise Persian rug. It was just beautiful. I'm thinking, what does a fifteen-year-oldgirl...how does she know about all this? I never figured it out, where she learned this from. She was so young when they married. Yes. But she learned quickly. She made a nice home. Beautiful. Now, did you grow up in a real observant Jewish home? No, not especially, although my dad helped to build the first temple down there in Westwood. What was the name of that temple, do you remember? No, I can't remember. ... ...So tell me about, how did you two get from living in L.A. to living in Las Vegas? You said you came here in 1947? Yes. He had driven me up to Las Vegas just to see because the...which hotel was it that was opening? The Flamingo Hotel was opening at that time. That's the time of Bugsy Siegel and all 6 that which followed. Jerry's dad [Nate Mack] had moved to Boulder City. The Boulder Dam was the only payroll in the United States and he figured he's going to go where there's some opportunities to earn money. And so what he did was he opened up?this is Jerry's dad; his name was Nate, Nate Mack?he opened up a lot where they sold parts of cars. Jerry learned how to build a car. He built himself a little car. He was a kid. He was a little boy. They brought him to Vegas when he was seven or eight years old. So he grew up in Boulder City and then went to Las Vegas High School and he had to ride on a bus thirty miles every day there and back. wow. His dad was doing very, very well with his auto parts; call it a junkyard, whatever. He kept buying property. I mean property costs were negligible; all very, very low, a dollar an acre or something like that. So anyway, Jerry at this time probably had built a little house?no, it was a pretty good-size house. I had two babies at that time. Jerry comes in. And his dad had called him and Jerry meantime said, "Oh, good, I'm glad you called because I'm just about to buy some big property here that I will take care of, subdivide." And his dad says, "Now, wait a minute... I've got so much property here. I would love for you and Joyce to come up for a year or so and develop some of this property because I've got it and it would be great." He says, "Well, I'll ask Joyce." So he said, "We just moved into the house with the babies." He said, "Well, I'll ask her." So he asked me and I said, "Sure." What did I know? I'm twenty-two-years old. So we moved to Las Vegas at that time. His dad had moved down from Boulder City and moved down here to Las Vegas. His family was so glad to have me and Jerry around. So he could start subdividing the property. 7 At the time, I'm looking out at all the property around. His dad took me for a little ride and we were sort of up on a hill. And he says, "Honey, I want you to look down and tell me what you see." I said, "I don't see anything except cactus and nothing. I see nothing." He said, "Well, I'll tell you what I see." He says, "I see a town there, a city there. There's going to be churches. There's going to be houses. There's going to be stores. Wherever you look you're going to see this is going to be filled up with civilization, with people." Wow. And Nate is saying this? Nate. Very, very wise guy. Really. He had a great vision about what was possible. Unbelievable vision. So I went home and I told Jerry what he had said. He said, "Well, Dad's a pretty smart guy. I'd listen to him if I were you." So anyway, he went ahead and started...first of all, just to get a job, he went down to Benny Binion's place and they kicked him out because he knew nothing about gambling. [Laughing] Knew nothing. They had him counting the boxes. So they found out very quickly that never mind he's Nate Mack's son, he doesn't know about gambling. So that's when he went into the building business and did a lot of subdividing. So he got into what he was comfortable with. Well, he knew about it because he had been helping my brothers build houses. They were building big tracts of houses in Los Angeles at that time. So what was the first development that he did? Where was that? Wherever you look, all around here. All around, okay. You ever hear of Karen Boulevard? That's after my daughter. That's named after her. Barbara Way is named after another daughter. 8 I always want to know where the street names come from. There you go. From the kids. So Karen and Barbara and what other streets? This is when I met was my good friend Barbara Greenspun and she became a lifetime friend of mine. And I was so sorry when I lost her because my kids and her kids?they are just like brothers and sisters. Still are to this day. But the only thing?so many of the founders of the town are gone. So what was it like to be young friends at that time? Did you make friends with them right away? Yes. Almost the first day. I think my oldest daughter, who was going to be two at that time, it was her birthday. So I wanted to give her a birthday party. I had met this Barbara and I found out she had a bunch of kids, and I invited her. We have home movies of all the Greenspuns growing ups. It's so cute. Yes, they all came over for the birthday party. They all grew up together. I didn't tell you a vital part of this story. Now, Jerry's dad was here in Las Vegas and with a lot of property. And at that time they had decided, this group of men that Las Vegas needed a good bank. So they decided that they needed somebody who knew the banking business. So somebody told them that there's one guy up in Salt Lake City. And one of the men said he knew a great person who really knows the banking business because these group of men did not know that; they just realized that this town needed a bank. And so they brought down a few young men who had been working in banks up in Salt Lake City. Nate met them and liked them, liked one especially and that was a young man named Parry. He said to Jerry, "You know I like this kid named Parry?Parry Thomas is his name. He would be a good partner for you." 9 He said, "I think that would be nice because he knows the banking business. We're opening up this bank." In addition, Nate had this whole big plot of land and he gave Jerry half and Parry half just like that. He thought, "Jerry, this is a good partner for you. I've just got a feeling about this." And Jerry said, "Okay. If that's what you want to do, it's okay with me. It's just barren land." So he gave Parry that to start with so he'd have something maybe to sell and to support his family. His family was tiny at that time just like mine was. Anyway, Parry and Jerry decided they needed an office; someplace where they could do this banking business. They opened a little office, Parry and Jerry, with desks right next to each other where the theater is downtown here. So they started a bank and they were hiring people to work in it. Everyone liked both of them because they figured these are two guys that are honest. They have no reason not to be. They have everything. And so the little society that was here all started putting their money into this bank. They had a very good reception from everybody here. So that's how they started. So then our families?the Thomases and the Macks?got together and our families are just like brother and sister, just like with the Greenspuns. It was very nice because we had just a couple of hotels that were open, two or three. The difference was that they would loan money to the hotels; other banks did not want to loan to casinos. That's how a lot of these hotels started was from the support of that bank. What did you think about that whole development of the gaming industry? Do you have any recollections as a young person? I mean, it was not something you were accustomed to. We had the best time. We would go visit these hotels and that was at the time when Bugsy was there. Anyway, both of them -Parry and Jerry helped clean up the town and get rid of that 10 element. That was very important. Oh, really? Yes, they did. I can't tell you how they did it, but they did it. They changed the law so corporations could own casinos which chased out the mob. But during that time before Bugsy was killed, his hotel was still going. Of course, he was killed right away. Somebody else took over the hotels. Those old casinos were so elegant. It was so nice. They'd have the orchestra and the dancing and multitude of stars that you could mention were there. They would get them to do their shows. They'd have a show and then they'd have dancing and then everybody in the audience got up and danced on the stage. It was so nice. We'd all dress so pretty. We all had these flowing little dresses on. We just loved that. So there wasn't anything negative about what we were thinking about Las Vegas. The only thing that wasn't so nice was Las Vegas had this reputation of these bad guys here, organized crime. And if I'd go out of town or something and meet strangers and they'd say, "Where you're from?" I'd say, "I'm from Las Vegas." I had some people that actually turned their back on me and wouldn't even talk to me. They'd walk away. Just because you were from Las Vegas? Yes, yes. And that hurt a little bit. I says, "Well, they're ignorant; they don't know what they're doing or what they're saying." But we did have that kind of thing. So do you think that they were assuming that everybody from Las Vegas? Yes, yes. ?was part of some sort of criminal? Underground, yes. Criminals, yes. But luckily, getting that element out of here was so 11 important to everything and that's how the hotels really sparked off. They could really get going. Because of the Bank of Las Vegas they all had a good start. They had money. The Desert Inn was built. Of course, there was sometimes a little element of those guys. But sometimes they were law abiding citizens and there was little crime in Las Vegas. Did you ever hear of that? I've heard that; didn't know if it was true or not. Yes. There was very little crime. All the underground guys, they were scared to death. They wouldn't come here. Everyone knew they had to get the mob out of here. Some of them tried to become part owners of some of the hotels, which they did. The Riviera had this owner that wasn't so great. Gradually, gradually, they chased them all out. Did you have a favorite place to go to of the Strip locations? Well, the Desert Inn was very nice. The Riviera was very, very elegant. We loved that. In fact, I gave some of the weddings of the girls in these hotels, beautiful weddings. Now, the Riviera is going to be? Smashed to nothing. ?smashed--right. One more bites the dust, so to speak. We had the opening of the Thomas and Mack. Talk about that. That was fantastic. Somehow between government funds and donations, we got that building up. Then they had a big, big opening. It was going to be called Thomas and Mack because we had given them all the land to put this up and some of the money, also. So that went up. And the opening was such an affair. I can see it to this day. The arena was just filled with people, filled with movie stars, which you can't imagine. The whole Rat Pack was there. Frank Sinatra and that whole group were there and they performed. They were terrific, absolutely terrific. Coming 12 down one aisle they had Parry and they gave him a great big white cowboy hat to wear and coming down another aisle was Jerry and he also had a hat. So there's a big to-do about them marching down the aisle; Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Diana Ross. Then they sat down to watch the show, which was terrific. You must have been quite proud that you were able to? Very proud, yes. I should say. The community was very involved in the center All our basketball games have been a big part of our lives. We'd go there. Sometimes we'd even go with the teams. And then later on when Tark [Jerry Tarkanian] took over the teams that was a really big spark?a boost. We're still well-known because of him and because of winning the NCAA championships four times. I remember Elaine Wynn?they had a plane at the time and she took us to the finish, one of the last games. And so we were all so excited. She invited us to go in the plane with them. So we all went up there, saw the game, and we lost. That was one of the games that we lost. You should've seen the difference between when we went up there and we came back. [Laughing] And you still had good memories of that. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And the passing of Coach Tarkanian recently is so sad. It's so sad. He lasted a long time and he went down...I think he had the trouble by giving his boys too much attention. They had this one picture, one picture that hit the newspaper and that's of Tark sitting in a Jacuzzi with all his basketball players and that was like really bad news. Elaine Wynn, she's one of them that got rid of Tark. We were so upset about it. They just didn't understand what he was trying to do. Yes. That was terrible. But anyway, we got through that and he became very famous. He kept 13 winning these campaigns. Now to this day his people still know him. They still remember. They have a street named after him now. We went to the game, my husband and I, last week where everybody wore black as part of the memorial. They did a nice video of him and then darkened the Strip. Yes. That's very nice. I guess it's only the eighth time that they've ever done that. That's quite an honor. I would say, yes. He would have loved it. Too bad he wasn't here to see that. I didn't live here then, but people would talk about going to the Thomas and Mack and going to the basketball games and the energy that would be in that facility was just very cool. Good memories. It was. It was wonderful. Anyway, we enjoyed that. So you've been really involved?we'll just keep on the UNLV topic. You've been very involved with UNLV. Oh, yes, because that was all our property. I'll tell you how we found the property. I told you his dad kept buying up this property so that he had a lot and especially all around. So he was out looking for another spot to put up another bank. Our bank was doing pretty good, and so he was looking around. And all of a sudden he noticed that this one building...oh, what is that building? They're trying to make a university out of it, this guy that was with him. And Jerry says, "With one building? They're making...? What kind of thing is that?" He said, "Well, that's all they've got. That's all they've got." So he gave them all the property for the university. He gave it so at one time they could give some back, but they put all their initials on all the money that they had gave them to put some more buildings there. That's how UNLV started. Ah. And at that time it wasn't called University of Nevada, right? Was it Southern?I 14 always forget. It started out something else. Maybe it was. I don't remember what it was. But that's interesting how just like out of the desert you started making a city and making it a better community. Yes. I tell you I feel very lucky that I was here. How many people have seen a city grow up under their eyes? From nothing to all of a sudden these tall buildings. I can hardly see my way around anymore. They're all smashed down to nothing and new buildings are going up. Thank goodness, we never had a depression here. This is the first time where Las Vegas has had a depression. There's no rhyme or reason for it, but we did. But we're just coming out of it now. You walk down the streets and you'd think it's New Year's Eve. There's so many people. This is the living end of the best vacation they could have and that's why they come here. Yes, yes. There's no other city like this. No matter which ones that they had tried to build, another Las Vegas, it's never worked. I'm just sitting here. You're part of the fiber that grew this city. You're part of the framework. So you talk about some of the people that...you mentioned you Greenspuns. Talk about the Greenspuns, the young Greenspuns. What were they like to have as friends? Oh, just wonderful, just wonderful. We'd all go to the same kind of social events. You'd just feel like you had relatives. We were all so close, all of us, because we were all doing the same thing. We were here trying to build this town up. Well, Hank Greenspun did all Summerlin. I claim this way. He had bought huge amounts of property, also. He was able to do that. We just loved having them. The kids are still so very close to all of them. 15 What were some of the things that Barbara Greenspun got involved in, or as wives did you do certain things together? She was the social girl. Oh, my god, she was gorgeous. She had this one gown that was all gold. It was a golden gown. I guess it had gold sparkles or something all through it. She was just the best dressed person. We didn't dress like that. She wouldn't mind just spending whatever they had. When they had nothing she was still buying all these gorgeous clothes. She was very social. She was in a lot of these committees. We were all on the temple, trying to do things for the temple. And that would be Temple Beth Sholom? Yes. That was our first temple. We were in one of the churches first of all. Jerry's dad, he got ten men together to start the temple. We went from a church to some kind of...I forget, but it was a plain building and started the temple that way. And the Jewish community at that time, was there a sense of community? No, there was nothing. Nothing, okay. We were just trying to get members for the temple because a lot of them had the background from New York and they missed having a temple, someplace to go and a rabbi. But it was tumultuous trying to get that temple going because everybody...they say if you've got ten Jews, you've got ten of them that want a different temple. So it was?oh, they got so aggravated. They were all on the board and they'd come back just, "Ugh, I can't deal with those people. They're so goddamn stupid, ugh." But they kept trying. Hank was very close with Jerry, very, very close. So eventually they got it started. 16 They eventually got it started, yes. Who was the first president of the temple? I'm sure we've got that written down. Do you remember? Maybe so. I don't know. If they did, they chose him. [Laughing] Now, was your husband ever president of the... Yes, yes, a few years, and so was Hank. I think he was. In the meantime, Parry got very close with all the Mormon people. They had opened all these Mormon schools. My kids even when they were little went to some of the Mormon classes. When