Interview with Marie Elizabeth (Stever; Daly) McMillan, February 4, 2004

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with Marie McMillan February 2, 2004 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Mary Palevsky © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Marie McMillan February 4, 2004 Conducted by Mary Palevsky Table of Contents Introduction: Mrs. McMillan recalls her childhood in southern California and her education at the University of California- Berkeley. 1 Mrs. McMillan discusses her marriage to electrical engineer Elijah J. “ Duke” Daly. Upon returning from World War II, Mr. Daly took a variety of jobs before going to work with Luis Alvarez at the University of California at Berkeley. 5 Mrs. McMillan narrates a series of personal photographs related to nuclear testing in the Pacific and at the Nevada Test Site, including pictures of Luis Alvarez, Herbert York, Ernest O. Lawrence, and Harold E. Brown. 8 More photographs illustrate Mr. Daly’s experiences with electronics experiments at the Livermore laboratory. 11 Mrs. McMillan discusses secrecy concerns related to nuclear testing. 15 Mrs. McMillan narrates a collection of souvenirs from several early nuclear tests in the Pacific and the Nevada Test Site. 16 Mr. Daly moves from Livermore to the Nevada Test Site to work for EG& G. 20 Mrs. McMillan describes her role in controlling sensitive documents as an employee of the University of California Radiation Laboratory. 21 Mr. Daly’s involvement in the Pacific testing program takes the family to Hawaii. Mrs. McMillan describes living near Waikiki Beach and shares memories of testing at the Pacific Proving Grounds. 21 Mrs. McMillan worked with sensitive documents at the Livermore laboratory and the Nevada Test Site. She describes secrecy and security concerns, as well as her experiences hosting visiting French scientists at the Nevada Test Site. 27 Conclusion: Mrs. McMillan narrates a series of photographs and mementos from various nuclear tests, including test participation certificates, lists of operations, and other items. 34 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Marie McMillan February 4, 2004 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Mary Palevsky [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 1, Disk 1. Mary Palevsky: [ 00: 02: 16] Now I know we want to get to lab stories and Livermore stories and NTS [ Nevada Test Site] stories, but before we do I’d like to talk a little bit about your past and where you came from and where you were born and if you feel like telling us when you were born, so we get a sense of how you ended up in the position to be involved in this early nuclear history. Marie McMillan: All right. So you were born where? Well, it’s no secret. I was born in California, actually in Exeter, California, which is in the center of the San Joaquin Valley. It’s a little, small town southeast of Fresno, California. Actually it’s near another small town called Orange Cove. It used to be a very, very— actually a rich little town where there were lots of orange groves. And my father was in— actually when I was born he managed an ice plant and later on he became a refrigeration engineer. So when refrigeration came in to, you know, the mode, he was a refrigeration engineer, and instead of making ice to put on the trains to ship the fruit and the oranges to the East Coast, it became refrigeration. And I was born in 1926; it’s no secret. When I was very young and my father was a refrigeration engineer, he was involved— because he had come from Missouri— he knew a lot [ 00: 05: 00] about cattle and meat, and he put in a meat market in Carmel, California. So actually I grew up in Carmel, California where my father had a meat market and later he added a grocery store and then he later had a meat market and grocery store in Salinas, California. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 Amazing. Let’s see, what else did you ask me? You know, it’s so interesting what you said about refrigeration, because it reminds me of that thing from East of Eden where they’re refrigerating the lettuce to get it across the country. Yes, yes. I can remember when I was a little girl riding from Carmel in my daddy’s truck to Salinas and we’d pass the lettuce fields and all of those— the places that you’re talking about like the lettuce, East of Eden- kind of places. Right. It must have been amazing there then, I mean compared to now. Yes. And Carmel was a wonderful place to grow up because at that time we had no high school. We had only a grammar school with a big slate roof. And we had the best of I can’t think of the name, entertainers, such as I can remember, who was the man…? Yes, they came from all over the world. Actually the violinist, I can’t think of his name right now but he was a world- class violinist, and we had people like that. Oh, Jascha Heifetz and people like that. And that’s it! Exactly. That was it, Mary, yes. Wow. Because Carmel is so beautiful. Oh yes. It is very beautiful. And we lived very close to the church where Father Junípero Serra is buried. Yes. Is it one of the missions? Yes, it’s one of the missions. Oh it’s the mission, Our Lady of Carmel, yes. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 Yes, Carmel. That’s where Father Junípero Serra is buried. Yes. And I sang there in the children’s choir. Yes, I’ve been there. Yes. And we lived in a log house, a beautiful two- story log house, and it was really different. My parents had the architect, Carl Bensberg, design and build it. Do you have brothers and sisters or—? I have two brothers. I’m the oldest in the family and my brother Jim just died a few months ago from cancer. I’m sorry. And my younger brother Bob lives in Sanger, California. Where’s Sanger? Sanger is right outside of Fresno. OK. Yes. So a Californian born and bred? That’s right. Now you mentioned that you were at UC Berkeley originally? That’s right. Did your parents— I mean was education something that they wanted for you or something that you wanted or how did that work? No. Well, let me tell you about that. It’s always been a concern to me because during the war we moved then up to the San Francisco Bay area. We lived actually between San Leandro and Hayward, and I went to Hayward High School. And my parents talked about education and going to school. They were very good in the fact that they told me I could be anything I wanted to be— that girls could do that, but they were never eager to help me. And you know, as I look UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 back on it now, Mary, I guess they did the right thing but I can see that it made a big, big difference in my life of what I could’ve done had they helped me, because they never, ever offered to pay my way any way. So when I went to University of California in Berkeley they would not let me stay up on the campus. I always wanted to live at the International House but they said well, if I wanted to live there I’d have to pay my own way. And so I was never able to find a job at that age that I could pay my own way and live away from home. So actually I can remember how much it cost me my first semester at University of California in Berkeley. It was $ 18.75 for one semester. [ 00: 10: 00] And you remember that. That’s amazing. Yes. I saved the receipt for years. It’s probably still around here somewhere. For that receipt. So what you’re saying— am I understanding you correctly? You���re saying if they had been willing to support you, you would’ve been free maybe to do something more with your education. Yes. That’s correct. I would’ve finished, because I only went there actually a year- and- a- half. This was during wartime and they did, they did help me. One thing they did help me do, they paid for my transportation. I rode back and forth with a professor of optometry from Hayward, and he would pick me up each morning and I’d go to Berkeley with him and ride home with him at night. They did pay for that, which I can thank them. But I was always anxious to work. I had always worked, babysat and did…. We lived for a while in Campbell, California before moving to the Bay Area and then I was an apricot cutter, I cut apricots, we called it “ cot cutter.” Do you know what that is? No. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 Well, they pick apricots off the tree, put them in boxes, and take them to the “ cot cutter” area, and you cut them in half, take out the pit, put them on a big tray, it’s called a “ cot” tray, and then they’re put in not an oven but a big room that’s like a sulfur room so it kills all the bugs and— And it dries them. And it dries them, yes. I love those apricots. And do you know, I think I still have my knife that I had, and I had to pay thirty- five cents for it, which was a great amount of money in those days. Right. Wow. You know, I’m going to pause this for a second. [ 00: 12: 19] End Track 1, Disk 1. [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disk 1. OK, we can keep going. All right. So actually to get to how I married Daly— Now you told me it was Duke Daly. Yes. But was that his real or his nickname? No, that was his nickname. His official name was Elisha Junius Daly. He was born in the capital of California, Sacramento, and his father was a prominent attorney who represented many Chinese people. And his father came from a long line of very educated sons; his father came from a very prominent Daly family of which I believe they had seven or eight boys, and he was the youngest. And he graduated from Stanford University with Herbert Hoover. And so actually the background of how I got into the atomic testing is through— Elisha Junius Daly, “ Duke.” His birth certificate was spelled wrong and was spelled Elisha Junior Daly instead of Junius. But all UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 of his friends always called him Duke and that’s what he was always known as in Berkeley and all over. Do you think this is the same Daly of Daly City or no, I’m making connections? I don’t know. I do not know. It seems to me that I would know something about it had it been, but I don’t know. OK. I first met Duke Daly in high school when we were sophomores. He was the new boy coming to school, and he sat in the back of the geometry class, and he’d lived out in the country with his sister, and of course this was during wartime. And he would drive a car to and from school and he offered me a ride, and after I’d known him only a few weeks he told me that I was the girl that he was going to marry. And I thought, oh, I’ll never marry this fellow, and you know it ended up that I did. Why did you think you’ll never marry this fellow, do you remember? Oh, I don’t know. I wasn’t ready to think about marring anyone at that time. Too young. I was too young and I just didn’t think he was my type. First of all, he was a brilliant man. He was a brilliant boy and actually I didn’t see him anymore until when we moved to the Bay Area he came to see me and he had joined the maritime service. He enlisted in the maritime service and studied to become a radio officer and he never, ever finished high school. [ The maritime service sent him to Radio Officer’s School in New York. It was on Hoffman Island, Stanton Island. He graduated as a lieutenant radio officer. They wore many officer’s uniforms. He was very handsome in that uniform!] And actually I have a lot to tell you about that but I think maybe now isn’t the time to do it because well— UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 It’s your choice. OK, can you turn this off? Sure, oh sure, let me pause it for you. [ 00: 03: 35] End Track 2, Disk 1. [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 3, Disk 1. I married him. Yes, you married Duke Daly. I married Duke Daly and of course he had to go back to sea and when the war was first announced to be over, his ship was the first to bring back a commercial cargo load to the United States, as he was in the Philippines at that time. And they brought home a load of copra for Proctor and Gamble. They used copra as a product from coconuts to make soap, and Proctor and Gamble wanted this product to make soap. At that time, while he was in the Philippines— since he was a radio operator— he sent me the first commercial telegram from World War II that he was coming in to Los Angeles— well, not Los Angeles actually, it was Long Beach, California, San Pedro Bay. So I went down to meet him in Long Beach, California. But this is how we get connected to the University of California. It was very difficult to find jobs at that time, so when he was out of the service he could not find a job. It was very difficult to find a job as a radio operator actually. And so he signed on board ship again to go coast- wise from the coastline of California up north to Oregon and Washington. When he got up there he found that the ship was going around the world, so he did not want to be away from home that long so he got off the ship and came home. The next job that he found was with Pan American World Airways. And they were looking for a radio operator in charge to put in a radio station on Wake Island, which at that time Pan American Airways was the only carrier to go around the world. They needed a radio UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 station on Wake Island so they would have some connection between San Francisco and Tokyo. I believe they flew into Tokyo, and the Orient. Somewhere in the Orient? Somewhere in the Orient. So he worked for Pan American Airways. He put in a radio station for them on Wake Island. When he got back from Wake Island, of course things were going from electrical engineering— as I said he was brilliant— things were going to electronics at that time. So he found there was a job opening up on the hill in Berkeley, California at the University of California up on the hill in Berkeley. And that is where he worked, at the electrical engineering department, and that’s where he met the scientists that he knew. At one time, I can remember he and Luis Alvarez put together— they were doing— I don’t know how to explain it. They were doing some sort of electronics to guide airplanes in, something like we have now, ILS system, instrument landing system that we use. And I can remember driving down there to pick him up. He would go to work at the laboratory up in Berkeley and then he would go down to the Oakland airport with Luis Alvarez and they’d do whatever they were doing, experimenting or doing whatever they were doing, and then I can remember going to pick him up at the airport. Amazing. Yes, it is. I would like to show you a couple of pictures during the time that he first went to work at [ 00: 05: 00] the University of California up on the hill. It’s some old picture, I think it was taken about 1947. [ I also have another picture taken of the maritime officers taking shipboard training on Santa Catalina Island in Avalon Bay. That island was owned by the Wrigley Gum Co. and loaned to the U. S. Maritime service for training during Word War II.] Great. Let’s do that. I’ll pause while you get them and then maybe we’ll talk about them. [ 00: 05: 16] End Track 3, Disk 1. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 4, Disk 1. [ This section of the interview includes identifications of photos from Marie McMillan’s collection.] So the man who is second from the right, kneeling, is Duke Daly. [ M. McMillan1] That’s correct. And this is 1947. That’s correct. Great. OK. Now wait, there’s another picture here that I want to show you that was taken on the hill in Berkeley, that picture I showed you. [ M. Millan2] OK, good to know. Let me get out of your way. Now this is not only the electrical engineering department but this is a picture of different people. This is Herb York. There’s Herb York. And this is my husband. And this is Ernest O. Lawrence. This is a fabulous picture. I’ve forgotten these names. The only ones that I really knew that went out— only a few then went out from this picture— when they started the lab in Livermore. Right. We could probably— So this is Herb and that’s my husband and that’s Dr. Lawrence. There’s Lawrence. And yes, I bet if we copied this and blew it up a little bit, people would— oh look, you’ve got historic stuff here. Oh, do I? My goodness. OK, then after they went out there, this is— UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 Now let’s just remember— what do you think this year was, of this picture? Oh well, it was before Livermore. It was just before Livermore, so it was— I thought Livermore was 1952. I think so. And you said something about 1951. The test site, yes, but Livermore— But it might be that they started it and I think my husband went out there in 1952. That’s why I remember—. Right. I think that that’s right. OK, so that’s around that era. Well no, maybe here. Here I’ve got this. Here’s stuff from Enewetak. Yes, well that’s— Oh my goodness, Marie, you’ve got this Atomic Energy Commission Nevada Proving Grounds, 1953 [ badge] of your husband’s. Amazing. [ M. Millan3a, 3b] Where is that one— this one from Enewetak I wanted to show you. I didn’t realize it was 1951. I didn’t realize they went out there before—[ M. Millan4] They went out there before the lab was— they did some stuff through Los Alamos before the lab. Oh, OK, well here, you’ve got it, there it is. And this is Enewetak. This is Enewetak atoll. Oh my gosh, and look, you���ve got a list. And there’s Herb [ York]. [ M. McMillan4, 3rd row, second from left] UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 Right, and Herb talked to me about Hugh Bradner [ M. Millan4, 1st row, second from left] when I saw him a couple of weeks ago. Really? Yes. And this is my husband [ M. Millan4, 2nd row far right]. Yes. And Harold Brown [ M. Millan4, 2nd row, second from right]. Oh yes, Harold E. Brown. There were two Harold Browns. Oh, OK. All right. See, I didn’t know that. That’s Dan Murphy [ M. Millan4, 4th row, third from left]. Let’s see, I’ve got Dr. Herb York [ M. Millan4, 3rd row, second from left]. Yes, I’ve got, well, all the ones that I knew, well, not all of them but— Yes, you’ve got the names. This is fabulous. And aside from working with Luis Alvarez, what I wanted to tell you was he and Ross Aiken got together and they developed a—[ pause when someone enters room] [ 00: 04: 01] End Track 4, Disk 1. [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 5, Disk 1. OK, so go ahead. So you worked with— Aside from working with Luis Alvarez on the instrument landing system, he and Ross Aiken got together and they— my husband was an expert in tubes and they developed a special kind of a tube— at that time television was in its infancy and he developed a kind of a tube that had the [ electronic] gun go to the side of the tube instead of the back. Because the tube at that time is like a [ light bulb]. If you can imagine a light bulb as a tube, what kept it from getting very, very large was the neck in back of it, so as the tube got larger and larger the neck would go back further and further. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 Right. [ 00: 01: 12] End Track 5, Disk 1. [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 6, Disk 1. [ It] was only three or four or five inches thick, so you could make it as large as you wanted, like we have now. Of course this was in the 1940s. So the size wasn’t controlled by the fact that it had to go in the back? That’s correct. It could come in the side. How clever. Yes, the electrons could go in the side and scan the picture instead of coming from the back. So he and Ross demonstrated that tube— I don’t know if they called it a “ tube” actually; I don’t remember but they showed it— to lots of different companies such as Westinghouse, Sylvania, Zenith, RCA, and all the companies that made electrical— Like GE or something like that? That’s correct. That’s exactly right. Yes, or Philips, it was probably back in those days too. Yes, exactly. Yes. And so they sold that, and of course my husband did all the work. That’s what he did up at the laboratory, I guess, as you probably know. And so he changed from electrical engineering. I guess they did electronics then. But don’t forget, he did all of these experimental things and he only had a high school degree actually along with his radio engineering training. Amazing. And actually when he went to Livermore he took a test at San Jose State College. And they would only accept him— you know— he had to take all these battery of tests. And when he took UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 the battery of tests he went way past the required tests wanted. The said that he “ rang the gong.” So actually, he ended up— he really never had a degree— but he did all of these exotic things. Well, I think that that’s interesting and I think that he certainly is among very few people that did that, but that was also an era where there was so much new stuff going on that if you were an experimenter and you were brilliant like your husband was, you just did it and no one was saying to you, ��� Where’s your Ph. D.?” Yes, exactly. Amazing. Exactly. So he was actually in charge of all of these electronic things that they did. Of course Herb [ York] was in charge of the laboratory. And he was in charge of all the things that they did because he knew all about radio and, you know, that. That’s how he— Oh, this is Ross Aiken [ M. Millan4, 1st row, fourth from right]. OK, that’s Ross Aiken. I think this is Hugh Bradner. And this is Walter Gibbins [ M. Millan4, 3rd row, far left]. And I don’t— Well, when we organize this we can do a nice little labeling thing. Probably. Yes, you’ve got it all there. Looks like two versions of it [ this list identifying persons in photograph M. McMillan4] . Yes. I bet Herb [ York] would be interested in seeing these pictures. Well, I was wondering if they showed you any pictures like this. No. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 They didn’t have any. I think there were very few of these pictures actually. Yes. Maybe we can get him a copy. Yes, he probably would like that. I was wondering and then if he said anything about my husband because they were, you know— [ Mary Palevsky had met Marie McMillan at UNLV shortly before interviewing Herbert F. York in La Jolla in January, 2004. Before turning on the recorder, she had told Marie McMillan about telling Herb and Sybil York that she had met Marie McMillan] No, just that he remembered them and they [ the Yorks] remembered you and they just couldn’t believe that we’d run into each other like we did. I don’t see how they could remember me because I did nothing at that time. They did though. Sybil did. Well, that’s because we were in Livermore and everybody in Livermore knew everybody else. This picture [ showing M. Millan2]. Yes. You asked when— this picture was probably ’ 50 or ’ 51. Probably, yes. See, at that time I didn’t know to put— To put the dates on the newspaper. I’m the same. I have things that I didn’t know to do that. I’ve learned since. This is probably very unusual to have this old pass from— this is ’ 53. This is really great that you have that. And of course these are—[ newspaper articles]. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 These now, at that time I lived in San Leandro and when I knew there was going to be a test I would get up on the balcony and I could see the test from California when they [ were detonated]. You could. Yes. [ 00: 05: 00] Wow. And so there wasn’t an issue of secrecy. You would know that there was going to be a test? Oh yes. Yes, there was an issue of secrecy, but I didn’t tell anybody that I knew. When my husband would travel there, I knew they were going to do something. And he would say, Well, why don’t you get up early, you know, in the morning. And I would go out there and see it. And then I cut out all the things in the paper, as you can see. Wow. [ 00: 05: 22] This is all falling apart [ newspaper clippings in scrap book]. Look at this. This is amazing. There’s Duane Sewell. Yes. I’m going to go to Livermore in May. I hope he’ll talk to me. Yes. So anyway, let’s see, those three pictures I knew you would like. Yes, I’m very happy to see them. But I have lots of others, pictures and things from way back, say ’ 55. I could see, you know, things like this. And what newspaper is this? Probably the Oakland Tribune. See, this is fabulous, Marie, because we have a lot of stuff from Nevada but we would like this. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 Yes. This is from Oakland. Look, “ The biggest shot to be fired in the present Nevada atomic test was [ inaudible word of quote due to newspaper rattling] in San Francisco. This picture taken from the top of an apartment building at Clay and Jones.” [ 00: 06: 33] End Track 6, Disk 1. [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 7, Disk 1. OK, so this is a certificate from Operation Teapot. [ M. McMillan5] Yes. Alvin Graves. I find this unusual. Alvin Graves was a scientific advisor in Operation Teapot. And when my husband finally— actually he was on all of these operations from the first. I think he and Herb [ York] were in the same number of operations because I’ve got the— for Operation Redwing I have the VIP book. And it’s the key personnel for Task Group 7.1 [ M. McMillan6]. And actually EG& G always wanted him to go to work for them, you see. That’s how he knew all these people out at the test site, and he traveled a lot because he would go back and forth from Livermore to the Nevada Test Site, back to Livermore, and then to the Pacific— Enewetak and Bikini atolls, then back to Livermore. And then he knew Herb Grier and Barney O’Keefe and Doc [ Harold] Edgerton, then he would make trips. He would have to go to, where was it? Not Brookhaven, where EG& G’s office was, in Boston. It was in Boston. He would go to Massachusetts. And they wanted him to come to work for them, so after a while he decided to go to work for Edgerton, Germeshausen, and Grier. I didn’t know that. And that’s when we moved to Las Vegas. That’s how you got here. OK, we’ve got to how you got to Las Vegas. Amazing. So they wooed him and— UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 17 They wooed him and he was— I was just talking on the phone to my son Jack. I used to have a card of his from Edgerton, Germeshausen, and Grier. I cannot find it, but Jack, my son, says that he had one because he said he asked for one because at school they were always asking what his father did and he would say well, he couldn’t say. He would only put down what’s on the card: “ Senior Scientific Executive.” Here, I was looking at here— So your son knew that he couldn’t say. Oh yes, no one could ever say anything when they worked out there. And actually some other place, in the back of this book or some other place, they have— look. Look at this. [ M. McMillan7] United Airlines Passenger List, January 26, 1956]. “ DC- 7 goes from—.” Well, there were only three passengers on board. I thought that was strange. That’s amazing. Look at all the crew and then the three of them. And this is for getting out to one of the islands, I guess? No, it’s from San Francisco to Hawaii. And then they had, I think, military aircraft to go out to Enewetak and Bikini. OK. OK. That’s one thing that I still would like to do. I want to go to Enewetak and Bikini atolls. I understand you can go there now. I would love to go there. That would be an interesting thing to do. And here’s another one from the airlines. Amazing. [ M. Millan8]. Yes, they used to give those to you. Well, so there are a lot of memorable things in here. Absolutely. And this is very interesting. I thought you would like to see this. Look at this. This has— well, here, I have it on here— UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 18 So this still says “ UC Radiation Lab— UCRL.” Yes, well that’s how they— That’s how it started? That’s what it was in that time. That’s right. Well no, it used to be— well yes, it was UCRL at first and then it was [ pause] it was LRL, which was Lawrence Radiation Laboratory, and then it was LLNL, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. So all the laboratories, I think at that time, put “ National” in front of them, such as Sandia National Laboratory and Los Alamos Scientific National Laboratory. Yes. I think they went from their— they codified it a little bit. Look at this. Well, they gave these out to the key personnel so you’d know who to— But this is a little organizational chart, it looks like. Yes. This is very interesting. Yes, this is Joint Task Force Seven. Yes. Very interesting. [ Looking through papers] Hickam Air Force Base [ Hawaii] and all the people there. And then this is what I was looking at actually, see, he’s got here “ nickname Duke, August 1947,” and that’s when that picture was taken up there on the hill. [ M. McMillan6a] [ 00: 05: 00] Yes, in August ’ 47. OK. Yes. And the University of California, well, he took classes there, I guess. He was a “ commercial radio operator, operator in charge, Pan American Airways radio station, Wake Island.” There it is, yes. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 19 And he’d been on four operations. And in this context, “ operations” means tests, bomb tests, do you think, or—? Operations for, I guess, he’s the advisory group with the University of California Radiation Laboratory, electrical engineering. And here, Herb’s [ York] the last one [ M. Millan6b]. They were always together. That’s why I thought they would remember him. They did. They did. See, and they were on the same number of operations, four. Right, four. OK, so that must have been the number that they did. “ Director, University of California Radiation Laboratory” was what it was called then. And the date of this is 1955. Interesting. All right, this is a fabulous document. [ Looking at photo] Oh, there’s Herb Grier. I just saw him. That’s Forrest Fairbrother [ M. Millan6c]. Oh, well see, I know those people. Look. That’s Walt Gibbins [ M. Millan6d]. I love that they put their nicknames on it so you know what to call them. Oh, I love to go through these! This is amazing. Well, these are all people that— That’s [ 00: 06: 43]. Let’s find Grier. There [ M. Millan6e]. See, “ number of operations, ten”