Interview with Michael Bordner, June 8, 2005

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with Michael Bordner June 8, 2005 Mercury, Nevada Interview Conducted By Suzanne Becker © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Michael Bordner June 8, 2005 Conducted by Suzanne Becker Table of Contents Introduction: birth ( Los Angeles, CA, 1956), childhood in CA and Chino Valley, AZ, varied employment, takes job with Nye County Sheriff ( 1980) 1 Impressions of the NTS upon arrival 3 Typical work day and excitement of a shot night at the NTS 4 Dealing with protesters at the NTS: Nevada Desert Experience and celebrity protesters 8 Opinions on protesters and the importance of testing 13 Comparison of job requirements before and after moratorium ( 1992) 14 Incidents and confrontations with protesters, and how they were handled by law enforcement 16 Personal relationships with protesters; Berrigan, Affleck, Ellsberg, Sheen 23 Holding pens for protesters at the NTS 25 Reflections on camaraderie and being a part of the NTS culture 26 Clearance requirements for Nye County Sheriff’s employees at the NTS 27 Effects of law enforcement and living requirements at the NTS on marriage and family life 28 Early work in fire safety while living in Arizona 30 Strikes at the NTS 32 National security issues at the NTS: aftermath of 9/ 11, JVE and the Russian visit ( 1988- 1989), British visits 33 Fatality accidents at the NTS and their effects on law enforcement and workers 36 Stand- out experiences at the NTS: protests, camaraderie, social events, touring the tunnels 41 Plans for retirement and previous job opportunities 44 Relationship with Sheriff James Merlino 47 Treatment of protesters at the NTS 50 Conclusion: collection and preservation of NTS artifacts 52 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Michael Bordner June 8, 2005 at the Nevada Test Site in Mercury, NV Conducted by Suzanne Becker [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Suzanne Becker: Why don’t you go ahead and begin. Mike Bordner: I’m Mike Bordner. I was born in Los Angeles, California— well, Pasadena, California, just outside of L. A.— November 28, 1956. [ I] lived in L. A. and the surrounding area for about, I don’t know, thirteen years and then moved to a little town called Chino Valley, Arizona, just outside of Prescott. [ I] lived there for ten years; worked retail grocery, worked for the sheriff’s office, worked for the fire department, and ended up in 1980 gravitating out here. So you went to school and grew up primarily in the Los Angeles area? Grade school in Los Angeles and just started high school. What brought you to Arizona? My folks moved. I was a little young to stay there on my own. So they moved while you were still in high school. My dad got a medical retirement from the Post Office and had always planned on looking for a little farm, a little ranch, and so we ended up buying a handful of acres with chickens and ducks. Prescott is nice. It is. It was a lot nicer back then than it is now. But it was a nice way to grow up. Looking back on it, I hated it back there because there was nothing to do, but looking back on it now, it was good. And then from Prescott you gravitated toward here? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 Back in about ’ 78, I got involved with the fire department and the sheriff’s office both in Prescott, going to school for fire science and also for law enforcement. Back about the same time in maybe ’ 79, the sheriff’s office here with Nye County had a recall and the sheriff was removed from office. I had a friend of mine who had lived in the area that I went to school with for the police and fire science over in Arizona and ended up coming out here for a job. He bugged me for three months to come and put in an application. And I finally figured, you know, what the heck, it’s a good way to spend a weekend in [ Las] Vegas and piddle around. I ended up, coming out, and had an interview with a lieutenant over at the Pahrump Substation. His name was Fred D’Albani [ sp] and he was from Tucson PD [ Police Department] so at least we had a little bit of something, camaraderie there, both from Arizona. Once I found out what the county was all about with brothels and things like that and I was thinking about getting married, I figured this ain’t the place for me and I did my best to talk myself out of a job. Which I did. The lieutenant said, I don’t think you’re what we’re looking for. We’ll go ahead and give your application to the sheriff, though, but don’t plan anything. I went back to Arizona. About three days later, I got a call from the sheriff offering me a job. Go figure. I talked it over with the girlfriend at the time and my friends and family and figured nothing ventured, nothing gained. It was a good move on my part to come up here, it really was. I’ve enjoyed it, it’s been twenty- five good years. What did you think of it when you first got up here? Culture shock. I went from Los Angeles, the hustle and bustle of the city, to the nothingness of the upper hills of Arizona to really nothingness out here in the desert. I figured the big hole’s UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 going to swallow me up one of these days. But no, it’s been good. It was a good move. Good friends, good people. Had a lot of good times. Now, when you came out here and hired in, you were working at the [ Nevada] test site? Yes. I started out here. What were your impressions of that? Had you known much about the Nevada Test Site prior to that? I knew absolutely nothing about it. Working with the sheriff’s office in Arizona, and granted, up in the hills of Prescott it wasn’t all that exciting, but you had your times. The Fourth of July weekends and things like that and I got to work other areas, Camp Verde, places around there when they would have their yearly celebrations. So it was the hustle and bustle of— I guess you’d want to call that a big city, or those cities, to come out here and it’s nothing. The streets roll up at night. Even back then when the test site, at least to me, was booming, by ten o’clock, unless there was a particular project going on, everything shut down. The bowling alley was shutting down, the Steakhouse was closing up. So man, you’d look for something to do. You’d pray that somebody would have an accident so you would have something to do. Of course, you didn’t want anybody to get hurt, but will somebody please go do something so I have something to piddle with. But no, I knew absolutely nothing about the test site. The job offering from the sheriff at the time was for Tonopah, and of course my question is what the hell’s a Tonopah? I’d never heard of that. He explained a little bit to me. I talked it over with friends and family and the decision was made to at least give it a try. I called back and accepted the job position and told him, I said, Without any hard feelings, I’d like to try for a while, but I’m going to lose X- amount of money a month leaving the jobs that I’m at now and coming out there. His remark was, Well, if you want this much more money, UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 [ 00: 05: 00] go to work at Mercury. Now, what the hell’s a Mercury? But the per diem made up for the amount of money that I was losing. It wasn’t so much an increase in pay, we just got a subsistence for being out here because we had to stay. So that’s what brought me out here and I guess what kept me. For twenty- five years, you said. A little over twenty- five. Now, is your family still in Arizona? Dad passed away in ’ 89 and my mom just moved up to Green Valley [ Henderson, NV] about six weeks ago. I still have some friends back there I keep in contact with, but no other family. My dad’s side of the family is on the West Coast. I’ve got an aunt and uncle in Vegas also, and Oregon. Cousins in Montana. Mom’s side of the family is all over the Midwest, Wisconsin, Indiana. Well, it’s good you’ve got some folks out here close to you. So you hired on the force at the test site. What’s a typical day all about at that point, at that time? A typical day basically was obviously working traffic. We have a couple of traffic hours, people coming to work, people going to work. Back in the early eighties was a little bit different because with the different projects and the nuclear testing going on, obviously there were more people, there were different shifts than what are done now. You did have a little bit of twenty- four- hour activity, security obviously, but there were a few groups that were out here later in the evenings and stuff. But for the most part, our time was from six in the morning to eight in the morning for traffic, from 2: 30 or three in the afternoon to about four or 4: 30, and that was it. So our shifts were made to cover basically those traffic hours, plus a little bit later into the evening. Area 12 had a rec hall going, pool tables, vending machines, TV, they had card tables, a little UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 bar. So our deal was to check not only the cafeteria— obviously we’d eat at the cafeteria— but check the Steakhouse, check the stuff up in Area 12, two theaters, make sure nobody was doing— and what do you do in a theater? You walk in and there’s five people, man, they’ve really got a mass of folks in here. And that covered the bowling alley, we’d make an appearance into. Unless something special was going on, like a shot night, our shifts were done by nine or ten o’clock. Then an officer would take calls until the next day. Either he would come back on, double back, or somebody else would come back on. What happened on a shot night? Oh, man, lots of excitement. Security would usually start a couple of days before, closing down the forward areas. Depending upon how far north they had to close down, they would start maybe up on the mesa. They would start up on the mesa and usually shut that down maybe forty- eight hours, seventy- two hours before the scheduled testing time. And then maybe anywhere from, oh, God, twelve to twenty- four hours prior to that, they would shut down maybe at Area 6. As time would get closer, then we shut down the top of 200 Hill just outside of Mercury. You would have to have a muster badge to be in those areas so Security could come and find you if anything went wrong. Most everybody other than the workers that had to be there would gravitate to Mercury and you’d have a full cafeteria, full Steakhouse, full bowling alley. They’d bring in a band sometimes. Oh, really. Yes, he’d have 500 miners and three women. Great time. But it would be a full house for everybody. They’d usually have a pretty good time. The cafeteria would stay open usually those twenty- four hours or that particular length of time. Bowling alley would be open till one or two o’clock. Steakhouse would probably stay open till midnight and keep everybody happy. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 Right. Because basically people are here almost twenty- four hours for those. Oh, yeah. And did you have any different security protocol that you did in preparation for that? Not as far as we did. Security, I’m sure, did. They had a lot of things which they had to do. Our basic job was obviously civilian law enforcement and if they needed assistance, back them up. So our game plan for the most part didn’t change, other than we went from 1,350 square miles to patrol down to Mercury for the period of time, and then once things got going it would open back up again. Right. Were you out here at all, ever, when they did the tests? I guess they were underground but I don’t know if you were able to feel them? Oh, some of them. [ I] certainly wasn’t out here for all tests, but many of them, especially the [ 00: 10: 00] larger ones, they very easily could wake you up. It wasn’t so much that you were spending the night, of course, watching the shot. They had a little deal over at the fire station called Mercury Control and it was a representative from the sheriff’s office, Transportation, Security, DOE [ Department of Energy], probably the laboratory that was doing the experiment. You would all meet anywhere from about 3: 30 in the morning to five in the morning and sit over there until the experiment had taken place and things were cleared, or until they decided to postpone it to another day. So a lot of times, one of us would be sitting over there and then the big thing was to watch the coffee pot. You would hear the countdown and when they get down to zero, everybody would start counting one, two, three, and see how long it would take for the coffee to start flopping back and forth in the pot. Number one, you would see that, if it was that big, and big enough for you to feel it. And sometimes it was. There’s been a couple of times that UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 it would wake you up in bed, and even though you were sound asleep, it would just be enough to shake you. You ever been through an earthquake? Just very, very small ones. I lived through a lot of them in L. A. I bet. That’s just what it felt like somebody would just come along, take your bed, and shake it for a few seconds, then go on. How far away are you from most of the places where they were shot off? I guess it depends where on the site they were doing it. Well, barring any kind of a special activity, and there were times that we were closer, but for the most part, if we were locked out here in Mercury, there were no tests done any closer than the Area 6 facilities— if you know where that is, out past Wet and Wild— we’re probably the closest, give or take, twenty- five to thirty miles. And farther up would be up on the mesa, so you may be looking in a straight line anywhere from fifty to sixty miles; by road, probably sixty to seventy miles. So it was pretty significant that you were still feeling the after effects here. I guess they had some pretty big things they dropped down there. What did you think about all of that when you first started working here? It was interesting. Well, something new, of course, and everybody, my friends, my family, when I’d go back to visit in Arizona, everybody wants to know about it. Of course, I don’t build them, I don’t see them. There’s not a whole lot you could say other than boom, shake, rattle, and roll. It was different, a new experience, and of course, then, like anything else, pretty soon it just gets to be old hat. It’s the same thing. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 Right. Were you familiar at all with the whole nuclear testing issues? No. So I guess, then, a lot of— talking to Jim [ James] Merlino, your name came up a couple of times in talking about some of the protests that went on up here. Is that something that you dealt with first hand, being out on the highway and all? Oh, yes, we all got initiated real quick. It’s my understanding back in the late fifties there was a group called the Atomlopers that would come out and protest. So it’s my guessing that sometime between the late fifties, early sixties, that end of the protest era, I don’t even know if things went on during the Vietnam War out here, I’ve never heard of it. So back in about and I’m guessing ’ 81 or ’ 82 maybe was the first protest experience any of us had, when, I think it was, at that time called the Lenten Desert Experience formed and started coming out. So, that was a little bit— that was something new. I’m just wondering if you can tell me about that. I have interviewed several Nevada Desert Experience [ NDE] people who I think led a lot of the protests or participated in a lot, and I was just wondering if you could tell me what that was like. Did they call you and let you know that they were going to be doing anything? Were there a lot of people? A few people? Somebody developed a dialogue with the groups early on, and I don’t know who it was. I don’t think it was Merlino. It certainly wasn’t me. I don’t think it was Merlino. It may have been Security. It may have been somebody in DOE. But usually we would get notification one way or another of a group coming out. And it all started out with the Easter deal, with the Lenten Desert Experience. As time went by, they found other reasons to come out. One of the first big ones we had or the first few big ones, we had guys like the Berrigan brothers [ Daniel and Philip] who would come out, and they tried to, and I’m going to say cross into our property. And I don’t UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 mean they were sneaking, they were crawling. They walked up the road or walked just off the road and tried to cross our line, and at one point they brought in German [ 00: 15: 00] nationals. Nobody went anywhere. They were detained, they were taken into custody. They were turned over to INS [ Immigration and Naturalization Service], those who were not from here. Basically cited and released and went on their way. But, celebrities, like I said. There again, the Berrigan brothers, who were very vocal during the Vietnam era. And I’m trying to think of— Ellsberg, Daniel Ellsberg was out here, and he made several appearances, but he’s been pretty quiet for the last number of years with us. The last twenty, I don’t think he’s had a whole lot to do with our position. I think on both sides, especially starting out, it was controlled chaos, you know. They didn’t know what they could do, should do, would do. We, of course, didn’t know what we could do, should do, would do, other than everybody’s big stand, especially DOE [ Department of Energy], was treat them nice and they’ll go away. Most everybody in law enforcement don’t usually think too well about treating somebody that nice. If they’re going to come along and you tell them not to break a law and they do, your deal is the hook and book. Everybody wanted to treat them with kid gloves. And, you know, they caused a lot of maybe heartburn back then. Within the security— Well, security and law enforcement community. We would get assistance from Highway Patrol and they would not maybe want to work under the same guidelines that we had out here. We would get officers from other substations: Pahrump, Tonopah, Beatty, Amargosa. They may be a little more aggressive than we were to be out here. So it brought up some controversies. How big were these protests that were in the eighties, do you know? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 Starting out back then, just an offhand guess, I would say anywhere from a handful of people up to maybe seventy, eighty, ninety, initially. That would usually be on the Easter weekends. When that particular holiday came around, they would gather more folks. As the eighties come along, or back in towards the middle part of the eighties when the things got bigger, we had up to, I believe, 5,000 people at one time. That was during the Nagasaki- Hiroshima stuff back in the— like the third through the tenth of August. We’d have a week or ten days of it and that was not fun. It was fun initially; by the end of it, you were mad at everybody, including yourself. It got old. But yes, those were very well remembered by a lot of us. How did you handle those numbers of people for that many days? You know, to tell you the truth, I really have no good answer for that. We tried to work by their schedule. Of course, if we see them gearing up, we wake everybody up and we head out. They didn’t bother us too much twenty- four hours a day. It wasn’t a continuous probe. They may have a half- a- dozen, twenty, thirty, forty people down at the cattle guard at night beating drums and singing, but it wasn’t the mass. So once the arrests were taken care of and people were cited and released or whatever, as they would start deescalating, we would try and start deescalating. Then pretty soon we’re down to maybe one or two of our officers and a dozen security guards out there who would let those who were sleeping know that something was coming along and we’d all rush back out again. What types of things went on? Can you describe some of the— were there any— I mean they seemed to be fairly peaceful protests. For the most part. There were very few instances that I can think of in which any one of their people got out of line. We did have officers bitten a few times. There were a few punches thrown by both sides. But there’s been no rocks, no sticks, no major weapons. Been name calling. I think UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 both sides were probably pretty lucky because as we would get nervous because of what they were doing, I’m sure they would get nervous because of what we’re doing. We’re damned lucky that when we had the 5,000 people, there probably wasn’t a mini- riot out there a couple of times. We had a couple of narcotics officers come along and try to work the crowd, and they made an arrest for narcotics one day. John Bogle [ sp] was one of the officers. John Bogle? Bogle was one of our dope detectives. Johnny made an arrest and I think Steve Huggins [ sp] was another one of the two; they made an arrest. Well, as they started dragging the guy out of the crowd, of course now he’s kicking and screaming and yelling and that agitates the people around him who, of course, agitate those of us on the other side who agitate more [ 00: 20: 00] people on their side, and pretty soon you’ve got four or five or six hundred mad protesters and three dozen upset security guards and a dozen upset cops all ready to whup it out. I think both sides were real lucky that it never got to the point to where something actually happened. Those instances were few and far between. Right. And they mostly hung out at the Peace Camp up the road? They did a little deal. As you go back out towards Vegas, just before you get to [ Interstate] 95 and the northbound turnoff, there’s a wide spot on the right. That’s where they did a lot of their local, I guess you want to call it, local services. When they had a small Easter gathering, that’s where they would do their stuff. The bigger gatherings would take place the other side, if you want to call it the Peace Camp. Well, I don’t know what it’s called. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 That’s what they called it, and that’s fine. It all describes the area. But yeah, that’s where they would house most of their bigger groups. Even now, I think, when sunrise services come along for Easter, when the Shoshones are out here, that’s more or less where they do it. Right. And they’re still coming out, correct? Yes, we don’t see any major groups anymore. They’re probably lucky. We’re probably lucky. They don’t usually number more than maybe a handful to a couple, three dozen. You may see a hundred, but probably not. Right. What about this year? We’re coming up on the sixtieth anniversary of Hiroshima and Nagasaski. Are you expecting anything to happen for that, or have you heard? The only documentation we have, and I’m on their mailing list, is a little deal that says most of their stuff is going to be downtown and they’re going to spend one night, or come out here for one evening of protest. So I think we’re probably going to get off pretty lucky. They don’t want to stay up late, so hopefully by ten o’clock everybody’s going back home to do their stuff. As far as numbers, I can’t tell you. You call them up now and ask them and they’re going to say, well, we’ve got 10,000 flyers out and we’re hoping for 5,000 to come. They’re probably going to be lucky if they get 150. But you just don’t know until it gets down to that time. They’re usually pretty good with giving us a general idea. So you have a pretty good working relationship with them right now. If they have a problem, if they want to come out, let’s say. Let’s go back a number of years. They had a gentleman by the name of Larry, and I can’t remember what Larry’s last name was, but he was back with the original Desert Lenten group. He lived down in southern Arizona, and on one of his trips up here he rolled his car and was killed. NDE, or LDE at the time, called out here to see if DOE would give them permission to come and protest on— well, this is back when UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 we allowed them to the white line down by the airport— if DOE would allow them to come out to protest because Larry had killed himself. Not suicide, because Larry was killed in a car accident and this is where he protested, this is the thing that he wanted to do. DOE gave them permission. There again we’re talking back in the early eighties. The thing was if you do something bad, you’re not coming back out again. Like that’s going to stop them. But even to this day, they’ll do the same thing. It’s very rare we will get a group to come out and protest without first being contacted. You may see a busload, minibus- load, come out. These are Japanese tourists who protest in Japan. They want to take a picture of the “ No Trespassing” sign. So everybody gets their picture taken, they’re back in the bus, and they leave. But for any kind of a program that they have going, we usually get contacted first. Right. So what is your opinion of the protesters? What do you make of it? Do you understand what they’re doing or do you see a point to this? Well, what I tell them every time they want to argue is, I’m not out here to argue the morality of nuclear weapons. I think most any sane person— maybe that’s questionable on my part about the sanity— understands that nuclear weapons, death of any type that way, has got to be a horrible, horrible thing. Obviously for the person involved and the families, if anybody lives through it, but for the nations and everybody else in the world. But there again, on the other hand, we have to protect ourselves from what another group may do. Do I think disarmament is ever going to happen? No, I don’t. I don’t think we’re in the Star Trek deal where we’ve all learned and everybody now lives together as one big happy family. It’s just not going to happen. De- escalation obviously has taken place in a number of cases over a number of different topics. Different weapons types. I guess probably the best we can hope for is a happy balance: I know you have it, you know I have it. You don’t mess with me; I’m not [ 00: 25: 00] going to mess with UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 you. And maybe we’ll find a way to get along that way. I don’t have an opinion on it. I support what the government does; I wouldn’t be out here if I didn’t. As far as the testing goes— and there again I guess testing nuclear weapons is like testing anything else— you have to make sure it works. Ford Motor Company tests vehicles. Chrysler. Libby’s tests the food that they put out on the shelves. So there’s got to be some kind of a program to make sure that the product that you’re producing is workable, is livable, will do what it’s designed to do. It’s just unfortunate that when you do do a testing a program, especially in nuclear weapons, it does the damage that it does. I would imagine that underground is probably a whole lot better than doing something like France does and blow it up on an island somewhere. You’re polluting the air, you’re polluting the ground and the water. Where are you going to draw the line? But obviously something, I’m sure, needs to be done to keep these things going. Obviously you were out here at the pinnacle of testing and protesting and you’ve probably seen a lot of change over the past decade and a half or so. I’m just wondering how your job has changed with the moratorium on testing and at one point the test site employed a lot of people and now I think that number is down significantly. How has your job changed, or has it changed? The responsibilities of the job, for the most part, haven’t changed. I would venture to say that maybe the amount of work we do certainly has. Back when I started, we had maybe 10,000 people working out here. Very few out in [ Area] 25, NRDS [ Nuclear Rocket and Development Station], NRDA [ Nevada Research and Development Area]. The MX [ Missile Experimental] project was in the process of being put together or tested. So there were a few military, a number of civilians out there, but most of our stuff was weapons related. And of course they would build up, depending upon what program was going on; you’d build up a few and when that program’s UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 over with, you’d lose a few. But I think we stayed pretty stationary, around 10,000 people, up until give or take it was about ’ 92 when the moratorium came in and testing for the most part went away. At least testing as we knew it. Now I’m guessing we’re probably at about 3,000 people out here, maybe. It’s made our job easier because we don’t have the amount of people to deal with. I have the same amount of officers that I had, or that we worked with back in those times. We don’t take near as many theft reports. We don’t do near as many accidents. We don’t write near as many citations. I guess the good thing about that is we’re being less invasive to the people who are out here. Well, the bad part about it is we’re spending more time driving, wearing out the cars, sucking up the gas. More time sitting and talking. It’s, I guess, good and bad on both parts. But the job responsibilities haven’t changed that much. We’re still here for the same thing. We still roll on the highway when needed. Still do civilian law enforcement out here, whether it’s military or civilians that we deal with. Right. Were there a lot of traffic accidents out here back in the heyday? What was the majority of the types of situations that you encountered? Well, most of everything that we were involved in pretty much centered around traffic. Traffic accidents, traffic citations, traffic hours, we’d go out and work our deals. I really couldn’t answer your question on how many we had or if there were a lot more. I’m going to guess right now, with as slow as things are, we probably run, and don’t hold me down to a good number but I’m going to guess probably about four dozen accidents a year. Might be a little bit more. But we probably run a hundred different calls that are notable. What I mean by notable calls, we’ll make a report on it, and about half of those are accidents. So it’s probably a fifty- fifty split. Back twenty years ago, we still took a lot of theft reports, we still to