Interview with Frankie Lou (Louise) Mayer, July 26, 2004

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with Frankie Lou Mayer July 26, 2004 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Shannon Applegate © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Frankie Lou Mayer July 26, 2004 Conducted by Shannon Applegate Table of Contents Introduction: birth, family, early memories, education, marriage and family, move to Las Vegas, NV as school teacher, memories of early Las Vegas, career progression 1 Move to Insurance Department, Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Company ( REECo) doing workers’ compensation 6 Writes REECo manual for self- insurance with Trudy Stubbs 8 Describes workers’ compensation hearings and details typical claims and how they were handled 8 Outlines claims for radiation injury while working on the Nevada Test Site ( NTS), other factors leading to claims ( hearing loss) 14 Memories of Lavonne Lewis as a supervisor 17 Job culture at REECo 18 Talks about rehabilitation and retraining of workers after accidents and/ or injury 18 Discusses relationships with coworkers 20 Relates working hours and locations, visits to NTS, on- the- job training 21 Recounts observation of atmospheric tests, feelings of trust in the U. S. government and what they were doing with testing 24 Describes casino lounge entertainment in early Las Vegas 25 Talks about life and casino work in early Las Vegas 27 Recalls early work as a school teacher in California 28 Conclusion: final thoughts on education and teaching as a career 29 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Frankie Lou Mayer July 26, 2004 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Shannon Applegate [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Frankie Lou Mayer: Well, I was a Depression- era baby, born back in Oklahoma, in the middle of a wheat field, they tell me, in a farmhouse. I have a memory that can go back to the age of three. I remember living in New Mexico, where my mother and father lived on a farm, and they helped to raise beans. I can remember the house. I can remember going back to Oklahoma, where I grew up. I have one sister who is three years younger than I am. In Oklahoma, as a child, I was a very happy child. My sister and I were rather isolated from everybody else because we lived out in the country, about thirteen miles from the closest town. So we became very close. The country high school, where I went to high school, was called Alden. It’s no longer in existence. When I graduated from high school, there were no senior girls; there were no junior girls; so I was the only girl in the junior and senior class, but there were only twelve that were in the graduating class, so it was a very small school. From there, I went to a junior college called Carnegie. After that, I went to Weatherford. It was called Southwestern State College. I had gone to college at UNLV [ University of Nevada, Las Vegas]. But I never quite graduated because once I got to Las Vegas and started college, they would not accept any credits from the junior college in Carnegie because they weren’t in the blue book, whatever that is. Shannon Applegate: They weren’t accredited? I supposed that’s it. Many of the Korean veterans went to this junior college because they had financing from the years they’d served. In the junior college, I think they had sixty students, and seven of us were girls; the rest were guys. That’s where I met my first husband. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 We taught school in Kansas, and I taught school in Oklahoma. Las Vegas had a better salary, so we came here. In 1954, we taught at Blue Diamond. Blue Diamond schoolhouse was not owned by the school district; it was owned by the gypsum company. They allowed school to be taught in there, but they would have their beer parties on the weekend, and when we’d come into the room on Monday, it would be full of beer cans and cigarette butts and we’d have— Really? You’d have to clean it out? Yes. So the school was very crowded. I had the first, second, and third grades, and there was not enough room to walk down the aisles of the desks. Did you have air conditioning? Yes, we had swamp coolers. You had swamp coolers. But I would think that would be pretty miserable. Well, you know, I lived many years out here with swamp coolers. Because the humidity was so much less than it is now, we didn’t think we were suffering. You didn’t know any different. That’s right. We lived in Henderson for quite a few years, and my ex- husband was a poker dealer at the Golden Nugget. He was an excellent poker dealer. But all the while he was going to school to finish up and teach, which he later did, and retired as a teacher out here. I was a stay- at- home mom for many years, but I did work for the IBM [ International Business Machines] Corporation, in those days, a woman who became pregnant could only work for six months and then you must stop working. So that ended that. And you weren’t guaranteed your job back, right? They left it kind of iffy. You could come back and apply, and they didn’t guarantee it. So after my youngest child was born, I was a stay- at- home mom until my ex- husband left and I had to UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 start back to work. I started working at a place called Gloria Marshall’s Figure Salon because I was tall and, at that time, very thin, and I could eat anything I wanted and stay thin, so I worked there, and then it went out of business. I worked— What did you do there? I sold memberships to a weight loss program. [ 00: 05: 00] So this is like the very first Jenny Craig, Weight Watchers— Yes. And Gloria Marshall was a lady that lived in California. She started this program. She came to visit us several times. Her place was just at the end of the Boulevard Mall. Across the street of Twain, there was another little area there that she had her salon. It was a beautiful salon, but she didn’t do very well. She had her own diet a client was to follow, which was always a half a grapefruit with each meal and a lot of spinach and high protein. Betty Grable was one of our clients. She came to work off some inches that she had gained, before she went north to star in some last show that she was in, and she said, If you will notice, in all my movie pictures, they always put a big, full skirt on me to make my waist look smaller because I always had trouble with gaining weight in the waist. But she was a very sweet lady. So you met her? Yes. She came and worked on the exercise machines, and she was very friendly. Was she heavy or was she—? No, she just gained about ten pounds that she wanted to get off for this show she was going to be in. She was married to Harry James at that time. We bought her car from her before she sold everything and divorced Harry James. So you had Betty Grable’s car. Yes. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 What kind of car was it? It was a Pontiac Grand Prix. She had a special device installed in that car. The radio had a speaker in the back and a speaker in the front, and the one in the back was about three seconds slower than the one in the front, and it gave kind of an echo. It was beautiful. It was a big, heavy, luxurious car, we thought. So after Gloria Marshall, I applied at Women’s Hospital— I’m sure you don’t even know of that hospital. It was on Bruce and Sahara, and it catered to having babies, all the women loved to come there because husbands could come in and be with them. They even allowed the baby to be born in water, and at that time, that was something very new and different. And this was in the late fifties? No, this was in the sixties. No, the seventies. This was in the early seventies. Was it midwives that were in the hospitals? No, they were doctors, and some of the doctors, after they left there, are still practicing. But it became a competitor against Sunrise Hospital, in reality. We could use it now, but Sunrise Hospital wanted the part that had the babies and the nursery, and so it was just abandoned, torn down, and I don’t know what’s there now. What did you do there? I started out as a switchboard operator, and then I progressed to admitting, and then I progressed to personnel director. But when the hospital sold, they decided they didn’t need a personnel director. They wanted each one of the departments to take care of their hiring and firing. I would put ads in the paper, do the preliminary interview of the different people that were needed, and a lot of everything. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 So the man that was running the hospital had a girlfriend. Well, I knew his wife, and I didn’t care for his way of life, and he wanted me to train his girlfriend, after the personnel director was disbanded, and I said, No, I’ll do anything else in this hospital, but I won’t train her. So I left. I remember going to the unemployment office and they heard my story, called his secretary, and she verified it, so I got unemployment, even though I had walked [ 00: 10: 00] out the door. After that, what did I do? Oh, I was working for Westinghouse Credit Corporation. That was here in Las Vegas, and they did what they call “ flooring” of all the big businesses that carried their products. They gave them a line of credit. And I was being trained to go to each one of these businesses, to check the machines that they said they had, check the serial numbers, and be sure they were making the payments on those machines. They were not buying the machines; they were just more or less paying a certain amount to Westinghouse to have them there and be able to sell them. But it was traveling all over Las Vegas and I didn’t like the job. So I saw an ad in the paper, at Reynolds Electric[ al and Engineering Company] [ REECo], wanting somebody in the insurance department. I will tell this story. I had a son that married a person, and they started Gleaners in Las Vegas. Gleaners, went to the different grocery stores and got their foods that had passed shelf life and distributed it to the needy people. My [ son’s] wife was a man that had a sex change. He swears he didn’t know it, but she isn’t living anymore and now that I think about it, he had to have known it. But anyway, they did so well that President [ Ronald W.] Reagan came here and gave them a plaque showing what they had done, and when they parted, she took the plaque and I don’t know where it is. But they did some wonderful things for the people here. And they did that on their own? They just thought of doing that and—? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 Yes. And they were called Gleaners, and they functioned into the eighties. So did they develop like a food pantry? Yes, they had different places here in Las Vegas to donate the space for them to store all their stuff, and people would come with little vouchers from different places, like Salvation Army or whatever, saying that they qualified for food, and they would allow them to take so much food, of whatever they had there. I have been to their place and worked a little bit with them many times, and they had lots and lots of business, if you want to call it that. But things went sour, I don’t know what happened, really. The fact that my son filed for divorce— he couldn’t get a divorce; he had to get an annulment because I suppose the marriage was never consummated. Anyway, he is the one, he and Celeste , that took me to REECo to apply. I didn’t have a lot of self- confidence, but she was very good. She said, You can get that job. Just go in there and be yourself. So the fellow that interviewed me took way over my lunch hour time, and I said, I’ve got to get back to work. Well, he said, All right, I’ll let you hear from me. And I thought that was that, but they did call me and say, Give your place of employment two weeks’ notice and come to work for us. Well, I came to work really on a low level; I took a cut in pay to start there. It was in the insurance department but it was the group insurance that I worked for a couple of years. They had self insurance, but Aetna did all the bill- paying, but we closely looked over their bill- paying before we sent the letter back to the employee. There was a man that REECo had hired who lives in Texas. His name is Rex Glimp and you’ll have to ask Lavonne Lewis what he was paid for, but he had something to do with getting the insurances for REECo. He would come up once a year and give a dinner at her house, bring his own avocados, and have a Mexican dinner. He was a very nice man, but I [ 00: 15: 00] don’t UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 know how he fit in the picture, what he did. He was paid for something to do with getting the insurances that REECo had. So then they needed somebody to work with the other girl in workers’ compensation, and decided I would be the one. I started working with her. I didn’t like the way she did things, she got very angry with me and told me that she was the expert and if I didn’t like what she was doing, I could do something else. I said, But you’re doing it all wrong. Somehow or other, they decided I had the best idea, so she got up and left. What was she doing? What didn’t I like? She would never call the hospitals to argue about how much to pay, or what the charges were on the bill. Since I had worked at Women’s Hospital, I knew that sometimes there are errors made in hospital billing, and so I would call and talk to them; she didn’t think that should be done. Workers’ compensation at REECo, we were insured through the State Industrial Insurance System [ SIIS], but we were the only company, as far as I know, in Clark County that was called X- Medical. That meant SIIS insured every part of workers’ compensation except the medical, and we paid the medical billing. So it was the medical billing— and the way she had her files set up to pay the billing. I didn’t like that because she would just ignore many of the bills that came in because maybe those bills were three months old, but she put them at the back if they came in today, and didn’t pay them as to when the services had been done. So I worked in workers’ compensation, learning more and more and more. We had a male supervisor. I wanted to do more and learn more. He said, But Frankie, you wouldn’t want to go to those hearings and have to argue with those people. He died, and a lady took over. She said, Frankie, you can do anything. Now, go for it. If you want UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 to be a benefits specialist, go for it. So I did, and I did get to be a senior benefits specialist before Bechtel, took over the contract that REECo had. But we decided after a while that we could do things cheaper than the State Industrial Insurance System, and decided to go self- insured. Another girl and I, Trudy Stubbs wrote the manual for self- insurance at REECo. We spent hours and hours and hours doing it. Then we had a lady that was an excellent programmer. She set up the bill- paying on the computer, and she did an outstanding job. She also set up the temporary total disability payments. She set up a payment based on salaries, when you get a large amount of lump sum settlements. She was outstanding. She’s back in Plano, Texas now, so she would be a good person to interview about the computers of the world and REECo. But we would go to the hearings. There’s three levels in Nevada of hearings. There’s the hearing officer hearing, there’s the appeals office hearing, and then you can go on up to the Supreme Court. I went to the hearing office level— that’s the first level— and argued either for or against whatever was going on. The attorney hired by REECo, Kevin Johnson , went to the appeals level. And then if it went on up, they had another attorney, Art Williams . He might get involved with the really high level of hearing. And this was when an employee had a dispute with the compensation? When they appealed our decision, right. [ 00: 20: 00] So they weren’t under any mandate to stay within a specialized committee. They could take it to the court level. Yes. So when you would go to the hearing level— UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 The claimant could appeal whatever decision came out of a hearing officer’s decision, or we could appeal whatever came out and go on up to the appeals officer’s level. It very rarely went beyond there. I know there was one man that worked in the forward area. He was cleaning out mice debris in a shack when he came down with Hantavirus, He almost died. They gave him a settlement and he didn’t take it on up. We were not privileged to know how large the settlement was, but he did, take the settlement. And then REECo had their own medical facility out at the test site, and here in Las Vegas, too. We always had the claimant go to that doctor if he would. He was not required to. But the REECo doctor would take a look at him. The claims got so hot and heavy, we had to hire an investigator. His name was Steven Bunker , He would be sure that the OSHA [ Occupational Safety and Health Administration] procedures had been followed when there was an accident, whether it was the company’s fault or the claimants and then the drug screening came into being, and they would always do that for somebody that had an accident. They couldn’t always just go out and grab somebody and do a drug screening if there was no cause. So they didn’t have random testing. Right. They tried it. Did they try it with Los Alamos? [ speaking to husband, Bill Mayer] Bill Mayer: I don’t know. Frankie Lou Mayer: I don’t think it ever went over. The random just didn’t go. I don’t know where I am in this story. Were you mandated by state law for the different benefits that you had to pay out? Yes. So you had to follow that guidebook. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 Absolutely. Nevada Revised Statutes is what we had to go by. You also had to have a certain lump sum of money in an account in order to pay off your—? Right. Well, DOE [ Department of Energy] supplied the money, so we never knew how much there was or wasn’t. We just paid and went on. So DOE kept the reserve for the claims. Right. And it was just you and somebody else handling all the claims? Oh, no. There were three of us, handling the self insured claims and we went to the hearings. The other people more or less paid the bills. They were the bill- payers. And when we went self- insured, we still had to keep those old claims that SIIS was in charge of, so we had to start fresh with the new people. We couldn’t take the old claims as a self- insured. And therefore, it was a hodgepodge of two different kinds of things. When you would go to a hearing, what was that like? What was a typical—? Well, first, you had to sit and look through the file and decide what side you were going to take and what things you were going to bring up. Then you had to in put, in the computer, all that you were going to say and everything you were going to bring up, and a copy of that went to the hearing officer before the hearing. Then you sat there and listened to the claimant make his claim, and then you said your part, and the hearing officer took notes and made a decision that you got maybe a week later. How did they monitor how well you did? They didn’t. Oh, they didn’t? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 No, they didn’t monitor. The attorney would always get the hearing office decisions, and he would come down and talk with us and say, Do you think I really need to appeal this, or do you agree with what the hearing officer said? So we had a lot of interaction with him as to whether to go on or just drop it. I guess our supervisor, more or [ 00: 25: 00] less, monitored how we did. She would take a look at all the goings- on when she had time. And she would talk with us about the claim. I was never criticized about how I should’ve done or what I did. So it was pretty much self- directed. So was it pretty straightforward, like if you got someone’s file and you read everything, was it pretty straightforward as to how you would argue that claim? Yes. And were there some hearing officers that were more lenient or—? Yes. We were always grateful to get one or the other because some of them you knew would go against REECo no matter what. Really? Yes. But you couldn’t prove it. It’s just that way. Right. That’s what I’m learning a lot with some of the courts. Really? The ambiguity in the law and how some judges you just don’t want to go in front of. How they interpret. Right. Right. So that even happened at that level. Yes. And if this hearing officer was biased, that’s when the lawyer would have to get involved. Right. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 Well, that’s interesting. Were there particular claims like— what was the typical claim like? The typical claim was somebody slipped from a ladder and hurt his back. Since REECo was a construction company, the claims were mostly injuries on the job that had to do with lifting something that he shouldn’t have or falling. In the terrain out there, you know how rough and rocky it is, they would fall. So many times they’d try to file a claim from an injury on the bus, but we finally got it straight with the state that the bus rides were not a part of workers’ comp for REECo. That was the bus company. So the bus company had a few claims. They had a wreck or two, I think, that was slight, but that was their claim. And then besides REECo, these other companies out there were insured with the State Industrial Insurance System: Los Alamos [ National Laboratory], Lawrence Livermore [ National Laboratory], Wackenhut [ Services, Incorporated], Fenix and Scisson, Edgerton, Germerhausen, and Grier ( EG & G), Holmes and Narver. We had their claims, too. But they never did go self- insured, so we just went ahead with the bill- paying of their claims and watched what State Industrial was doing with their claim, and either intervened or called the person that would be their group leader or safety employee. Bill Mayer: Frankie Lou Mayer: Let them know that whatever was going on might need their attention. Oh, so if something looked like it should be contested, you would kind of red- flag it for them. Right. But still and all, their claims were handled by State Industrial, and if there was a hearing, State Industrial sent their representative, and then the claimant went, and sometimes we would go to represent the company’s interest in the claim. And you would represent the company in front of the hearing officer. Right. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 That’s interesting. Now, can you think of like the strangest claim you ever got, just completely wacky? Yes. It was shortly before I left. A man came in and said, I want to file a claim. He was living in a forward area, and he was just getting ready to go to bed at night and another man came in and tried to attack him, thinking he was gay. Well, I called in my co- worker, who was a man. I thought he ought to sit in on it. And he said, It ruined my life. And he said, I talked to my supervisor and he contacted the man and the man quit. And he just said, I think it should be a workers’ comp claim. Well, we finally convinced him that it shouldn’t be because he wasn’t working and he might have been on the job site but…. To me, that was the wackiest one. He woke up with the man standing over him without any clothes on, and he was still pretty shook up. [ 00: 30: 00] How would you deal with that, with people living out on the test site and making a claim when they really weren’t working, but because they were on—? If they were on company time, we would probably have to accept it. We never had a claim where they fell and broke their neck while they were in the room that they were living in. I don’t know why we didn’t, but when they stayed up there— and I’ve gone up and stayed overnight. There just weren’t any accidents in those buildings, for some reason. And I know Los Alamos had a whole group of buildings that people flew in from Los Alamos and stayed in, but I never heard of any accidents there. Did you think the majority of the people didn’t try and—? Phony a claim? The only claims that were hard to determine were those that a man would file a claim three days after it happened, saying he hurt his back. Well, I know a back can flare up three days after, but he would not have had witnesses, and you often wondered if he was trying UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 to get off for some other reason. And to me, most of the claims were legitimate. Those that got out of hand were the hearing loss claims. All of a sudden, the last three years I worked there, the Nevada Revised Statutes said that workers’ compensation will pay for hearing aids if you can prove that your line of work damaged your hearing. Well, at the Nevada Test Site, they provided ear plugs, but I don’t guess that it was mandated that you must wear them. So we had many, many hearing claims, and we would always send them to an audiologist who wrote a very good report about the age and what he saw and what kind of hearing loss it was and what the man said he did to cause it. Those were quite costly. We must have had thirty- five to a hundred claims for hearing aids. When they’d get the hearing aids, they wouldn’t wear them, but they thought they deserved to have a hearing aid. And I’m sure Bill would have gotten a hearing aid through workers’ comp because he was around the generators so much, that were noisy, and he does have a hearing loss. He was the kind of guy that didn’t file. Were there any claims made after someone had worked at the test site? The claims for radiation came, and the government set down a mandate about how to handle those claims, and they always just went immediately to the level of the attorney. We didn’t work with those. I did have one claimant, before they took the radiation claims away from us, that I don’t know if you’d say hit national news or not, but he worked out in the forward area, Area 51. He came into my office one day and his face and head were red and peeling. He said, I want to file a claim. I have radiation poisoning. I said, From what? Well, he said, I can’t tell you what was going on out there, but it’s that. So he filed his claim, and I can’t remember his name. He’s been in the news. He went to the doctors, and we were privileged to read all the doctor’s reports. The doctor said in his report UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 that he was an alcoholic, but he was also taking an antibiotic. I can’t remember the name of the antibiotic that if you get out in the sun, you’ll blister and peel. Medical reports indicated that was his problem. Well, this man died. The doctor said he died of alcoholism, but his wife picked up the ball and he was in national news for a while about being radiated out in the Groom Lake area. What year was that, do you remember roughly? Ninety- one or two, I’d say. So that was fairly recent. Yes. So the wife then—? [ 00: 35: 00] She got awarded a lot of money, I understand. So did they prove that it was radiation? No. But they didn’t disprove it, either. It was just that it got public attention. Do you remember his name? Bill Mayer: No. I can look that up if it’s been in the news. [ Robert and Helen Frost, Frost v. Perry]. So when did they take the radiation claims away? It was the late eighties. We didn’t have any filed till all of a sudden the government started issuing things that gave people the idea to file. So you didn���t have any before it starts coming out in the government? Right. That’s really fascinating. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 We really didn’t. There might’ve been some back when Baneberry occurred, but I wasn’t working there then. I think a couple of Wackenhut guards had leukemia as a result of that. But we just didn’t have any radiation. Did you notice in some of the accidents, was alcohol a factor at all, or—? I mean what would—? They didn’t do drug screening at that time, but once they started doing drug screening, when there was an accident, we never heard if they found alcohol. We just didn’t know it. I don’t know if it was kept secret. I think they terminated the employee immediately, but the claim still went on. DOE was very giving. In other words, they always wanted a claim accepted if there was a shadow of a doubt. They didn’t tell us to fight and try to keep the claim from being a workers’ comp claim. I don’t know why they did that, but they wanted the employee taken care of if he actually was injured. And I know now that it’s gone out to different insurances, they fight to the bitter end. I had the opportunity of either being a claims adjuster or an underwriter, and I took the underwriter because I can’t fight. And that’s what they train you to do is to just fight tooth and nail on things like that. Did you ever see a period where the volume of claims was higher than normal? Only those hearing loss claims, when they started coming in. Oh, really? That was it? That was it. Otherwise it was pretty steady? Right. And do you think it was pretty safe out at the test site? Yes, I do. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 17 So there wasn’t undue hazard out there. No. And people followed the OSHA rules and all that. They did. As best we could tell, they did. They had lots of people watching what was going on and supervisors that had to be careful or they would lose their jobs. I’m the supervisor knew about things that shouldn’t have happened but did, that caused a reaction later on. And how did you like the culture of your office? Did you enjoy the people that you worked with? Yes, I did. Lavonne Lewis was my top supervisor. If you were a black lady or a man trying to get a job, you had a much better chance, I thought, than if you were a white male or a white woman. And we got to kidding among ourselves, saying that we were the oppressed, white people. Lavonne really thought education was the thing to do, and looking nice. [ 00: 39: 53] End Track 2, Disc 1. [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 3, Disc 1. So we’re back, and you were saying that the culture was one that you could move up in within your company. You could move and learn different things. Many people that I worked with did not move up. Some stayed at the same place they were when they started fifteen years ago. So it was all within the person himself, if they wanted to ta