Becker, Patricia Interview, 2014 April 15. OH-02082. [Transcript.] Oral History Research Center, Special Collections & Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.
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AN INTERVIEW WITH PATRICIA BECKER An Oral History Conducted by Claytee D. White West Charleston Neighborhoods: An Oral History Project of Ward 1 Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ©The West Charleston Neighborhoods: An Oral History Project of Ward 1 University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV – University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Managers: Claytee D. White, Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Editors: Stefani Evans, Pat Holland, Maggie Lopes, Barbara Tabach Interviewers: Claytee D. White, Barbara Tabach, Shirley Emerson, Lois Goodall, Judy Harrell, Anna Huddleston, Linda McSweeney, Wendy Starkweather ii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of Dr. Harold Boyer. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank the university for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project. Claytee D. White, Project Director Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University Nevada, Las Vegas iiiPREFACE Patricia Becker Patty Becker’s recollections concerning her law career shows her determination and enthusiasm in encouraging women to enter the field. Beginning during a period when few women were accepted to study law, she not only passed the Nevada Bar with high marks but was chosen by Governor O’Callaghan in 1979 to become deputy attorney general. In 1985 she was chosen by Governor Richard Bryan to be the first and only woman selected to serve on Nevada’s Gaming Control Board. She also recollects arguing before the Nevada Supreme Court the case that put Tony Spilotro in the Nevada’s Black Book and working with many proficient attorneys like Oscar Goodman, Patty left the Nevada Gaming Control Board to become general counsel for Hurrah’s Entertainment where she served for nine years and then began Chief of Staff for Governor Bob Miller from 1993 through 1995. Patty also served as senior Vice President of corporate affairs and legal adviser for Aladdin Gaming as well as sitting on several corporate boards. Patty began Patricia Becker and Associates and continues to serve on the board of Fitzgerald’s Hotel and Casino, serves her own clients, as well as teaching at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, in gaming. She encourages women to enter gaming, keep a sense of humor and not to be afraid to speak up for themselves. Meanwhile she challenges herself intellectually and believes that one should always continue to grow personally and professionally. ivTABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Patricia Becker April 15, 2014 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Claytee D. White Preface………………………………………………………………………………………...iv Recalls childhood in Las Vegas, parents children’s shoe store; discusses early city; few school schools, sixth grade centers, and integration at high schools; parents encouraged education; all attended college, sister and brother studied law but Patty became a teacher before law…….1-6 Describes law school and friends at UNR; clerk for Chief Justice of Nevada Supreme Court; Governor O’Callaghan’s state industrial attorney; Supervisor’s Statue passed for hotel employees; recalls hotel entertainment; meeting Frank Sinatra; arguing the case before Nevada Supreme Court that put Tony Spilotro in the Black Book; arguing trial of Freddie Glusman; and her appointment to the State Game Control Board…………………………….…………….6-25 Recollects becoming general counsel for Harrah’s; move to Reno; handled complaint action in Atlantic City; Holiday Inn’s new Promise; becoming member of board of directors of different companies; and Chief of Staff for Governor Bob Miller…………………..…………….....25-40 Married and had son, James; became friends with children of various attorneys, board members and politicians. Patty begins Patricia Becker and Associates, works for Aladdin Hotel and Casino as senior vice president while working for own clients. Moved to La Jolla, California, and returned to Las Vegas to work at UNLV…………………….........................................40-44 Starts event called “Kick Up Your Heels or Stilettos” as fundraiser and opportunity for women in gaming; worked with International Gaming Institute; and G2E (Global Gaming Exposition) encouraging more visibility for women. Recalls being on the board of the Fitzgerald Hotel and learning more about old and new sections of downtown Las Vegas………..………………44-56 v 56 This is Claytee White. It is April 15th, 2014, and I am with Patty Becker in my office at UNLV. Patty, how are you today? I'm fine. Do you prefer Patricia on official documents, Patty? Whenever it's in written form, I put Patricia. But everyone has called me Patty forever. And Becker? Yes. Spelled? B-E-C-K-E-R. Wonderful. Thank you. Now, we're just going to get started by talking about your early life. Tell me about growing up here in Las Vegas, what your parents did for a living and that kind of thing. Las Vegas was a very small town when I grew up here. My parents owned a children's shoe store [ Margaret and Bill Becker owned Children’s Bootery Shoe Store], and they both worked at the shoe store basically six days a week. The town was very inclusive during that era. It didn't have the kind of social strata that you sometimes see now. There were fewer elementary, junior high and high schools. It didn't matter what your parents did for a living. There were people that lived in Rancho Circle that had wealth, but they were treated no differently than any of the rest of us. So you didn't know if somebody's parents ran a shoe store or if they owned a casino. And the social strata really didn't start until I was probably in my last year of high school, so that would have been like 1968-1969, but prior to that everybody were friends with everybody. So your mother worked in the shoe store. 56 My mother did work in the shoe store. She handled the books and she did the ordering. My parents both worked there six days a week. Where was the store located? It was located right on the corner of Bonneville Avenue and Maryland Parkway. But it was like catty corner from the Huntridge Theater. Maryland Parkway? Yes, it was Maryland Parkway and Bonneville Avenue, yes. Good. Did you and your sister ever work at the store? Yes. And I have a brother, also. There are three of us and we all worked at the store. Did you enjoy that? Enjoy...I don't know if any of us enjoyed it. It was mandatory on Saturdays during their busy season, and busy season was before school where we had to be there all the time and right before Easter because everyone got new shoes at Easter. So this is busy season right now. Yes, yes. So we all took our turns working in the store. Great. Now, we did get paid. I have to say my parents did pay us when we worked. So that was nice. And what did you do with the money? Put it for college. We saved for college. What great kids. I don't know if we were great kids. My parents really believed in education. My mother had just a high school diploma. It wasn't as if college was an option for us. They were very strong believers in education. Good. So tell me about your higher education. I know a little. So you started at UNLV 56 [University of Nevada, Las Vegas]. I did. And then you transferred. I did start at UNLV. I actually started the summer of 1969. I know it sounds amazing, but in that era women were basically given the option of being teachers or nurses. To this day I have no science acumen. I'm not good with blood. I'm the one that when my child would throw up, I would have to do everything not to throw up with them. So I knew being a nurse was not an option for me. So I became a schoolteacher. I had to go my first year at UNLV because my father didn't want me to go away from home. So I started dating someone he didn't like, and my second year I got to go away from home. [Laughing] But I didn't get to go far; I just went up to UNR [University of Nevada, Reno]. I basically graduated—well, I did graduate in three years. I went through undergraduate quickly. Actually, I went through law school quickly, too. Are you a genius? No, I'm not. School is easy for me. And I say that with some knowledge here. I have a child who learns differently. Through educating that child I realized that school is not easy for everyone. And up until that point I don't think I really understood that. People always said you were smart or you weren't smart. It really isn't about smarts. It's about whether something's presented in the manner in which you learn. And for me school was relatively easy for me. So after school you worked for one year. Was it in Las Vegas that you worked? I did. I came back and taught second grade. And did you come back to live in the family home? I came back and lived there for one month [laughing] and then moved out with two other 56 women. I actually took a job at night so that I could live on my own. But I did live right by UNLV. The little apartments that are still here right over by the International Gaming Institute, I lived there. I taught second grade at Rex Bell Elementary School. The most interesting thing about that year was it was the year that they integrated the elementary schools in Las Vegas. So it was a very interesting time to teach. So what changes did you see in the classroom? Well, they started the new year by bussing in kindergarten through fifth grade from—I call it the Westside of town, but the African-American children. And then the sixth graders would be sent to a sixth grade center. It was not a pretty situation the first month. Did people act like we saw them on television? It wasn't the African-American people that acted. It was the people that had to have their children bussed for one year that created total havoc. It was very difficult and it made us realize, because of the students that came in, that they weren't getting the same education as everyone else because they came in and they were behind. I mean the parents all came to the family meetings or meetings with teachers. It wasn't as if they didn't have parental support. They did. They just were already behind, even in second grade. So can you imagine what it was like in fifth grade or sixth grade? What I think it really was, was when they went to junior high, they couldn't compete. So it was just the very beginning of trying to make those changes. Thank you. We didn't know that. Oh. We didn't know that. “We,” meaning? I do a lot of research in the African-American community. We just did a really big oral 56 history project and we have a website now. I'll give you the URL so that you can see it. But one of the issues was the sixth grade centers. I've never heard that before. So I really appreciate that information. I think it might be interesting to even interview some African-American kids from Las Vegas where they had to transfer in middle school and realized how hard it was. This is so weird, but my senior year of high school here was when they had the riots. So we had riots in my high school when I was a senior. When we got to go back to school, it was wall to wall policemen. I mean we went in one day and they stood arm in arm, for our first day back. And it was the African Americans that said they weren't being treated appropriately. None of us got it. I was on student council and we didn't even understand. It was so beyond our reasoning that we didn't even understand. And the teachers didn't. And so things changed rapidly. That year there were African-American nominees for prom queen. I mean the kinds of things that sound so strange in this day and age. Yes. But it became much more inclusive. But they rioted and they beat up quite a few children and it was harsh, really harsh. So it was not just Rancho that we've heard so much about. No. This was at Clark High School. So it was Clark High School and Valley High School, as well, then. I'm assuming probably, yeah. It was at Clark High School; I can tell you that. And changes were made, implemented, and they needed to be. So before that did you know any African Americans? Yes. From junior high on we went to school with African Americans. Because my mother 56 worked, there was an African-American woman, Georgia Grayson. She's still part of our family. She came Monday through Saturday and took care of us when my mother worked. And we knew her; we knew her family, her two children. I went to her eightieth birthday party. My sister and brother were there. She came to my dad's birthday party. I mean it was just family. So my—well, how I understand this...My father was the eldest son of a Jewish family. My mother was Irish Catholic. When they got married they eloped and they got married in Tijuana on New Year's Eve. This is all actually accurate, but as you can imagine I have no idea what really occurred. But that is the true story of what happened. But they were ostracized by my father's family. My father went home for like the first two months they were married to his parents' home where he was living until my mother turned up pregnant. So I was raised in a very unusual family. We were not allowed to tell an off-color joke. We were not allowed to tell anything religiously off color or off center. I mean we weren't allowed to swear, but at that time people didn't swear. But it was a very liberal family in regard to being inclusive. And where did the family live? We first lived on Melville Drive, which is over by West Charleston Elementary School. And when I was in fifth grade, they moved to a home over on (Villa Vye Carol), which is about the corner of Sahara Avenue and Decatur Avenue—Arville Street, Sahara Avenue and Arville Street. And from there you went to elementary school. And then how did you get to high school? I walked. You walked to Clark High School? Yes. 56 Because that's not that far. Yes, we walked to Clark High School until—I guess until we were able to drive. And you said something about you couldn't tell the difference in really social status until about the senior year. Why is that? Prom dresses? Oh, no, it wasn't. What an interesting comment, though. Cars. Cars, yes. Yes. All of a sudden—I mean my recollection is one person drove up in a Lamborghini. I swear. That's the God's honest truth. And when we had the riots, a helicopter landed and took two of the students away via helicopter. So, yes. So you knew. You started to know senior year, yes. Around that time you could tell that there was more of a social stratum. Interesting. So how did you decide not to teach any longer, after teaching for—one year? Yes. I love to read. I still love to read. I think what happened is I read To Kill a Mocking Bird when I was probably fifth or sixth grade. And from that point on, any time anyone asked me what I wanted to be, I would say, I want to be a lawyer. Now, remember my parents sold shoes for a living. I had never met a lawyer. But anyone that asked me, I would say, I want to be a lawyer. And my older brother—and my older brother and I are very, very close because he had an identical twin who passed away when I was two and he was four. To this day we still talk a couple of times a week. So he didn't want to get drafted. Remember this was the Vietnam era. So he went to law school so he wouldn't get drafted. And he was in his second year of law school and I was 56 teaching school—or third year maybe he would be. And I asked him if I could do it. And he said you could absolutely do this. And then the other teachers—I was in the teachers' lounge one day and told them I was thinking of taking the LSAT [Law School Admissions Test] and going to law school and they said do it, do it, because at that point if you were female you couldn’t even really go up into administration. You were going to be teaching for the rest of your life. There weren't even female principals at the time. So there wasn't any upward mobility, really, for teachers. That came later. So did you go to the same law school that your brother had attended? I did not. So how did you decide to go to California Western School of Law? They accepted me. It was that simple. How many schools did you apply to? Three, because I didn't have a lot of money, but also because I wanted to live on the West Coast and because I thought it would be cool to live near a beach. And I was clueless, clueless about applying to school or what I should look at, clueless. I had no guidance. I mean I sent letters in with my application that were handwritten. I just didn't even know anything about business or the business community or what was appropriate. How many women in your class? It was less than ten percent. And I was the youngest. I think I was the youngest in the whole class, but I definitely was the youngest female. But you were mature enough to handle this? Hmm. You know I think I might have been mature enough not to know any better. I think sometimes when you're young you just don't know any better. And so I actually think during the 56 middle of my career is where I got more nervous or scared or afraid or concerned that I'd make the wrong step. I don't remember feeling that at the beginning of law school. Were the classes difficult, as difficult as you thought law school was going to be? Yes. Well, I had one professor who called me “Mr. Becker” the entire year, torts professor. So they didn't want you there to begin with. It was a very competitive environment and I had never done anything in a competitive environment because it was before girls played sports. So I was unaccustomed to anything with that kind of competitive nature. It was hard. You didn't really get included in the study groups because they saw you as female; they didn't see you as a peer. So what about the other women? Is that how you got through? Did you study together? I never had a study group. I studied on my own. I'm kind of a loner to begin with. So I think that in some ways it had nothing probably to do with being female. I've always been a little bit of a loner. I did get a very close friend in law school that was female and we did a lot of things together. But most of the women were older. Almost all were divorced. And in retrospect, I think some probably had lifestyle preferences, but we didn't know any of that at the time. You get out. You pass the bar of California and the bar of Nevada. I did, I did. That was huge. That was huge because I went through law school in two and a half years. So I graduated in December. I took the California Bar in February and I passed. And the California Bar had a 36 percent passage rate for that bar, and I passed. And then I came back to Nevada and I took another law review course—not law review, a course to get me ready again for the Nevada Bar. And so I passed the Nevada Bar in July. Amazing. Passing the California Bar was a huge confidence boost, huge, huge. Because you knew the percentages. 56 I knew the percentages. And then everybody else in my class took it the following July and I saw how many didn't pass even in July. So it made me realize that I really could do all of this. Amazing. There are a couple of names I want to ask you about because you helped to plan a Nevada State Women's Conference in 1977. This is right after your moving back and passing the bar. And I saw a photograph of you with Frankie Sue Del Papa and Mary Ellen McCullen. McMullen? McMullen, yes. Yes, yes. So tell me about those two women. Frankie Sue Del Papa was a year ahead of me. I did not know her growing up, but I immediately learned of her. She was a lawyer I think just a year ahead of me. She went to UNR and she was student body president there. She was always a leader, always. But she very much had a political bet. And then Mary Ellen McCullen I had known at UNR because she and her husband, Sam McCullen, were both in my class at UNR. So I knew them there. Okay, wonderful. So at 25 years of age, that same year, 1977, you became the state industrial attorney. Yes. Please tell me about all of that and how it happened. Out of law school I was the clerk for the Chief Justice of the Nevada Supreme Court, Cameron Batjer, who was this amazingly kind gentleman, just the kind of person that at the age that I'm at now I still think if you emulated him in your professional life you couldn't do anything wrong. He just was that above board and charming. 56 Law clerks are just one year in duration. And I had applied every place because I wanted a job. It still was in the era when women lawyers weren’t being hired by law firms. Even District Attorney's Offices were barely hiring them. It wasn't easy to get a job. And I had applied for a couple of state jobs. And one day I got a phone call. And law clerks answered their own phone. You had this little bitty office and you answered your own phone. On the other side was this gentleman. He said his name and he said he was calling on behalf of Governor Michael O'Callaghan and started asking me all these questions. And I started laughing because I thought it was somebody pulling a joke on me. I had no idea why this person would be calling me. And so I started answering the questions and I let it go. About two weeks later I got a phone call from a woman. Our offices at the Supreme Court were directly across the street from the governor's office in Carson City, Nevada. And this woman said the governor would like to see you. And I started laughing again, saying, oh, my god, this is like hysterical. And without pause she said, “Now,” just like that. And I swear to you I realized... I walked across the street. They ushered me in to Governor O'Callaghan's office. I don't know if you've met Governor O'Callaghan, but he had presence, although I don't think I've ever met a governor that didn't have presence. He just started asking me questions and he said I've got this job that just passed the legislature, it's brand-new, it's never been created before, here it is, and it's headquartered in Las Vegas. At the time I was married and I said, “Oh, I can't move back to Las Vegas; my husband works up here.” And he looked at this bill and he goes, oh, I guess it's headquartered here. And he handed me this bill that had just passed and said, “Would you like this job?” 56 So I'm walking back across the street and I'm reading it. At the time I made $15,000. And I'm reading it and it says in there that the state industrial attorney got paid $25,000. I swear to you I picked up the phone when I got back to my office and I told him I accept. I had said, “Oh, I have to think about this; I have to talk to my husband.” [Laughing] He said it was the shortest time anyone had ever thought about a job. So then I went and I got to create the whole office. I created the office of Northern Nevada. I hired a deputy for Southern Nevada. Tell me about that work. Tell me about helping people with their rights. It was kind of like a public defender. We represented indigent people who had been injured on the job and didn't feel like they were getting appropriate care by the worker's compensation system. So it was a lot of very frustrated, unhappy people. I did enormous amounts of administrative hearings. In addition, we went and took depositions of doctors and all of those kinds of things. So I really learned some of how to practice law. Exactly. So how many cases are we talking about in a month? Oh. We probably had maybe—I don't even know—maybe 20 or 30 a month. What kind of staff were you able to have? Just one. I mean I had an administrative assistant in Northern Nevada, there was a lawyer in Southern Nevada, and he had an administrative assistant. That was it and all of that work. Yes. We worked hard. Not as hard as some of the other jobs I had. But it was fun. We were young and we were the boss. [Laughing] Being boss is fun. Now, you also made a major change over time, didn't you? There was something about the speed of people's cases being heard. 56 Yes, we did. And you were able to do something about that. I did. You really did do some research. Oh, yes. We have great sources here. People, when they're injured—and it's probably the same today—the longer you're out of work, the harder it is to get them back to work. And so the hearing system was taking years. And so once they had been out of work that long, it was a lost cause. So the next legislative session I went over and testified and lobbied. An appeals officer had to have a decision rendered I think it was in 60 days. So people got finality much earlier and they got help faster. What kinds of jobs are we talking about that would come to your office? Anything. A lot of them were laborers, construction workers that got hurt on the job. There were plumbers. There were meat cutters. It was just anyone that couldn't afford to hire their own attorney. And this was a four-year appointment. What happened? How long did you stay there? I think a little over two years I stayed there. Actually, Dick Bryan had seen me testify at the Nevada Legislature and I knew somebody who was working in his office. And I went over and talked with him. Because I had a four-year term appointment, I knew I could negotiate a little bit as to what I would take. And I told him that I wanted to be in gaming because that was like the most sought after AG's position and there had never been a female AG over there. And he said, ah, I'll keep that in mind. Then after the session he got a new position. It was half-time in gaming and a half-time in the central office, and he had me go and interview with Ray Pike and Phil Pro, who were the two deputies that had been over in gaming. They hired me. So I was supposed to be half-time 56 gaming and half-time central office, but within a month of when I was there was when the Aladdin Hotel and Casino occurred. I mean it was just amazing. It was amazing. Tell me all you can about the Aladdin Hotel and Casino. Well, there had been wiretaps out of Kansas City that established that there were somebody other than the licensed owners who owned the Aladdin Hotel and Casino. And the Gaming Control Board waited until there were convictions on those wiretaps so that they could be made, then, public. And mind you that took years. So the wiretaps had occurred quite a few years before. And the Gaming Control Board at that time decided that they were going to close the Aladdin Hotel and Casino based on this hidden ownership and they went in and counted down the money and closed it. It only stayed closed for a short period of time. But it was fascinating, fascinating. So what was your role in that? I did anything that the more seasoned lawyers, Phil Pike and Ray Pro, wanted me to do. I went to the law library and copied cases for them. One of the things I did is take over some of the other work so that they could free up, because they both had a lot more court experience than I did. So at that time one of the things that had been pending was the bill of particulars to put Frank “Lefty” Rosenthal in the List of Excluded Persons. So I drafted that, which wasn't as difficult as it sounds because it just wasn't. It's like taking a form and making sure you have everything in there, appropriately. So I tried to do anything I could to assist them. And “Lefty”Rosenthal was at the Stardust Hotel and Casino at that time? Yes, he would have been at the Stardust Hotel and Casino at that time, yes. So all of these casinos are being examined at the same time? Yes. The hidden ownership and the tapes were basically on the Stardust Hotel and Casino and the Aladdin Hotel and Casino. The Aladdin Hotel and Casino was just the first one they closed. 56 Then they went after the Stardust Hotel and Casino, I think, because there were two Stardust Hotel and Casino cases. The first Stardust Hotel and Casino case I wasn't there. I'm trying to think. I don't remember that. So I wasn't at the Gaming Control Board during the first Stardust Hotel and Casino case. I was there for the Aladdin Hotel and Casino case and that was as counsel. I was there when the new owners of the Stardust Hotel and Casino got approved. So I must have just missed when they took away the license. So what happens when the process is—they countdown the money and then they close the building? That's what they did at the Aladdin Hotel and Casino. The Aladdin Hotel and Casino lawyers went to federal court and got an injunction. So it was only closed a few hours. And Judge Harry Claiborne was the judge? Yes, he issued the injunction. That is correct. Years later it went up to the Ninth Circuit Court and they said that he should not have issued that. But at the time, although all of us thought we were horribly wronged and probably on the law we were, there was a public outcry because of all of the people that were going to be put out of work. They would have put 3,000 people out of work. Those people hadn't done anything wrong. So in the next legislative session we passed what's called the Supervisor's Statue, which now allows a supervisor to come in and take over a property and run it so you don't actually put the employees who are really unknowing out of work. A lot of casino employees live paycheck to paycheck. And university employees. Yes. And so in retrospect, maybe even though the judge wasn't legally correct, it probably may have been better for the community that it ended up staying open until it was sold. Right. And a corporate person came in to buy the Aladdin Hotel and Casino at that time, 56 or did we have another family? I have to think about who bought it. You also worked on a case, I believe, at the Desert Inn Hotel and Casino? Yeah. I argued the marker case, which was whether or not uncollected markers should be taxed for purposes of gaming revenue. And I argued that case before the Nevada Supreme Court. Against Bob Fess? I did. I did. How did that feel? You must have been about 28 at the time. I was pretty young. I was pretty young and he was fairly seasoned. Yes. But surprisingly, the court ruled in the state's favor. However, that's another one that immediately the legislature acted. There was a negotiated compromise as to what the companies should do. And if they followed a procedure, like A through F, then they did not have to include uncollected revenue as in the casino markers. Actually, that was also another good outcome because it set procedures that they had to follow because before that the auditors were always concerned that it was just another way to skim money because you could give markers to somebody and then just not collect the money. Who would know whether the markers were appropriately issued? Remember this was kind of a different era. Oh, yes, different town. Stopping right here, we're at 1980 where you argued the case against Bob Fess. What kind of entertainment did your parents enjoy in Las Vegas? Entertainment? Yes. Did they go to shows? People talk about how everybody is comped during those days. Did your parents enjoy any of that? 56 That's interesting. Not really. I remember as a child we would go down on the Strip to the Thunderbird Hotel and Casino for like the Sunday brunch. My parents went out every Friday night and I think sometimes and maybe they would get a comp here or a comp there. But they didn't gamble. My father played poker at the time with a private group of men. But I don't remember seeing them gamble. What did your mother wear when she would go out on those Friday nights? Oh. Shirtwaist dresses. Yes, yes. She wore a dress to work every day until she got older, until years later. And they would have dinner and go to a show? I don't think they would go to a show because they would work on Saturdays. I don't think they went to a lot of shows. On our birthdays they would take us—they used to have the traveling Broadway shows. So on each of our birthdays we would get to go to one of those. That was a big deal. So like our