Transcript of interview with Tony Scodwell by Lisa Gioia-Acres, September 29, 2008

i An Interview with Tony Scodwell An Oral History Conducted by Lisa Gioia - Acres September 29, 2008 All That Jazz Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ©All That Jazz Oral History Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2008 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV – University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Editors: Barbara Tabach, Melissa Robinson, Angela Ayers Transcribers: Kristin Hicks Interviewers and Project Assistants: Lisa Gioia-Acres and Claytee D. White iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of Harold L. Boyer Charitable Foundation. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the All That Jazz Oral History Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University Nevada Las Vegas iv Table of Contents Interview with Tony Scodwell September 29, 2008 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Lisa Gioia - Acres Preface………………………………………………………………………………………..…..v Tony talks about his family history. Tony discusses having his own band and giving concerts in his home town. Tony recalls his band director in high school. Tony talks about also learning to play the mellophonium………………………………………………………………………..1 – 5 Tony remembers taking aptitude tests to work in the local industries. Tony talks about making trumpets as well as playing them…………………………………………………………….6 – 10 Tony discusses playing at the Frontier with Siegfried and Roy. Tony talks about talking a break from music for a couple of years. Tony recalls playing with Doc Severinsen’s Band when he came back from his break…………………………………………………………………..10 – 13 Tony recalls being the road manager for Doc Severinsen’s band. Tony talks about playing with the Stan Kenton band and the Tommy Dorsey band……………………………………….13 – 18 Tony recalls being called to play with Harry James. Tony remembers playing moving to Las Vegas and then on to Reno before going on the road once more. Tony talks about returning to Las Vegas permanently and getting married. Tony talks more about the photography he currently does…………………………………………………………………………………………18 – 25 Index………………………………………………………………………………………..26 – 29 Appendix (Photographs)……………………………………………………………………30 – 35 v Preface Tony was born the only son of the only son in Beloit, Wisconsin. Following his parents divorce when he was 12, he and his father went to live with his grandparents who, he admits, spoiled him. While neither of his parents played a musical instrument, Tony’s grandmother was a professional organist. In addition, Tony had an uncle who was a professional saxophone player and who was an inspiration to him. Tony’s dad was very supportive of his decision to learn trumpet and rented Tony an instrument, took him to his lessens, and sat with him while he practiced. Tony was firm in his convictions by the 9th grade that he was going to be a musician. Following high school, Tony was awarded a full scholarship to the Berklee School of Music in Boston which was a very prestigious music school. Tony repeatedly left school to go on the road which the school fully expected of their students. The last time he left the school he never went back. Tony states he got his degree on the road with experience from playing in bands like Stan Kenton, Tommy Dorsey, and with his idol Harry James. Tony took his career abroad when he took up residence in Cologne, Germany to play with a band there. Tony came to Las Vegas to play in a band with Buddy Rich which turned out to be of a shorter duration than he expected. Tony then played in Las Vegas and Reno for a time before going back on the road after realizing he preferred playing jazz on the road as opposed to playing in show bands. After eight years on the road, Tony returned to Las Vegas, got married, and settled down. Aptitude tests proved accurate when they showed Tony had a talent for things mechanical and metal as Tony went on to manufacture trumpets in addition to playing them. One can feel the love Tony has for his trumpets as he describes the process of creating them. After playing trumpet for almost 30 years, Tony decided it was time to concentrate on his photography for a while. Tony does not consider himself retired, but rather he likes to play, take pictures, and, of course, he practices the trumpet every day. vi 1 This is Lisa Gioia-Acres. Today is September 29, 2008. I'm here in the home of Tony Scodwell conducting an oral history interview for the All That Jazz oral history for the university. Hi, Tony. Hello, Lisa. How are you? Good. Thanks so much for having me in your home and giving up of your time to talk about your life and times as a musician here in Las Vegas. But before we do that I need to ask just a couple of basic questions. Your full name and the original name because I know it's not Tony? No. The full name and proper name on my birth certificate is Anton, A-N-T-O-N, John Scodwell, Junior. Tony is, I guess, official because that's on my Social Security card as well. So how that happened I never have been able to find out, but it's too late to change it now. What was the origination of the name Scodwell and could you spell it? Scodvillus, S-C-O-D-V-I-L-L-U-S. Its derivation is Lithuanian. My grandparents on my father's side came from Lithuania in 1906, emigrated through New York. And because in those days a lot of families stayed close together when they came from the old countries, some friends and relatives had moved to southern Wisconsin via Chicago because that was kind of a headquarters, and Cleveland by the way, for Lithuanian-type people, that's where they ended up. My grandfather worked hard his whole life in a paper foundry, and my grandmother cooked. When my parents got divorced in 1952, my father and I lived with my grandma and grandpa. And I didn't realize how good I had it when I'd wake up in the morning. Being the only son of the only son I was so spoiled. I just grew to expect like doesn't everybody eat like this in the morning? Don't they have hand-catered, you know, what would you like today, Sonny boy? That was me, Sonny boy. So I got spoiled real quick. And my wife still reminds me about that. That was then. This is now, buddy. Yes. This is definitely now get to work. So tell me about mom and dad. What were their names and what were their occupations? Mother was Joyce Marie Conery. She just recently passed away; 91 years old. My father is Anton John Scodwell, Senior. That was always a source of confusion, too. 2 My father was a fire chief when he retired in Wisconsin in this little town of Beloit, B-E-L-O-I-T. He had a lot of friends, and, of course, through his friends I had a lot of friends. And when I started playing music, I did a series of concerts in that area because I've always been big in Beloit, but you know how that goes? A little town of 30,000 people and the only guy to actually go out and play with stars and big bands. Anyway, I'd give concerts. My dad's friends became my friends. So there was always some kind of confusion of which one they were coming to see. It was weird. My dad doesn't even play a radio. He has a hard time with anything. So they thought maybe it was senior that was actually a musician? Yes. And I got in the newspapers and pictures and things. So eventually they figured out that it was, indeed, Tony Junior. But it was fun. My grandfather's name, by the way, is John Anton. So it's just a flip-flop. Grandpa John. So let's see what else? Where were we? Mom, did she work outside the home? Mom was Joyce Marie Conery, C-O-N-E-R-Y, Irish-Norwegian. Her grandparents came respectively from Ireland and Norway. My grandmother came from Ireland. Grandpa Olson was his name, John Olson, came from Norway. In those days, when my dad was working on both the police department and the fire department during World War II, she was at home. She loved music. There's a band out of Chicago by the name of Eddy Howard. It was a sweet dance band. [singing "To Each His Own."] A big hit record for Eddy Howard in the ‘40s. Anyway, the band would come through town, and they would always hang out at our house. So I guess I was exposed to traveling minstrels in those days without being aware of it. My uncle George Stynoski, my father's sister's husband, was a professional saxophone player from Chicago and a good one. He was my inspiration I think musically. For whatever reason -- I don't know why kids pick instruments -- but I picked trumpet. I guess saxophone player would have been logical. But, no, I wanted to play trumpet. So he got a couple of his trumpet friends over. I think I was fifth grade I believe. How old would you be in fifth grade? I don't remember. Eight or nine. Yes, probably about nine, ten, maybe. So I went over with Uncle George and we hung out in his living room. These guys showed me how to push the buttons down on a trumpet that my dad had gone out and rented for me. Based on you saying I want to play? 3 I knew I wanted to play something musically. Again, I really don't know -- I know my father loved Louis Armstrong. Who doesn't? And I heard a lot of Louis Armstrong records at home. So maybe that was it. And, certainly, that's not a bad inspiration. And so for you it wasn't a passing phase, just I'm going to give this a try? You stuck with it? Well, you know how kids are. My dad made me. Again, he was nonmusical. But he would go to my lessons with me and come home and sit with me while I practiced. And I had to practice because for the first couple of years kids don't want to practice. It's very easy for kids to give it up initially. But once you get a little bit proficient on the instrument, then you can't stop and then you practice all the time. So by this point I'm in junior high school and I'm learning the stuff you learn and associations with other kids and things. And one thing led to another. I had my own little band at that time Tony and His Tigers, which is kind of cute. We would go out and play church socials. And we'd take the cymbal off the drums upside down and pass it around. We just thought that was hog heaven. We'd make two or three bucks. And then we'd go down to the bowling alley and the whole band would go down and bowl on Saturday afternoon with that money. So we had fun. We got actually pretty good, pretty good Dixieland band. And, of course, when I got into high school I wanted a big band. And the high school big band in those days preceded the stage band movement they call it. Now every school has a jazz program and stage bands and concert stage bands and every facet because there's a lot more teachers out there than players. And these teachers need to do something. And they end up teaching kids how to play jazz, ostensibly teach them how. What high school did you go to? Beloit Memorial High School, home of the Purple Knights. I think it's great. My high school was like, I’d say, 450 kids. That was my graduating class, not small, not huge, good size and a good band director, old Donald Cuthbert was a good band director, ex-cornet player as opposed to trumpet player. He indoctrinated me with all the great old cornet solos. And we had a regular contest basis. Every couple of months we'd have a contest and have to prepare a solo and perform it generally with a pianist and in solo competition. So I had through my grandmother, who was a professional organist, my mother's mother, at cocktail lounges, you know, the Hammond B3. Mable Sweeney at the 4 Hammond B3. She worked all the time in the best little cocktail lounges and restaurants in Beloit. Did you ever play with her? Yes. Later on. Yes. I would go out and we'd play tunes together. She was real good. But everything she played was by ear. And she played in keys that were not necessarily favorable keys for a trumpet. Let's put it that way. The black keys or the white keys, you know how that goes. But we played. And by that point I had enough of a good ear that I could play just about anything with her. It was great. She loved it. God, she had this huge Hammond set up in her living room, of course, when she was working with the Leslie speakers. You know, the woom-woom-woom-woom sound. Did you ever pick up anything besides the trumpet? No. Well, that's not necessarily true. A similar instrument. I'll show you. I've seen that before. Well, I don't know. You're not old enough. In Stan Kenton Orchestra, which was a fairly highly regarded jazz band -- Billy Root played with them as well -- a big concert jazz band, five trumpets, five saxes, five trombones and piano, bass, drums. Stan saw fit to add four of these, which is a mellophonium. The mellophone was an existing instrument that a lot of marching bands used because, one, it has piston valves and the bell would come this way, and they were better to march with. French horns on their best day are a precarious instrument to play. So when you're out marching and bouncing around, this was a little bit more suitable. Plus, it gave the reasonable approximation of the sound. But anyway, Stan Kenton added four mellophoniums. And I was going at the time to the Berklee School of Music after I got out of high school. I got a full scholarship from the music magazine Downbeat, which was kind of neat. So off to this most prestigious music school, which at the time there were only two, North Texas State in Denton, Texas -- And you said it was Berklee? Berklee, B-E-R-K-L-E-E. And what city is that? Boston. It still exists. It's huge. It's still one of the world famous music schools for jazz players, and it's big now. I mean when I was there it was in a two-story apartment building right off Mass Avenue on Beacon Street -- Newbury. I'm sorry. Beacon was one over. Now it's a huge, huge, huge complex. It's become somewhat of a guitar-drum factory basically because that's what -- 5 Is this workable? Yes. Anyway, we had four of these. I'll be happy to play you records of the band when we get done. But it's pitched in the key of F, which is unlike a trumpet. Go ahead. [Playing the mellophonium] Very nice. It's a unique sound. And the way the arrangers wrote for this instrument -- with Kenton there was always four of us, of course, and two would play up the octave and two would play down the octave in unison. And we'd play like [singing a tune] on the mellophoniums. [Playing on mellophonium] As you can hear this isn't an instrument you just pick up casually and play in tune. It's a real bastard as far as being in tune. So you have to live with this horn every day like we did on the road. And the section -- again, I'll play you records of my section -- I was playing first mellophonium with the orchestra and played all the solos, which was kind of neat because at the time it was featured instrument with Stan Kenton. So standing in front of like 17,000 people at the old Madison Square Gardens and looking up at tiers and tiers of jazz fans, I was like 18, 19 years old. I didn't know enough to be scared. Was it in high school that jazz became kind of a passion for you? Yes. You know, actually, I can pinpoint it virtually to when I was in ninth grade in junior high in those days. We went seventh, eighth, ninth in what's now called middle school I guess and then went to high school as a sophomore, junior, senior. In ninth grade I was fairly proficient by that point on my cornet playing and trumpet playing. I knew. I said I'm going to be a musician. My goal was then, at that tender young age, to go down to Chicago because my love has always been photography and music and work in a camera store -- the big one there was called Altman's -- to make a living and knock on guys' doors and study with the best guys and start to work hopefully in Chicago, which was a good town for music in those days, a very good town. Was there any question from your dad that maybe he wanted you to go and be a fireman? Well, my father, if anything, is totally practical and very realistic but a hundred percent supportive of me and was and still is to this day. He's 95 years old. He made me take aptitude tests because our little town in Beloit was a pretty industrialized town with a big company called Fairbanks Morris, which made 6 submarine V-12 motors, train engines, desalination plants, huge big things like that, huge factory, employed a lot of people. Then there was the Beloit Corporation that my grandfather worked at that was, I believe, the largest in the world paper-making machinery. They made the big presses that squeezed the pulp into paper and all that stuff for the paper mills, which, of course, up in northern Wisconsin is big business with Kimberly-Clark and those folks. Then Yates-American Machine, a big tool and die machine company. Warner Electric Brake and Clutch, to this day those are the brakes of choice on huge semis and that sort of stuff. So anyway, big stuff and big companies. So I went down -- I don't remember -- but I took this aptitude test for one of those factories. It turns out that I've got an uncanny feel -- I guess that's the word -- for things mechanical and metal. My aptitude is there. I guess that's maybe why I graduated from not only playing trumpet but to make them. Oh, I didn't know that. Those are mine right there as a matter of fact. Here's one that's brand-new. And I've only made about -- I think that's number 176 since 1988. So it's not like I'm a threat to the big companies, but they're sought after. If you Google my name, you'll see Chuck Levin's Washington Music Center outside of Washington, D.C. It's the only distributor I've got, and they're a huge music store around the world. They're huge. And they sell my horns. And as fast as I can send them one, they've sold it. That brings me to a question. What makes a horn unique? What makes one that you make different from what somebody else makes? Well, the primary reason my horns play, I think, better is because this part of it, the bell, I anneal very carefully, which means heat treat, at a very specific time and temperature before it's mounted to the trumpet. I make the leadpipe. Now, these parts are made for me to my specifications on my tools that I just don't have the -- I'm not going to ever make enough to justify the machinery to make valves, which are extremely hard to make and fit to very close tolerances. So the manufacturer, you give them specifications? Right. For example, for this mandrel that the bell is formed on, I have paid a thousand bucks to have the tool made. The little stamp down here is 200 bucks. I mean it's -- but you've got to have it. So at any rate, my horns, why are they more special? A trumpet is a combination of ingredients that should be in harmony with one another and produce an end result of a sound that a trumpet player wants to get or needs to get in a certain situation. And with me a purity of sound, the carrying power of 7 the tone, the brilliance of it without being paper-shredding bright with a good core that the player can rely on; thereby, making his workload easier as a player because as you can see a trumpet is a physical instrument, and you work pretty hard playing brass instruments in general. And trumpets get the high notes. You get to set the style in the band. You get to play the loudest most of the time. So you generate a lot of internal pressures within your body air wise. It's fairly physical. I mean I'm hardly an athlete. But I'll tell you two things that are in shape: my breathing apparatus and my facial structure. Because I noticed that when you were playing the other instrument. I mean it takes a lot of effort to -- That's actually fairly easy compared to these. For whatever reason, it's easier to play high notes on it maybe because the bore size is smaller and that internal pressure that you're fighting all the time backs up on you sometimes. Anyway, your question was why are mine better? Well, I put prototypes together for several bigger companies over the years. And I got to know by hanging out with these companies kind of what worked and what didn't work as far as certain specifications and lengths and materials. I would put horn prototypes together for these folks and watch them not really make them very well in a production line basis because, you know, they're making a hundred thousand horns a year or something. Like I said I'm up to 176 since 1988. So I figured that the only way I'm going to get my horns to play like I know they can is to build them myself. So I started in '88 making my first trumpet. I still got guys waiting in line for them who are -- they love them. It's all word-of-mouth. Well, Chuck Levin -- How long does it take to -- About 40 hours from beginning to end, total time. And where does it get put together? Oh, I put them together. All right. So where does the -- The finish on them? No. When somebody's going to make this, where are the tools? Oh. The valve section and the bells are made in Anaheim, California. The leadpipes I source out of a little shop in Wisconsin, these parts. Some parts come from around the country primarily Anaheim, California, 8 where the Kanstul, K-A-N-S-T-U-L, Musical Instrument Company is a big manufacturer and makes a lot of parts for guys like me who are making like a boutique little industry of custom horns. And then, lastly, you said you heat it up before you put it together. How do you do that? Well, let me go through the procedure. I just think this is fascinating. Well, things that don't vary are the end of this. It's called the leadpipe, the venturi, the opening. That's inside this receiver, which accepts the mouthpiece. It has to be a specific, extremely carefully controlled opening size, which is, again, different than some. But with me I know what works and that's why I stay with it. Absolutely exact as I can make this assembly, this is all prescribed. I mean the lengths are fixed because the trumpet is a fixed air column length and you can't vary it or it's not B flat. Longer gets flatter and shorter gets sharper. So to be at a B flat it has to be a certain overall length. So none of that varies. These valves are made like I say to my specifications. And they're fit within -- this is a metal called monel, which is molybdenum and steel, alloy, very, very hard, very, very durable. And it goes inside brass. Now, the wear factor -- the oil that you use on a trumpet is very thin. It's almost like water because the clearances are 3/10,000ths between that piston and the casing, very, very tight clearances. Oh, I can hear it. That's air not leaking around the valve ports, which is one of the reasons that trumpets respond. When a trumpet player blows in them, the note happens immediately, and that's the response. And that's critical. That's why my valves, I fit them. I make them fit. The slide, same way. They have to be tight. You don't want air leaking anywhere but here. So then I take the bell. I get this whole assembly done, which is always the same. And I've taken bells and I've heat treated them in an oven for -- this part here is all -- 850-degrees for one half-hour. In a regular conventional oven? Well, not a lot of people realize that a home oven when you self-clean heats at 850 degrees, which happens to be the temperature I want it. So basically, yes, I use an old beat-up GE oven that used to be in the house here when we moved. I used to use my friends' ovens, which was always funny. Hey, you want to bake some trumpet bells today? So anyway, it's very carefully controlled. What it does is it aligns the molecular structure of the brass uniformly. If you go hotter brass melts I think at 1143 degrees. You don't want to get it up near melting. 9 That softens the brass. There's a combination of a point between it being a hard brittle or soft without zing. And I want the sound quality to be a certain way and I want the response of the instrument to be the certain way. It's not my invention, if that's the word. A good friend of mine who was involved in this sort of stuff taught me this trick. Anyway, I'm using that. Then I will mount this little thing here, just a connector, a ferral. And I'll just start sticking bells on and I'll blow on them. And I'll get my friends over, good trumpet players, and we'll play them back and forth and pick a bell out of a batch to mount up to an existing valve section. And not every bell works with every valve section. It's funny. It's all about balance and it's all about harmony, what works with what. So this bell worked on this horn, obviously, and may not work on that one. And that bell may not work on this one. It doesn't hurt to be able to play them as well as I do. Let's put it that way. Most instrument manufacturers don't have a player of my caliber to play each horn. They make, 1) too many, and 2) a good player is not going to be working in a trumpet factory. He's going to be out playing. And, 3) most good trumpet players don't have a clue what makes a trumpet work. So I've got a distinct advantage in that area. Another question I have is while you're playing your trumpet can you hear that it's good? Yes. Oh, you feel it and hear it. What the trumpet player hears behind the instrument is not always the same as what someone out front is going to hear. So it's got to be a combination because the only way you formulate your tone and how you're playing the instrument volume wise or whatever is from what you hear and feel. And so that's one of the reasons my trumpets have, I think, an advantage because they give the trumpet player not only feedback good on your ears but against your face. I don't put a brace -- most trumpets have a brace here and here. And I do not put one here because I want this bell to vibrate as a unit. And this to me impedes that kind of sound. And this brace up here gets -- this one gets mounted. This gets mounted. This gets mounted. And then this brace here may vary from here to there. There's a sweet spot on every bell that resonates. And I pick a piece of heavy metal as I'm playing and move that back and forth, play through a lot of registers, a lot of notes for a long time. Sometimes it's instantaneous. There's no question where it is. Sometimes you've got to look a little bit. But I've had as many as six really good trumpet players do this with me. And within an eighth of an inch we arrive at the same spot blindfolded. So it's not hocus-pocus. 10 There is a spot on these bells that does enhance what I'm looking for. Do you only play with your trumpets that you created now? Well, I do now. I don't have any reason to play anything else. That's fascinating. I had Doc Severinsen playing my horn for a year and a half. But Doc's not a good example because he's on the elusive search for the perfect trumpet and mouthpiece at all times. So he never settles on anything. How did you come to play with Doc Severinsen? Well, we knew each other since the early ‘60s when he was affiliated with one of these little companies in Wisconsin that I did some work for, design work. I used to, when I was off the road in those days with either Stan Kenton or Harry James, go to this factory, which was 30 miles away from my hometown. In those days it was a hotbed of good instrument makers. Getzen Company and the Holton Company were right there in Elkhorn, Wisconsin. And the other hotbed was Elkhart, Indiana. So I would go over to Getzen because I got to know those guys. Then one thing led to another like I say. Doc was doing a trumpet for them at the time called the Severinsen Model Getzen Eterna, and I was involved with that a little bit. We'd play horns back and forth at the factory. We became friends. Every time I was in New York and "The Tonight Show" was in New York, I'd go hang out and hook up with Doc. Then they moved to L.A. (Los Angeles) and did the same thing. He was always calling me because of my love of cars, and he knew that I restored cars and loved them and knew what I was doing. So he would always call me with car questions. Like I say "The Tonight Show" made him famous no question about it. Without Johnny Carson I think Doc would just be another really great trumpet player. But 30 years of face time on Carson was not bad. He's more famous than the most famous big bandleaders were ever in their day because of television. Did you play on "The Tonight Show" as well with him? I played on the show twice with different bands, but never on his band. So when the show went off the air in '92, Doc kept calling. Just to backtrack a bit, I finished at the Frontier hotel with Siegfried and Roy in 1988. And the hotel was sold to the Elardi family and they closed the showroom, which was kind of a shame because I mean it was a great showroom and it always did good business and there was quite a roster of stars that were there on a regular basis that always drew well. Well, anyway, Mrs. Elardi decided that a showroom wasn't in her future and they made a buffet out of it. 11 At any rate, that's another subject. But that's general of the direction the town was going in this those days anyway. So in 1988, I decided, you know, Tony you've been playing professionally since about 1959 and at a very high level since 1962 on. I figured, you know, that's a good run. Maybe it's time to pursue photography and forget about the trumpet because the town was going downhill fast for musicians. Well, I understand that you're a photographer as well. It sounds like photography came into your life early on, though. Yes, literally since junior high school I was working for the local camera store guy who was a commercial photographer. I would be up in his darkroom printing pictures of the local baseball team or the cheerleaders or whatever he shot. And then I did, of course, all the yearbook work with high school yearbooks. I've always loved photography and I'm way better now than I was then. But I was better than my contemporaries. Let's put it that way. So I always enjoyed it and I actually made a living at it. I prided myself on not having to shoot anything I didn't want to. Of course, I had the luxury of playing full time at the time. So I would do an ad for like Sonor drum company. And I was working with Harry James. And the great Sonny Payne was the drummer and he played Sonor drums. So they would book me to shoot Sonny for their full-page ads in magazines. And I would do things like that. Because we were in Las Vegas quite a bit there, I would work opposite a lot of people and shoot their publicity pictures and that sort of stuff. Well, anyway, after that run at the Frontier when the hotel closed the showroom, I really did quit playing for two years. I was convinced that there was nothing. I said why do I practice two, three hours a day for no work? And in hindsight, it was dumb because you don't get it back in a day or a two. It took me two years. Doc, nice man that he is, kept calling me and saying, listen, the show's off the air, but I'm still taking "The Tonight Show" Band out, the big band. Except he couldn't call it The Tonight Show Band. He had to call it Doc Severinsen and His Big Band. Everybody knew, of course, it was "The Tonight Show" Band. And he was out playing concerts all the time. And he said I need a first trumpet player. Come on. You need to go. I said, Doc, I'm not working. I'm not playing. I wouldn't do it to you; I wouldn't do it to myself. I would go out and embarrass myself and I wouldn't do that. Ah, come on. Anyway, he kept calling. And I said finally, listen, I got a friend here in town Tom DeLibero. He's 12 a great, great lead trumpet player. He will do a good job for you. And they went out for a month and he called me back. And he said, Tony, you were right; Tom DeLibero is fantastic. Thank you. About six months went by. And Doc calls up again and said, okay, here's the deal. You've got two months to get in shape. You're not going to be playing lead.