Transcript of interview with John Boyle by Meghan Boyle, March 14, 1981

UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 1 Interview with John Boyle An Oral History Conducted by Meghan Boyle Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 2 The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 3 Abstract Meghan Boyle interviews her father John Boyle (born 1924 in Risen, Arkansas), who at the time was Chief Pilot of Operations for Republic Airlines. The two discuss changes in air travel over the years and John’s profession as a pilot. They also discuss improvements in Las Vegas roads over the years, the rise in crime rates, and the impacts on changes in the economy. UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 4 The date is March 14th, and I’m conducting an interview of John Boyle. This is Meghan Boyle. We’re situated at 2099 Bridlewood Drive, Las Vegas, Nevada. Can you tell me when you first came to Las Vegas? I first came to Las Vegas in the summer of 1947. A friend of mine and I drove over from Los Angeles in a rather beat up jalopy. The trip itself took about nine hours in some rather treacherous roads, as I remember. Coming into town was one street, two-lane traffic, and there wasn’t much of anything to see as you went down what is currently the Strip until you got to the Downtown scenario. Most of Downtown was just about six square blocks, with one gambling hall sitting right next to the other one. What were the people generally like? I mean, were they— Very, very nice people – some of the nicest people I’ve ever met. They were easy to get along with. Was it a town full of a lot of strangers like it is now? No. Gambling was not near as big then as it is now. Most of the people here – well, I shouldn’t say most, but a lot of the people here were here permanently. They were here to stay. Of course, we were having a lot of visitors as what it was, keeping the town moving. But you have to remember, the Strip was not in existence then other than just a couple places. And it didn’t take as many people then to keep the economy moving as it does today. So the economy wasn’t basically gambling (unintelligible)? Well, it was basically gambling, but it was a slower town. It was a slower pace. And what we could get along with in those days, you couldn’t get along with now, as far as the economy is concerned. Were there a lot of entertainers living in Las Vegas? UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 5 Not so many then as there is now. Of course, the tax structure being what it is in Nevada caused a lot of the entertainers to move to Nevada as their permanent home. I can’t recall anyone living here then on a permanent basis. Okay. You’re chief pilot of Republic for the Las Vegas Terminal, aren’t you? Chief Pilot of Operations? Yes, I’m currently the chief pilot for Republic Airlines. I was chief pilot for Bonanza Airlines in 1960 through about 1966. Okay, can you tell me what the major changes are – let’s not go into the changes right now. What was it like back around 1954 or in that general time? Well, I moved into Las Vegas in 1952 permanently to go to work for Bonanza Airlines, which at that time had two-and-a-half DC-3s. The two DC-3s were operating; the other one was scattered around the hangar floor. They were trying to assemble it and get it together. And that was the beginning – a major beginning of Bonanza Airlines. And that’s when we picked up the roots between Las Vegas and Phoenix, and Phoenix and Los Angeles. Up until that time, the only route was operated between Las Vegas and Tonopah, Hawthorne, Minden, and Reno. I suppose the airport here must have had a big effect – direct effect – on the economy of Las Vegas, ‘cause it’s the main transportation. The roads were quite a bit – Yes, that’s true. More difficult to come by, and there were not quite as many cities in Arizona. That’s true. The biggest boon, I would say, to Las Vegas was McCarran Airport. This was a good facility, and people, a way to get into town and out of town quickly, as I said earlier, the roads into town were rather antiquated, and actually they were quite dangerous. It was much safer to fly than it was to drive anywhere. And airline rates, being what they were in those days, UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 6 you could afford to fly and just about as cheap as you could drive your car anyway and certainly save yourself all that time. In those days, it was nothing to crank up your airplane and find Bing Crosby, Bob Hope, or Rosemary Clooney in the back, going up to Reno, maybe, for a show. Sammy Davis Junior was aboard quite frequently along with Mary Kay, the Mary Kay trio. Did you ever get a chance to meet up with Hughes himself? I met Mister Hughes in 1952 – excuse me, it was early 1953. He came to Las Vegas in a Convair airplane. And he told his copilot to be ready to go, and within the next few hours. But if you knew Mister Hughes – I have a lot of respect for the gentleman – but that copilot stayed in Las Vegas long enough to meet a girl, get married, and have a baby before Mister Hughes decided to have that airplane and leave Nevada. He did leave Nevada between times; but, however, he did not take his airplane. But that’s the way Mister Hughes used to operate. He would treat the people very, very well, but they never really did know exactly when they were going to be required to go to work. He sounds like a really interesting character. Did you ever get a chance to talk to him? I only had the chance to say good morning to him a few times, and we’d discuss the general weather conditions of the day, but as far as a deep conversation or anything, I never had that pleasure or that opportunity. However, it was nothing to see him hanging around George Crocket’s building on the west side of the airport at that time. In fact, at that time, George Crocket, who was running the fix base operation at McCarran, had the only telephone that was in existence out here, other than those at the airport terminal. Okay. So you mentioned Hughes, and have you had a chance to talk to any of the other well-known people who come to Las Vegas continuously? UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 7 Oh, yes. Bing Crosby and Bob Hope were always very congenial. In fact, they would always stop by the cockpit to say a few words. Rosemary Clooney, who I had known back in Cincinnati in 1947, ’48, and ’49, would never go get on board without stopping in the cockpit to see if she knew any of the pilots. How about Red Fox himself? Red Fox I’ve had on board recently, but not so much in the early days. It was interesting to note that I had Senator Pat McCarran aboard many, many times. Of course, McCarran Airport is named after Senator Pat McCarran at the time he was a rather senior senator in Washington. But he spent a lot of time flying between Reno and Las Vegas. Can you name any really specific incidents – I’m not talking about people; I’m talking about the way the airport was run at that time 20 years ago. I mean, was it – were there as many pilots? No, our pilot seniority list had about 14 or 15 pilots on it when I came to work here. TWA was flying through about twice a day, as United was also, and Western Airlines, of course. And the traffic then was absolutely nothing compared to what it is today. The flight would maybe land every half hour or so. And today, we’re having three landings per minute. So there’s quite an increase. As far as airlines safety is concerned, there were no problems then? No, we had a rather— So there was very little traffic, so there were a lot fewer problems? Very little traffic compared to what it is today, that is, of course. Was the atmosphere more relaxed? UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 8 Much more relaxed. Everybody knew everybody, and if you got there early enough in the morning, you could park your car right in front of the terminal and go fly your trips and come home, and pick it up and go back to your home. Nowadays, to go to work, you have to park about 15 minutes from the airport. How many pilots do you think are flying for – out of Las Vegas right now? I know they’ve had a lot of trouble recently, and probably a lot of people are flying elsewhere now. I know a lot of pilots left Las Vegas, and they’re flying out of Seattle. Yes, we don’t have but 67 pilots now currently flying for Republic out of Las Vegas, Nevada. At one time, we had 275 based here just a few years ago. Three years ago, approximately? Approximately three years ago. But since that time, they’ve moved some of the heavier equipment to Phoenix. So we’re down to a smaller operation here as far as our local pilots are concerned; however, the inbound and outbound traffic is still on the increase. Okay. I remember, if you want to know something about something on earlier days. I remember, once in 1952, they were taking some, I don’t know, movies or whatever they would call it, for the 20 (unintelligible) series over in Death Valley. And at that time, we had a flight once a day between Las Vegas and Death Valley. And I remember, once we came in for a landing over there, and we disrupted the whole thing, unknown to us, because the mules were very upset with that DC-3. That’s the kind of incidents I’m looking for. Can you think of anything else? I remember a couple of pilots talking about a pigeon that came in to greet the planes coming in for landing. Yes. UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 9 How did that go? Up in Hawthorne, Nevada, every morning when we would fly into there – this was back in the mid ‘50s – there was a pigeon that would come out and meet the airplane. Now, not too many people would believe this, but I have a few pilots, older pilots, who will verify this. That the pigeon would meet the flight and fly right up to the wing tip and land on it as we were taxiing in. And he would stay there until we loaded their passengers. He got out at the end of the runway, and he would stay there even then until the air speed was such that he’d just open up his wings and fly away. Really? And sure enough, the morning, there he’d be to meet you again. How long did that go on? This went on for quite a few months until one day, he got himself mixed up with a propeller that didn’t kill him, but it hurt him pretty, pretty bad. The station manager there at Hawthorne kept him in a box. And we all went in every morning to see how he was getting along. Well, sure enough, he recovered. But he never did recover enough to go out and greet us on that wingtip anymore after that. While we’re on Hawthorne, I can relate another little instance. They used to have a train that operated, well, it was up in northern Nevada, Reno down through, and it terminated it at Hawthorne. And the reason he terminated at Hawthorne, that was a terminus there for storage of ammu—it’s an ammunition storage dump facility. It still is to this day. But back in those days, I remember one morning, we landed there, and as we parked and waiting for a passenger reload, some Navy personnel came out and said, “When you take off on your way to Reno, would you take a look around and see if you can find that train. It’s way overdue, and if you see it, just give a call back and tell us about where it was.” And sure enough, after taking off, UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 10 we found it way up at the north end of Walker Lake. And we called it the kind of (unintelligible) trolley. It was putzing away very, very slow, so we just simply called and says, “It’s on its way, looks like it’s up the north end – it’s up the northern End of Walker. I should be there in another few hours. But when you think of the communications that we have nowadays, the only communication they had with that train was somebody flying overhead and reporting where it was. About what time was this? This was in the mid ‘50s also. Mid ‘50s. It was just an ammunition train moving south, but it was not of the cross country variety. It was a narrow gauge train, which is no longer existent. They don’t even use it anymore. The communications between the plane and the ground were – they’re a lot more complicated now and a lot— I don’t know if this is any more complicated, but in those days, we just had two small radios. Of course that’s all— To the tower, you mean? All we needed to the tower. Hawthorne, at that time, as far as I know, still does not have a tower. But we talked to our company personnel on the ground. That was our communications. Our communications was handled mainly by our own people, between our planes and our own people on the ground. Very little communications with towers, as there were very few towers. In fact, the only towers we had was one in Las Vegas and one in Reno when we first started. Really, so there wasn’t that confusion? UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 11 That’s right. You were mainly just talking to your own people all the time. You knew them by first name. You knew their families and how their kids were getting along and all that. Nowadays, you don’t know hardly anyone. Now back in the – I remember in the early ‘50s when we trying to keep our DC-3s running, the, what’s now the FAA was the CAA in those days, and we used to work very closely with the CAA in all air safety matters. And I was, at one time, was the chairman of the Air Safety Committee for Bonanza Airlines in Las Vegas. And it was on many a night that the CAA and myself and a couple of personnel would be wondering what we could do to keep these 3s running – keep them running smoothly and efficiently. In those days, it was everybody was helping out. Today, it seems to be more like the FAA— Just constant quarrels and fights? Seems to be a considerable amount of animosities. In the early days, it was just get it done, let’s work together, let’s keep everything moving just do it safely. Well, we can still do it safely. And of course, we did it safely then. It must cause a lot of pressure between the pilots and— There seems to be a little bit more pressure nowadays. Not that what the FAA is doing is wrong, it’s just that they’re the great big white fathers back in Washington and sometimes don’t seem to understand exactly what’s going on in the local environment. So they’re not really that involved, and they shouldn’t be making— They’re involved alright, but they’re involved from a distance. Paper. (Laughs) And in the early days, they were involved by being right there with you and seeing the problem and work it out and get it down. Nowadays, it’s just a pile of paper. You only see the representatives occasionally and that’s when there’s trouble? UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 12 Usually, the only time you see ‘em anymore is when there’s a problem. But I can’t say that the FAA is bad; what they’re doing is good. It’s just that the industry has moved so fast. No one can imagine how fast the industry was moving. That’s what, well, you’re talking about Las Vegas, and they’ve grown considerably in the past 20 years. How can anything, industry or anything, keep up with that kind of growth? Well, that’s why I have no animosities towards the FAA. They’re doing a good job overall. It’s just that we don’t have that spirit of union or relationship that we used to have. And I suppose, with progress, that’s the way things are. We’ve moved from two and a half, as I said earlier, 3 DC-3s, to today, we’re flying over 60 airplanes, all pure jet, and 727s included. How many of each would you say, about – you don’t have to be that specific if you can’t remember – but how many 727s and? We’re currently flying 14 727s on our fleet, with 63 DC-9s. And we’re getting some new DC-9-80s here, within this year. We’ll have seven of them on board by December of this year. That’s a far cry from three DC-3s in just 20 years. Okay. Airwest became Republic how long ago, about a year ago? Airwest became Republic in October 1 of 1980. We started the airline, but Bonanza Airlines started back in 1946. But they weren’t doing much. It was mainly just a one flight a day type thing to Reno and back to Las Vegas. So they stayed pretty much in Nevada, Bonanza? Yeah, and they really didn’t get going until 1952. And it was all Hughes-backed back then? UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 13 No, Hughes had nothing to do with us back in those days. He was bought into the airline in the late ‘60s. Hughes was here in the ‘50s. I don’t know why he came here so often other than I think he just came here to kinda relax and get away from it all. He did a lot of flying, didn’t he? He did. He used to fly his own Convair, his 240 twin engine radio-type engines, and he use to fly it, and he had a mechanic who sat in and acted as the copilot. It was the mechanics that I knew quite well. That was the mechanic that stayed here long enough on that one flight to meet his girl and have a baby before he was ever told he was gonna leave. So I always thought he never really had the time for that sort of relaxation, you know? Hughes, when you hear about him, you hear about millions of dollars. And it seemed to me, it was it was a high pressure kind of life you wouldn’t think he would have. Well, it probably was to him when he was here. And when I did see him, we’d see him here frequently in the morning hours, especially. He was a nice, very polite gentleman. He would always say good morning to you. He never let a door slam. I remember walking in behind him one morning to Crocket’s, and he was very polite. He turned around and says, “Oops, I didn’t mean to let that hit you.” So he always had enough time to talk. Yes, he did. He had time to talk. He didn’t look like he was concentrating on something else at that same time? Not at that time. I remember one morning, though, George Crocket asked me, he says, “What about that Cadillac I rented to you?” And Mister Hughes says, “What Cadillac?” And George says, “Well, I rented your Cadillac about a month ago,” and Mister Hughes was just getting ready to leave TWA, I believe it was at the time, and he says to George, “You know, I’ve UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 14 forgotten where I left that thing.” He says, “Maybe if you get the police or somebody to find it, I’ll pay you for all the time I’ve had it.” And sure enough, George called the police and after a few days, they found it and brought it back to George. And Mister Hughes very gladly paid the bill. It wasn’t bad, he just parked it someplace and left, and I guess when he got ready to go, he probably got a cab and came out the airport, and forgot all about where he left his car. He was famous for doing things like that, and yet, he was a very brilliant man; but things like keeping track of his car was not his thing. He always had his mind on something else? His mind, I think, was really on something else, and keeping track of his car was not his forte. I always hear that he was pretty tight with his money. He was very careful. Well, I think he was careful on big matters, but when it came to paying his bills and paying his way, he was very good then. I heard he would rent limousines, and he would – no, he was offering to buy one, one time. And then he would just use it overnight or something, and then bring it back, and say, “I’m not really interested in it.” Well, I guess he probably just didn’t like it. But as far as paying his people concerned, he paid his copilot a very, very good salary. I remember, his copilot told me many, many times, he’s more than happy, more than pleased with his income, but Mister Hughes providing, just the fact that Mister Hughes may decide to go at two o’clock in the morning, and he wanted this man to be available 24 hours a day. But for that, he paid the man a lot of money. So, he did take care of his people. I like Mister Hughes, what little I knew about him. I was not that close to him, of course. UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 15 Yes. Let’s get back to Las Vegas, specifically. Can you tell me a little bit about the road system in Las Vegas? Well, the roads in those days consisted mainly of the Los Angeles Highway, or what was commonly known as the strip, which is the Los Angeles Highway, the Strip, or South 5th Street, and that was, South 5th Street or the Strip, was a two-lane road leading into town, and of course Fremont Street was there, and that’s a big street. Charleston was there, but it was only a two-lane road, most of which was dirt. What was the family life like in Las Vegas. I mean— Very – when we came to Nevada, you could honestly say there was little or no crime. There was no major crime that we knew about. So that means a lot of— In those days, it was perfectly safe to walk the – walk anywhere in town you wanted to, at any hour of the day or night. You felt perfectly safe in doing so. And now the jail is hopeful. They’re trying to get rid of the criminals they can’t keep. Yes, it’s – I’m not too sure what brought it on, whether it was dope or whatever, but nowadays, you don’t dare do the things that we used to do in the early ‘50s when I was first here. So, it’s a very conservative attitude, and I think it still is as far as politicians are concerned. It’s basically a conservative state. Reno, the northern part of Nevada, a little bit more conservative than the southern portion. However, I believe state-wise, the state is relatively a conservative state. But back in those days, it was, the people that were here were, I don’t know, they were a different breed of (unintelligible). They were easier to get along with; of course, there fewer of them. As I said earlier, there was no crime whatsoever. As far as the streets are concerned, where Von Tobel’s is now on Sahara and Maryland Parkway, where I used to dump UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 16 my grass clippings on my way to work, that was just part of the desert. Maryland Parkway did not exist at that time. Well, then, what do you think could be the major reason for the booming crime rate? I suppose, I don’t know, just the numbers of people and the influence of (unintelligible) I would have to believe is the biggest influence. Well, you’re talking about people who would use anything like that. I guess it might have something to do with the economy, the kind of people working in Las Vegas. Maybe it’s not the people living here. There’s so many visitors, it’s hard— I think you’re right. I think the people living here basically are a pretty good group of people. I think if some of our visitors would come into town looking for a fast buck and don’t make the fast buck, and finally they, for whatever reasons, they find it easier to knock over an 85-year-old woman to take her purse away from her. I’ve heard of a lot of people selling their plane tickets out of Las Vegas just to make that extra money. Just to try that last chance and see if they can make a quick dollar. Do you have any problems on the planes about that, I mean, people can’t make it home. Yes, we sometimes notice, passengers inbound are quite easy, nice to get along with. On occasion, on the outbound portion of it, the same passenger’s not quite so nice – possibly have lost all their money, and possibly been up all night, possibly have had a little too much to drink. But for whatever reasons, the biggest problems we will have with passengers are usually those passengers coming – going out of the city. When did gambling really become the biggest part of the economy? UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 17 Well, I guess it’s always been the biggest part of the economy. But in the ‘50s, it was not so much— So Las Vegas is really based on gambling, unlike other cities in Nevada. That’s true, that’s true. And you could get into a show in the ‘50s, and for $5 a person, you could have a couple drinks, see a good show, and plus the tip and go home. Nowadays, as you know, what it costs you now just to get in. A week’s pay? Close to it? Yes. And plus the crowd that you’ll have to, all night, you’ll have to stand just to get in. So there’s been a tremendous amount of change in Las Vegas, and of course in the whole State of Nevada. And I guess in, overall, it’s for the good. But of course, I like to remember the so-called good ole days, when things were just a little bit slower, a little bit easier. When your mother was trying to get a pattern, for instance, she would have to go to Sears and order it, and have it sent in from Los Angeles. Oh, you mean there wasn’t much as far as material goods are concerned? Shopping was absolutely terrible. It was next to nothing. Grocery stores were okay, but if you wanted something, like, you go down to Sears now, you get anything you want. In those days, you couldn’t get everything you want. Most things that you wanted, they had to order it for you. And it would take anywhere from two to three weeks just to get a simple little thing, mail-ordered to you. Okay, we’ve talked about the planes and the road conditions. What about trains? Trains – we had trains during those days. And it was, if you had nothing better to do, you could take a twelve-hour train ride between Las Vegas and Los Angeles, which I did on a couple of occasions. UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 18 Did you think it was worth it? No, it certainly wasn’t. As bad as the roads were, I decided, from the future, I would just drive over if I had to get over there. Although, we, there were airlines going there. We did not go. Bonanza Airlines only went from Las Vegas to Reno to Phoenix, and Phoenix to Los Angeles. So, a couple times I did take the train. It was a 12-hour ride. If you went nonstop on the train, it was about an eight-and-a-half hour trip, but if you went on that evening train, it seemed to stop everywhere; it took 12 hours. When Bonanza became Airwest, they widened their area as far as— Yes. When we merged with Pacific Airlines and West Coast Airlines in the late ‘60s, we then had – we probably had most of all the flights in the west, then, as far as the cities are concerned. We operate, now, from Calgary, Canada, down to Guadalajara, Mexico. With Republic – how far did Republic go? Now Republic goes nationwide, now, doesn’t it? Now, we go nationwide. We have 1,237 pilots on our system seniority list, as opposed to about 15 when I first came here. Okay, so Bonanza started from a really rinky-dink operation to combining with major powers here. Right, yes. It’s quite an airline now. We go from coast to coast. We don’t go nonstop from coast to coast, but we cover the coasts of the coast to coast, and from Miami, Florida to Seattle, Washington. Didn’t they have to cut back on a lot of their personnel when they combined, or was that? We did. We have a few people currently on furlough, but I’m sure, within a year, we’ll have ‘em all brought back in; we’ll be moving along pretty nice. I expect, within two years, there’s gonna be a very smooth-running airline. UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 19 Well, what was the main reason for combining with Republic? It was economics. When you’re very small in this day and age, you just can’t get it all done. You need the cash flow and the big carriers, or the bigness, I should say, of the carrier. So, if you have a few bad months or a bad year, you don’t go under. And this way, we have better roots and much more growth prospects. Well, I remember a few years ago when all the strikes were going on with Airwest, and a lot of their pilots were on furlough, and a lot of stewardesses were let go, and all of this – a lot of this was short-term notice. I mean, people just got things in the mail that says, be prepared to move to Phoenix or to Seattle, “Sell your house, we’ll sell it for you.” And I mean, that was really short-term notice. Yes, there were a lot of major changes here within the last three, four years. There’s been a lot of moving in and out of Las Vegas – mainly out, now. It seems like we’re going to move most of our operations as far as the pilots are concerned, anyway to Phoenix. And we all get a minimum of three months’ notice if we have to move. Yes, but you’re talking about homes that are worth a lot of money, and right now, cannot sell on this market. Well, most of us who – well, I’m still based here – but for those who had to leave, most of them are the old timers, really still live in Las Vegas. And they commute. You know, with the large families and everything, and all their friends are here. It’s simpler for them to just simply commute than it is to take their family and take their roots, and move out. So then you’ve seen a lot of changes in the airlines, and their businesses in Nevada? UNLV University Libraries John Boyle 20 Yes, and this last 29 years, 1952 to 1981, we’ve this, as I said earlier to you, Bonanza Airlines was a two-and-half, or if you’d like to call, three DC-3s – these 29 years, it’s gone from that up to currently flying 727s and 60 some-odd DC-9s. It’s merged with Pacific Airlines, West Coast Airlines, and now with Republic Airlines, which had already merged with Southern Airways. So you’re talking about five airlines that are now one airline under the new name of Republic Airlines. We’re operating from coast to coast, and from border to border. In some cases, we go into Calgary, Canada, Edmonton, Canada, and as far south as Guadalajara, Mexico. So it’s been, in these 29 years, we’ve seen an awful change, awful lot of change. And I have to say, for the most part, it’s certainly been for good. Some of the economics of the country have fluctuated. I don’t know if that’s all been so good. It directly influences all the airlines. The economy has been good, basically, over the years. There’s been peaks and valleys, ups and downs, but by and large, the economy has improved, and of course, with that, the airline business has improved, transportation has improved. And of course, we’ve increased our safety value tremendous. Okay, thank you very much for this interview.