Transcript of interview with Carl F. Kelley by James M. Greene, May 2, 1972

UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley i An Interview with Carl F. Kelley An Oral History Conducted by James M. Greene Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley ii © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2019 UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley iii The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley iv Abstract On May 2, 1972, James M. Greene interviewed Carl F. Kelley (born May 19th, 1922 in Ohio) about his life in Southern Nevada. The two talk about how Kelley first moved to Nevada and his original addresses. Kelley describes living in Boulder City, Las Vegas, and Henderson. The interview concludes with an in-depth discussion of the Civilian Conservation Corps activities in Boulder City, Nevada. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 1 (Audio begins mid-conversation)—In Las Vegas, 1975, regarding Mr. Kelley’s experience with the Civilian Conservation Corps, commonly called the “C’s” in Boulder City, Nevada. Mr. Kelley’s tape will be placed in the UNLV library, the Nevada Special Collections section for his use, his family’s use, and all serious researchers in Nevada History. Mr. Kelley, will you please tell us where you entered the C’s and at what dates you arrived in Boulder City to join your unit? Yes, I entered the C’s in the first part of March of 1939 from Ohio—Portsmouth, Ohio. I went from there to a camp, kind of a receiving camp in some place in Indiana. I don’t recall the name of the town. And then from there, we were all separated and sent to different camps throughout the nation. I came into Boulder City, by train—through the train, an actually into Las Vegas and then into the Boulder City Camp the same day we came in with groups that were going to this Las Vegas camp, they do not look I don’t remember the number of that one. And then we were thrown into Boulder City to join the twin camps there. There were two different companies— Excuse me— Well, I joined Company Number 573. 573? And some other boys went to a twin camp in Boulder, Camp Number 2536. In relation to today’s buildings, Mr. Kelley, could you tell us where the buildings actually sat? Why, yes. In Boulder City? Actually, the Boulder Highway and Cherry Street was where the El Rancho Boulder Motel is now. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 2 I see. The two companies, the back of barracks faced Cherry Street and they faced out into an open courtyard. There was another building that included the mess hall and the book shack, and sleeping quarters for the National Park Service People. Now these buildings have prior usage by construction people on Boulder Dam, do you think? I think so, I think they were originally barracks for them. They were two story then? Yes, they were two stories. About how many men would they hold do you think? Well, in each company, there was, oh, between 100-120. So each company had a single barrack. I see. You had a company compliment of men that you tried to use at full strength? I suppose? As each six month enlistment expired, you could re-enlist or you could elect to go back home. I see. And I as one group would move out very shortly, another group would replace them. How many times could you re-enlist Mr. Kelley? Only up to two years. Two years? Yes, so four enlistments, yes. Alright, four enlistments. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 3 And I stayed the full four enlistments. And then stayed in Boulder City because I had a job. You didn’t have to go home if you had employment. If you did not have employment, then you had to go back home. I see. Now, originally, as the civilian conservation corps legislation came out of congress, effective July 1, 1937, the (unintelligible) states that it was to endure for three years, and three years only. However, you tell me that you were not discharged from the C’s from 1941. Are you aware of any extension that Congress might’ve given? No, I didn’t know of any, but there must’ve been. The dates you mustered out, was what date? It was 1941 and it was around March. Well, then it’s obvious that this original act of the congress did extend. I’m sure it did. Beyond the three year period. I’m sure they did. Also according to that act, which I’ve had an opportunity to read now for the first time (Laughs) we were supposed to have educational activities within the camp. And we did. We had an educational director. He was called entertainment director. Was he a civilian? Yes, he was a civilian. I see. And his job was to kind of lead the boys into the library and try to help them with the old math and English and things of that nature. You had your own library? UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 4 Yes we did. And it was a good one, well stocked. And he was the most cooperative person you’d ever want to meet. What was his name? That I can’t remember. Okay (Laughs) And we had him, we only had him a year. There was another man that took his place. But he was a very, very helpful person. We—I think—between the military, the educational, and the work projects we had, and through the park service, I think it was a very good thing for boys at that time. Well then, you had two different types of supervision? That’s correct. You had the Army—? Army Reserves. Army and Reserve Officers, and also your work schedule from the National Park Service? That’s right. And whatever work improvements or skills you developed were under the jurisdiction of your CCC activities that related to improvements to the municipality and to the installations that they were charged with either constructing, or improving. That’s right. When I first went they were just building the Boulder City Camp Grounds down on the Lake. And would that be known as Boulder Beach? Near Boulder Beach, yes, it is near Boulder Beach, and also for the construction and the maintenance of the Boulder Beach and the Boulder Boat Dock. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 5 Which is now the Marina? That’s right. Uh-huh. We went to work—or I went to work when I first got in there, like everybody else, we were sent out on taking shovel gains and wheel barrels and things of that nature because they were putting in all of the sewer lines and the water lines and planting trees. In fact, they’re still there, and those trees are still growing there that we’ve planted many years ago. (Laughs) Were there trailers in there at that time? No, there wasn’t at that time. There weren’t? In fact, it was just camp grounds, and there wasn’t that many there— Like visitors to any National Park? That’s right. And they open fires and put sanitation—? They built fire places and set up relief stations— I see that’s interesting. And planted the trees. Right after I started on the picking shovel, I had a boss by the name of (Unintelligible). Mister (Unintelligible)? And he gave me little projects to do. Digging a ditch here or there and he kept watching me, and I wasn’t much bigger than that pick or that shovel that I was swinging. But I was getting the job done. He came over to me one day and he says, you ought to take it easy for a bit. He says, “You’re working too hard.” And that’s fine. And so he says, “I think I have another little job for UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 6 you,” he says, “I’d like for you to start keeping time for the people.” So I told him, “Yes, I’d like that.” So I got the time books and I’d go around and check the names and put the number of hours that they were working and what particular type of project they were working on. Whether it was the sewer, or the water, or the planting of the trees, or whatever. Mm-hmm. And everything related just to the people he was working with. So this went on for a while. And one day, why, Mr. Rufus Buck Jr., was the camp engineer, for the park service. He came down looking for someone he wanted to set up a survey group—when you need. So— (Unintelligible)? Sure was. That man took me off of that and gave me something that I could— Learned a new skill? Learn. Really? So I started the crew, as it started out was Mr. Buck and myself. There wasn’t anybody else yet. And he said, as we get into this thing a little bit more, why then, we get some more people on the crew. So I worked with him a whole week and a half. He taught me how to set up the little level, and taught me how to set up the transit, and he taught me how to use it, and how to chain. Then we got—at first I got two other men. And he said, when they came on, that would have to work under me— Part time? And he would be the overall man, but— What did this do for your pay? Nothing, nothing really. I didn’t get my corporal stripes until, oh, three or four days later. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 7 You came in at thirty dollars a month and what would a corporal and—? Oh, you got thirty-six. Thirty-six? Yes. And private would be how much? Private was thirty, corporal was thirty-six. A sergeant was forty-five dollars a month. And we didn’t get all that, because the only time you got the money difference between what you went in as a private and as a corporal, or a sergeant for that matter, you still sent twenty dollars a month home. That’s a lot to send home. Now if you made ratings, you only sent twenty-two dollars a month home, and you got the difference. So instead of eight dollars a month, why, if you make corporate, and if you made sergeant, why then, you got the difference between twenty-two and forty-five which is twenty-three dollars a month. That was— Something— That was something to aspire to (Laughs) It was worth working for. I should say. On your newfound skill in surveying, Mr. Kelley, how did you—what opportunities presented them to you to use this—in the crew of yours—well, what did you do? Well, at that time, when I first started, I went to work down on the beach in the camp grounds area laying out the water lines and the sewer lines survey-wise, and checking the elevations and UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 8 setting elevations for the sewer lines. And then later, laying out some stuff down at the Boulder Beach and then oh, within two or three months after I started, why, I was working on the—that Boulder City Airport. The Airport? Yes, we extended—started out extending, I think it was runway number two. And then later, we extended and made longer, runway number one. And then still later than that, we completely built runway number three. Is that where the present airport is today? Yes. Where was the old, that in relation to the old Boulder City Airport, Mr. Kelley? They are the same. They are identical. Yes they are. I see. TWA was landing there, then. They had the franchise to land? Yes. The only one? Yes, they were the only one that had a Franchise there, but they did not have a franchise in Las Vegas. Yes. There were a couple other airlines, United for one, that had the franchise in Las Vegas. So that and the TWA were passengers for Las Vegas were bussed in or limousine in? UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 9 That’s right. If they had to transfer over from Boulder City, going someplace else— What would be a normal route out of Boulder City or TWA at the time? Los Angeles perhaps or? Los Angeles, Salt Lake— San Francisco, maybe? San Francisco, yes. Did you have food service there? Well— Or did they have food service? Well, they had a catering service that came from Uptown. From Uptown? Up in Boulder City. In Boulder City. Do you know who—? No I don’t, because most of the time, the food services were catered right on the planes themselves. I didn’t learn that until much later. This was probably not at the time anyway where you were working laying out the runways? That’s right. The TWA came in later? Oh no, TWA was landing at the time—we were just lengthening the runways. Oh I see. I think because the planes were getting larger, they needed more room. I see. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 10 And. I’m sure you’ll discuss TWA activities later on in our interview (Laughs) Later, I had two-three crews. Survey crews? Yes, as we’d get new replacements in, why, as my work was enlarging, I had a level crew, and I would have a transit crew, and I would teach them to operate the instruments as I was taught, and how to chain, as I was taught, and how to keep notes. And it wasn’t, oh I don’t remember, I think probably a year after I started on that, why, Mr. Buck took a job as State Highway Engineer. Is that right? Yes. And we were without an engineer at that time, so I was doing most of the survey. Now you had some other experiences and training besides your survey training, did you not? Oh yes, I learned how to drive an automobile. (Laughs) (Laughs) That sounds funny today, but it wasn’t then, because not too many people had automobiles. But my boss, about, oh I guess, two weeks after I started working with him, when we got the other two boys on the crew, he set me up with her in the office at the park service building where Boulder City Hospital is now. I see. And he told me to take the crew and go on out to the airport and go to work. And I told him I couldn’t drive. And he said, “Well, you’ll never learn any younger.” So, he showed me—drew me a little diagram of where the gears were, ‘cause it was a gear shift truck. And he says, now, “this is the clutch and this is the break, and this is so and so, and here’s the way the gears go.” UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 11 And he drew me a little diagram, and he says, “Now take the crew and go on out there.” Well, I told him I’d try, I got out and I tried. And fortunately for me, one of the boys that I had picked up for the crew could drive. (Laughs) I see. Now, I wasn’t going to let him drive, but he was going to help me get through this. So I rigged a few gears, but I finally got down to the airport. And I got back up that evening, and then after that, it became quite easy. And about two to three weeks after that, in order to drive the truck, I had to take a driver’s test that was put on by our company, the National Park Service Personnel. Yes. They took me out and I passed my test. Did that give you a driver’s license? Oh yes, gave me a driver’s license. State of Nevada license? No, no. Everything in the Park Service Domain. I see. But when I did take that in to the Highway Department, why, they issued me a license. I see. If you can drive for the park service, you drive for anybody. That’s what they said because you have to go through all the safety procedures. Of course. Even to the stopping of railroad tracks and everything. Along with that, you had some training in La Cañada did you not? UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 12 Oh yes. As a survey worker, became a little less as we just about completed all of the work on the airport. Why the survey work cut down quite a bit. In order to go out in the field and go out on tasks, from the city, you had to get to (Unintelligible) (Unintelligible) You had to take so many hours of first aid training and pass it. And if you didn’t, you had to stay over and you couldn’t get out too much until you could complete it. (Laughs) And so when I took my test, I passed it quite well. And so when this thing started coming down to a little bit of a close, they wanted to know if I’d like to go into a camp in La Cañada, California, that was operated by the American Red Cross, and go to a first aid’s instructor’s school. I see. And I told ‘em sure, I would like to. So I went over there, I think it was two or three weeks total, and went to La Cañada, California. I spent my time there and I passed my instructor’s course, and I came back to camp. And when I came back, why, one of the people that was operating our hospital and whether I said yes or no, I’m sure that’s where I would’ve ended up. So I said yes. How long of a course was that? Oh, there was no course to it. We had a visiting doctor. I see. That he would come over in the morning and go through a sick call. And his job seemed to be, that he wanted to instruct us in everything. What was his name? I don’t recall. It’s been too long. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 13 Ah yes. And he taught us everything that we were using because he used to be in medicine. He would prescribe and we saw that they were given to the right parties. These skills you can always use all your life. I use them all the time, believe me. And of course, I was there long enough that he would let me mix the meds. Mm-hmm. And I had the keys to the narcotics lock. And when he would prescribe certain pain killers and things of that nature to the patients and we had about four or five beds in there, with another little room that separated that room. That room was a quarantine room. I see. Because we had a bunch of young boys and every once in a while, one would come down with the measles or the mumps or whatever and we had to quarantine them away from the other people. So then, given shots, he taught us how to do that. But these additional qualifications, would that increase your rank, or the possibility—? No—I got my corporal’s rating through the survey. I see. And that was as far as you could go in that field. And the corporal was all that they allowed in the medical industry. So in order to get a sergeant or something like that, I had to get into another field. Do you remember your commanding officer’s names? No. I see. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 14 Not really. The Army people— The Army people? The Army people, I don’t. Earl W. Bannister was the superintendent of Camp 573 for the National Park Service. I see. And Clifton Bailey was the superintendent for Camp 2036, the other camp. Now they were both park service personnel. But we changed our military commanders and lieutenants quite well, about every six months. Oh, I see. They would just go on to some other duty, maybe to some other camp. Yes. And then a new man would come in and take his place. I think they were trying to train officers to—because we had a bunch of young ones— Yes. Go ahead. They changed rather frequently. That has its advantages too—I mean, not only the personnel but the program. There are new faces and new ideas and that leads me to wonder—besides your experiences, what were some of the jobs that the other young me were doing in your unit? You were doing surveying and first aid work, and working with the park service down in Boulder Beach. Now what were some of the other projects, the projects the other men do? Now as I said, we built that runway through a—and extended the other runway— Yes—? Well we did this with our own personnel. Our own bones operating the heavy equipment. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 15 Hmm. They were truck drivers, there were bulldozer operators, drag line people, and they would get out there and dig holes with that bulldozer like you wouldn’t believe when they didn’t really mean to. But they did learn to operate. They got their chance. The drag line operators, we had about three or four that was good as any as I have seen before or since. And at such a young age. And they were young. And I’m sure they could’ve used those skills. They’re so difficult to come by these days. You can bet that every one of them used—has used them in his lifetime. Oh most certainly. In the service, they probably ended up either (unintelligible) or tank drivers in the Army. We had other boys that laid blocks and made concrete forms for concrete to build—they were building a water line. They were building a pumping station. In Boulder City? No, down above the beach! And it’s still there. It’s still there, it’s still there. Then we had the stone mason. That interests me. There were a bunch of the boys— That’s an ancient craft and I wonder who taught these boys, did you import people? No? I remember a name. John Ward— John Ward, huh? John Ward was a CC boy. Well, CC young man, he was older than the others, quite a bit older. And it seems that he had had some block (unintelligible) experiences before. Either probably UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 16 working with some of his relatives or somebody else. And he was in charge of the (unintelligible) block layers that built the Hualapai Lodge, which is now Lake Mead Lodge. Lake Mead Lodge, uh-huh. And they put on the concrete forms on there, they put all the plumbing in, they built the building. Did the roof and everything else? They done everything. They completed those buildings? They completed ‘em. Now there was another person involved there that I can remember—his capacity, I don’t, but I know he was some type of supervisor. His name was Joe Plank. I think he’s still around the Vegas area. I actually— Joe Plank. And Mister (Unintelligible) had had some experiences with stone masonry, I’m sure. Mister (Unintelligible)? Mister (Unintelligible) and he was the man I first started working with. That’s beautiful stuff, oh, particularly that you describe behind the old hospital. That’s right. Where it joins the road down to— The boys built that. Through the main high way. They put all that stonework in, they put the stonework around what’s not the hospital, but at that time, was the Park Service Headquarters. And then we had what we called “Spike Camps.” Spike? Each company had a camp. Now our Spike Camp was the Overton area. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 17 These are a sort of satellite camps? Yes, maybe twenty or thirty men would go there. I see. Now they were doing soil conservation work up there. They were working in the Valley of Fire. Building trails on the Valley of Fire for roads for tourists. Yes. And then the other Spike Camp, from Camp 2536, had this (unintelligible) in Arizona. Now they had a job that was outstanding. They lived in tents up there with wooden floors and wooden sides, and stoves. Little wood stoves. And they would work where the water came out of the canyon and they’d go out and grab a log—the big logs and trees just coming down the Colorado River, and empty into Lake Mead, and at that time, there were mud flats out in there. Indeed. I mean, just two or three, and now I guess it’s all mud, all the way down. I think so. But at that time, there were just certain mud flats and they would pile the stuff up on there. They’d go out in these big boats, these heavy powered boats, grapple onto those big trees and work ‘em into that island. Roll ‘em up on the beach and pile ‘em up and then when they got a pile so big, they’d pour gasoline on ‘em and burn them after they’ve had time to dry. And then when the island would get cold, they’d pull them into shore and do the same thing. I see. Because I was up there, I was up there on a survey job. And what were you surveying there? There was a telephone line that we were putting in. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 18 I see. Where did it run to? From and to? It came over from Kingman—we picked up on the highway going towards Kingman. Yes, I understand. And when I got up there, part of it had really been built, but it wasn’t finished. Now was this Spike Camp something that Mr. (Unintelligible) at that you mentioned? No it wasn’t (Unintelligible) it was Willis Evans. Evans? Now he was the supervisor of that Camp, he was Indian. He was Indian? Yes. He was quite an Indian and I mean in every way. There wasn’t a person up there in that camp that didn’t think he was the word. What tribe was he from? I think he was Paiute. Paiute? I think, but I’m not—yes in fact, I’m sure he was Paiute, because I’m working at the present time with his grandson. (Laughs) That’s interesting! All your life? In fact when I heard his name—when he first came to the café, I heard his name— Mr. Evans? And I went to look at him. What was his first name? UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 19 Willis. Willis Evans? Willis Evans, and in fact, his grandson is Willis Evans and that’s why I asked him if his father— (Laughs) And of course at the time, I didn’t know it was the time, I wasn’t thinking about that. I says, “Willis Evans,” I said, “Did your father ever work for the Park Service (Unintelligible)?” And he kind of grinned at me and says, no, not my father but my grandfather did. (Laughs) And I said “oh! It’s been that long ago?” It has! Anyhow, Willis Evans was the Indian who found the body of (Unintelligible) Yes, the renegade Indian. Yes, and he found him in the cave of the grand canyon, completely mummified. Is that right? I was talking with— Was he purposefully looking for (Unintelligible)? I don’t think so, no, he was doing a little scouting up the canyon, see, ‘cause Pierce’s Ferry is right at the neck of the canyon. It is, yes. So he was scouting up in there. He used to go up in there fishing and he’d go up in there hunting. That’s why the boys all liked him as well as they can, because he would go Saturdays and Sundays, there just wasn’t anything to do. So he’d take ‘em on scouting trips and try to teach ‘em Indian lore. You know, just things that he learned as a kid. I guess about a week—a week and a UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 20 half after he had found the body when the park service had reported that there was an article that came out in the paper. It was a couple of days before that, that he was talking to my boss, Rufus Buck, and I was in the pickup when Willis was talking to him. And he says that when he found the body, and was looking at it, that there was a parchment like skin— Yes. Front to back, and he figured, or thought that (Unintelligible) had died partially from the wound, and mostly from just starvation. Yes. Because he wasn’t able to get out and get food. And this was in Grand Canyon? Yes, it was up in the canyon. I see. I don’t know just where, I’ve never been the canyon before, and my boss was very interested in it. He said that at the papers at that time, he was credited with killing about twenty white people in the Vegas Valley area. Mm. And at that time, I guess Vegas Valley area took Overton, Las Vegas, and everything else. Oh yes. And Boulder City—and well, there was no Boulder City—but on down into El Dorado Canyon. That’s an imposing, I don’t suppose he had notches on his bow, but he had plenty of people to his credit. All I know is that after I had heard this from them, then the article came out that they were doing a service report to find the body. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 21 I remember just one of my conversations with people in El Dorado Canyon. The lady in that area, was killed by (Unintelligible) and she surprised them stealing food from her cooler (Laughs) Well, he was on the run and there had been many articles written, I don’t know too much about it that’s a tragic thing to happen. When you become a renegade you’ve got to pay the price. Yes. That’s the truth. (Unintelligible) and this was really out of the Las Vegas Canyon. The one that is where “4-Mile” is now. 4-Miles? On Boulder Highway? And their Spike Camp was Mount Charleston. Now they were responsible for building trails up there and planting trees and fighting forest fires. And if a fire got out of hand there, then they would call on the camps in Boulder City to go in and help fight the fires. But the way they worked, they controlled them because they controlled things pretty well. Now if you had to make a trip Mr. Kelley, from Boulder city to Mount Charleston, would you use Army trucks or national parks service trucks? They were national parks service trucks, but they were in effect, Army. And I think the Army, the requisition their equipment from the Army. I see. Because they were the same trucks that I went through World War II with. Identical. That was a real rugged duty—forest fire. Well, we never had to go over onto one. Or at least, I didn’t, and that might’ve been because I was in a specialized type of unite. Like, the medical thing. Yes. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 22 One time, they took quite a few of our men out to go up there and it took them about three or four days to corral the fire. There’s probably not too many fires, but here you had spent probably three years there and it’s not unusual maybe a lightning fire or a turret fire out there now that they’ve stabilized and are opening up roads and trails, you could have camp fires again. You know, not well taken care of, it is understandable how you could have— Oh yes— If you go up there— There were fires more often than that, except that they wouldn’t let them get out of hand. As soon as a fire would just get its start, why, they were on the job. So that Spike, was it up on Mount Charleston? Or— No, it was about where the old Charleston Lodge was. I see. It was in that area. How far was the old one from the present restaurant up there? Well, just as you’re going up the road, before you hit the turn that turns you to get up into where the existing one is— The hairpin there, yes. It was just on your left before you reached that curve. I see. In other words, you could look right back down from the new one, over towards the road that comes up the mountain, and that’s where the old lodge is. UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 23 If you go straight-ahead you go to Mary Janes Falls. Mr. Kelley, were you ever at the Overton Spike Canyon? Well not to visit. I went up there on a survey job for work, really. (Laughs) And we got in there, I was doing survey work over in the valley of fire for (Unintelligible) and the Railway. The Roadway I think? And then working down, we had a special job to do. Really? Yes. We had an excavation job to do on what was known as the “Lost City.” The Lost City? Yes, it was an Indian Camp Ground, over a many, many years. And the whole camp was involved in going down and with little troughs, starting to dig. Hand troughs? Hand troughs. And we would—we had a deadline to meet. And the deadline was May 14. And I really don’t recall the year. But I think, probably, that it was May of 1941. May? But it was May 14th, I remember that because we kept wanting—we kept asking why May 14th, and they said, by May 14th, the water would be over the Indian Camp Grounds. Is that a fact? That’s a fact and they wanted to excavate down and get as much of the artifacts as we could find, to send to the Smithsonian Institute. Sent them down to the Smithsonian? UNLV University Libraries Carl F. Kelley 24 That’s right. So we started that. And we started right at the service with little troughs— When did you go up there? Since your deadline was the 14th of May. Oh, I’ve been there for, probably a month before that. You were working on this excavation and (Unintelligible) for a month? No, I had gone up there about a month before that. I see. And it seemed to me that it was sudden. Maybe something like a week and a half that we had to do an excavation. I see. So we started, like everybody, we started scratching the ground, and as you dig down maybe two or three feet what you start coming across— Another layer, huh? Layers of broken pottery and things like that. Yes. We scraped out the areas where there was a camp. You could see it, there was a fireplace in the middle, the hard packed burned mud around the fire place and the area around where it had been built up around the tent—it was circular. And now sometimes as we got down to