Transcript of interview with Harvey N. Dondero by Iskander A. Batlouni, February 26, 1981

UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero i An Interview with Harvey N. Dondero An Oral History Conducted by Iskander A. Batlouni Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero ii © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2017 UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero iii The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero iv Abstract On February 26, 1981, collector Iskandar A Batlouni interviewed Harvey N. Dondero (born November 12, 1909 in Hawthorne, Nevada) in his office in Las Vegas, Nevada. As a member of the Las Vegas Board of Education, Mr. Dondero discusses relocating to Las Vegas in 1931 to teach at Las Vegas High School. During this interview, Mr. Dondero also discusses the Boulder (Hoover) Dam, the gaming industry, school integration, the Westside, the Strip, Howard Hughes, Block 16, and the growth of Las Vegas from a sleepy railroad town to a thriving metropolis. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 1 [Questionnaire handed to the narrator as a guide through the interview] Okay. My name is Harvey Dondero. I live at 808 Bonita Avenue in Las Vegas. I was born at Hawthorne, Nevada, on November 12th, 1909. My family on both sides, both my mother and father, have been residents of the United States since the 1860s. My maternal grandfather came to the United States from Italy as a boy and settled in Virginia City about 1860. Which was the first or second year that the big strike on the Comstock was founded in Virginia City. My paternal parents, fraternal parents, came to the United States about 1864, also from Italy. At that time my grandfather and my grandmother and two very small children, who were my first aunts, were with the family at that time. My father was one of the last, next to the last of this family, that was born in the United States. My maternal grandfather died in 1908, before I was born. So I never knew him. But I spent a great deal of my childhood in, on my grandmother’s ranch. Which was right over the border from Nevada into California, right at the foot of the Sierra Nevada Mountains. I spent the first five years of my life living with my aunts and uncles and my grandmother and went to school there. Then, after that I moved back to Hawthorne where my mother and father and sisters were living, and lived in Hawthorne until I was seventeen and then I went to the University of Nevada at Reno. And in 1931, I came to Las Vegas. I came here as a teacher in the Las Vegas High School. That was the beginning of my work in education. ‘Course at that time, Las Vegas was beginning to be a very exciting town. Because the Boulder Dam bill, now the Hoover Dam, had just been passed, and construction of the dam was just beginning, and there was a great deal of activity going on in this area at that time because the big contractors and the government were moving in. Boulder City was being built; excavation down in the canyon was starting, so that they could get the dam started down there at that time. In—and I remember well, how we used to go out on weekends and watch them build the dam and watch the big UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 2 crashes of concrete come down, as they filled the dam and it rose to the top. So I remember that quite well. ‘Course in 1935, they finished the dam and President Franklin D. Roosevelt came to Las Vegas at that time, for the dedication of the dam. This was the first time that I had ever seen a real live president. (Laughs) So of course that was quite exciting, you know. ‘Course I was still teaching at Las Vegas High School at that time. Everybody thought after the dam was finished that Las Vegas would probably go back to the small railroad town that it had been. But that wasn’t the case. So many tourists came in wanting to see the dam, which was the biggest job that the federal government had ever undertaken in this country, and I believe that the dam was. So that the tourist business started growing, and that brought a lot of people in here, so Las Vegas continued to grow. So, it wasn’t more or less, the gaming industry that brought Las Vegas to its actual boom. It was more or less the dam, the beginning of the dam? Ah, I would say so. But of course with the activity that was going on and the number of tourists that were coming in, one of the legislators from Northern Nevada by the name of Phil Tobin decided that maybe we ought a go back to gambling, which was illegal up to that time—and he got the bill passed through the legislature. So that in 1931, which was about the same time as construction of the dam, we started with the gambling business. And of course that fit in very well with the tourist business. And then, from that we had the growth of hotels along the Strip Las Vegas continued to grow. It didn’t go back to a little sleepy town that it was prior to 1931. It, you know, I don’t know if I’m out to fly on this question, but I was always fascinated by the gaming industry from with, inside. Yes. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 3 And I remember when I first came to Las Vegas and that was four years ago, people were talking about the Hilton, the Las Vegas Hilton, right across from the Caesars Palace. The Flamingo Hilton. That was the Flamingo. And how Bugsy Malone got shot over there. And I was always fascinated about— Bugsy Siegel. Yes. Bugsy Siegel, yes. (Laughs) Excuse me. Bugsy Siegel. Bugsy. Bugsy. He didn’t like to be called Bugsy, though. Oh, he didn’t, huh? I don’t think you called him Bugsy to his face. Well, I— Ben. Wasn’t his first name, his first name was Ben, I think. Well, anyhow, that’s— I was, I don’t know, you might be very much helpful in this area, what was really—nobody really knows about the—I guess the, what happened in that era between the people. The people that tried to move in, in Las Vegas. Well, I can—everybody called them, organized crimes, what’s their effect on Las Vegas itself, on the community? How the community was ready for it, and the class that happened between the law? Because, this is—that’s probably what everybody thinks of Las Vegas. Even I come from overseas and the only thing that we know overseas about Las Vegas is those things. Um, ‘course being in education I was pretty far removed from this kind of business going on, you know. We might go into a place and play the slot machine or something that or blackjack. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 4 But from what I read, there was quite an infiltration of the mob, the mafia, whatever you want to call ‘em, into the area. Because they were attracted by the gambling industry. I think this is what you were saying. Yes. Yes. That these type of people came in. Now I imagine that Siegel himself was an expert gambler and I don’t know what else you might call him. But he did come in and buy the land out here, way out. Which at that time, seemed like a long ways out. But he built the Flamingo Hotel. And of course it was the first of the casinos. I guess it was the first one. Well, probably the oldest one. Or at least one of the first ones. Yes. The oldest one. Although there were some being built along Fremont Street, too. The Boulder Club and some of those others, as I can remember were also built to accommodate the gambling urge. But I think probably, as I say, from what I read over a period of time, there always has been this element that has infiltrated. And course they had to set up the gaming commission and the gaming control board, and all of those to be sure that the people who came in were credible, and people that could be depended upon to run honest business and to give the gambler a choice or a chance, you know, at the game. Yes. It always, I mean, it always amazes me how a city like Las Vegas, which was considered a small city, in a way. Yes. And then the people were so close and the community so close to itself and not really ready to be just explored by everybody. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 5 Mm-hm. And suddenly you have this change. People come in and then gambling and— Yes. I would say that it might maybe probably shift a little bit, the Las Vegas community, into going into this more or less, activities. Because you have a lot of hotels, you have a lot of restaurants, you have a lot of tourists. Sure. So more or less the people will be going to that side than getting the other thing. Mm-hm. You think it make, it made a little bit of an effect on the population of Las Vegas? Oh sure. I think that’s what built the Strip. I don’t think the Strip would have been there if it hadn’t been for gambling. And I think Downtown Fremont wouldn’t be there, if it hadn’t been for the fact that they built clubs. I mentioned the Boulder Club. But there were other clubs up and down Fremont. I can remember a number of them, which were the result of the gambling industry coming in and providing places for people to come in and gamble. About—another question about Howard Hughes. Mm-hm. It seems everybody—everybody, do you kind of more or less remember things about Howard Hughes that maybe not a lot of people knows about it? Or not a lot of people are—were interested in asking or interested in knowing? Course I can remember all the excitement and the flurry and hubbub that was caused when Howard Hughes came to town. I think most of what I know would be from what I read in the newspapers. And of course the newspapers covered Howard Hughes’s entry quite well: all kinds UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 6 of stories on Howard Hughes’s life, and everything up to the time that he moved here, and how he acted and performed while he was up on the upper floor of the Desert Inn, and how he lived, and his health conditions, and all of those things. All of those things I would know only from what I read in the newspapers, and I was quite interested in everything and I think everybody else was quite interested. And then, of course he came in and bought a number of hotels, a great deal of property—that was vacant around here, which the corporation still owns. So it was really an exciting period in that, at that time, when he was one of our most famous, if not our most famous resident, at that time. But that would be my only connection with it. Because as I say, being in connection—in education, we would have no connection, whatever with that. Except from what we read about, you know, and hear about. I think this would be your domain, education. Yes. That’s right. Would you say that the city of Las Vegas, or maybe the state of Las Vegas coped very well in education—? Mm-hm. With all the changes that happened over here? I mean, the divide, I can see, I’m a student at UNLV, and I can see the changes happening right now. But it seems hard for a city that is just gambling, pure gambling, tourists and entertainment— Mm-hm. To have a strong, strong background, and strong development. This is what I would like to know. It’s very hard for people who don’t live here to understand that this is an ordinary city and all the rest of us are ordinary people. All they can think of is the Strip or maybe Downtown Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 7 and they think that’s all that’s here. I’ve gone to conventions of educators and when I say I’m from Las Vegas they say, “You mean they have schools in Las Vegas?” (Laughs) That’s what my father told me. Yes. (Laughs) When I called him. I say, “Well sure. We have hundreds of thousands of people living around the Strip in regular homes just like everybody else, working in industries that are not connected with gambling.” And we have so many children at this time we have eighty-eight thousand children. Of course at that time it wouldn’t have been as many. “Going to school, we have so many schools. We hire so many teachers.” They’re surprised to get this information. Because they, all they envision is the Strip. You come in and you gamble and you go away—but that’s true. Yes. What kind of basic changes that were needed to kind of shift this whole picture of Las Vegas from—from this entertainment to put people through school and all the procedure that went through it? Especially high school, because I believe that elementary school is very important. Well, of course, the first thing that people want to know when they find out they’re gonna move to Las Vegas, if they’re being transferred here to work at a hotel. If they’re coming here to work in a service that services a hotel, one of the first things they do is write in and ask us something about the schools. You know, they wanna know what kind of schools we have. So we have a regular information services set up right here. So that we can send out all kinds of information. Anything people wanna know about the school district, we handle that for them or we send out information. And then we send out recruiters every year to find teachers. So that we don’t have the same teachers year after year. Or we replace those who leave. They go all over the United UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 8 States with the story of the schools of Las Vegas. So we do quite a bit, in telling people about the kind of schools that we have. The quality of school, they’re excellent, they’re among the best in the United States, and they’re well supported by the state and by the county. And then, the reason that we have sales tax in this state is because it was passed so that we could help support our schools. The students and schools. I would like to ask you that, one more question, and I think this is a very important question. What kind of changes you saw from the time, from let’s say, the area of 1950 up to the area of 19—up to the area of right now? Between all the things that happened, the war after the war, the sixties, the radical sixties, when everybody—what kind of things happened in Las Vegas? How was the reaction of Las Vegas, the city, its people? Well, I guess the thing that I would say is that the great growth of the city. Because you see, we’re one of the fastest growing cities in the United States. And we’re still, I guess we’re still, the fastest growing state, as far as population. I would say that’s probably one of the things, that you notice first of all, is how fast we’ve grown, and how the city has spread out, and the number of people who have moved in. Then of course in addition to that, we have had to have more streets and more highways and more hospitals and we built more schools, everything to keep up with the great population growth. That’s what we have. Mm. And then of course in addition to that, we’ve had other—you said 1950? Yes. Well, that’s thirty years. That’s a period of thirty years. Yes. It is. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 9 Ah, Course by that time Henderson had been built, Henderson came along right after World War II. No, it was built during World War II. Just like Nellis Air Force Base out here was built during World War II. So we had a great deal of activity here during World War II. But that’s before 1950. Yes. Probably the (unintelligible) and during the sixties, all the country and the sixties, you know the draft and the people in Vietnam, and all those things—I, and this is my own personal thinking, I can never imagine that Las Vegas went through this area of people protesting, people fighting, doing all, it’s amazing. I always thought of that. Yes. We had that. During the Vietnam War, we had that. We had protesting against the draft. Every time that comes up. But not on large scales, you know. We have, oh, I should say, since 1950, we’ve well solved the integration problem. Because at one time we had a section of town, which you know as the Westside. Which was ninety-five percent black, at least. And there were the, the schools over there were ninety-nine percent black. Some of them, because it just happened to be the way the city was built. It wasn’t by law. It was just by the way the city was built that, that area became black. And of course, since then, we have been able to do a lot in getting the population better integrated. Our schools over there are integrated. We no longer have schools that had maybe more than well, some of them might be as much as fifty percent black now. But that’s a lot different from ninety-nine percent. Yes. It is. So we have pretty well solved the integration problem. And of course, this area out here, you can find very well integrated, I think. Yes. I think so. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 10 Yes, I think, generally. Right. I think generally— Mm-hm. Las Vegas was a little bit, more than other—probably more than other places. Yes. But then due to its—I guess due to its uniqueness. Because everybody’s obliged over here to do things. Ah, yes. So, I think that’s a point that we want to make. The growth and the fact that we solved integration. And the fact that our legislature has gone a long way to solve the financial problems of the state. When you grow so fast, you know, it takes a lot of money to keep going. And our legislature has been, done a pretty good job of providing funds to keep us going. So, you think Las Vegas, the city of Las Vegas coped well with the growth and all those? I think so. I think that our public officials, I think that our school board, I think that other people who are in charge of meeting this great pressure of growth, I think they have done an excellent job. Now we get all kinds of comment about the lack of public transportation. It’s lousy, it is. (Laughs) That’s one thing we haven’t been able to keep up with. But we’ve been able to keep up, I think pretty well with a lot of the other things. There’s streets and subdivisions and that kind of things that had to be built, you know, to accommodate people. Yes. This is a question, more or less, for the future, do you, I mean do you, would you kind of try to maybe little bit forecast what might happen to Las Vegas maybe in the next five to seven? UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 11 (Laughs) I know it’s hard but you are in a position to more or less to be able to at least focus on what might happen. Well, I think about the only thing we can say is that we’re going to continue to grow. And we’re going to continue to meet this growth. We’re going to have to have more financing. We’re going to either have to have more taxes from some source. The governor has proposed an increased sales tax. There has been suggestion of a higher gambling tax. I think we’re just going to have to do it. Because I think we’re going to continue to grow. And I think we’re going to continue to have more people. I know we’re going to have to continue building more schools. Because we have eighty-eight thousand youngsters in school now. And in another five or ten years, we’re going to have a hundred thousand. ‘Cause they still keep coming. So, everything’s going to be, to be growth, as far as I see. With the winters severe in the eastern states and the northern states— (Laughs) They’re moving to the south. They call ‘em snowbirds, I guess sometimes. (Laughs) Because they come down here. But once they come they stay. They don’t come down just for the winter to keep warm. They stay, you know. Well, it’s a good city. Yes. I think this city got a lot of opportunities for a lot of things. Yes. That’s probably one thing why people come. Yes. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 12 There is maybe over here a problem, I don’t know if it is right now, tragic problem. The security, you got a lot of problems. You got a lot of fights. You got a lot of police and then you have a lot of things like that. Yes. Yes. Do you think the police force could cope in the future? Or at least did it cope since it really started functioning, with the growth of Las Vegas? Of course, this isn’t a problem here only. Yes. It’s a problem nationwide. We have a bad situation nationwide, in controlling the bad element of our population. And police, police forces every place are meeting this problem, you know. Look what’s going on in the bigger cities, which is even worse than what we have. But we do have that problem. We’ve got to figure out some way of coping with this problem. The Metro Police need help. We may have to have more people. Thirty years ago if you told me we would have to have monitors in our halls in the schools, I wouldn’t have believed it. But it’s there. Because we have to do it for protection. So, that’s a big problem and the sheriff recognizes it as a big problem and the commissioners recognize it as a big problem and it’s well, it’s just a big problem that’s all. And we’ve got to meet it somehow. Now I don’t know whether putting more people in jail is the answer or capital punishment is the answer or what’s the best answer. But I think we’re gonna meet it. I think we’re going to meet the problem. Well, it looks shiny for the future of Las Vegas. Yes. Yes. That’s right. At least I think so myself. It’s looks alright. I came over here and went through a lot of changes. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 13 Where’d you come from? I’m from Lebanon. Oh. Yes. I came from Lebanon. But I was in France, when I, before coming over here. Mm-hm. And if I didn’t protect myself, I’ll tell you, Las Vegas is a dangerous city, if you don’t try to maybe little bit cope with the area. Because— I wouldn’t walk Downtown on some of these streets at night by myself. Yes. (Laughs) (Unintelligible) But that’s true. It’s true in Washington, D.C. Yes. You don’t go to Washington, D.C. and walk down the street by yourself at night. I still think over here it’s safest than Washington, D.C. Yes. You know, even Detroit I guess is a, I was thinking was it Boston where I was reading the other night or saw something on TV where there are sections of Boston you wouldn’t— Atlanta. Killing people (unintelligible) Atlanta. Yes. I wouldn’t go out on the street at night in Atlanta, you know. One more thing, one last thing and then we, I’ll thank you for this. Do you have any special maybe kind a memory of something happen in the past that you still recall it that maybe will be useful for my project I mean something unique, any event? Well, this town has always been a town that never went backwards. After the dam was finished, I mentioned that people thought well this will go back to a sleepy railroad system. Just about the time that the dam was finished than World War II was beginning to start. So that caused a great UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 14 imputes, a force of getting the town to grow. And then after World War II was over then there was—that brought Henderson and it brought Nellis Air Force Base in. And then, then the tourist trade started to bulge again, and this whole Strip out here grew, most of it after World War II. Most of all of these big hotels out here. And then, when the tourists trade along came (Laughs) Howard Hughes. And then, you know, so, it’s been a town that’s always had something to give it a push to keep it growing. It’s amazing, it’s amazing. Yes. Yes. Nobody knows, I guess nobody can really imagine that Las Vegas is like this. Mm-hm. Yes. I mean wherever you go you figure it started from desert to all the way to over here. You asked me if I—I didn’t answer that question very well. Because you asked me if I remember anything of a special interest and maybe somebody has already mentioned this to you—but have they talked about Block 16? No. You know when this town was first built in 1905, they marked it all off, in residential sections and business sections. And Block 16 was Downtown at about where First and Ogden is now, and they set that aside for prostitution. And that was the only place where the girls could set up for prostitution and where you could have bars and that kind of thing. And that was there for a long, long time. And I can remember when I first came down here, as a teacher, how surprising it was. Because everybody would snidely say something about Block 16. And that was the reason. And of course, the high school kids, you know, they had automobiles at that time. They would drive down Block 16 and the girls would yell at them. UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 15 (Laughs) It might be on tape, all this. (Laughs) Yes. (Laughs) And (Laughs) they would yell back at the girls but they would keep on going. Because they couldn’t come in. But you know, I could always remember Block 16 and the stories about Block 16. That’s one of the most interesting things about this town. Because it was all set off in that one block. And that’s where all of the prostitution was. Look at it right now. And now you see, yes, now, now, it’s all over, you see. They cut out Block 16 and it’s all over now. They bang on your door. Yes. That’s right. (Laughs) Well, a man and wife can’t go down the street without being accosted anymore. Yes, yes, yes, that’s true. And of course, it’s still illegal. See at that time, I guess it was legal on Block 16. But it’s not legal here in this county. Yes. You understand that there are some counties in the state where it’s legal. So you can set up a whorehouse. But you’re, you’re not supposed to, you can’t do it here. So, all you can do is just let them go in and out of the hotels. (Unintelligible) I know, they’re making a lot of money. I thank you for that. (Laughs) UNLV University Libraries Harvey N. Dondero 16 I really thank you. That was good.