Interview with David Alan Buer, August 9, 2006

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with David Buer August 9, 2006 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Suzanne Becker © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with David Buer August 9, 2006 Conducted by Suzanne Becker Table of Contents Introduction: family background, birth ( San Antonio, TX), raised with sense of social justice, sympathy toward the antiwar movement, education 1 Beginning of spiritual journey: travel to California and back to St. Louis ( 1975), becomes active in Roman Catholic Church 3 Work in Franciscan community in Chicago, IL involvement with Franciscan antinuclear movement, founding of NDE 5 Awareness of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and testing at the NTS 6 First visit to NTS and shutdown of Peace Camp ( 1989) 9 Trial of Father Louis Vitale and other NTS protesters 12 Participation in APT and NDE actions at the NTS ( 1990) 13 Importance of Franciscan presence in developing peaceful protest at NTS, and relationship of NDE to other antinuclear and peace groups 15 Work on staff of NDE ( ca. 1994- 1999) in organizing events, personal meanings surrounding protest actions, interactions with NTS security 17 Family feelings re: increased involvement with antinuclear activities 21 Work and dedication NDE mission over the years, and current involvement in migrant and homeless work ( San Javier Mission, Tucson, AZ) 22 People who have worked with NDE over the years 23 Vision of NDE currently and in its continuing role in affecting people’s lives 24 Role of the desert itself in the antinuclear mission 25 Reasons for longevity of NDE 27 Reflections on work with NDE, relations with NTS security, and benefit of NDE’s continued presence at the NTS 28 Conclusion: final thoughts on working toward a nuclear- free world 31 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with David Buer August 9, 2006 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Suzanne Becker [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Suzanne Becker: Go ahead. David Buer: My name is Brother David Buer. I’m a member of the Franciscan Community of the St. Barbara Province. My grandparents were all immigrants that came to this country from Croatia, Hungaria [ Hungary], and Germany. They all arrived about a hundred years ago, and settled in the St. Louis, Missouri area, so all my aunts and uncles, all my first cousins, we were raised in Granite City, Illinois in the St. Louis area. My dad was drafted during the Korean War and was stationed at Fort Sam Houston, Texas, so that’s why I was born in San Antonio, Texas, but I was actually raised in Granite City, Illinois. When I was in high school, we moved to West St. Louis County. My mom and dad are still there. They’ve been married fifty- four years. Growing up, we had a sense of social justice, mostly from my mother with the support of my father. Granite City is a very racist town, white. The fear was that the African- Americans of East St. Louis would come over to Granite City, so the N- word was used a lot when I was growing up, not in my immediate family but in my extended family; my mom would always confront it, so we had those battles. Martin Luther King was a hero in our house. So there was a sense of social justice, standing up for the oppressed, and also working for peace. We were Kennedy supporters, excited about the leadership of John Kennedy and then Robert Kennedy, and saddened by the assassinations of all of them and Martin Luther King also. I don’t mean to interrupt but where did that sense of social justice, particularly from your mom, come from? What did that stem from? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 I think because [ of] a loving family and the sense of trying to do what’s right, be fair, have a just sense of community, and standing up for the fallen. There’s a Croatian song that my grandma used to sing for me. It’s about a poor little orphan, “ I have no mother, I have no father, and need some help.” I can remember when I was real small a beggar came to the front door of our house or to the yard and he says, Can you go in and get your mom and tell her there’s a bum here who wants a couple of quarters? So I went in and Mom said, Well, I’m not going to give him money but I’ll make a couple of sandwiches for him. I remember Gandhi was appreciated. I remember seeing documentaries about Gandhi and that he was a strange person but very interesting person in his commitment to peace. When the Vietnam War happened, I was of draftable age, and so that drew me into the reality of it but I had no idea of conscientious objection; my mom and dad were not social activists that way so we had no connection that way. When I was eligible for the draft, they were using the lottery system, by your birthdays. Well, when they drew the lottery, my birthday was number nine, so I thought I was going— because if you were one, you were going, 365 you’re safe, right? Well, I was number nine, so I thought I was going. My mom was crying, but I was kind of resigned. Even though I was opposed to the war, I was resigned that I had to go. And I got a notice to show up for the physical, and there was about fifty of us and we all passed, and they said, Well, you’ll be hearing from us, and then that’s when Nixon ended the draft, so it was that close for me. That’s very close! So that must’ve been a pretty overwhelming experience. You get a sense of being resigned to things. The world’s out of my hands and my life is out of my hands and so I’m turning it over to somebody else. I went through that experience without having to do it. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 I was sympathetic to the antiwar movement, although again I wasn’t personally involved at all. But I can remember in my high school, when I moved from more conservative Granite City to a progressive, West St. Louis County, suburban high school system, we had some progressive teachers there. The day after Kent State happened, we talked about it in class. There was another professor that we had who was talking and he was sympathetic to those who had burnt down the ROTC [ Reserve Officers Training Corps] building, I think at Washington U. [ University] in St. Louis, so I remember that discussion, too. So it was heady times. And so that sounds like it maybe set the background— well, I guess you’ve always had the background to be thinking about social justice and social issues. Where did you go after high school? I went to a couple of years of college and then I worked in the St. Louis area. Then I went through a period where I was really searching: What’s the meaning of life? Because I had got to the point where I was basically an agnostic, and I got to the point of saying, There’s got to be more than just making a paycheck. So I took a duffle bag and a backpack and sixty- five bucks and hitchhiked out to California. This would’ve been in February of ’ 75. And for me, what came out of that was the beginning of a spiritual journey, which led me to the Catholic Church. I was baptized Catholic but not raised Catholic. We would go to Mass on Easter and Christmas and weddings and that kind of thing, and I had some cousins that went to a Catholic school. What were you doing? What was your job at the time when you decided to leave? [ 00: 05: 00] Well, I had worked at McDonalds Hamburgers for a while, then I was a car salesman for a while— I had a lot of conscious qualms when I went into car sales. I was only a car salesman for about four months. I was twenty years old. So then it was after that when I left the car salesmanship and then I decided to go out to California. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 Where did you go? I went to San Diego not knowing anybody. Again, the key thing for me was this what’s- the- meaning- of- life kind of thing, and I thought, Oh, I’ll go to San Diego— it was February and I figured the further south I went into California, the warmer it would be. The first day I made it from St. Louis to Tulsa. The second day was very frustrating, I only got to Oklahoma City from Tulsa. I can point to the beginning of my spiritual journey as an adult from that moment. It was around midnight and it was like hardly any cars and it was wide open and very flat in Oklahoma and I was very frustrated. Well, God, if you’re up there, I could sure use some help right now. Kind of from a very deep place. And about five minutes later a car that was going to Riverside, California stopped and picked me up. So I continued my journey to California and then down to San Diego. When I got down to San Diego, I got a few odd jobs. Then one day I saw a guy, an older man at a beach house pulling weeds, and I asked if I could earn a few extra bucks and help him out, and he said yeah. So we started talking and he said, Well, my wife and I live in town. This is a house we’ve had for twenty- five years and we rent it out but it’s empty right now, we want to do some renovation, and if you want to, you can stay in this house for free. Don’t bring anybody in else off the beach. And I’ll come in every day from my house and we’ll work on putting in the patio and do some roofing work and stuff. So here I had a beach house which in 1975 was $ 450 a month. The house is still there. I just saw it this past January. So it was the beginning of a spiritual journey. I began praying. I read through the Bible. It was like a hermitage experience for those several months that I was there. And basically from that I went back to my hometown, moved into some very cheap housing that my extended family owned, and got a job with a farmer that was neighbors to my UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 godparents. They had a horseradish and corn farm, and so I did that seasonal work, and I just paid my rent up a year ahead. It was a real hermitage time. And that’s when I read about St. Francis [ of Assisi]— and again going to Mass regularly. And after about a year of going to Mass I felt drawn to join the Church and had my First Communion and First Confession and my Confirmation in my early twenties. So how did your family feel about that? As they saw the longer that it went along, the more supportive they were. When they saw that it had some roots to it, I think the more supportive they were. My mom is a spiritual person and she’s Catholic but not always practicing, and my dad’s more of an agnostic. But I had a lot of extended family members that were Catholic and they were very happy for me and supportive. And then reading about St. Francis, I met some Franciscans; I got invited to go up to Chicago, and I was in Chicago for about ten years, living in different Franciscan communities, and that’s when I met Father Jerry Zawada, in 1979 up in a Franciscan community up there. Where did you live in Chicago, basically? The first year in the South Shore neighborhood, there was a friar community there, that was just for one year; then in Uptown where I met Father Jerry, and then one year in the Near Southwest Side, we had a house, and the last five years was on the West Side. We helped get a shelter going for the homeless. You were all over the city. Yeah, in a ten- eleven- year period, but all with the Franciscans, doing different things with the friars. So I was interested in joining the friars. I joined the secular Franciscans, which is like a laypersons’ fraternity, but living with the friars and working with the friars. And there was one UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 friar especially, Father Phil Marquard, that I worked closely with the homeless. He was out of the downtown church, St. Peter’s, a large Franciscan church in downtown Chicago, in the Loop. So with St. Francis, one of the attractions is the great love of creation. I think all my life I have enjoyed being outside and playing under the clouds and the trees and animals. And I was attracted to the Catholic Worker movement also at that time. And it made sense to me— the horror of the nuclear bomb. And in the early eighties they opened up a peace museum in Chicago where the first display was a display of the artwork of the Hibakusha. I don’t know if you ever saw that. I’ve seen the artwork. I think it had just been done and it was just touring the world at that time. This was very moving. And I remember reading the book Hiroshima by John Hersey and I remember I was volunteering, the friar community was in Uptown. I was walking down to the Lakeview neighborhood food pantry to volunteer, and I just remember reading the book, walking by [ 00: 10: 00] Wrigley Field during a day game and reading and you know the instantaneousness of the bomb, how just all of a sudden everything is just changed, and that could happen here. Boy, that must’ve been— had a lot of thoughts going through your head, being in the middle of Chicago thinking about that. Yes, it was very deep, it’s a powerful book, a powerful little book. And so then I heard about— in I think it would be the late seventies or early eighties, before Nevada Desert Experience [ NDE] began— there was a little group called the Franciscans in Nuclear Resistance. There were a lot of names of people I never knew, I came to know them years later, but they were people mostly based out of the West because Father Louis Vitale was Provincial at the time. And so they did this national little newsletter and started talking about gatherings at the [ Nevada] test site [ NTS]. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 And I come to find out, and as you’ve probably heard, Sister Rosemary Lynch and Sister Klaryta [ Antoszewska] and Father Louie and a handful of others, they began in 1977 the presence out at the test site. So that’s kind of the prehistory of Nevada Desert Experience. Right, the little nucleus that it seems to have sprung from. Exactly. And then the impetus was the worldwide celebration of the eight- hundredth birthday of St. Francis. And so from that, they began getting people from around the country and they began organizing. So I heard of it. I was aware of that, although I was living in Chicago at the time. When you were growing up, did you have an awareness of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Was that something that you had? I mean obviously you were, you know, conscious, you came to consciousness well after that had happened, but I’m just wondering if it’s— I was aware of it but I don’t think the horror of it. It was in my early development of my spiritual life is where the real kind of gut- level horror— Right. So you had an intellectual understanding of it. You know, reading the Catholic Worker— don’t know if you’ve ever seen this or anybody has directed you to it— but right after the bomb was dropped, Dorothy Day in that next issue of the Catholic Worker, she had the horror of it. And while everybody else is jubilant and jumping for joy, she saw the horror of it. I read that, one of my first years in Chicago I came across articles like that and I was very moved by that argument and that perspective. Right. And so you mostly started to become more aware of it when you got to Chicago and became more involved with Catholic Worker? Yes, yes. And then Pope John Paul II visited Hiroshima in ’ 81 or ’ 82 and I was very aware when he did that and the statement he made. I don’t have a copy of it now but I remember it’s a very good statement about recognizing the gravity of that atomic bombing. Then there is the statement UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 of Pope Paul VI: This is a butchery. Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a butchery of untold magnitude. Very strong. It is very strong. Strong statement. So you’re now, it sounds like you’re in this place where you’re in Chicago, you’re aware of the folks on the West Coast and things that go on at the Nevada Test Site—? I was aware. In ’ 87 they had the ninetieth birthday of Dorothy Day. She had already died but they had the first gathering and I was very aware. I would’ve loved to have gone but there was no way. At that time I took a one- year sabbatical in the midst of my ten, eleven years in Chicago. I went to the Catholic Worker farm in West Virginia. So I was there when they had this thing out on the West Coast. Did you know much about the test site prior to—? Well, I can tell you, I didn’t know— having read about it and about the Peace Camp they had and everything, so I can remember very clearly my mental vision of what I thought it was. I envisioned a little two- lane dirt road, and somewhere off of this two- lane dirt road there was this little tent set up with maybe a little shack and that was the Peace Camp. So I actually saw it as something a little bit different. I was surprised at how close to the major highway it was. I was surprised at how close the gates were and the town of Mercury being there. So when I first saw the test site was ’ 89. So I came out here to join the Franciscans out here on the West Coast and I had my candidacy year here, so I was here from ’ 89 to ’ 90. So I came for a come- and- see for two weeks in June of 1989, and Father Louie was here, Father Alain Richard who you may have come across, his name, the French Franciscan who was living here, and I had known him from Chicago. He had been in Chicago before he came out West. So I met him as he was leaving Chicago and coming out West. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 And so they took me out. They were excited to show me. At that time they had just put up the pens [ holding areas for protestors who have crossed the boundary of the NTS] because they had discontinued sending people to Tonopah and Beatty by that time. And they had just done the action I think earlier that year where they had gone to the Mercury— they did the walk- in to Mercury. To the old chapel? Yeah, that’s a great story. Yes. Exactly. So they were telling me about this, and actually one of the guys that was a part of that project was there with Louie and Alain telling the story as they were recollecting it. And we climbed up Pagoda Hill. I remember we climbed up Pagoda Hill together. Describe a little bit where that is. You know it’s across the highway from the gate of the test site and it would be to the north, on the northern edge of where the Peace Camp had been set up, and they’ve got two large piles of [ 00: 15: 00] rocks up there. They were there already when I was there in ’ 89, so sometime in the eighties probably they were built. So what were your first impressions, do you remember, when you got out there and you actually saw the test site? You know, very moved, and the Peace Camp was going on, and so all this was happening. The two weeks I was here was the time they were going to shut down the Peace Camp which had been ongoing there for several years, I think. And so I ended up going out there— I was there for the day that they tore it down. So I was interviewed on television and Louie and Alain invited me to be out there with them and I chose to be out there with the people. And we knew they were going to come. They had said, In twenty- four hours we’re going to come in and take away the Peace Camp. And the issue was they were not going to recognize that they had to UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 ask permission to be there from BLM [ Bureau of Land Management]. BLM said, Just ask for our permission, we’ll give you permission. But out of principle they weren’t because they said, This is Shoshone land and we have the Shoshone’s permission to be here. So because of that, they didn’t get the paperwork— And so it was the BLM that was coming in or it was the test site security? Wackenhut? Along with other authorities, so there were several levels of authority. State troopers were there. It was quite a procession that day when they came. They had flatbed trucks because they were going to haul away the trailers. Now, talk about Peace Camp a little bit because I don’t know that it’s actually been described on tape. Charlie Hilfenhaus would be the one, if you know Charlie, and I only got the tail end of it, but there were several trailers, again we’re talking sixteen, seventeen years ago now but it was— And these were structures that were permanently or, you know, put on quasi- permanently on the land and it actually formed an encampment. Quasi- permanently, yeah. They had little pathways lined with rocks. They had a pet rattlesnake in one of the pits somewhere. I kept away from that. And they would have common meals together. And I think when I was there, there might’ve been six or eight people. We’re pretty sure that a guy that came in on a motorcycle the night before was an undercover guy. So our final night there together was kind of, Let’s keep an eye— A little subdued? Yeah, subdued and out of place, but probably he was just checking out to see if we were all peaceniks or what we were, which we were peaceniks. And I remember this beautiful full moon over the desert. And from what I was told by the stories there, people would always be coming UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 and going; and there was quite a network of people over the years. And I suppose, I don’t know how well they were structured but I’m sure there were some people who took responsibility for bottom- lining things, to make sure there was a certain presence there, but I’m not sure how that was set up. Diana Hirschi is a woman out in Salt Lake City; she was involved with the Peace Camp. She’s still around. A friend of hers came to this last August Desert Witness this past week. So that was the camp. And then there were the Shadow Children. Now, whether they were there then or they had— I think they were already there, and so that was a hike you had to kind of know how to line it up with Pagoda Hill and find your way to find it, but it was quite moving to see that. I think they were there already but I’m not sure. It might’ve been later. No, I think they were there in ’ 89. I think that’s correct. That was quite moving to see. So you had the Peace Camp area, it was a smaller area where the people were actually staying, but then there was this extended area and you might have people who would set up tents a little bit more remote. And then even further out you have peace signs made out of white rocks that were found or pictures. Near the Shadow Children there were pictures of loved ones who’d been affected by testing put out on the rocks ceremoniously and lovingly, and people would leave their names and other mementos. Now the Shadow Children are gone, though. They are gone? I don’t know. Well, I have seen them within the last several years. You have. OK. They’re deteriorating. But if they’re gone, that’s news to me. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 Maybe they’re just deteriorating. I didn’t get out that far, so I don’t know. There should be some remnants. Have you really tried to find them? I’ve only quasi- tried to find them because the times that I’ve been out there it’s been getting to be towards sunset. Well, I suspect they’re still there, so if you want to make an extra effort sometime— Or very early in the morning, and then we usually do the procession to the gates of— I’ll try to do that— The last time I tried to find them, I found them, within the last several years. OK. Well, that’s good to know. So that was your first trip out there, and then what—? Yes, and then I chose not to be arrested but they arrested four people. I was there two weeks in June, and then I came back in October and moved here. And then their trials were taking place, so I attended some of the trials of these people, as well as the trials for Father Louie and those who had been involved in the Mercury action. And I was present when the judge [ in a Las Vegas courtroom] was somewhat moved by this whole presentation in his courtroom with Louie Vitale and when he said, Will the accused arise, the whole courtroom rose. [ 00: 20: 00] Yeah, I’ve actually had a couple of people describe the proceedings in the courtroom around Father Louie and the exchange with the judge and this was at the point— I’ve heard, I guess, a couple of different stories, or maybe you can describe it a little bit, the proceedings that you recall. That’s it. It was very moving. You could tell the judge was respectful and the courtroom was packed, and Louie’s mom and dad was even there. Right. So that is the story. That was the picture in the paper the next day, of Louie walking out with his mom and dad. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 Yeah, that’s a good story. So how large was that action that you attended, that first one, do you remember? Well, the first thing was the tearing down of the Peace Camp; so there was probably just a dozen of us, and it seemed like there was twenty vehicles that the authorities had brought, and different authorities, you know, state level, county level, Wackenhut, or that would be before Wackenhut, whatever the name of them was. And the media was there. There was TV coverage because it was all public that this is what would happen, and it did. And so it was moving to be a part of that. So then the first action I remember, there might’ve been a few small ones that I attended, but then American Peace Test [ APT] had a large action in the spring of 1990, and they’d asked me if I could help pick up some of their people at the airport and bring them out to the test site. So it was a very resurrection experience for me, after having been there when the Peace Camp was torn down, to come back in whether it was March or April of 1990 and to see like a thousand tents set up. On that little piece of property. It was further down the highway. It was further up highway ’ 95. Oh, I know where that is. Yeah, you have to go— yeah. Yeah, there’s like a little cliff area in there, yeah. And so it was such a joy to see that, it was so alive, and that’s when I think I met Jack and Felice Cohen- Joppa who do the Nuclear Resister magazine, they were there. They put the Nuclear Resister out together. It’s a regular newsletter that’s been going out for twenty- five- plus years. Out of Tucson, actually. And that was dramatic because we hosted two young people from East Germany who came for that event, and we UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 hosted them here and they got to know the friar community. They had a part in helping to bring down the Berlin Wall. Oh, yeah, that was just right after that. Yeah, that had just happened, and they were basically telling us that they all got co- opted; that it was a grassroots young people’s movement to bring it down and then the movement got co- opted, but they were still jubilant with all that had happened. And so they had gone out to the test site. And that’s when I first met Corbin Harney. I got to help him take down his tipi at the end of the event. But NDE had other events that spring. Very moved by it. There was one that was called Roses in the Desert, you know, in the midst of this dry desert and all of a sudden everybody got a rose who was involved with the action. And we had Franciscans from around the country coming and other people of goodwill. I had been impressed by the NDE events from what I had read about them before attending them and then by attending them I was very moved by the sense of liturgy and prayer that was involved in the protest, and the love for the opponent. Right. Right. I think that is a very unique aspect of protest and of NDE protest in particular, and I had the opportunity to do an oral history with [ former Nye County Sheriff] Jim Merlino and that’s one thing that he said, which I was really surprised to hear, is that one of the first exchanges that he had with NDE really set the way that that protest out there happened. He I think had been hoping for a peaceful experience but really was impressed that there was contact and communication. Maybe I could say something about the importance, from what I see, the importance of the Franciscan presence here that helped to develop all this. And Louie Vitale personified that; but the fact that there was this praying community here, Rosemary and Klaryta came in 1977, it just UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 kind of like sparked and they [ said], Let’s focus on the test site, and as people came through here they were moved to that. It was very much grounded. So that love of the opponent was grounded in, the spirituality and prayer life of this community, and I think it influenced even non- Catholics or non- Christians. They got involved. [ 00: 25: 00] I think it did, too. I was going to ask you if you could describe, at least from your perspective, what NDE’s relationship was with groups like American Peace Test and other— because I know at several times there were lots of large actions that were made up of many different groups that had come out there, and so what is NDE’s relationship to these groups? Well, I would say, I don’t know if you got this story yet, but American Peace Test was founded right in this back house over here [ at Nevada Desert Experience in Las Vegas]. No, I actually didn’t know that. Yes. It might’ve been after an NDE event or something. They had people from the Freeze Movement, and so those who wanted to start doing civil disobedience in the Freeze Movement, I guess had realized that the Freeze wasn’t going to be going that direction and so American Peace Test was founded. And there was a meeting in the back house here. Jessie Cocks, I don’t know if you’ve run across her name— I have. She was part of that, and then with Jim and Shelley Douglass, she was here for that, and others. I wasn’t here but I got this secondhand and it’s been confirmed several times over that this actually happened here. That’s good to know. And so, from the very beginning there was an intertwining between American Peace Test and Nevada Desert Experience; we were more narrowly focused in the perimeters of faith- based and UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 American Peace Test was much larger. I think they were very much active in the colleges and universities and had a national scope to it, much broader than NDE. I would say, as far as organizing and getting people out here because they’re the ones that created the large events with thousands of people. I guess the largest was about five thousand, something like that, that came out here at one time. Well, I mean this makes sense to me now because I’d been reading some things that have been written about American Peace Test and some