Transcript of interview with Gerald Gordon by Barbara Tabach, November 02, 2016

AN INTERVIEW WITH GERALD GORDON An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ?Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV ? University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes, Amanda Hammar iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader?s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas iv PREFACE In 1961, at the age of thirteen, Gerald ?Jerry? Gordon became a bar mitzvah. This typical coming of age celebration was unusual in that he had simultaneously studied in both his home state of California and his adopted home of Las Vegas, where he spent summers with his grandparents. 1961 is also the same year that the Gordons made Las Vegas their permanent home. Jerry graduated from Las Vegas High School, attended University of Nevada, Las Vegas and earned his law degree from University of California, Los Angeles. His gregarious and trustworthy personality led him to career building steps in the legal community of Las Vegas that included illustrious names such as Louis Wiener, Jr., David Goldwater, Neil Galatz, and many others. His personal law specialty became bankruptcy, especially dealings with hotel/casinos. As a member of the Jewish community, Jerry?s energy and expertise to organize was instrumental in the construction of Congregation Ner Tamid, the reform synagogue, at its site on Valle Verde and I-215. It was a multi-year process and includes a vast array of stories?a cash donation from Moe Dalitz, finalization of receiving of a donation land from the Greenspun family during the High Holy Days, and the ongoing challenges of a building campaign during a recession. In addition, he explains that CNT included two unique negotiations: 1) a cell tower and 2) a solar field on the synagogue?s property. Jerry and his wife Yvonne met while attending UNLV. Yvonne taught math at various levels in the Clark County School District. They raised their two children, Sara and Jeffry, in Las Vegas, and forged an important role together in Congregation Ner Tamid. In April 2017, they were among those honored for their work with the synagogue. v TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Gerald Gordon November 2, 2016 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Barbara Tabach Preface????????????????????????????.??????..iv Reflects on the Hillary Clinton/Donald Trump election that is winding up; explains that paternal family name was Goldstein, Yiddish-speaking Eastern Europeans who settled in Los Angeles and how the name Gordon came about. Talks about maternal lineage: Kishner, from Ukraine, and settled in New York and Philadelphia. Kishner grandparents married, raised family in Los Angeles, where he was born. His parents move to Las Vegas to follow grandfather Ben Kishner and other family members?????????????????????????????.?.1 ? 3 Father attended USC and engineer for Douglas Aircraft in Santa Monica and changed last name from Goldstein; Merchant Marine; tuberculosis for two years. Jerry became bar mitzvah in San Francisco; father was on temple board there; also, AZA adviser. Talks about family traditions; spending summers in Las Vegas due to his asthma and studied for bar mitzvah here during those months; though raised in reform synagogue, joined Temple Beth Sholom when moved to Las Vegas; then Congregation Ner Tamid; grandparents had small motels, Biltmore Apartments/Inn, Monaco; small town feeling; attended Las Vegas High School????????..???...3 ? 6 Talks about friends from high school; met Yvonne, his wife, while at UNLV; they lived in LA while he attended UCLA Law School. Explains how Yvonne?s parents moved to Las Vegas when her father took a position with Bureau of Reclamation. Tells how he took law position with Louis Wiener Jr., his interview, and being youngest in the firm; choosing to specialize in bankruptcy; David Goldwater; Charles/Chuck Thompson; Neil Galatz; Tom Bigger; Gardner Jolley; Herb Waldman; Jeff Silver; firm name changes over the years??????????????.7 ? 10 Describes changes he has seen and experienced as someone who grew up in Las Vegas; prefers city now; bankruptcy cases and where entities file; building his practice; brother Marc Gordon also a Las Vegas attorney for Yellow Cab. Talks about raising children in Las Vegas and in the local Jewish community; his children?s shtick about being from Las Vegas; wife taught math at different grade levels; getting Jewish holidays off; David Canter, CCSD board member?????11 ? 16 Details about his involvement with Congregation Ner Tamid; Kenny Schnitzer, high school friend was president; building fund gift of money from Moe Dalitz, arranged by David Goldwater; being asked to help with a loan from Bank of Las Vegas. Explains why it is not a good practice for banks to foreclose on organizations like churches; First Interstate Bank foreclosed on a YMCA; Jerry Mack, Parry Thomas, Valley Bank. Decisions and challenges of moving and building the new vi synagogue building; Mel Hecht; Greenspun family; Rabbi Sanford Akselrad and the land on Valle Verde and I-215?????????????????????????????..17 ? 23 Decision and negotiations to honor Greenspuns for donation of the land; visionary section with the chapel; his annual appeal for building campaign at Rosh Hashanah; story of announcing land donation; kindness and trust exhibited by Greenspuns. Bob Unger, head of construction; Jane Radoff interior design; Jon Sparer architectural and interiors; project started in 1999 and announced in 2001; Jack Ross Estate donation helped with classroom area?????..?24 ? 29 Explains ancillary aspects of Congregation Ner Tamid: cell tower and solar field ? the challenges and benefits of these two projects; sold former Ner Tamid building to Church of Scientology. His personal move from west side of valley to Henderson due to his work with temple; Yvonne?s involvement in the building project; her making of yarmulkes for numerous occasions; selection of items to salvage from Emerson location for the new temple on Valle Verde ????...30 ? 36 vii 1 Today is November 2, 2016. Heading into the last couple of months of the year and here we are. Yes. One week away from knowing what the results are of the election and having that over with. Oh, has this been the longest ordeal ever? Yes. I was reading yesterday in the New York Times; they said that about 52, 53 percent of the population is in extreme stress over the election (Donald Trump versus Hillary Clinton). Yes, I believe it. Yes. I don't even want to turn the TV on in the morning anymore. But this is Barbara Tabach and I'm sitting with Jerry Gordon. We're going to talk today, kind of supplement what we talked about during the Congregation Ner Tamid panel. I want to know more about your family. Let's start with your family ancestry and how you grew up. What do you know about your roots? That kind of background story. My roots are...My mother [Miriam Gordon] was born in New York; my father [David Gordon] was born in Los Angeles. My father's parents: My grandfather was Morris Goldstein and he came from wherever...And my father's mother was known as Goldie Goldstein and her hair was apparently very blond. She was an extraordinarily good-looking woman. She came from the same somewhere in Eastern Europe. My grandfather died when I was like four or five years old. So I don't remember him at all. As far as my grandmother is concerned, she just spoke Yiddish and lived in the Fairfax area of L.A. She had twenty-five grandchildren. So I wasn't that big of a deal. I just remember her being small and speaking Yiddish. 2 Did you ever speak Yiddish with her? No, no. My mother's parents: My grandmother Charlotte was born in New York. Her parents came from Hungary. My grandfather was born in the Ukraine and came to the country Benjamin Kishner and he came to the country when he was like four or five. He grew up in Philadelphia and New York, met my grandmother there, and they came out to Los Angeles. So everyone basically came to Los Angeles; that's where my mother met my father. His brother and her first cousin introduced them. So there's a real mishmash of relationships there, "a third cousin plus an aunt" type of thing. So that's my parents, the ancestry. I was born in Los Angeles, lived there for four years or five years, and then my parents moved to the Bay Area, actually Daly City. I remained there until I was fourteen when they moved here. My parents moved here where my mother's parents, the Kishners, were located. And I've been here ever since. So which Kishner? There were a series of Kishners. There were three Kishners who came to this town in the early fifties. It was my grandfather Ben (Kishner). It was his brother Morey Kishner. And my grandfather was the youngest of the children, Morey was the next youngest of the children, and the oldest child?so there's a big spread?had a son named Herman. So Herman was actually first cousins to my grandfather and Morey even though he was the same age. So Herman Kishner was here, though I at least called him Uncle Herman because he was old. You do that out of respect, right? Yes. And so the first two that came here were Morey and Herman. Morey came from Los 3 Angeles where he was a developer. Herman came from New York where he was a developer. They came here in the early fifties and started developing. My grandfather only came here and joined them and for the most part had a small interest, but managed properties for them. Ultimately my father came here because they were getting on in age and he came here to assist in management. There's one other Kishner in town and that's Irwin Kishner. Irwin is a second cousin once removed to me. He was the nephew of Herman Kishner and Herman brought him here from Miami to assist in his developments. Okay. So that's how all the Kishners are related. They're all related. I had no idea. Not very many people came with that much family here. No. It was rare. So when we came here, yes, all the family was here. I saw family all the time. Irwin obviously was married and had two daughters. Herman was married and had two children. He got married late in life and had two children. So, yes, it was a mishmash of family here. So where does the last name Gordon come from? My father after the war [World War II] messed around and just...whatever he did and then went?sometime after I was born?went back to USC to get his engineering degree. Probably around 1952 or '53?I was maybe four or five years old?he applied for a job?at least this is what he told me?he applied for a job with Douglas Aircraft, which is now McDonnell Douglas. And Douglas Aircraft was building planes in Santa Monica; he was an engineer. They told him that they would like to hire him. Well, they could not because he had a Jewish name. So in order to get hired?and they told him he that had to change the name. It was the early fifties. So he changed the name to Gordon to the consternation of the rest of the family obviously, all of his 4 brothers and sisters, and he chose the name Gordon. The irony is that he went back to school and he decided he didn't want to be an engineer and he left USC, as he told me, short six credits. What kind of man was your father? Strong, very family oriented, quiet, supportive. An example of what his strength was: After he came back from the war?he was on the Merchant Marine with all the other Jews in the South Pacific?and after my mother got pregnant with me, he came down with active tuberculosis. So he went into the VA Hospital in Los Angeles. Again, what I've been told: He was there almost three years. The first two years he never got out of bed because then they didn't have drugs and tuberculosis was in the lungs. So he laid there basically doing nothing for two years. Never got up. Never did anything other than roll around on a bed. So he was a very disciplined individual, very kind, very supportive. Was being Jewish spiritually a big part of your growing up with your parents? No, no. I was bar mitzvahed in San Francisco. Then when we got here, we were active at Temple Beth Sholom. In fact, my father was on the board for a period of time. He was the adviser to the AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph fraternal organization] chapter for about ten years, twelve years. So Judaism was important to the family, but it was not the religious aspects of it. More of a social gathering? The social, the traditions; that type of thing. The traditions, yes, yes. How did you celebrate? With so much family here, I'm imagining that maybe you had a different experience of the family getting together for the holidays and such or...? Yes. For the holidays, yes. But, no, it was very much more with my grandparents. Herman would float in and out. Morey would celebrate with his side of the family. That type of thing. 5 Who did all the cooking? My Grandmother Charlotte. My mother was not a good cook. No, she did all the cooking. And what was Temple Beth Sholom like? Did you get involved? Yes. I had a strange relationship with Temple Beth Sholom. I did my final bar mitzvah training there because my grandmother...Before we moved here permanently, I came here in the summertime and the winter. I had bad asthma. So when we moved to San Francisco, literally from the day summer began to the day summer ended, I was put on a plane and flown down to here and spent the whole summer. And the same with Christmas vacation, winter vacation, from the day it started to the day before it ended, I would be flown down here. So I spent a tremendous amount of my time with my grandparents. So for bar mitzvah training, while I was up in San Francisco, I continued during the summertime with Cantor Kohn. So I had experience with Beth Sholom. Then when we got back, when we moved here permanently, my parents joined and I was very active in AZA, which was at Beth Sholom. And then when I went away to law school and college and that type of thing, we belonged and we'd go to High Holidays and things like that, but not active. Then when we got back?my wife and I?from law school, we joined Beth Sholom. In fact, well,?Yvonne is a Jew by choice?she converted at Beth Sholom during law school and we were married at Beth Sholom by Rabbi Gold. So we belonged, but not active; went to services every so often; went to High Holidays. I never felt comfortable at Beth Sholom [a conservative synagogue] because I was really raised reform. We started attending Ner Tamid and then we switched and we're at Ner Tamid. 6 Especially when our daughter was about four, that's when we joined permanently at Ner Tamid. So you're, what, thirteen when you moved here permanently, or fourteen? I was fourteen, ninth grade. What was Las Vegas like? That must have been 1961? 1962. Well, I had been here before. So for me it wasn't...It was small. Okay. So you kind of had?you eased into that. Yes. My grandparents at first lived?they operated properties, and so they lived at a small motel when I was young, very young, and I spent a summer there on Biltmore, at the Biltmore Inn or something, Biltmore Apartments or something on Biltmore at Sahara, which was the outskirts of town. Then they lived at?when they opened a motel on the Strip?the Monaco; they lived there for a few years as managers. Then they bought a house over on Santa Paula. So I grew up in that area. When my parents came here, they bought that house. So it was a small town. It was small. The Jewish population was really centered around Beth Sholom. In other words, this outpost of Jews out around Decatur and Alta. But it was small. I had all Jewish friends. We went to Las Vegas High where the only Jewish population really was. Who were your friends that you grew up with here? Most of them moved away. Kenny Schnitzer moved away. David London is a psychiatrist, professor of psychiatry at Yale. A couple of others are attorneys that moved away. Larry Brown is still in town. Most of them moved. Most of them are not here. So what kept you here? What brought you back? You said you went to law school. I went to UCLA. That's where you met Yvonne. 7 No. I met her at UNLV. I'm an undergrad of UNLV. So I met her when I was a senior and she was a sophomore. I went to UCLA and at the middle of my second year is when we got married. She graduated. And then the day after she graduated we got married. So you together made a?was she from Vegas originally, too? No. She moved here for college. Her parents moved here. Her father was with the Bureau of Reclamation and he came here as a supervisor of the water project, the first one from Lake Mead. Her family moved here. She has three brothers and sisters. She had a scholarship to Stanford and her father said, "I think you really should go to UNLV. It's up the street"?type of thing?"up the road." So she went to UNLV. So we met. After she graduated then she came down to California and she worked during my last year when I went to school and then we came back. There was no other question about coming back for several reasons. One, both of our families were here. And number two, I knew I had an easier place getting a job than in L.A. I had family and my family was connected. In fact, two members of the bar examiners represented my family. In fact, when I went for my interview for the bar?at that time you had to go interview no matter who you were and they wanted to check your residency. You had to be a resident for a year and I kept my residency. When I walked into the room, I didn't know. And two of them said, "Hey, Jerry, how's your uncle? How's your grandfather?" And I knew it was not?there wasn't going to be any difficulty anyway in terms of the interview, but it was kind of nice knowing them. But during my second year I came back and interviewed with Lou Wiener at Wiener Goldwater and Galatz. I interviewed with him, going to his home, watching a UNLV game on 8 TV; that was my interview. He hired me. Louis Wiener, Jr? Yes. I went to work that coming summer as a clerk at Wiener Goldwater Galatz...And then it was Raggio for that summer; Raggio joined. So I had a job and I knew I had a job and I came back. That's kind of an illustrious list of names that ran that firm in the history of Las Vegas. Right, right. What were those personalities like? When I first started? Yes, as a young attorney, learning the ropes that way. It was three totally different personalities. Louie, I second chaired trials and tried with him for maybe four or five years. My first trials with Louie, my first trials were three capital cases where I second chaired with him and a very lengthy case with regard to the Horseshoe. He was a marvelous trial attorney. My job was to prepare everything for him. He was a marvelous man. He was very quick, very sharp, very good to me. Neil was only there for a few years because he had left and went and started his own personal injury firm. But Neil knew how to build a practice and knew the business of law, which is really interesting. I learned a tremendous amount from him about the business of law. In fact, most of the practices of that firm in the years going forward were predicated on his methodologies and his philosophy as to how a law firm should operate. He was the one that was crucial for my future because he was the one that said to me, "The practice is changing." I was practicing a year or two. I was the youngest man in the firm. When I started as an attorney, there were eleven in the firm; I was the eleventh. So I did uncontested divorces. I did 9 arraignments in justice court. I second chaired. I tried some really tiny, little trials. Just kind of did whatever was left to do, research. He was the one who told me that you need to have a specialty; the law is changing. I searched around and I found, gee, there's a new bankruptcy act code coming into place in a few years and the fees are going to be different and that should be where I am. I thought about it. And I went to Louie and Louie says, "Ah, whatever." And David Goldwater said, "What do you mean; spend the money and send you to a seminar in L.A.?" And Neil said, "Absolutely, you go." And so I went and that was the start of my career in terms of what I did and what I do. David was a very good attorney. He was more of what you consider to be a model attorney. He was lousy at business. I had my disagreements with him. He was a fine attorney. They were just a good, strong litigation firm. There were other people in the firm. Chuck Thompson went on?Charles Thompson?to become a judge. He was there. In fact, I took over his practice after a few years when he went on the bench. But the people that went through the firm were just incredible. Alan Earl went on to be a judge. He left with Neil. Tom Bigger was there. He and Gardner Jolley were my mentors and Jolley went on with Jolley Urga. So there were people that went through and left. I was the only one that didn't leave. Why did you stay? I don't make changes very often. I stayed because I was able to grow in the firm. I was able to establish a platform. After a few years when Neil left, even though I was an associate, I was, in essence, running the firm. There was another partner, Herb Waldman, who was Louie's nephew. He became a partner. So the firm changed names and ultimately the firm became Wiener Goldwater Waldman and Gordon. So I was given a partnership after seven years and I never left. So as the name changed I moved up and ultimately I became the senior partner. 10 What was one of the more interesting cases that you worked on that you can share anything about? Do you have highlights in your career there? No. No, it's just work. And some of the highlights would be not even worth talking about, some things that I was able to do or achieve, pushing the envelope, coming up with different theories of winning. It just was a very...It grew, the firm, obviously. Louie retired. In essence, Louie just didn't want to really practice anymore in that type of environment. So he left and he went with Jim Rogers and Channel 3 and did his thing there and ultimately he passed away. David left and went on his own. He just didn't like the constraints of a law firm in that respect. Herb didn't like it as we grew. It got up to thirteen attorneys and he didn't feel comfortable. So he left and then he passed away about fifteen years ago. He was a great partner. He was a partner for eighteen years. And then Jeff Silver joined in about 1984 and it became Gordon and Silver. So the firm was still that firm. It started in '67 and it folded about a year ago, maybe six, seven, eight months ago. So even though the names changed, the core was the same. Well, under ethical rules and bar rules and Nevada rules, if someone left you couldn't keep their name. Ultimately that changed, but at the time (that was the rule). So when Louie left, you couldn't keep his name. When David left, you couldn't keep the name. When Neil Galatz left, you couldn't keep the name, especially since they were already practicing. But then it changed. 11 And especially when Grant Sawyer died that was a real big issue at the time. So Lionel Sawyer kept the name. Ultimately we got to Gordon Silver and it stayed Gordon Silver. Now everyone agreed not to mess around with it. Again, you were talking about your specialty is bankruptcies? My specialty is bankruptcy. I don't do Chapter 7s, individuals. I don't do 13s; I wouldn't know how to do those. I just specialize in Chapter 11, complex insolvency, creditors' rights. For many years my specialty was doing hotel/casinos all over the country. So when you look at the growth and development and change of Las Vegas over the years, how do you describe it to others who haven't lived here? It's very difficult for people to understand that when I was a teenager, my parents knew where I was. If I went to a movie, there were all these people that knew you and I had a very distinctive laugh?I still do?and people would be able to...And my mother would say, "Oh, you went to such-and-such movie," or, "You went to the Huntridge," or, "You went here or there." It was a really small town. There was a curfew. But I remember I knew so many of the police that a couple of times I got caught after curfew and they just looked at me and said, "Just go home." It was really small. It was intrusive; my mother knew who I was dating; my father knew who I was dating. You had a certain group of friends. Later on when I was practicing, I'd get on a plane and you always knew at least two or three, four or five, six, ten people on the plane. It's different; it's bigger now. More autonomy. I don't think the issues are much different whether you have fifty thousand people or two million, much of the same. There's still arguments about growth; political arguments, the same. It was much more conservative, obviously. I really 12 kind of prefer now. Yes, there's a series of problems. There's discussions. There's all this stuff taking place. But in some ways it's more vibrant. There's more opportunity and more choices. For me it wasn't daunting to build a practice. You just knew people. It was easier because of my family, because I basically grew up here. But, no, I really kind of prefer now. Some people talk about the notoriety of some of the names and the connection with organized crime and all of that; that if you grew up here, you just didn't know. It didn't matter or something. How would you describe that? It really didn't. I mean, you were working with Louie Wiener. One of my favorite moments?when I listen to his recording that we have of him?is when he talks about being Bugsy's?or Benjamin Siegel's attorney. Yes. In fact, when the firm was formed in '67, all of the individual attorneys, Louie, their files came over. Maybe twenty years ago, we were starting to clean out files. The files were all over in file rooms and we started moving them off site and I found the Bugsy Siegel file. There was a file with original documents of all things. So I looked at it, read it, and we shipped it off to storage. It's somewhere in storage. Louie did represent numerous individuals, clients. He was actively engaged in representation; so was David. They all had stories about it and they talked about it. By the time I started practicing, most of those guys were elderly. I had a little dealings with them. But my representations were not them. My representations and where the firm kind of worked was Carl Icahn, who I represented for ten or eleven years?The guys who were now active on the money side, who were a different sort started to take over the casinos and the 13 hotels. Did a lot of hotels go bankrupt? Oh, constantly. It was great. It was good for business, huh? I mean, early on before I started practice they were, but it was under the bankruptcy act; it was a different model. Fees were not great for attorneys. There was a referee, not a bankruptcy judge. Then when the code came in, in '78?October 1, 1978?the world opened up. After that I started doing significant bankruptcies. I did the Silver Bird, the Silver Nugget. I did the Riviera, three times. I did the Aladdin three times, their annuities. Did the Landmark. There were so many. At that time one hotel/casino bankruptcy, which would generally last from two to three years because of the licensing and regulatory environment, kept us fat and happy. Then when the recession hit in 2007-2008, we had four and five at the same time. But it slowed down now. Caesars didn't file here; they filed in Chicago, I think to their regret, but that's their business, and others. But, no, we just conditionally...They would go under because hotel/casinos...Everyone wants to say, "Well, they produce all this income with gaming." Yes, they do, but there is a cost to producing that income. The key to it is, how much does it cost you to get that person in your place, in your shop to play? And the world has changed where the margins started changing because you lost money on your rooms, you lost money on your food, you made money in the casino. Well, tastes started changing, people started changing. Now all of a sudden they wanted better food. They wanted the room. So you had to start producing revenue out of those and profits out of those. That's much more susceptible to a recession than gaming is. So all of a sudden you started seeing properties that were doing fine gaming-wise but now had this 14 significant debt loads to build their facilities and they weren't able to do it. They produced an operating profit, but not enough to cover their debt loads. What's the future of gaming? Or of hotels? Well, as you see, they've made this switch over to where gaming is one aspect, but not the primary aspect. Thirty years ago all we cared about was getting the person in the casino. Everything else was intended to bring the person in to play. Those players are not around anymore. So, the world's changed and the hotel/casinos have changed with it. In addition, the interest rates have been very low and that helps tremendously. In the late eighties, you had fifteen, sixteen percent interest rates. Businesses can't survive on that especially hotel/casinos. So as long as interest rates are low and as long as the market is what it is, they'll be fine even with competition. So you say you also represent entities in other states. I've done work throughout, yes. Bankruptcy, you can practice anywhere. It's a federal system. So you just go in. In some places you have to have a local counsel assist you or sign on with you, but you just go in and petition the court. So I travel all over the place, throughout the country, doing bankruptcies. So, switching back to being Jewish, that's every mother's ?Jewish dream??they always want the attorney and the doctor. Was there a doctor in the family? No. My brother's an attorney, too. Does he practice here? Yes. What's his name? 15 Marc Gordon. What kind of law does he practice? General. Right now he's in-house general counsel for Yellow Cab. You and Yvonne have two children? Two. [Sara and Jeffry.] Tell me about raising children in Las Vegas and in the Jewish community of Las Vegas. We were raised in Congregation Ner Tamid in the Jewish community. They had both sets of grandparents, which is rare, for at least their younger life and through teen. I don't remember it being anything out of the ordinary. We had a house for the first fourteen years of their lives and they went to Twin Lakes School and we lived out near the Muni golf course. They just led what you call a traditional life. Now, we used to go on trips. We would go on cruises because that was a good place for the four of us to go to get away from the work. They had their own thing. As young kids, we did it at least once a year. I remember they would say where they came from, Las Vegas, and people look at them?and they actually had this shtick where they were living in a casino, in a hotel. These crazy people actually believed it. But, no, they were raised in a traditional manner like anyplace else. When they were teenagers, a little more opportunity here. But I don't think it was much different than other places. The same evils, the same benefits, the same good, whatever. It's the notoriety that's projected back at all of us who live here. Yes. I mean, (so much associated) with this place, yes. Yes. I can remember my daughter