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Transcript of interview of Thalia Dondero by Mary Germain, March 13, 1976







On March 13, 1976, Mary Germain interviewed Thalia Dondero (born 1921 in Greeley, Colorado) about her life in Nevada and her experiences as the first female commissioner for the Clark County Commission. Dondero first talks about her upbringing and her eventual move to Southern Nevada. She also discusses her involvement in extracurricular activities, such as being a leader for the Girl Scouts, and how some of those experiences led her to get involved in politics. Dondero also mentions her work with National Geographic and her passion for working with oil paintings and watercolors. The final part of the interview involves some of Dondero’s accounts as a commissioner for Clark County and some of the challenges she has faced in that position.

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Dondero, Thalia Interview, 1976 March 13. OH-00476. [Transcript.] Oral History Research Center, Special Collections & Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.


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UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero i An Interview with Thalia Dondero An Oral History Conducted by Mary Germain Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas Special Collections and Archives Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero ii © Ralph Roske Oral History Project on Early Las Vegas University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 2018 UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero iii The Oral History Research Center (OHRC) was formally established by the Board of Regents of the University of Nevada System in September 2003 as an entity of the UNLV University Libraries’ Special Collections Division. The OHRC conducts oral interviews with individuals who are selected for their ability to provide first-hand observations on a variety of historical topics in Las Vegas and Southern Nevada. The OHRC is also home to legacy oral history interviews conducted prior to its establishment including many conducted by UNLV History Professor Ralph Roske and his students. This legacy interview transcript received minimal editing, such as the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. The interviewee/narrator was not involved in the editing process. UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero iv Abstract On March 13, 1976, Mary Germain interviewed Thalia Dondero (born 1921 in Greeley, Colorado) about her life in Nevada and her experiences as the first female commissioner for the Clark County Commission. Dondero first talks about her upbringing and her eventual move to Southern Nevada. She also discusses her involvement in extracurricular activities, such as being a leader for the Girl Scouts, and how some of those experiences led her to get involved in politics. Dondero also mentions her work with National Geographic and her passion for working with oil paintings and watercolors. The final part of the interview involves some of Dondero’s accounts as a commissioner for Clark County and some of the challenges she has faced in that position. UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 1 I am interviewing Thalia Dondero on March 13th, 1976 at 10:30 a.m. at her home, 808 Bonita, Las Vegas, Nevada. My name is Mary Germain. I live at 2514 Sunrise Avenue, Las Vegas, Nevada. The project is an oral interview of local history, Las Vegas, Nevada. Okay, Mrs. Dondero, where were you born? I was born in Greeley, Colorado in 1921. My family has a unique history; they came across the Plains. My mother’s parents moved from Pennsylvania to central Kansas where they still reside and are wheat farmers in that area. They went across the Plains in covered wagons, and I think that’s really quite unique because I feel like they were, of course, quite a bit older, and my mother was the last of a large family, but it is still unique, the fact that they still own their homesteaded property in central Kansas. Where did you move after that? Well, we grew up in Greeley, Colorado, and we went to school at the University of Greeley, which is a teachers college, and went to a lab school. And I think it probably is very progressive—we had French in third grade, we had typing, we had all sorts of programs that were provided for the youngsters in that university setting. Then, high school, we moved to Bakersfield, California, and I went to Bakersfield High School and Bakersfield Junior College, and then I came over to work out at Henderson with a man that I was working with in Bakersfield for an oil company, and he was assigned to a survey of surplus properties out of Henderson; they were a different plant at that time. What was in Henderson then? It was BMI Industries, and they were doing projects for the war, and it was just the end of that period; in fact, it was at the end of the war. And we were doing surplus property, and Dory sent me, came over here, and he was a very interesting gentleman because he had invented the UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 2 airbrakes, the laid airbrakes, which were then purchased by Westing (Unintelligible)—a gentleman. But anyway, I came over here, and I lived with Mrs. Eunice Revell at that time, who’s been here since 1907 or so, and lived at her home as a boarder because there were very few places in Las Vegas to live. That was on Seventh Street, and it wasn’t even paved at that time, and that’s kind of hard to believe that Seventh Street was not paved, but— It’s out in the country. It was. Then I took a job with Modern Cleaners and working in their cleaning department. And every day I’d walk from her place on North Seventh up to Modern Cleaners, which is still there, and I met, of course, my husband because he had a roommate at the same place, only he was away during the war and came back to visit. That’s how I met him was here, that friend—that friend now lives out in Paradise Valley; in fact, she called me this morning to talk about something. She’s a very colorful figure in Las Vegas—there’s a great number of things you should interview her. But anyway, as I said, I knew a lot of the people, such as Margery (Unintelligible) and your mother-in-law and Dick Ronzone and some of the people who had been around here for a long time. So, it was really interesting during that time because, for recreation, we would go to probably the Last Frontier where you would sit and, for the price of a Coke, listen to Liberace or watch Sammy Davis dance in his jeans. And the Club Bingo was where the now-Sahara Hotel is. You know, these are the kind of things that were all it was, especially out on the Strip, Downtown, (unintelligible) places like the Sal Sagev, some of the old (unintelligible) that are still standing. So, I really enjoyed my early years, and of course then, when I married, we had children, and that came a whole new life of course. What year were you married in? We were married in ’46. UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 3 Was Mr. Dondero teaching then? No, he was not teaching at that time. He was working for the U.S. Office of Education; he took a job with them. And he had been a state deputy superintendent of schools, but he left to work right into the service, so when he came back (unintelligible) up to Stockton where he ended, transferred into that area, and it was unsatisfactory. We didn’t like it, so we worked our way back, and then he went back to Las Vegas High School to teach and was there just a very short time when he was given an assignment of principal of some schools out in Las Vegas, which I’m sure he (unintelligible). But at any rate, we started having our children, and then you know how it is when you have children; you tend to the children first. But I didn’t let that stop me. I think I was involved in the community because, through my friend Margery Phillips, I joined Beta Sigma Phi, which they were very active, and then I joined service (unintelligible). And of course, I think they did a great deal to develop—have women in the community and helping families take their place and do the things that were necessary, that volunteers were needed in a community. And of course, I brought my scrapbook along so we could look through those and some of the things that I was involved in, and of course, I was involved in PTA, was one of the first— (Unintelligible) first got started. Yes, one of the really first big projects. And some of the people that I worked with, like Marion Bunker and Mrs. Lavon Solomon, I felt were great for me, and I used to—and I guess probably everybody’s life touches Vaughan Frazier’s someplace, because she was such a prominent figure in the circles that we were in at that time in the school district. And I used to drive her to the PTA meetings, and I think that was interesting because we didn’t have time to talk and discuss what was going on and some of the history of the area where we were. We could usually go UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 4 (unintelligible) someplace and pick her up and give her a ride. So, I really think those years were great because I did get to discuss a lot of things with her and ways to approach life, I guess, because she had such strong convictions. One of the things she used to tell me, and when I was just beginning in PTA, I was given a state assignment, which was nothing more than a historian, but that was kind of like keeping the history books. And I thought, well, I could manage that. Then I took the presidency at one of the schools, which was the Mayfair School, where our children went to school. And she always told me that I should really be held back because of my husband participating as a principal or in the school administration, that I should continue doing exactly what I wanted to do and to seek the top offices. And she used to give me these lectures, and she especially brought that home when I was elected the city council PTA president. She said, “Now, you just go right ahead and seek that job and do it.” And I went on to become state PTA president and held several other offices such as the treasurer or regional vice president of that. Was it unusual, then, for women to be so active in Las Vegas? Were women kind of in the background (unintelligible)? I don’t think so. We never really ever considered not doing what we wanted to do, as long as we could manage taking care of our families, and we had a great system, I guess, of exchanging babysitters and managing that way, as I said, and getting our little chores done. But I don’t think it was unusual because when I look back at my scrapbook here and see the things that we really did accomplish, I am amazed that we never thought of ERA or the rights movement I guess. That’s why I guess that I have always had that freedom, and everybody in my family, I guess, has had the freedom of choice as to what they want to do with their life. And I think the people should do that (unintelligible). I consider this a real—plus, I guess, for my husband, too, because UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 5 he never really said, “You can’t do that,” and he was always very good about sharing the chores at home and helping to take care of the children if I had to go out and (unintelligible) or even go to a meeting in Tonopah and Reno. So, I really considered that as a real partnership, working things out. Some of the interesting projects that I’ve been involved in during the years that I’ve participated heavily—well, I still do—community activities, was Fantasy Park. And I was the first chairman of Fantasy Park, and I think that we can see that we built— That’s in North Las Vegas? Well, it’s in Las Vegas, it’s right at the edge—it’s on Washington—and we really worked very hard to secure the property to get things started. You can see this big dragon here in this picture; well, we hired this man from Mexico City, a Mr. Domingus, that came in and built some bridges for the desert and gold course. And he seemed to have a knack of putting together cement and developing items out of cement and making them stick and molding them, and for years and years, I don’t know what his secret, but these are still in very good condition at Fantasy Park. But working with him was a great experience because he didn’t speak much English, and I didn’t speak much Mexican so we, every morning, around seven o’clock, I’d find him camped on my doorstep, and he’d want to know what his duties were for the day, or maybe he needed additional supplies. But when we went down to look at the items that he was building—a whale and the dragon and the turtles and some mushrooms and things down there at Fantasy Park—it would look like a Chinese laundry. I mean, we had old bedspreads and pieces of canvas where he built a big protection for whatever he was building so the son would not hit at a certain time of the day. But they’re still standing, and they get repainted periodically. And it’s great; it’s just too bad we don’t have more of them in the city because they were patterned after a place over on the coast, and in order to get their plans, we had to say that they would only be used for parks or children, UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 6 but not commercialized. So, that was one big project that took a long time. I think the moving of the old train, and then later there was a plane that was— Where did that old train come from? It was one of the original UP trains, and they brought it in from Salt Lake, but that was arranged by Florence (Unintelligible). She was the one that made the original arrangements for that, but it was really kind of an exciting thing to see the train going down Main Street instead of not on the railroad tracks on Main Street. And we watched that move down there, and we had a lot of help, of course, a lot of volunteer help. I mean, people, I felt, during that time—of course, we were a closer community because we knew everyone. We weren’t very large, and you could call up on your friends to help out in a pinch, donate this, that, and the other thing. You weren’t in a transient community then, like (unintelligible)? Well, I guess not, no, not as much. You could walk Downtown or go to the grocery store or go to the Ronzone’s or Penney’s and find your friends. And you could see them on the street as you walked down the street; it’s not too often now that I see people that I know on the street (unintelligible). There are certain places that you go that you see your friends (unintelligible). I love it, and I love being here and participating in the growing up of Las Vegas because it has grown. As I said, I think we’ve become much (unintelligible) and during the years that I grew up, I became active as my children grew older and went into Girl Scouting. We always had a Girl Scout or a Boy Scout trip in the household. I was both (unintelligible) mother and Girl Scout leader, and then later on I became executive director for the Girl Scouts and participated there for about ten years. I was their director. Was Girl Scouts new to Las Vegas when you got interested, or had it been here for quite some time? UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 7 No, it had been here for—when I became active, let’s see, it was not too old. I guess it might have been ten years or twelve years or something like that. It was just barely getting started, because Adele Wright and I had Girl Scouts together, and we brought up our youngsters in Girl Scouts, which I think is really a good program, and then later on after I became a director of the Girl Scouts, (unintelligible) different picture because we expanded to over 5,000 Girl Scouts at that time. So, as you can see, as the town grew, so did everything else, and so did all of our other problems along the way. And when I first went in the Girl Scout program, we were busy securing campground lands for our camping on occasions for Girl Scouts, and we went through kind of a busy period of battling the BLM for the property that had originally been paid for by the Girl Scout Council, as they felt they had a claim to it; however, the BLM had never really given the permit, which was unusual, since they had accepted the check. So, I felt that they were morally obligated for this piece of property for the Girl Scouts that we had been using (unintelligible) and running into problems with Vera Krupp, who also claimed she owned the property. Is this near Krupp Ranch? It’s not near Krupp Ranch; it’s out in the same Red Rock area. However, the Krupp Ranch is now what the Spring Mountain State Park is. But as you go out to the Red Rock area on West Charleston, you’ll see a sign that points to Calico Basin. Well, as you go into Calico Basin, the first spring, which is Red Springs, was originally Girl Scout property. And it was being used by the general public who went out to have their picnics and enjoy the spring, and there was a meadow out there, and as I said, that was over a big cliff from where Vera Krupp’s cattle were ranging. So, she did have that to graze her cattle in the area, but never really brought them in UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 8 unless she trucked them in. And no one really objected to the cattle being on the property. In fact, we enjoyed it; there was one (unintelligible) bull that she used to threaten me with. (Laughs) (Laughs) And that was Lonesome George, and he really would probably not ever bother anybody because he would look in my friend’s window from time to time. But anyway, one day we had about a couple (unintelligible) scouts in the Red Rock area with their tents pitched, and she stood up on the ledge and threatened everybody. And she had six-shooters at her hips—(Laughs)—and one of her hands that she had with her, and they were threatening the Girl Scouts and asking them off the property, and we said no, we weren’t going to lose our property. So that was when the BLM really intervened and decided we better do something. So, actually we did—they sent people out for Washington, D.C., and Mr. Udall was then director of the Department of Interior, and we sat glaring at one another trying to decide what we were going to do, and I think at that time, they knew that we were not going to back up on out position. And our Senator was Senator Alan Bible and Senator Howard Cannon, and Congressman Walter Baring—all leant their assistance, and it was primarily through the efforts of Senator Bible that really stuck in there with us, and so did Cannon, to hold on to our property. But we eventually exchanged the property for the site which is now Calico Basin, and a beautiful but probably a more secluded side, and then the state parks eventually took over Red Springs. But it was unique in the fact that we found out that all of the springs in the area were tied up in the Vera Krupp estate, and when she eventually sold it to the Hughes people, I was happy that we had filed a claim for the water in our area and still hold the claim on the water in the Red Springs area, because what I found out in the research was that she really didn’t hold claim to all of the water in the springs. So I had the water UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 9 adjudicated to find out how much was flowing and filed on the rest of the water so that we all had water. But those were the good old days, right? (Laughs) Started in politics early, didn’t realize it? Yes, I guess I didn’t realize that, but it did—learn how to do the research or any kind of action that you wanted to take with government. And I think it really taught me a very good lesson because almost at the same time, there was a league of voters had formed a group to save the Red Rock area for a state park and for a national park. Eventually, the BLM did finally agree to set aside 90 million acres there into a park area, and (unintelligible). And of course, then, after I resigned my position of Girl Scout director, I went on the State Park Mission and worked with state parks a number of years, which was one of the best things I think (unintelligible). What do you think they accomplished (unintelligible) or what changed in that time period? We became a real state park system. I feel like, originally, there were a few parks identified in the state, and we did a complete survey of all the potential park sites in the whole state of Nevada. And little by little, those have been set aside for parks, and I’m very happy now that we did it, because we have such sites as the beautiful Spring Mountain Ranch. We have other sites in the Red Rock area established as a state park. We’ve established parks up north, which Lake Tahoe now has a state park; part of Washoe Lake is a state park—I mean, just on and on, and I think that in years to come, when your children grow up, I’m sure they’ll enjoy those few areas what will be set aside for parks. Well, I’ve noticed that now, when I moved here, the state parks are huge. They are; they’re well taken care of. They’re taken care of so well. UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 10 It does take money, and it does take time, and we worked very hard, everyone on the state park commission worked very hard (unintelligible) nine-million-dollar bond issue, and we just spent the last of that in acquisition. It was for acquisition and park events, and we just spent the last of it on (unintelligible) ranch area, but it was worth the while, it really was. And you still have to look back at those times when everything was developing so rapidly in the community and the fact that we were able to (unintelligible) and now that builder, housing development, now gives two-and-a-half acres or whatever, a portion to his development (unintelligible) or a park area within the development, and I think that those are all pluses for the community. And it was not easy to do all of this, but I think that it was worth the while. Well worth it. And I was known as a tree lady, I guess, because we had picked up some 500 hundred trees from the state nursery—that was one of our projects was to try and get all of those trees here. But, as I said, I think people are more aware now of the (unintelligible). I worked on the application committee, and we tried to keep the community looking good, and as I said, it’s— But it grows so fast, the city, it’s important to pay attention to— And it’s hard to control the planning of the community and making it so people have a continuous plan or continuous growth, I guess that’s what I mean to say, in the community, is not easy, because we have a lot of federal land surrounding us, and also a lot of land over the west, I guess, (unintelligible). It doesn’t allow us to develop in that contiguous manner. What area is that? Well, that’s out in West Charleston. You’ll see there’s a large stretch of land between the Red Rock recreation plans and the city of Las Vegas, and that all belongs to the youth. And it’s never been developed, so it will always be until he decides what he wants to do with it. And it is his UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 11 land, as long as he pays his taxes. But those are some of the kinds of things that I’ve been involved in over the years, as I said, and it brought me up to my present state. I remember hearing about your work on the petroglyphs; what did you do? I haven’t really heard too much about it, I just remembering hearing you saw some people putting paint over them once and got quite upset. I did; it was out at Arrow Canyon. We had gone out to look at the petroglyphs, and there was a university class in from Michigan. And evidently, the area is very unique, and it has been used by lots of university classes for their geology classes and studies. And they had made markings in the area with spray cans, and I thought, of all the groups of students that should know better that they could certain devise other ways to mark the area around it using spray can paint—they had yellow and red and purple and green and all of these marks. And as we drove down the canyon, here they were, I watched them spray them on, and I became very, very upset, so I wrote them a letter and got them (unintelligible) walls on Arrow Canyon, which is very unique in its petroglyphs. And it’s too bad that people seem to deface the petroglyphs because, in another area down in the southern tip of the state, which is now much of Searchlight, they had defaced the glyphs with shooting at the petroglyphs because you could see the pock marks of the bullet where it hit. And then you have people just chip them off and take them home and put them on their patio or whatever, so it’s too bad that we can’t preserve that part of our background or our history to have it go on forward to the next generations, but it has not been done because so many of them have been destroyed. Mary, I’d like to go back to the park fish in just a minute and some of the experiences through that and with the people that I work with, what was probably one of the most colorful figures in the state of Nevada. And I’m sorry that I didn’t have a tape recorder when I sat in his car and listened to some of the stories, but it was Colonel Tom Miller UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 12 who was in the States since 1932, but he was really some kind of a man to listen to because he could recall beautifully—he was a Congressman from the state of Delaware in the 1920s, and he came out here and worked with the Conservation Corps, which was the CCC group, and his experiences through the state were really unique because he would tell me about these stories and times that were back in the thirties that Governor (unintelligible) some of the things that happened when he brought Roosevelt and Eleanor to the state of Nevada that I thought was really unusual. He told me one story that I always got a charge out of because I know the area, and it is in Southern Nevada—it’s up at the Harris Springs Ranch, which is out at the Kyle Canyon Road up to Mt. Charleston, and that road that you see sticking out the side of the mountain. Well, they were building that road, and they had anticipated taking that road on over to the mountain on the other side through that area there. But anyway, it was only built to a certain place up on top of the mountain, and he had taken President Roosevelt and Eleanor to that road. And here they were in their big limousine driving up that road, that dirt road, up to the top, and as they got to the top, they realized the car would not turn around on the road. And Eleanor was trying to direct the men of what to do, and Franklin got very upset and said, “Dammit, Eleanor, shut up.” And the men literally picked the car up and turned it around to come back down the mountain. But he always was full of those kind of stories, and he had some other cute stories that he would tell me about, when they were in the Valley of Fire area, there’s stone cabins that they were building over there. And some of the officials from Washington, D.C. would come out to see what was going on (unintelligible) congressmen, their congregational delegation anyway, and when they came in to the Overton area after reviewing this land and projects all over the southern part of the state, they went in and had rooms at Overton and also meals that were being prepared for them. Well, evidently, it could have been St. Thomas, in one UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 13 of the communities there, but anyway, when they got there, they wanted to have a drink, and of course it was all Mormon community at that time, and they wouldn’t serve them, and they all got made and piled up their car and came to Las Vegas. But those are some of the little stories that I think are cute and full of color for part of the history of Southern Nevada. But Colonel Tom Miller had a very colorful line; I appreciated having the time to talk to him and listen to some of these stories as well as some of the stories that were provided to me by my husband Harvey’s mother—was in the area of the (Unintelligible) Lake and was practically there when the Indians were there, and some of the stories that she would tell. So, another time, you know, it might be good to put some of that down when I have time and remember those little stories that she tells me about trading the Indian baskets for a coat and things like that, but I think they’re very food—some of the stories that she told me about (Unintelligible), which is a mining town. But anyway, back to the land and the love of the land. And I think that I do—I do love Nevada. It’s a state that grows on you, and because I’ve been interested in the entire state and all of the unique places in the state, the National Geographic contacted me, and as you know, I take my camera with me at all times, so I had a lot of very good slides on the state of Nevada. And so, when they contacted me for possible locations for doing your book on great American deserts, we went around the southern part of the state, like from Austin down, but anyway, I showed these slides to (unintelligible), so from that we developed our itinerary as to where to progress. The National Geographic in their work that they put on (unintelligible) so it’s really interesting—did this in a lot of places, a week at a time, to go visit some of the places, like (Unintelligible), central Nevada, and I considered that very, very interesting on central Nevada, and when I told your mother-in-law about central Nevada, she expanded on some of those places that I had visited, UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 14 which was a very unique place. One day, we got lost in the middle of the desert, and we had left Alamo to go to a location that the team of—I don’t know— Anthropologists? Anthropologists were working so that we could so some pictures for the book and a story for the book on there. And they had given us instructions on how to get (unintelligible). Well, we had, somehow, when we were measuring the mileage, we had to do this because one tank of gas wouldn’t get us in and out—we had an extra five gallons of gas so we had to be sure that we would be able to get out of the central part, because there were no gas stations where we were going. So, we made one wrong turn out at Warm Springs, which is right in the center of (unintelligible) and went up to this old ranch house, which was just an enormously big thing for the middle of the desert. And when I was explaining this unique place to your mother-in-law, she told me the whole history in that, and I think you’ll want to get her to put that down, because (unintelligible). I think I will. And then we went on up to the site after we got lost a couple of times and even went to see the back side of the Test Site—in itself was unique as to where the number one site was, and it was marked, and all the original things were there and all of that stuff, so we took several pictures of that, too. But anyway, then we went out (unintelligible) and then on out through a snowstorm through Ely and then down to Pioche. Those pictures are all recorded in the book, and it was nice because they did give an acknowledgement in the back of the book that I was with them, and in fact, one of the pictures that we had taken up in Pioche at the Silver Peak Mine—at least it got consideration, one of the pictures I had taken. When you see the number of pictures in National Geographic takes on one of their trips, which is probably 400 in a day, or even in half a day, it’s UNLV University Libraries Thalia Dondero 15 amazing that they must get down to (unintelligible). But anyway, they were nice enough to keep me along on one of these trips, and it was really nice (unintelligible) the Green River. In fact, we (unintelligible) for National Geographic, and over into the Zion wilderness. But I consider those really as a great part in all of my life, because we really did get to go out, just me out in the desert without any care in the world, really, because we were committed in the wilderness to be there when we were there, and (unintelligible) stories for the Las Vegas Sun. I did a series of articles that were (unintelligible) and (unintelligible) stories. I realized then I was really probably never cut out to be a writer because it was such a struggle to get the words out and on paper and get them into some kind of form that they could use to match a story. And they did, they used it verbatim in (unintelligible), and I considered that a real plus in my education. But those are kinds of things, and then of course I went into etching sand and also watercolors that I’ve enjoyed (unintelligible) public life, I was just, I was getting into developing new techniques for etching some of the prints, and I (unintelligible) press so I could (unintelligible). I enjoyed the watercolors, too. Have you always been interested in art? Yes, I have. I did study and take about four years of jewelry making and working in (unintelligible). Also, oil paintings, and worked with mostly oils and never really worked with (unintelligible). So, that was just kind of a challenge for me to work on (unintelligible). Your (unintelligible) they do keep it up. I really enjoy them. It’s such a challenge to do oils, and I have seen that from my first print and last prints, (unintelligible). I took some instructions from classes from (unintelligible) and I considered her probably one of the top instructors in etchings, and had the privilege to take her classes (unintelligible). Of course, I’ve had lots of ideas because I think (unintelligible) in the UNLV University Libraries