Interview with William John Mayer, July 20, 2004

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with William Mayer July 20, 2004 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Shannon Applegate © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with William Mayer July 20, 2004 Conducted by Shannon Applegate Table of Contents Introduction: birth, education, military service, early work as electrical engineer, does consulting work and teaches at community college, accepts position with Holmes and Narver 1 Outlines work with Holmes and Narver at the Nevada Test Site ( NTS) as resident engineer supporting Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory ( LLNL) relationship of Atomic Energy Commission ( AEC) and the labs, work on Scissors, move from senior design engineer to project engineering ( management), and transfer to position as Los Alamos National Laboratory ( LANL) design engineer 2 Describes job as LANL design engineer at NTS 5 Talks about rivalry between LLNL and LANL 9 Work on the Joint Verification Experiment ( JVE) and relationship with Soviets 10 Work with British on Icecap 11 Discusses electrical and power problems with shots at the NTS 13 Recalls work as liaison between LANL and contractors 16 Talks about military service with U. S. Army as radio repairman and details later work with U. S. Government as electrical engineer in USAID program in Sudan 18 Education: master’s degree from Columbia Pacific University, later certification training as electrician 22 Recounts stories of private consulting work 24 Talks about commuting to the NTS from Las Vegas 25 Discusses relationships among workers, labor issues, and protesters at the NTS 27 Recalls political environment and its effect on budget issues and work at the NTS 28 Opinions on nuclear energy, weapons testing, and waste storage at Yucca Mountain 30 Security and clearances at the NTS 32 Details participation in Ledoux 33 Talks about concerns for radiation and safety at the NTS 34 Discusses accidents on Midas Myth/ Milagro, Baneberry, and Peninsula 35 Conclusion: final thoughts on atmospheric tests, and memorabilia of the JVE 38 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with William Mayer July 20, 2004 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Shannon Applegate Shannon Applegate: And now we’re recording. William Mayer: I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Went to school there. Got out of high school. Enlisted in the Army. Came back and then, on the GI Bill, I went to college. I went to Marquette University, and in 1960 I got a degree, a Bachelor of Electrical Engineering. The first job I had was with a small architectural firm, and would do the electrical portion of whatever: banks, churches, schools, that sort of thing. But being a small firm, it just didn’t seem like I was being able to get ahead very much. So I found another job with Dow Chemical and spent about a year working there and learning about chemical plants. Then I moved to Cleveland for a couple years and worked for a very large architectural firm. They had about eighty people. And when I was with them, there was an opportunity to go to Sudan. We had a contract with the government to provide architect and engineering help. So I got to spend two months in Khartoum. It was very interesting. I really enjoyed it. Then I came back and wanted to go into private practice, so I wrote the exam in Ohio, in Michigan, and in Wisconsin. Passed all three, and went back to central Wisconsin and opened up a consulting firm. But there wasn’t very much business. At the time, the local junior college was looking for somebody to set up an instrumentation program to train instrument mechanics for the paper mills in that area. So I taught during the day and did my consulting at night. And we set up an instrumentation program, and I wrote some of the manuals and designed some of the equipment. But I wasn’t really happy with teaching. If somebody wanted to learn something, that was fine. But if they were in there, like some of them were, merely to avoid the draft and going UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 to Vietnam, you can’t teach them. They don’t want to be taught. They just want to avoid the draft. So anyway, I saw an ad in an engineering magazine, from Holmes and Narver, and sent in my résumé and they invited me out in May of ’ 69 to interview. I interviewed there and they made me a job offer, so July 1, [ 1969] I went to work at the test site. And the test site was different to me because there was so much politics involved. I had never been in that sort of a situation. And with Holmes and Narver, the fellow that was my boss, who was head of the electrical section, I found out, didn’t have a degree in electrical engineering. He had a degree in mechanical engineering. He had gone to work for Bell Labs and found out that only the electricals were getting promoted, so he just decided to be an electrical. Without the training. But he was a great guy. We still talk. But anyway, he got a chance to move over to EGG [ EG& G, Edgerton, Germeshausen, and Grier] and work for them. And the problem was— not having been trained in some of the electrical things— he had a hard time on his first job because he really didn’t know how to do the calculations to come up with what he needed. So the control room at the CP [ control point], the calculations for that, were done on my kitchen table. I showed him how to do it. [ 00: 05: 00] And the way Holmes and Narver was set up back then, is they had a group in Mercury that primarily supported the AEC [ Atomic Energy Commission] people and their little projects. Then they had a group that supported the Los Alamos people, they had a group that supported the Livermore people, and they had a group that supported DNA [ Defense Nuclear Agency] or DoD [ Department of Defense] up in the tunnels. I stayed with the group in Mercury that supported AEC people and did their projects. And then budget restraints came along and there wasn’t enough money to keep me full time there, so I transferred out and I went to work in UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 the group that supported Livermore in Area 2. And it’s sort of a strange relationship. The AEC at that time had two people in Mercury, two electrical engineers. One was power, one was cable communications. They had counterparts downtown that had the same thing, and they were supported by the downtown H& N office. But the power engineer set me up to do a project— they were doing an event, I believe it was called Scissors— but moving equipment around, you’d have to take it down to get it underneath the power lines. So what I basically did is I designed a little loop that went underneath the road, and we used high voltage cable, and that way you didn’t have to take cranes down and all that sort of thing. And that seemed like a very straightforward job, to me. And what I later found out was the high voltage cable actually had been installed in Livermore’s area, and then they moved the camp so it sat empty. It was just two poles along the road, with these cables hanging there, not being used. Well, the laboratory feels that that was their property because they requested it, they justified it, and it was out of their budget. AEC feels that because they paid for everything, that it was theirs, and they could use it where they wanted. So during the summer, when the electrical engineer from Livermore went on vacation, the AEC man got REECo [ Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Company] to take that cable out of there and put it over into this Los Alamos event that was going on. So that was the sort of things that went on. Did you get caught in the middle? No, and amazingly, later I went to work for supporting Livermore, and I was with the guy that was on vacation when they stole his cable. But he got even. He did? How’d he get even? They needed a building up in Area 12, Livermore needed a building, that they would use, sort of the stage when they did a reentry into the tunnel. And they didn’t have one. Well, traditionally, UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 Los Alamos painted their buildings light green. Livermore painted their buildings a dark blue. So one weekend, the Livermore people got REECo to bring one of these doublewide trailers, and they picked up this Los Alamos building, which was like twelve by forty, hauled it up to Area 12, repainted it dark blue, and put a security fence around it. So they stole their building. Oh, that’s funny! Oh, yeah. But anyway, I worked as a senior engineer, doing design, and then, in order to get ahead, to get more money, I went into project engineering. Well, that kind of dilutes it because you’re trained and you’re good in one area. Now, you’re going into areas where you [ 00: 10: 00] got to do surveying and landfill and whole lot of other things. And then beyond that, the only way to get ahead would be to go into management, which I did. And now I can look back and say it’s a mistake, because I went into it primarily to get more money, and I don’t appreciate management. I don’t like having the kind of people problems. Give me a good engineering problem. And anyway, we had our shortcomings, and some of the— not my boss, but his boss, really felt I shouldn’t have been in management, and I finally got out. And I went to support the Los Alamos people. Well, the Los Alamos people hadn’t had an engineer out there for some time. The one they had committed suicide, and then it was just sort of nobody was there. Whatever they needed, they got back from Los Alamos. And the fellow back in Los Alamos and I worked quite well, and he liked my work, so he finally talked the group leader into recreating the position out at the test site, and so I interviewed for that, and it was great. I now got rid of all the people problems and back to doing engineering. And it’s the best job I had in my forty years of engineering. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 So what would you do, as the Los Alamos engineer? You were the Los Alamos engineer on site at the test site, right? Right. My job is being responsible for the power systems; that they have adequate power for all the trailers and everything they need. Also for the grounding, which tends to be rather important. We worked out a design so that we had what we call a single point ground. Everything referenced to that one point. And really, you got to do that if you’re going to do a lot of instrumentation and look at a lot of things. But then I also was responsible for the lightning protection system, and we worked with the weather people down here [ Las Vegas]. We actually developed a system whereby we could sit and look on our monitor and watch the lightning storms move across the test site. There was a couple occasions where we would be emplacing a device, going down hole, as we called it, and these storms would come up, and we’d watch it on the monitor. When they got so close, we’d just say, OK, shut it down, and we’d back off about fifteen hundred feet and wait, and then we’d go and check the monitor and make sure where the storm was, and then resume with our operations. And at the beginning when I came in, the high voltage that we ran around to get to these event sites was 4,160. And with power, the further you got to transmit it or get it, the higher you should be with your voltage. So what we found out was at the 4,160, if we had a very long line and the event out at the end, what would happen is the drillers would come in halfway in between and get onto the line. Well, every time they’d stick a drill, there would be such a surge that the event would lose power. And the problem there is when they set up these trailers to do their diagnostics, they have to calibrate each of those scopes, and if you lose power, you lose calibration, which means you spend a lot of overtime with EG& G technicians, recalibrating these things. So we began a program whereby, I redesigned the Los Alamos power system, and we UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 [ 00: 15: 00] went to 12,500 volts, and only at the test site will you find power lines laid on the ground. That’s against every code in the world, but we did it, and we have some 12,500- volt lines. As much as I could, I wanted them buried, but there were times and places that we couldn’t. Did you have any problems due to that, that it wasn’t—? No. The worst problem I can remember— and it was before I went to work for Los Alamos— they needed a power line and they ordered the cable and laid it out, and then they put up a little wire fence on either side of the cable. Well, during the hot, dry summer, the tumbleweeds would get in between these two fences and get trapped. And they would send laborers in with pitchforks to go and pitch it out. When they ordered the cable, they didn’t tell the manufacturer that it was going to lie in the sun. And one of the types of insulation was called crosslinked polyethylene. If you expose that to sun without putting inhibitors in that cable, it will revert back to its previous form, which is methane gas. So you had laborers with pitchforks, and this cable blew up. It was swelling like a snake had swallowed a rabbit. And it’s full of methane gas and you’ve got a sharp pitchfork? So they punctured it and it blew up? Luckily, they didn’t get it, but— So what was wrapped around the cable? Is it like a plastic? Because I would think that would crack or—? No, each conductor has an insulation, and then there’s an overall jacket on it. And then that jacket is more weather proof to heat and all that. Yeah. Where did the test site get their power from? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 I don’t know exactly where it is today. But there used to be a substation up on Durango and Charleston called the Westside Substation, and Nevada Power ran a line from there out to Mercury; another line going through the rural electric group, the power line goes around and goes up to Pahrump. And Pahrump has a line running over into the old NRDS [ Nuclear Rocket and Development Station] site. So you got Nevada Power and REA [ Rural Electrical Association] power coming into the test site. And the test site main loop, it is a loop, but you got two people coming in. Primarily, the power comes from Nevada Power. And Valley Electric is sort of a backup segment. So in case something happened with Nevada Power, it’s like having a battery on or something. And originally Nevada Power ran a line out there at 35,000 volts, and that was just too far. Eighty miles is too far for that kind of load. So it was rebuilt to 138,000. And one of the things when I was supporting Livermore is when they would move a drill rig— now, I don’t know if you ever saw a picture of what that looked like. I’ve seen a big bit of how big those drills are. But they usually would put three Caterpillar tractors in front, pulling, and three behind, pushing, and they would just skid these rigs to the position where they were going to drill the new hole. Well, if you had this power line in your way, you had to painfully and expensively lower that rig and dismantle it, get it underneath, and put it back up. So one of the other things that I did, like I did for that one event, I designed— it was supposedly going to be an underground [ 00: 20: 00] crossing, but it didn’t turn out that way. But it was a set of structures such that we could turn the power off, detach the wires, skid the rig through, put the wires back up. A lot less effort. I mean one five- man lineman crew, as opposed to a whole bunch of people trying to tip over— I think UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 drill rigs are about 150 feet tall. But anyway, there are two of those crossings out there that I put in. That was a fun thing. How long did it take you to come up with that design? The design wasn’t that bad. Getting people to agree to it my original design, I was using a cable and going underground. REECo very much opposed that. Why? Well, for one thing, the REECo engineer thought that you’d have to have a vacuum pump for that. He didn’t understand that they had come out with new cable that is solid. You don’t need the vacuum system. Now, as it turned out, ALCOA, who came out with the cable, it only lasted about two years, and then it went bad. So it was a good thing we didn’t do it. The cable went bad? Yes. They had numerous failures across the country with it. When you get to that high a voltage, things become very tricky, and little minor flaws start to get at you. And I remember going up in a bucket rig because there was a problem, and somebody had put a nail in a power pole, and that nail was just causing an arc to form. Just a nail in the actual wood pole itself would have an effect on the—? Yeah. I didn’t know that. And so we found the problem, got rid of the nail, and the problem went away. But it was a lot of different little projects that were very interesting, very different. When you came up with the design for this new way for these drill rigs to cross over power lines, you said— the other engineers— you had to sell that idea. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 Yes, you could— DOE [ Department of Energy] had asked that this be done, but then we would get together with everybody— the laboratories, DNA, and REECo— and say what we’re doing and discuss it. And there was what we called a power management group that had representatives from each group, and I was the Los Alamos representative. And we would get together and discuss problems, which way we were going, things like that. You’d said that you supported Livermore and then you ended up working for Los Alamos. Was there a big difference in working for the two different labs? There was a rivalry between those two, and if one does something one way, the other one must do it a different way. And once or twice, I’d slip, when I first started, and say, Well, the way we did it over in Livermore country… and they’d jump down my throat, You can’t do that. But the interesting thing is when I was the resident engineer supporting Livermore, I hired a young fellow who came up from the Kennedy Space Center. And his name is also Bill Pittman. He was my electrical engineer, and then I made him my design chief. And then when I got crossways with management, I was going to go to work for Livermore. Well, my boss’s boss found out about it and went over and told the Livermore people that I was no good, unreliable. By the time he got through assassinating my character, there was no chance. So I encouraged Bill, my engineer, to take the job. And he did. So even though the labs were opposite and all that kind of rivalry, Bill and I were friends, co- workers, and we shared a lot of things. Well, that’s nice. So you had a comrade on the other side. [ 00: 25: 00] Yes, and we did things quite differently as far as— on one shot the ground motion knocked some things loose, including a power conductor, and it went into the frame of the trailer. Of course, the way they shock- mount these trailers to survive, you end up either putting Plexiglas down, which is an insulator and what Los Alamos uses; you go to Livermore and they UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 use a Styrofoam, which is an insulator. But anyway, on the reentry, it was a telephone trailer, after the shot, the guy went up to inspect the inside of it, and when he grabbed the door handle, he grabbed 120 volts, and it knocked him down. Was he OK? Yes, he was OK. But we looked at designing equipment such that we could see if anything had been electrified that was isolated like that. And Los Alamos had H& N design a set of relays such that on reentry, I would go in with the REECo electrical engineer, and one by one, we would identify each of the trailers and structures and make sure it was OK and restore it to normal. During the actual shot, we would kind of remove this protection so that that trailer floated, which was a requirement for instrumentation. But we could do this from the substations that were in the trailer park. Over in Livermore, they had a totally different way of checking the grounding, and they sort of physically ran a harpoon into the ground and then checked against the frame. And it was, to me, a slower, more drawn out method, but both of them accomplished the same thing. It’s just that, we have got to do it differently. So how often would you encounter the Livermore side when you were working at Los Alamos? I mean were you just in two different playing fields? Yes, we were pretty much— we did have a couple of joint shots. Kearsarge was one of them. And there was a Livermore trailer park and a Los Alamos trailer park, and then off to the side was the Russian trailer park. Was this during the JVE [ Joint Verification Experiment]? Yes. Bill and I did the reentry; we did mine first and then we did his. What’s the reentry? Is that going back into the trailer? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 Yes, after the shot. They’ll go back in and get whatever they have record[ ed]. In the old days, it used to be pictures that they would mount on a scope, and I think it’s probably now CDs [ compact discs] or some kind of removable media. Did you work with the Russian counterpart at all? Not too much. When they came over, I gave them a couple of lectures on how we grounded and what we did and what our theories were on that. And we had a couple sessions, and make sure that they didn’t interfere with us and we didn’t interfere with them. What were your impressions of them? The workers were OK, but the bosses seemed to be more politically orientated than the actual scientists that were there. If I’d be giving a lecture and answering questions, and we had just the scientists in there, there was one atmosphere. But if the boss walked in, it became very cold, stick strictly to business sort of thing. When you would talk to them, did they know as much about electrical engineering as you? Yes. So it wasn’t like they were real far behind in technology or anything? No. How was the language barrier, or was there a language barrier? They had interpreters for some of them, but a lot of them could understand English, so it wasn’t [ 00: 30: 00] that bad. And then the other thing I enjoyed was working with the British. Did you work on, was it Icehouse? Icecap? Icecap. Yeah. You worked on that? Yes. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 So they were fun to work with? Oh, yeah. And their first shot was with Livermore, when I was supporting Livermore. And then the second shot— and then they started alternating. They’d have one with us [ Los Alamos] and one with them. There were some of them that I knew for at least ten years. So the same people would stick— Yes, same people would come back, and same trailers, and the interesting thing is somehow they ended up with EG& G designing the trailers along the Livermore line. So it was a little different but with the relationship I had with my counterpart there, there wasn’t much to worry about. They were neat people. So what made them particularly fun? Just their sense of humor. And there was one poor fellow, I think four times on four different shots, he tried to get data, and he never did. And Icecap was going to be, I think, his last chance, and then President [ Geroge H. W.] Bush shut it down. He would have to be thinking he was cursed after a while. What would they do? Would they come to you and say, We want to record this type of data, and then would you have to make sure that the electrical work could get that, or how would that work? I never really got into what data they were recording, but their power system in England is not the same as the United States. They tend to use fifty cycle current and we use sixty cycle. And when I say that, you know I’m an old man because in 1958, we stopped saying “ cycles” and we started calling it “ hertz.” But no, we found ways to be very compatible and it worked out well. So you would just make sure everything was hooked up to this trailer and that it was functioning and that it wouldn’t lose power. Right. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 Did you ever have an experience where before a shot you lost power? Yes. What was that like? I’m trying to remember why— we had one where we had an earthquake about three minutes before shot time, but it wasn’t that— but something went wrong and we had to go back out there to reestablish the power. And, of course, the EGG technicians, if they can have a chance to redo it, recalibrate— everybody wanted to go back to their trailer and check it. The test director said, If you’re going to do that, then we’ll just cancel the shot. And so we and one small group went back in there and reestablished— and I just can’t remember the details. Because we would have a central power station at the back of the trailer part, where we would come in with our 12,500 volts, and then go out to little distribution units at 480 volts. On that big substation, I had a re- closing mechanism such that if that thing tripped, I could then send a signal from the control room to reestablish it. Automatically or—? Yeah, we sent out a signal and it would re- close. If it would trip again, then we’d know we definitely had a fault. You’d mentioned something about lightning. Did you ever have problems with wind out at the test site? With it getting real windy and—? [ 00: 35: 00] Not really. The test site power system was relatively stable to winds. The problem was the feed, from Mercury to Las Vegas, of Nevada Power. And they used a different type of structure, and there were four points coming back, that when you had a strong wind, you probably would lose the power. One of the things I did early on at DOE’s request— in a power system you put these protective devices and you want them to open up if there’s a fault. But you UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 want the device closest to the fault to open, not one way down the other end. Well, one of the ways they achieved that is what’s called a distance relay, and by how the distance relay is set, it will look and say, oh, that’s in my zone. I open up. Or it’ll say, that’s not in my zone, let the other guy open up. And I did this study which included all the major substations at the site and where their settings were. Also I worked with Nevada Power, and I went back to Texas, to the engineering outfit that designed the line that goes up to Pahrump and over. And came up with essentially a coordination scheme that says, OK, everything’s fine, it’ll work. Except everything wasn’t fine. In going through, before I actually got to the test site, they had hired General Electric [ GE] and a man by the name of Fisher to do a coordination study. He did the study and presented this paper, along with some recommendations, which pretty much, when I read it, it looked like, get rid of the Westinghouse relays and put in all General Electric, which is impossible because REA uses Westinghouse and we use General Electric. But anyway, when you figure out how to set these distance relays, you have to take into account how that structure— and the geometric relationship of the conductors. Well, at the test site, you have two poles with a cross member and these three conductors hanging down, and you go through and calculate the geometric mean factor, and that determines your settings. Well, in the report that Fisher did, he used the same settings on the test site as he did on the line going back to Las Vegas. Well, Nevada Power uses a single pole and they got what they call a lazy V, and they hang the conductors this way [ demonstrating]. So the calculation for that setting would always trip the Westside Station and it would never trip Mercury. And Mercury was GE? Yes. And that confused me because I presented this to AEC and I showed them what the problem was, and they were happy, but they didn’t do anything. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 They didn’t fix it? Not as far as I knew. It never got changed. So how would they work around that if it would—? I don’t know. AEC [ Atomic Energy Commission] was worried that they might get sued for causing somebody an outage here, so they wanted to make sure that they weren’t at fault. And as it is, if the power dumped, it was always going to be Nevada Power Company’s fault. I didn’t even think about that. Was there ever tension between if the test site used up too much energy, that it could cause an outage? I don’t think so, really. Not the way it’s structured, with the grid and everything? No. And having the second feed in there. The majority of energy was used during a test, right? No. No? When would— oh, you said when drilling was going on. Was that—? Yes. And see, drilling used to be self- sufficient. They’d have diesel generators. Then we had the oil shortage in the seventies and they said, Cut back on the diesel and use the [ 00: 40: 00] electric power that’s there. So then, when they did that, then we had the problem with the trailers losing power. Would there be drilling going on, on some parts of the test site, while a test was going on? Not while the test is going on. When you have test, basically you shut everything down except that one site. So only the one site is going, so you’re not using maximum power. When you don’t have a test, they’ll be ventilating the tunnels with these— I don’t know if you’ve seen these 400 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 horsepower motors that they ventilate all the tunnels with. You’ll have drilling going on. You have all kinds of activity. And that’s when you use the most power. And that’s when you have to really watch where people are getting power, because you could cause an outage, right? But outages were very rare. The chief power dispatcher and I were very good friends and went to the same church and things like that. He was good about making certain that things were very adequate and worked out. When you worked for Los Alamos, were you the liaison between the test site and the lab? So would you have to work with Reynolds Electric people and—? And H& N people. Was that difficult at all? No. No? So I’m just trying to get a better understanding of what your job actually was. Would the lab say we need you to do this project, or they would come up with a problem and you’d have to solve it? I would look and see what we needed to do, and do it. And that’s what made the job so wonderful. And, you know, I was