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Antioco Carrillo interview, 2019: transcript






Interviewed by Monserrath Hernández, Rodrigo Vazquez, and Laurents Benitez-Bañuelos. A native of Jalisco, Mexico, moved to Las Vegas when he was about 20-year old in 1987. Attended CSN and UNLV. His history with Las Vegas is embedded in the 1980s Las Vegas gay scene and education for AIDS. He is and activist and the Executive Director of Aid for AIDS of Nevada. He and Theodore Small are the first same-sex marriage in Nevada.

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Carrillo, Antioco Interview, 2019. OH-03689. [Transcript]. Oral History Research Center, Special Collections and Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.


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i AN INTERVIEW WITH ANTIOCO CARRILLO An Oral History Conducted by Rodrigo Vazquez and Monserrath Hernández Latinx Voices of Southern Nevada Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ©Latinx Voices of Southern Nevada University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2018 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV – University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcribers: Kristin Hicks, Maribel Estrada Calderón, Nathalie Martinez, Rodrigo Vazquez, Elsa Lopez Editors and Project Assistants: Laurents Bañuelos-Benitez, Maribel Estrada Calderón, Monserrath Hernández, Elsa Lopez, Nathalie Martinez, Marcela Rodriquez-Campo, Rodrigo Vazquez iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a National Endowment for Humanities (NEH) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Latinx Voices of Southern Nevada. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas iv PREFACE For Antioco Carrillo, his recent look at his family genealogy has sharpened his perspective of history and his roots. In 1967, Antioco was born in Colotlán, Jalsico, a small town tucked into the mountains of central Mexico. He is the sixth of seven children born to Elena Miramontes and Jose Maria Carrillo. Twenty years later, in 1987, his parents decided it was time to join other family members in Las Vegas. Though would have to interrupt his medical school studies, the affable Antioco went with the flow of the family. Las Vegas will be forever grateful that he did. As so many have done, Antioco transitioned to living in Las Vegas by finding a job on the Strip. For him it included working banquets at the Tropicana while taking classes at College of Southern Nevada. Describing his English skills are very weak upon arrival, he was determined to be speak fluently. Between his job and his school studies, he mastered the art of communicating in English within a very brief time. By 1993, Antioco was a confident gay man and bilingual communicator. He had completed his studies for a master’s in social work from UNLV and was asked by AFAN (Aid for AIDS of Nevada) to help with promoting health education and safe sex to the local gay community. Little v information existed when AFAN opened in 1984; it was a nonprofit run by volunteers who were just learning with the rest of the world about HIV/AIDS. By the time Antioco joined the team, the stigma was raging. Antioco entered the gay bars, set up an information table, and began talking—especially to young Latinos, he says: “…It was a very dark period not only with HIV with the gay community, but especially with the minority community. I think it was the most challenging time I’ve ever had….” The experiences also ignited Antioco’s professional career. With his bilingual and multi-cultural approach, the charismatic Antioco made a difference in many lives. His relationship with AFAN, where the goal is to promote a safer navigation of the gay lifestyle, was solidified. From community outreach in gay bars in the early 1990s to becoming AFAN’s Executive Director from January 2012 through now, Antioco continues to be a dedicated community leader. Also, Antioco and his husband Theodore Small were among the sixteen participants in the overturn of the 2002 constitutional amendment that banned same-sex couples from marrying in Nevada. On October 9, 2014, the media surrounded Antioco and Theo after being issued their marriage license—the first in Clark County. A month later, and 18 years after their first date, they married. The ceremony was held in the courtyard of the Episcopal church where they had been chaperones for a high school gay prom. Antioco still speaks excitedly about the groundbreaking event and his memories of their wedding planning. His husband is Vice-President of the Clark County Education Association. vi TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Antioco Carrillo June 27 and July 11, 2019 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Rodrigo Vazquez and Monserrath Hernández Preface…………………………………………………………………………………………..iv SESSION 1 Describes being born and raised in Jalisco, Mexico in the small mountain town of Colotlán; attended college in Zacatecas, until his family decided to reunite in Las Vegas in 1987. Attended Escuela Niños Heroes, an all-boys school; family of seven children. Describes Colotlán’s historical background, its religious foundation, and observations Mexicans make on one’s appearance and the impact of colonization on indigenous people; his mother’s approach to integrating culture and religion, and her more scientific and generous philosophy of life………………………………………………………………………………………….….1 – 7 Talks about regional dances in Mexico; school discipline allowed hitting by teachers; recalls sixth grade science and a human anatomy unit; differences between private and public schools as he grew up. Science lessons from his school memories: tobacco and nicotine; reproduction system and recalling this as an adult counseling those suffering from AIDS in the early 2000s; story of being in Mexico with husband Theo; youthful anecdote of a lesson from biology class……8 – 16 Talks about the braceros program; growing family size; no high school in his hometown; decision to move family to the States when he was four, to Las Vegas where his father was working on the railroad. Memories of crossing the border legally; of details of Las Vegas life as a small child; decision to return to Mexico; school difficulties for his older brother; goal to be a veterinarian and attended University of Zacatecas in mid-1980s. All family members finally relocate back to Las Vegas by 1987. Jobs of his siblings, most in hotel and hospitality service industry………17 – 22 Provides more details about when they lived in Moapa and father worked on railroad; store with an escalator; how different it was here by 1987. Takes ESL classes at CSN; excels and is part of the English Honor Society by 1993. Also, worked at Tropicana Hotel’s kitchen and banquets; why he did not return to veterinary studies. In 1993 is offered a bilingual position to speak with potential HIV sufferers; AIDS in Las Vegas, news coverage of the “gay cancer”……..…..23 – 27 Shares his personal story of knowing he is gay; secret relationship with a teacher and learning a bit about an infection going around; remained closeted and pondering his two lifestyle options and vii happiness. Remembers coming out to his family, their struggle and acceptance; anecdote about his mother, a psychic, and acceptance…………………………………………………………..28 – 32 More about HIV in Las Vegas, 1983-1993; his clinical psychology training; not finishing his dissertation but continuing with HIV/AIDS education to become a great therapist, not enough medical options the focus was on dying; challenges himself and does a three-year Gestalt training. Daunting times, attraction of United States to HIV positive immigrants, better health care options, he helped demystify HIV for this population and deal with mortality of his clients. 1996 new medications became available; societal adjustments occurred. Talks about the Gay and Lesbian Center from 1995 – 2002, working there on a grant.…………………………………..……33 – 39 Describes going to the gay bars [e.g. Piranha, Gypsy’s] for Health District outreach, AFAN Community Counseling; assessment questions, foreign languages, drag shows, condom give-aways, high level of positives within Hispanic population; personal depression due to the job; getting a promotion, revamping the notification system, “green card” term…………….….40 – 46 SESSION 2 Describes AIDS of Nevada (AFAN) and his position as executive director.of AFAN; some history of caring for those with HIV locally; testing expansion of past decade, increased access to medications. CareWare system. Health Department. Disproportionate infection of Hispanics and African Americans………………………………………………………………………….47 – 54 Expands on how to educate the Latinx population about HIV/AIDS; influence of pop culture on Aids epidemic; less mortality; Gilead pharmaceuticals; annual Black and White Party and AIDS Walk fundraisers………………………………………………..…………………………..55 – 63 Talks about being the first Clark County same sex marriage license; story of becoming part of the law suit challenging definitions of marriage in Nevada; talks about his class on social systems, advocating for changes, recalls bullying, name-calling experience ten years prior at UNLV; importance of getting married; LGBT activism……………………………………………64 – 73 Explains his husband Theo’s education program GLSEN [Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network], Gay-Straight Alliance; inequities; how his family learned of his news making episode. His and Theo’s November 2014 wedding in the Christ Episcopal Church courtyard……..73 – 81 Adds more on AFAN and HIV work with the gay community, located in a building on Sahara, lack of funds for rent; Dennis McBride on board; retreat in Boulder City at Wellspring to consider options for keeping the Center open; asking for donations in front of bar; obtaining first grant. Adding a rainbow flag, which was later donated to UNLV’s Special Collections; Bob Bailey pestering him to come back; Bailey being his only guest with the teens; his staying for two additional years, not liking the location next to The Green Door………………………….82 – 86 viii Recalls an episode when he met up with a friend for a drink at Good Times and observed underaged drinkers from the youth group; a later story of meeting with older gay men and how to be role models for youth. Talks about Pride Month; the struggle to achieve equality; comparison to civil rights struggle of Blacks; concern that rights given will be taken away in some manner; living in the context of white, straight society………………………………………………………...87 – 92 Talks about challenges of being Hispanic; skin color; gays getting married; women’s rights; importance of protecting achievements. Episode when someone could not bring themselves to use the words “your husband” when referring to Theo. Desire to claim his “native” lineage based on his Mexican DNA and ancestry……………………………………………………………...92 – 99 ix 1 SESSION 1 Today is June 27, 2019. We are in the Reading Room at Special Collections inside Lied Library here at UNLV. My name is Rodrigo Vazquez. Today with me is… Monserrath Hernandez. Barbara Tabach. Laurents Banuelos-Benitez. And Antico Carrillo. Antico, could you please spell your first and last name for me, please? A-N-T-I-C-O, C-A-R-R-I-L-L-O. Perfect. We always like to begin by asking our narrators to tell us a little about their childhood. Could you describe your childhood? Where were you born? When did you get to Las Vegas? I was born and raised in a small town in the State of Jalisco, Mexico; its name is Colotlán, Jalisco. That town actually is famous for the embroidery that is made on leather. If you look at all this Mexican portrayal of the rancheros and all the cheros and all the mariachis, all their belts are hand stitched there. I was born and raised in that town. It’s up in the mountains in between the city of Guadalajara and Zacatecas. I used to go back and forth. Even though the town is in the State of Jalisco, it was closer for me to go to college in Zacatecas, in the city, so when I finished high school, I went to med school in the University of Zacatecas for two and a half years. And then my family decided that it was time for all of us to be reunited here, so we just moved here, the rest of us that were there, and we’ve been here since 1987. What was your school like, your primary school, middle school, high school? 2 I went to an all-boys’ school. It was two schools; Escuela Niños Heroes was specifically for boys, and right across the street in the same block was the girls’ school, and I forgot the name of that school. It was the regular school that everybody goes to. Obviously, there was a private institution and all the affluent people from the town used to send their kids there. Mom was never interested in sending the boys there because we were a little bit of a handful. There is seven of us kids. I’m almost the youngest boy. I have four brothers and I have two sisters, so there’s seven of us. I have a younger sister and everybody else is older. By the time I went to school, I had to kind of follow up the steps of my older brothers that were not the model of students in elementary, in junior high school and high school. I was actually the good kid. I was the good kid that always did my homework, did all the things that were told to me. At some level everybody expected me to misbehave like the rest of my siblings, and that was not me. The school was very simple. I would say it’s very simple and small compared to my limited experience with the schools here in the United States. My husband is the vice president of the teachers’ union [Clark County Education Association]; he’s also a teacher. Oftentimes I talk to him about when I was in elementary school in Mexico. I remember in that school that I went to it was two sections of every grade; first through sixth grade there were two sections, Section A and Section B. There was probably about twenty-five, thirty students at the most, and so all the students grew up and went from year to year to year to year. When we finished that we went to junior high, secundaria, and then there was, again, sort of the private and the other one, so we would go to the other one. For the most part, it was a very healthy experience. There was not a lot of malice. There was not really violence. It was never an issue. I think that the major things that we used to see 3 when we were kids were just accidents, traffic accidents where people will die. But other than that there was no gun violence, there was no drugs. I didn’t know anything about drugs when I was growing up. There was just there. The town was a very typical Mexican town that I grew up. At that time it was about ten thousand people. But Colotlán was one of the first cities that was founded after the Spanish went through the conquest and they conquest Mexico City; Tenochtitlan was conquered by the Spanish between 1519 and 1521, ’22. The next several years and several decades were about expansion of the Spanish in Mexico, and so they settled in the State of Jalisco, which used to be called Nueva Galicia, because they found minerals in the State of Zacatecas, and so they settled and founded my town in 1591. There is a lot of history about people that lived there from the 1590s all the way until now because it continues to exist as a town. There is a lot of history of just blood everywhere, and independence, and the natives, and all that stuff. The reason I’m bringing this up and the reason I’m saying this is because it’s fresh in my mind. Actually, I have been reading about that more now than before because of genealogy…that I’m doing. That town was up in the mountains. It was the cross between Guadalajara and the City of Zacatecas. The reason they founded that town, along with several others, is because they needed to keep the chichamicas, the Indians, away because they would send settlers, they will send Spanish and they will send everyone there to settle little towns, and then the Indians will come and raid the entire town, kill people and the whole thing. That region of Mexico actually has more—it took about fifty years to be conquered compared to the two and a half years it took what now is Mexico City. When you start looking at all of that, the town is rich in history, rich in architecture, which may not be the same anymore because I haven’t been there for thirty-two years, but it’s rich and strategic in historical purposes. 4 We grew up, like I said, up in the mountains. At the time that I grew up it was very healthy, if you want to call it that. There was no pollution. There was nothing. People knew each other. The front door of my house was always open and people will just come in to say hi and whatever and that was my childhood. It was whatever it is that I wanted to do. There was a lot of religion; the Catholic Church was present. Also, there was a Protestant church and several other churches, but in a very typical Mexican town at that time, the main center of the plaza has the huge Catholic church. What was interesting for my town is that there are three churches. Even though it’s a small town, there were three churches and the first one was really the basic one, the one that they founded, the Spanish, and it was the big one, the one in the center. It was for the Spanish and pure blood, whatever, and a couple of natives. Then the other church was for the local tribes; that’s called (San de Colas). The very small church was for all the rebels that were also from other tribes that were rivaling everything else. It’s a small town, but there were tons of churches to balance everything. The religious beliefs and everything was always there. I just happened to come from a family where we never believed in going to church because it was just not something that happened. Obviously, my mother made an effort to send us all the time. Sunday morning at eight o’clock in the morning there was this service in the main church for all the kids and we would go there, but if you asked me what I did when I was there, I was not sure what I did. I will go because she will trust that we will go. My mother was never one of those religious people, either. She was very much into nature, and I think it has to do with the way she looked and the way she is. I gave a little history of that region and I can tell you that, for instance, my mother had red hair all her life, natural, her and her sister. There is this mixture of skin tones and appearances in that region because of the early colonization and mixture later. 5 My uncles are light-skinned and light hair. My mother, when she would walk into town, she would overhear people saying, “What’s wrong with this woman’s hair?” Because it was red hair. It wasn’t that huge fire red hair. It was more like a brown. I see pictures of actresses right now and I tell Mom, “That was the color of your hair.” “Yes, now it’s in. Look, I had it all natural.” She was like that for many years. I think the reason we were not as religious, it had something to do with her trying to find her own acceptance into that mixture. If you ask any Mexican, regardless of what we look like, if we’re lighter or darker, however, we know that we’re mixed, and so we don’t have to look for ethnicity, we don’t have to look for any historical background as to what we are. We know we’re Mexicans regardless of what we look like and that’s how she is. But I remember she used to say, “I will walk by to go to the grocery store or whatever and some of the people will say, ‘What’s wrong with this woman’s hair?’” Because there were probably about five in the entire town. Her sister and her siblings did not live there; they lived in the city. They just thought, what’s wrong with her? This desire to find a way to be accepted and understood…She’s the most nonjudgmental person I have ever met. Everybody says things about their mother, but in this case…My husband and my mother don’t judge anyone. But my mother was always giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. She was never interested in religion—I mean, she would go to church when there was a marriage or whatever and she will say that she will go to church and all those things, but it was not something that was always present. There were religions icons and paintings and crucifix in the house, but it was because it was more cultural, not really because she had that connection, and she did. I remember as a kid asking those things that as kids you ask your parents. There was a bird that was dead, and I said, “Mother, what happened to this bird?” “It died.” “What happens to the birds that die?” “Well, they just go in the ground and dissipate 6 with the rest of it and everything comes out, and that’s going to happen, the same thing, to you. When you die that’s how it’s going to be.” It was more very realistic and very natural and she never pushed the religious stuff on us. I remember going to other denominations that would come and say, “Elena, why don’t you come to our church on the weekend?” She would go to the churches, like Jehovah Witness and some of the other ones; she will go there and just sit there. For whatever reason, she would take me, not the rest of my siblings, but she will take me. I was between five and eight all these times that we go to visit different churches. They had food, so I would eat and I was happy. But it was the same stuff and I was getting bored, people reading the Bible. I was not used to people reading the Bible and having opinions, different rituals than the Catholic Church. I was like, okay. I remember when we would leave they would say to her, “We hope you can come back. We’re going to be here next week.” And my mother would say, “Yes. We’ll see; we’ll see.” Then I would leave with her and say, “Mother, are we coming back? The food was very good.” “No, we’re not coming back.” And I would say, “Why?” “Because I don’t have time for that.” I would say, “But they say that God is…” Basic questions. “God is everywhere even at the house, so it’s fine. You don’t need to be here or there or there. You’re fine.” She never closed the door on anyone. To her credit, she really allowed me, since I was a kid, to be exposed to different experiences without having to make a judgment out of that. In light of that town being so religious, there was this family with a woman who had red hair and these kids that were a little bit wild because we were the first ones that were criticized in the Catholic Church. We were the first ones that will be saying, “Why do we have to do this crap in the church? Why is that you’re graduating from high school and you have to have a ceremony in the church? Nobody is fucking getting married.” There you go, the first. BARBARA: The first? 7 That is the first. Nobody is getting married. It was that sense that the status quo—I remember very early on in my life—the status quo was something that was subjected to be questioned. I remember my brothers were already in high school and they would come back home and we would be having dinner or something and they will be questioning God and they will be making jokes about Jesus and the cross and about any of the saints. Saint Jude? No. Saint Joseph, I think. Is he portrayed by a little dove or something? BARBARA: Yes, Saint Joseph. Yes. Who was married to the Virgin Mary? Somebody was married to the Virgin Mary. Yes. I remember my brothers would say, “The reason Joseph has a walking cane is because he is trying to kill the dove that impregnated the virgin.” Stuff like that. We thought it was funny. My mother never said anything. She’s like, “Stop. You shouldn’t make fun of all those things.” It was funny because we knew that those were subjects subjected to be used as pieces of conversation about something, not the sacredness that other people tended to have. School was very basic and very simple, elementary school. They used to involve all the kids in dances and whatever it is. After the year was over, they would have a huge ceremony where they will graduate the kids to go from elementary school to the next level, and so there will be dances and poetry reading and the whole thing. The entire town was invited. I remember early on the teachers chose me to start dancing with the rest of the kids and I was dancing with them. Every year at the end of the school year for six years I was doing something, like everybody else. MONSERRATH: What kind of dance did you do? 8 Regional dances. Every state in Mexico has a typical dance (gestampa). There is about thirty-one. The State of Jalisco has a lot of mariachi. The State of Veracruz has a lot of harp. Then the north, the accordion, and so forth. They will just make sure that we will be exposed to all of that and we will be dancing. Teachers will choose whatever and we will be dancing. They used to also make us dance Aztec, native dances with the music, the flute and all that stuff. All of that was enriching; that was part of it. It didn’t matter what you looked like. I remember I had a couple of friends that were blond. One of them was blond, a girl from across the street, the other school, and her hair was down to the middle of her back and it was completely, and she was dressed as an Indian, too. It doesn’t matter what you look like, you are a mixture of everything. In that school that was the artistic side for everybody. I remember teachers were a little strict. At that time it was okay to hit the kids. Did you ever get hit? For God’s sakes. Yes, I did. Over what things? Give me an example. Some bullshit. Something really that didn’t make a lot of sense. I had a blind teacher, for God’s sakes. Oh my gosh, no wonder people cry in these things. I had a blind teacher. Her name was or is—Yolanda Marquez. She had progressively become blind. She started losing her eyesight in one eye and then the other. It was a genetic condition with her family, and they were some of the affluent people there and you could tell. In retrospect, when I lived in between the entire city, I’m so used to seeing every shade of people. It doesn’t matter where they come from. There was the very dark ones and there was very light ones. Now that I remove myself for thirty-something years after and I am somehow indoctrinated by this culture that you have to look this way, you have to have this thing, I think 9 about that teacher, one of the affluence of the town, and she was tall, light-skinned, blondish, but there was a genetic condition they had. I remember if you will be talking to your neighbor, because we were sitting in a double bench so every bench has two students and there were two rows, if you were talking and making noise and being distracted, then she will get annoyed. I remember she was so horrendous one day. She asked one of the students, her favorite student Elano, she asked him, “I need your belt.” She went outside. She left us working and she went outside to talk to another teacher and she came back. There were people doing flips in the middle. For kids, you’re gone for fifteen minutes and it’s fun. I happened to be sitting down, but she came back and announced. Everybody started looking and she got very angry. She said, “Elano, come here. Give me your belt.” She grabbed the belt. I’m thinking that’s the guy she’s never going to touch. She grabbed the belt and she started one at a time. She went in the front row. The first one got up. Three. Then went to all of us. Then he was at the very back and I’m thinking he’s not going to get hit. Oh yes, he did, with his own belt. It was horrendous. Some kids were…It was horrible for some of those kids. In retrospect, now that I look at it, they probably had a lot of behavioral issues. They probably didn’t have enough to eat, either. I remember they will inspect your hands. They will inspect your hygiene and the whole thing. I don’t know if that happens here because that’s my only frame of reference when I was in Mexico. If you come back tomorrow and you have not taken a shower…And it was fine with us, with our family, and most people. I remember there were these kids that lived on the other side of the river and then they go to school. They are kids that are like five, six, seven years old. Since the town is up high in the mountain, in the winter it’s cold and it’s dry and it’s windy. I remember their hands will get so dry. As much as they would wash them, it looked like they never did. There was like mud, but they were so dry. I 10 remember when the teachers all of a sudden they wanted to inspect our hands, they would go like that to make sure the nails are cut and then go through, whatever. Those kids that were the Aguilera kids, oh my gosh, they will suffer with a stick because they will make sure that she will hit them to ensure that they will clean their hands or whatever, and they couldn’t because they were so dry they couldn’t even have enough money for hand lotion or anything. It was just horrendous. I remember those abuses. I had other teachers that were also horrible and they would pull your ears and they would just grab you by the hair and they would just slap the hell out of you. I wasn’t going to experience a lot of that shit so I was good. When I would go there, I would be quiet. I remember that most people were okay with that. I wasn’t interested in being abused by that. At the same time, I think it was a basic education that you had. Every year you would just go to school and the first week of school you will come back with a set of books, five books that were yours to keep, and they would come from the Department of Education, Mexico City, national. You’ll have the natural science and social science and the math and whatever, five little books, Spanish and photography and all that stuff, and so they will go through all of that. The other thing that was interesting that I just kind of found intriguing when I moved here—think about this. This is just typical me, right? I remember in sixth grade there was this section in the natural science book of human anatomy and there was this drawing of a boy and a girl. I remember that was the idea of getting to sixth grade, to open that book that you will take home. You open it like, oh my God, did you see this? Clearly it was from the moment of conception all the way to adulthood. That was the basic, simplistic way of putting it. There were some teachers that will get in trouble, but not with anybody but some of the parents, but not as in trouble here; they will just get questioned, but never any issues. Those kids, they will bring their 11 book and those two pages were ripped out by the parents. There was no, let me ask the teacher to get special permission, nothing. You sent your kids here, so we’re going to have to teach them all these things. I remember going home and saying, “Mother, I have this and this and this.” “Okay.” “You mean you’re not going to do anything?” “No, that’s your body. That’s how it’s going to be.” “Okay.” I would just go to those kids and be like, “Hey, I still have those two pages.” But I never thought of anything because they would just tell you how it was. They will tell you, “There is the sperm and there is the egg and this is how it is and here’s a plant. There’s an egg and blah, blah, blah, and there is an animal.” They would walk you through the process very, very clearly in a way that you would understand it as a kid. To me that made sense. I went to junior high school, secondaria, which is three more years, seventh, eighth and ninth. This is a shock to me because you’re exposed to that and nobody raises an eyebrow about it because these are kids and most people are kind of understanding. There is a lot of emphasis on science, on things that have nothing to do with anything. This is the school for the poor, for the crazy ones, for the lowlifes, not for the rich. The rich had (a school) that was run by nuns and that was a problem because they could never get exposed to any of that stuff. Those kids have to go there in uniform. It’s private. Just think about Bishop Gorman and some of the others in comparison in many ways. There was a uniform. They will go there and separate themselves. We were exposed to all of that. When I went to the equivalent of seventh and eighth grade here, we had a natural science teacher. We went to this junior high school that had a formal lab with the tables like this and the sink in the middle, and you had your microscope and the whole thing, like on a Wednesday when you had natural science. You would do experiments about everything and you can look at everything on t