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Interview with James Nobuo Yamazaki, October 14, 2005


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Narrator affiliation: Physician in Charge, Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission, Nagasaki

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Yamazaki, James N. Interview, 2005 October 14. MS-00818. [Transcript]. Oral History Research Center, Special Collections and Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.


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Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with James Yamazaki with Aki Yamazaki October 14, 2005 Van Nuys, California Interview Conducted By Mary Palevsky © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with James Yamazaki October 14, 2005 Conducted by Mary Palevsky Table of Contents Introduction: birth, family background, history of European and U. S. involvement in Japan, early life and treatment of Asians in Los Angeles 1 Immigration Act of 1924 and Asian citizenship 5 Attends UCLA and helps in father’s ministry in the Episcopal church in Los Angeles 9 Discusses fears in the 1930s and early 1940s of war between Japan and the U. S. 10 Graduates from UCLA ( 1939), attends Marquette University Medical School 15 Reflects on 500 years of historical connections, from European trade coming to Asia through dropping of atomic bombs on Japan and continuing into the present 16 Talks about influence of Dr. Katherine Dodd on his medical research 17 Mentions Dr. Ashley Weech and his influence on recruitment to study atomic medicine in Japan 19 Military service with 106th Infantry Division, participation in the Battle of the Bulge, massacre of black soldiers after battle, experience as a prisoner of war, liberation, and the end of World War II in Europe 20 Returns to the U. S., hears about the atomic bombings of Japan and end of World War II in the Pacific 31 Social treatment of Japanese- American servicemen after World War II ended 33 Trains in pediatrics at children’s hospitals at the University of Pennsylvania and in Cincinnati, Ohio 35 Studies with Dr. Joseph Warkany in Cincinnati. 37 Studies done by the U. S. and Japan on radiation effects in Japan. 38 Moves to Japan to as part of Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission to conduct radiation studies; treatment of Japanese- Americans in post- war Japan, and life and scientific work in postwar Nagasaki 40 Description of Urakami Valley, Nagasaki, over which the atomic bomb was detonated 48 Summary of scientific study of genetic effects of atomic bomb in Japan, social effects in Japan of possible radiation exposure, and effects of radiation exposure on large vs. small populations 55 Study of radiation effects on Marshallese after the Bravo thermonuclear test 59 Radiation effects studies on brain and nervous system development at UCLA 62 Study by Stafford Warren on the effects of Trinity on surrounding populations 63 Conclusion: Story of visit to Apache Reservation near Trinity 64 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with James Yamazaki with Aki Yamazaki October 14, 2005 in Van Nuys, CA Conducted by Mary Palevsky [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Mary Palevsky: Dr. James Yamazaki, thank you so much for meeting with me today. I thought we could start by just you telling me your full name, your date of birth, your place of birth, and before we started filming you were talking to me about your view of time and when your own ancestors came to this country, and maybe we can start out talking about that. James Yamazaki: I’d be very happy to talk with you about my thoughts on what you just said. I’m James Nobuo Yamazaki. I was born in Los Angeles in 1916 at the Hospital of the Good Samaritan, and delivered by Dr. Chalmers Francis who eventually became a good family friend and encouraged me to go into medicine. You were talking about my views about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And I try to express myself to students— and we instigated a course at UCLA [ University of California Los Angeles]— my thought was on war and peace but eventually it became a political science course. But in that course I begin my talk with the picture prelude to World War II In this section I show the map of Asia and how that the war is related, from somewhat a Eurocentric war, in that Japan is at the eastern limits of the European countries coming into Asia over a period of 500 years. It shows that the furthest, and this is just of Asia itself, but at the western edge is India. And then we show going on toward Malaysia, Indochina, China, and then to the south toward Indonesia and then to the Philippines; and show the involvement of the Portuguese and the Spanish, the English, the French, and the Dutch, and approaching then the 1900s with the Spanish- American War, [ the] United States’ role and the involvement in the Philippines and Hawaii. And then UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 eventually I relate this that one of the— because of my involvement in the work with the atomic bomb, we particularly saw the relationship of this time frame— of how the Spanish and the Portuguese in particular came to Japan. And now that I’m approaching ninety years old, 500 years seems like a very short period— being that my father [ John Misao Yamazaki] came to this country in 1904, and then my grandmother [ Monica Ori] came to this country when I was around four or five years old and she was born before 1850. So now that’s very recent times to me; all of these time frames now become to understand what happens in World War II, our relationship of the various countries, that this is a very short period to me now. Before it seemed like ancient history, because the Civil War seemed like a long time ago. But actually the United States’ interest in Japan was somewhat sordid after Perry came in I think it was around 1853, because of [ 00: 05: 00] the Civil War. And then Japan, because of their involvement with the United States and the Western powers, had their own civil war. And then in the 1880s they went from a feudal government and became a constitutional government framed on the European pattern, especially they chose Germany. And during this period there was already bomb— this wasn’t the first battle engagement. There was bombardment even of southern Japan, and it somewhat reminded me that one of the discussions about the atom bombing was if Japan didn’t surrender after Nagasaki, they would still be thinking of invading Japan. But Japan already had experienced in the 1800s bombardment of their southern cities, Kagoshima and the straits of inland seas, they already had experienced bombing from the European forces at the time when the United States was involved in the Civil War. It was about that time frame. I don’t know the exact dates. But I think we should keep in mind that at the opening of the 1900s, [ the] United States was at the doorsteps of Peking [ China] with the Boxer Rebellion. And all of this encounter between Europe [ and] Asia is a very recent UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 story. And the United States was not absent in this effort. In fact they were at the doorsteps of Peking at the opening of the century. So that’s the kind of time frame I see it, and that without discussing this and the atom bombing I think misses an important link. What was interesting to me when we spoke on the phone a few weeks ago, and you mentioned it in some of your writing also that relates to this, is your own concerns about the war when you’re a young man leading up to the war. So in other words, to come out of this larger time frame that you have at this point of your life, give me a sense of what your time frame and thinking was actually in the late 1930s, 1940s as a young person here in Los Angeles. Actually it’s earlier than 1930s. As we were growing up, we already knew that Asians were not welcome in this country. In fact there’s much thought that we were the Yellow Menace and it was pervasive in our bringing- up. Give me some examples of how that was in your own experience. Well, if a person— there’s a neighbor two doors from us that wanted to buy a home, and there’s already a legislation that Asians could not purchase property in California, so in order to get around this, they would ask some Caucasian friends to sign papers for them. And this was of course a matter of friendship and trust that you would buy a home in the name of someone else and that person would, if he were a scoundrel, could actually take that property from you. It was in his name. He [ the Asian purchaser] had no legal rights to this property. So in one hand there was this government saying you can’t buy this property; on the other hand there was this friend that would say they would do this for you, and there was complete trust that you gave them funds to buy this property. And then on a personal matter, as we were little kids, in the summertime there was a swimming pool there in the neighborhood, a private swimming pool, but we weren’t allowed to UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 [ 00: 10: 00] go to the swimming pool. And so one of our friends [ who] was our age group went to the owner and said, You clean the pool once a week on Tuesday. How about letting us swim in the pool the day they drain the pool, just before you drain the pool? And they said no, there’s nothing— they wouldn’t allow us to swim. So those things sort of remains in I would say sort of bitter memories. It’s hard to erase those things. Yes. Now this is in Los Angeles that you’re talking about. Yes. What area was that that you lived in in Los Angeles? It was called Uptown, but in the city lexicon it was called the Fedora Ghetto. Fedora Ghetto. Yes. Why? Fedora is a street that’s somewhat midway, and there was many Japanese living on that street, and there was a language school there that my father helped to establish. So just so I know where, if I were to drive there today, what would be some landmarks? Koreatown. Koreatown. Yes. Which is— streets are—? The boundaries would be Western and— north- south streets would be Western and Vermont, and Olympic would be the midline, and we lived at— which was— Olympic was then Tenth Street, and Tenth and Normandy is where we lived. Now your father, tell me a little bit about your father. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 Well, there’s one other thing of interest is that we were old enough in 1924 that we had— that the Immigration Act was earlier in the 1880s somewhat, Chinese were no longer allowed to immigrate. Then in 1924— and I discussed it in some of my talk to students— in 1924 Congress enacted the immigration law [ Immigration Act of 1924 ( Johnson- Reed Act)] that no longer allowed Asians to come to this country, and so that was completely shut. And the fact was that this was something that alarmed the young bachelors because then they couldn’t bring their wives here and start a family. So it was— in the neighborhood the young men— how were they going to find a wife to bring to this country? And they knew this legislation would come up for final decision and that it would pass, knowing the strong anti- Asian feeling in the country. It was extremely strong. And the government had some clause that you could only bring— a man could bring his wife to this country only if he had a certain amount of funds to support them. And it was a substantial amount of money. And so they would have a little group of self- loan they called tanimoshis where people would put money and then get the loan. It’s sort of a small neighborhood bank. And so that people put in— asked to get the loan from this neighborhood group. And my father got involved in going to Japan with a group of young men to look for wives. He was a minister. And the young men, they went to Japan. And I remember clearly because the last family to come to the neighborhood was the family, the young lady was a niece of his brother’s wife, and she came to this country. I remember the exact location— it was on Dewey Street— and the warm welcome that they received when they came to there. And that was the last family to come to this country, in our neighborhood. It was around somewhere before 1924. And we knew his kids and we grew up with them. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 Now when you said “ warm welcome,” so the whole community would be involved in this bringing of this young woman? Yes. And the house, I remember the house and the people who were the neighbors. It’s [ 00: 15: 00] still imbedded in me, the house they lived in and the neighbors and the street. And what would happen? Would there be a party or would there be just a—? Just a warm welcome, yes, so everybody knew who the family was. Interesting. And this was the main part of Los Angeles where Japanese- Americans lived, is that right? No, there were several enclaves. Several enclaves. But this was one of them, but it wasn’t the largest. OK. And your dad was a minister there, you say? Yes. And then there was at the same time our citizenships rights that Congress legislated, and then it had to go to the Supreme Court because the— I don’t know how these immigrants obtained their legal counsel or the movement that eventually it went to the Supreme Court about citizenship. And I think the basis was that— well, first of all, they weren’t granting citizenship to those who were non- whites. And I can’t remember what all the different clauses were, so that the angst that we felt was from the Supreme Court, from Congress, and the state: they didn’t want us. From my point of view, I never felt the Constitution applied to us. I said how could you if you— all these things restriction. And we learned that in San Francisco there were segregated schools, as it was in the San Joaquin Valley. And that was the early part of the twenties. Let me ask you a couple of questions about the citizenship issue. Your parents are citizens. After the war. After the war. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 Yes. OK, so before the war your parents were not citizens. Could not become citizens. Could not become citizens. Yes. But you’re born here, so you’re a citizen. Yes. We had dual citizenship. You had dual citizenship. But you had to register with the Japanese government to have dual citizenship. So otherwise being born here, you would’ve been an American citizen. Right. All right. What was your parents’ and your father’s attitude or teachings to you about— did you talk about the position that you were in as Japanese- Americans here? Yes. I think that’s pertinent to this war story because in Japan they have a thing called yoshi. Many families that do not have a male heir go outside of the family and bring a male that [ is] desirable that the family approves of to become the— assume the name. If, for example, they just had daughters, they’d need a male to carry on the family name and actually the family itself. And so the general idea was if you came to this country, this is where you made your bread, this is where you lived, you were in fact— owed your allegiance to that family, and in this instance to the country. And my father never had the feeling that we were going back to Japan, so consequently we never were taught too much about the history. But more so that we would make every effort, despite all the antagonism toward the Japanese and Asians in general, that this was our home and UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 this is where we should do everything to make this our home. And I think this was somewhat enhanced by the fact that when he became interested in the plight of the immigrants and went into the ministry, the Episcopal Church sent him to New England to study; first to Trinity College and then from there he went to the Berkeley Divinity School in New Haven [ 00: 20: 00] [ Connecticut]. And during that period he became immersed in America, its culture, its music, its arts. And from New Haven they went into New York on weekends and became quite— absorbed a lot of it, America there and developed friends. And even as we were growing up he said— well, when we would raise a question as we became older that here’s a Christian ministry and this is a Christian country. What’s so Christian about all of these legislation, Congress and Supreme Court, denigrating the race? And we felt— we didn’t feel inferior to anyone but we did resent and were bitter about being humiliated, almost to the point of anger, and yet we didn’t know Japan, so this was the dilemma. And we didn’t know the language. My father never strongly encouraged us to really study Japanese, though he had a school, language school in his church and in the neighborhood. He established two schools. But never the culture or the history. It was just so we could communicate with our parents better. Yes. Now tell me your father’s and mother’s names. My father was John Misao Yamazaki and my mother was Mary Tsune Tanaka. I had a couple of questions about what you said. I want to make sure I understand what you meant alluding to the Japanese custom of bringing in a male heir. That somehow relates to coming to this country and taking on this country as your own, is that your point? Yes. Exactly. In fact to us one of our biggest fears as a kid is there would be war between Japan and United States. From the time we were small, we would go to San Pedro where Father had people from his hometown there and we’d visit there, and he was a ship chaplain, and so that we UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 saw this relationship, a trade, and coming into San Pedro. And at that time I think the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet was in San Pedro, then eventually it went to San Diego and then before the war in ’ 39 to Hawaii. So as a little boy, we saw San Pedro filled with Navy, and then along the coastal, Fort MacArthur where the big guns [ were] pointing toward— westward to Japan, right? And who else? And so we always had this potential of war hanging over us. And then even when I was at UCLA, by that time my father had this church and he insisted that we help in his work just as much as many of the other Japanese who were gardeners, their sons helped their fathers, would mow the lawn, he says you have to help in the church work. When we were at UCLA, part of our work beside studies was you take care of the boys, and I was eventually a scoutmaster. And when we— singing in the choir and this kind of thing. And even after I graduated UCLA, the only jobs we could get was working on the farms or gardening, fruit stand— even application for being a postman, I thought if I got a postman I could still study if I didn’t get into med school. Just delivering mail, I could study at night. But no response to my application. It was that kind of a time. Now when you say “ we” had this feeling, you’re talking about yourself and your brother or other young men that you were growing up with? Some. We had of course varying degrees of concern, but with taking the— like when I was at [ 00: 25: 00] UCLA, the scoutmaster— after we come back working on the farm, we still had to take care of the younger kids. And we brought them to a beach called Brighton Beach, which was not a Park- and- Recreation beach but it was a stretch of sand on Terminal Island where all the naval vessels, big naval vessels often parked, like the [ USS] Lexington and [ USS] Saratoga. And where [ what] else would they be ready for except war, some military engagement with UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 Japan? What other conclusion could you come to? And so while we’re taking care of the Boy Scouts, we could see all this going on. Politically, beyond your own plight and the discrimination you were seeing, as a young man were you seeing political— were you aware of political situations that would fuel this fear about an eventual war? Yes, I was because somehow I was involved enough that I— in high school even we had ROTC [ Reserve Officer Training Corps] and I guess I was a little more concerned than the other Japanese boys because I joined the ROTC. On weekends I would go over to the library and look at this gray journal of foreign— what’s that gray journal about foreign policy? Foreign Affairs? Foreign Affairs. Yes. Leaf through that and see what— there would be articles about Japan and Manchuria and God, they were fighting, already there was war. And this would be main issues in the Foreign Affairs book, and it seemed like— and the Hearst papers daily, and the L. A. [ Los Angeles] Times was almost as strong about the Yellow Peril and war and the battles’ insignias. At least to a kid it was very frightening. Did you have any opinions about what Japan was actually doing or was it—? Well, in some respects I didn’t understand; in others I did. Australia was closed also. They wouldn’t allow— and Japan in the midst of the Depression, the population expanding, we heard about that. In fact that was some of the reason the Japanese were immigrating to Hawaii and here, that they were not able to provide for their people, so many of them immigrated here and to— to the United States for a livelihood. It was closed. At the same time in the early twenties the League of Nations was being formed. Somehow in our house, my father had every paper, the Japanese papers, there were two or three UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 papers, and then the daily morning and evening papers. Hearst Paper had a morning Examiner and the evening paper also. Then there was the LA Times. So our dining table was filled with papers of all events and we were always listening to what it was all about, the naval treaties. And then one that caught our attention, of course, was the naval treaty [ Five- Power Treaty ( 1921)] where even though Japan was allied with the European powers during World War I, when they start building their naval situation, they were limited by England and the United States and I said, uh- oh, that’s going to rankle some power. And then the League of Nations, I think China and Japan asked the League in their opening documents, in the opening— I’ve never found the original situation where Japan asked that they be considered as part of the human race. And that was not accepted. And I thought, oh, that’s bad news. Something’s going to erupt. Then this burst of humiliation, and then anger, and then there’d be rage. Something’s going to break. I wonder what’s going to tip the vessel. So it was a very Eurocentric American kind of feeling that was pervasive. And then as [ 00: 30: 00] kids, you know, it’s not uncommon to read in the paper about the lynchings of the blacks. And then we were extremely concerned, too, about this Christian nation killing the Indians with superior weapons and even with cannons on villages. We thought, my God, what is this Christian nation doing? And we would bring this up with our fathers, especially after Sunday or sermon or something, as we got older. I said God— later I thought the temerity of us criticizing my dad’s sermon when we weren’t doing a lick about anything and this and just criticizing. And my dad would say, Well, look, even in Congress it wasn’t 100 percent. He says, Look at the voting records. And there was a definite segment that said no to some of these situations. The Supreme Court hearing, too, it wasn’t always a complete— so dad says, You got to think about, there are people who are not just UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 only friends but just want to have an equitable society. You should think about that, he would say. So that sort of calmed me down, but I wasn’t convinced. The Church would say one thing on Sunday and do anything else on the rest of the week. And the racial situation really concerned me, that if war should break out, if they could kill Chinese and subjugate the Indians and the blacks, what would the rage do with war? How would they turn on us? I was concerned. You thought about it. I very was concerned. I don’t know— I didn’t talk about it with the other kids but I was really concerned. I have two questions from this. The first is, it sounds to me, and maybe you can give me some insight into this, your father had made some kind of decision that he was staying here and raising you here for some reason. Oh, absolutely. Do you have any—? Well, he came here, and the immigrants are here, they established their lives so they’d make a living here, and he felt basically, I guess, that making a home here was— that we’re not here to return to Japan. Yes, I think that’s what he felt. So he had in a sense chosen this country over Japan for some reasons. No, he didn’t choose one country over the other. Just that we were— this would be our place. Because there were families that decided they’re going to return to Japan. That’s what I’m trying to say. Yes. And because he would say, Look, we’re here to stay. You go to Japan in case of outbreak of war, you’re going to be involved, but this is our home. If war breaks out— it wasn’t a matter of Pearl Harbor happening— If and when war breaks out, UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 the only way you’re going to be able to stay here after the war is that you do the same thing as the Jones and the Smith boys, that you serve in the armed forces, and maybe that would give you a foothold after the war to stay here. He didn’t say we would. He said at least that much would be a prerequisite. So that leads right to my second question. You made the decision to go into ROTC, is that right? Well, it wasn’t that deep. In those days, you said if I was in the ROTC, maybe I could get in the cavalry and ride horses. We never had the money to ride horses. This is before tank days, right? No, I wouldn���t say I had that kind of a deep kind of thing but I thought, if I got in the Army, it was one way of making a living and ride horses. No, I wasn’t trying to imply that it was deep but I wondered if it had to do with deciding you’d be in better shape in case of war. I don’t know where that came up, but I knew that as I was in college I started thinking of all that. Yes, sure, in high school it was just football and things like that, just playing in the band and this kind of stuff. OK, that sounds right. It sounds right for high school. Yes. So you were born in 1904. No, I was born in 1916. My father came to this country in 1904. Yes, you’re not 100 yet. Sorry — 1916. [ 00: 35: 00] So I wanted to ask you what the situation was when Pearl Harbor finally came, but before I do that, is there anything else that you’ve thought of that you should mention? You know, I think we knew the war in China, in Manchuria that I was telling you about, the Foreign Affairs magazine and the newspaper and all of that. And then in 1941, I came back from medical school in June, things were warming up. All the cargo ships from Japan, freighters were UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 floating in San Francisco harbor. I went to see my brother there. He wanted me to drop by when he was going— he was already in divinity school up there. And then about that time the embargo. First there was on steel, but then when it became oil I thought, that’s it. We knew that Japan had no oil source and it had a war in China, so that means war. In fact I later learned from people, from Japanese that the day that the oil embargo was made, a wire went out to all ships at sea that expect any kind of eventualities from this day on. So that message went out right away. Let me pick up the string. You graduated UCLA, then you applied to medical school. Yes. I graduated in ’ 39. And where did you go to medical school? At Marquette [ University, Wisconsin]. So in ’ 39 was when Poland, the blitzkrieg started, so already something was on flame. And then the United States was such a, at that time, what do you call that, the isolationist point of view. But then the blitzkrieg of a country was the first time we really could see the demolition of cities by air to the extent it was. Yes. Had you always wanted to be a doctor? Tell me a little bit about wanting to become a physician. Oh, I don’t [ laughing]. It could be that family doctor I told you about, Dr. Chalmers Francis. And when the kids in the household would have high fever, he’s one of these— my dad would implore him that it’s 104 [ degrees], he needed someone to look at the kids, and Dr. Francis would come to the house. And he would draw little rabbits for us at the bedside. And by then my grandmother was in this country, and as we recovered she would tell us Japanese stories at the bedside. So eventually we did learn something about Japan and the general feeling of Japanese through these stories and through her, more than from my parents, I think, because that was old Japan, 1850s UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 Japan, right? And so it made a big difference in how I looked at Japan, I think, what kind of people they were, what the kids learned. Two questions about that. What was your grandmother’s name? Monica Tae [ sp]. Her maiden name was Ori. And then again, before we started filming, I’m not sure that I understood your point correctly but you said something about how the 500 years that your grandmother’s life somehow represented seemed shorter than the 100 years that had come after or— I think I misunderstood you but you were making a point— Well, it wasn’t that long ago. It’s really current history to me. It’s current for my lifetime. The 500 years, you’re saying. At least the 150, and the life she had before then, if it translates to my time, if I’m relating to 150, 150 of her time, 300 before then. And then when I went to Nagasaki, I became more aware [ 00: 40: 00] of that and say hey, this all ties up just 500 years ago that Europe was coming into the lives of Japan. So you see the historical connections. Yes, the continuity, and all of this war, Pacific war and the atom bomb is related to this history, to the cultures, clashing of the cultures or the, if you want to call it, trying to absorb Europe into the lives of a completely indigenous type of culture that consists of China and Japan, all of Asia, that they were tied together. And the story of the coming of the Portuguese to Goa or somewhere around there in India. It’s just very recent because they were aware of all this thing in Nagasaki, and that was the reason why eventually after the initial welcome to the Portuguese, they decided that this might result in taking over the country, so get them out. And that certainly can’t be unrelated to the atom bomb. It’s a continuity of all these feelings. And to think that Pearl Harbor UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 triggered this war is not quite correct in my mind. It’s a continuous story that still is being played out to this day. I think at least when the piece that [ Robert] McNamara wrote about Vietnam and that how those in [ President John F.] K