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Transcript of interview with Dr. Jacob Paz by Claytee White, September 15, 2014






During the 1950s, Dr. Jacob Paz grew up in an agricultural environment in Israel where he attended a very famous high school in Israel called Kadoorie where Yitzhak Rabin was a student. After his graduation, Jacob joined the Israeli army building his skills so that he could get into technical school after he fulfilled his army service. For two years he attended technical school and then started working for the Israel Atomic Energy Commission in Dimona, Israel making atomic bombs in the 1960’s. After working in Dimona, Jacob was accepted into UC Davis and moved to the United States to study veterinary medicine. After one semester, he realized that he preferred history and left California for New York City, There he earned degrees in Jewish history and chemistry from the Jewish Theological Seminary. He quickly moved onto graduate school and earned his master’s degree in marine science and environment from CW Post, Long Island University in Greenvale, New York. In 1972, he returned to I

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Paz, Jacob Interview, 2014 September 15. OH-02158. [Transcript.] Oral History Research Center, Special Collections & Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.


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i AN INTERVIEW WITH DR. JACOB PAZ An Oral History Conducted by Claytee White Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ©Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV – University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers and editors: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas iv PREFACE During the 1950s, Dr. Jacob Paz grew up in an agricultural environment in Israel where he attended a very famous high school in Israel called Kadoorie where Yitzhak Rabin was a student. After his graduation, Jacob joined the Israeli army building his skills so that he could get into technical school after he fulfilled his army service. For two years he attended technical school and then started working for the Israel Atomic Energy Commission in Dimona, Israel making atomic bombs in the 1960’s. After working in Dimona, Jacob was accepted into UC Davis and moved to the United States to study veterinary medicine. After one semester, he realized that he preferred history and left California for New York City, There he earned degrees in Jewish history and chemistry from the Jewish Theological Seminary. He quickly moved onto graduate school and earned his master’s degree in marine science and environment from CW Post, Long Island University in Greenvale, New York. In 1972, he returned to Israel to study the distribution of DDT, a synthetic compound, in the Jordon River and Lake Tiberus. After meticulously taking water samples, fish samples, and writing his thesis, Jacob encountered hesitation from the Hebrew University to fund his research. So in 1974, he enrolled in New York University. He worked full time as an adjunct research professor and with the Environmental Protection Agency [EPA] and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration [OSHA] while he attended school part time. In 1984, he received his doctorate from Polytechnic University in New York City. Dr. Paz arrived in Nevada in 1989 to work as an industrial hygienist for a Nevada Test Site contractor. During his career at the test site, he raised concern and brought to light the presence of erionite and the high potency of carcinogenics in the mines of Yucca Mountain. He outlined his views of weaknesses by the Department of Energy to execute the proper protections for the workers. He believes that if you want to drill, first you must protect your workers. He resigned from his position at the Nevada Test Site in 1991. v TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Dr. Jacob Paz September 15, 2014 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Claytee D. White Preface…………………………………………………………………………………………..iv Talks about growing up in Israel, attended Kadoorie High School; after service in the Israeli army worked for Israel Atomic energy Commission in 1960s. Provides overview of Israel’s history, from Biblical times; more about his young years in Israel, boarding schooling and later an agricultural school and its impact on his future studies; received Jewish Theological Seminary degree in New York and master’s in marine science and environment from CW Post….…..1 – 5 Talks about getting green card in 1974 to enroll in New York University; PhD in 1984 from Polytechnic University on nitrification. Explains his work in Israel from 1964-1966; level of secrecy that remains for him to this day. More about New York University, part-time work with Environmental Protection Agency; recruited by REECo and interviewing at Nevada Test Site and working in industrial hygiene there, types of testing during his time at the test site, and being required to give up his Israeli citizenship, working with erionite levels, Nuclear Regulatory Commission review being published in 2014. More about environmental data, EPA, and Superfund to clean up after tests, Yucca Mountain tunnel questions raised and opinions of scientists and environmental groups; currently teaches a class at OLLI (UNLV), environmental laws and regulations and Yucca Mountain; mentions Harry Reid, Dr. Coulbert………………………5 – 14 Shares about growing up Jewish, maternal grandfather was an orthodox rabbi; attended Jewish Theological Seminary; belongs to multiple congregations in Las Vegas and his relationship with various forms of Judaism. Jewish traditions………………………………………………..14 – 20 Discusses his views of local Jewish leaders and community; Sheldon Adelson, Chabad rabbis. Jewish migration to Las Vegas since 1940s and Benjamin (Bugsy) Siegel; Hank Greenspun. Affirms the Holocaust and that there should be no denial………………………………...…21 – 25 vi 1 This is Claytee White. It is September 15th, 2014, and I am with Dr. Jacob Paz, P-A-Z, here in the Oral History Research Center in UNLV's library. How are you this morning? Great. Good. Could you spell your full name for me, please? J-A-C-O-B; D, like David; P-A-Z. Thank you. Now, could you just tell me just a bit about your early life; what it was like growing up in Israel? In Israel I grew up in agricultural environment. I attended a very famous high school in Israel named Kadoorie where [Yitzhak] Rabin was a graduate. After the army I went to a technical school for about two years and then worked for the Israel Atomic Energy Commission in Dimona, Israel, making atomic bombs in the 1960’s. So tell me just a little about Israel. For those here in America, we don't know anything about it. Tell us a little about the country, the size of it, and the size of the city that you grew up in. Okay. Israel is actually one of the ancient civilizations in the Middle East that dates back about a thousand years before Christ. According to the Bible, we are the chosen people, which sometimes I question if we are chosen because we have murderers, we have rapist, and we have everything. So Jewish people in Israel went through a great deal of wars starting from the eighth century B.C.E and continuing to today. I grew up, up to I think the fourth grade, in Safed, which is located in Galilee. The history, going back for the second temple where they used to notify by lights and by burning wood, of the calendar of major Jewish holidays, the calendar, and was one of the fortifications 2 during the revolt against the Romans. In the eleventh and twelfth century it became a crusader fortification and then it was destroyed in decline. In the fifteenth century it became a famous Kabbalistic, mystical city. The word before mystic? Kabbalistic. Kabbalah. Kabbalah is mysticism to try to bring God using all kind of ways—that we have a book called The Zohar, which even they have in Las Vegas a cult, called the Kabbalistic Cult. And earlier you named the temple. It was...? The second temple. It was destroyed by the Romans around 66 A.D. And you called it what? It's called Safed, S-A-F-E-D. Wonderful. Thank you for that. Every once in a while when you say a word that you know most people are not familiar with and my transcriber is going to have a problem, could you please spell it as you go? I'll try. I'm a poor speller, but I'll try it. Okay. So then tell me more about growing up. Growing up...I grew up over there during the Independence War with my grandfather from Eastern Europe around 1950, I grew up, and then my parents were divorced. So I left my grandparents and I went to very famous modern school where it came from Germany in 1933 or 1934, AHVA. In parenthesis, in English, called Love. This was a boarding school, which was very famous because it brought the children from Germany to grow up. That was a very interesting environment to grow in. It was very, very warm culturally environment, traditional Jewish song. The principal was very, very well educated people because the Jewish people who 3 escape from Germany, the Nazism, was a great deal of doctors, lawyers and teachers and educators. Then I'm attending—my mother remarried—I think about five years after high school, which was very famous in Israel. After working, graduate— Okay. Now, were you one of the children that came from Germany? No, no. I was born in Israel, seventh generation from my mother. From my father, he came to Israel, I think, in 1932 from Romania. And I visit two years ago where he was born in Romania, northern Romania. It was a very famous Jewish. And I'm planning to go there again because when we went to visit it was frozen cold. So I talked with my son to go to see my roots again. So you were telling me that story because you went to the same school that some of the students went to who came from Germany. Yes, until the eighth grade. So tell me more about the school. What was the subject matter like? What was a day like? We have to work about three, four hours a day in agricultural or to wash dishes or to serve food or to work in the garden or to clean the household. I'm independent. That was training me to become independent, particularly the German mentality, which is very straight. You have to do it. I'm sorry. That's what I was trained. It was very methodological, pedantic. You have to do the bed in this way; you cannot do this way. So the German are very oriented -- various think and various culture to do how you work precisely. You cannot deviate from the left to the right. It's good and bad. The agricultural school, which I went later, was very difficult to get in. Again, we work in the morning and go on to school in the afternoon and vice versa. We were controlled by the children. We don't have any parents. Maybe a guidance. But most all the functions have been 4 carried out by the children, how you were disciplined or not. In my class it was very good part, very good children, and it was part of the children who were sent from home because they have trouble and they predominated a great deal. And I could not and many times I was outsider because I had my own when I thought they were wrong and I did not comply with the peer pressure. There was a lot of peer pressure. What's happening is...the people who went through school, very high cohesion and they keep in touch with each other very strongly. I didn't keep up because I didn't feel that I belonged to the group. Only the third year when we start to get out—and particularly I was annoyed that the last year they went on a tour and I was sent back to work. What they need for? I am entitled like everybody else to work. Why chose me? And after then I serve— So what was the subject matter? The subject matter is cohesion, integration, peer pressure, independence. What kind of classes did you take? Over there— In that school. In that school, agricultural courses, math, chemistry, physics, Judaic study, soil science. And I was in charge of the soil laboratory. I was a very good student. Did that shape what you did later in life? To some extent, yes. And because the school—the principal of the school in 1936 came from Berkeley in the US to Israel. So we had a song how we're going to Berkeley and I always wanted to continue my education. I'll stop here and then I'll come back. What happened was that after graduating from school, I went for two years and a half to the Israeli Army and then two years technical school. I think I was an agriculture teacher for one 5 year. From '64 to '66, I worked for the Israel Atomic Energy Commission in Dimona. I was accepted to UC Davis to study veterinarian medicine. So I was promised to receive all the credit. I came to Davis. And they said, “No, we don't recognize it; you have to start from the beginning.” It was a big shock. So I spent one semester studying in Los Angeles. I always liked history. After that I left, went to New York. I got a bachelor's of Jewish history and chemistry. Say that again, a bachelor... Bachelor, baccalaureate, of Hebrew titmatun…Jewish history and chemistry. From the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York. Then I got my master's in marine science and environment from CW Post, Long Island University in Greenvale, New York. In 1972, I went back to Israel. At that time it was proliferation, the environmental movement. And I did first things in Israel, the distribution of (DDT) in the Jordan River and Lake Tiberias. Explain that to me. I went over there for the master's, took water sample, fish samples, small and large, and wrote my thesis. At that time the education system in Israel was very narrow-minded. I remember I came to the Hebrew University and I asked, “Please, help me, support me and do the study.” And I got two very negative responses. First response, who are you? How you can do yourself? The second was not sponsored financially, which could have been done. And that's become very bitter for me. I say, what am I doing for the country? In 1974, I got my green card because of my profession. I enrolled to New York University and worked full-time while going part-time to school. I got my Ph.D. in 1984 from Polytechnic University on nitrification. I worked during this time as adjunct research professor. I work for EPA, OSHA. In OSHA I felt that I made up tickets; my promotion would be dependent on how many tickets I gave. 6 So before we get to the work that you did here, earlier you said something about the atomic bomb. Was that here? No. I mentioned that I worked from 1964 to 1966 in Israel. And [President John F.] Kennedy and later on [President Lyndon] Johnson—and I called them the spy—send them to visit what I did. So where in Israel were you working between '64 and '66? I lived in Bean Sava and Tel Aviv. So in Dimona you were working with the bomb. Tell me some of the things— I cannot. Let me put it this way. According to the—I don't want to put it. But it's very sensitive in Israel. So even though I sign a security saying I would not talk for fifteen years because the law of the land is the law, I never told what I did in Israel to U.S. and I didn't tell it to Israel what I did in the U.S. And you still don't think you should talk about it? I don't want to go in. But I can say—the only thing what I can say in the literature that Israel has the capacity to make atomic bombs, then and now. Yeah. Its common knowledge now and even it's common knowledge with the American government. I called them, quote, the “spies.” They want to know what they're doing and Israel did such a good job to deceiving them. So they say that—they wrote—there is a book, which you should read, Israel and the Atomic Bomb. What's happened here...they thought that Israel does not have the capacity. But later on they came to some kind of mutual understanding—what to say—that Israel would not be the first one who will introduce atomic bomb to the region, use and introduce. So it's a very sensitive issue in Israel because in 1994, an Israeli worker who took pictures and revealed to all the world what Israel can do. 7 So after your Ph.D. in 1984, tell me what you did at that point. I was an assistant professor, environment. I was teaching courses. I worked part-time for the EPA. Where? In New York City, NY. Which agency were you working for, which university? Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. And then I worked from 1989 to 1991 for OSHA. And how I came back to Las Vegas is very interesting. Now, you said came back. Look, I visited in '76, but I came to settle here. Good. So tell me how that happened. What's happened...I saw an ad in the American Industrial Association, in the professional magazine, and I sent in a resume. My son was at home and took the message. The message, “Call REECo.” What the hell is a REECo? I scold him a little bit. I called. They say, “REECo.” REECo, Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Corporation. Two weeks later I get a cable. I flew. In ten minute interview I increased my salary from thirty thousand to forty-four thousand dollars a year. Where was your interview? At the Nevada Test Site. So you flew to the airport? No. I flew to the airport. Stay overnight. It was REECo near the Palace Station, the area I went over there. I think the HR manager was Trudy; she was the human resources manager. She was a character. I got the job. I worked here for two years. 8 And the reason I left...I was in charge of the industrial hygiene of Yucca Mountain. I had a boss who told me one time that you sound like Hitler. And it's a very sensitive issue to a Jew. So I say to him very diplomatically, “I'm not Hitler, I'm not Saddam Hussein, but I'll answer you like Moshe Dayan. And then he called me smartass. So I left. What kind of work were you doing? The industrial hygiene. Explain that to me. It's evaluation, recognition and prevention and finding solution to work-related injuries. And I did an excellent job for them. They loved me. Particularly I have done—was supposed to do the monitoring, short term, how much your exposure the short term, the long term, and it was very comprehensive study, which I did for a year and a half. So tell me how you studied the people who you thought were being exposed. How was it done? How it was done...I took my initiative, my knowledge and put them to good practice. I'm using OSHA regulation and guidelines and did the testing. Now, you have people who were interested to get better and there are nuts. There are people who would say, “Don't tell me; I have done it for twenty years.” There were some people like this. So I didn't have any power to conduct work because their main emphasis was there to do the tests, exploding the bomb. Were these aboveground tests when you were there? Most of them in the tunnel and underground because the aboveground was terminated in 1963. I stayed there. Because of my work and the knowledge work, which I have done, it's enabled me and to get the knowledge to challenge at the present time The Yucca Mountain project. So before we get there, if you can, if you're able to tell me, when you're getting ready for a 9 test, give me an example of how you went about your work. So there is somebody how close to the test? Let me put it like this. All my work was pretest because they were drilling in the tunnel, which produced dust, silica, noise. They had a situation, with a locomotive, and I came with two methods to reduce the exposure. So the bomb is planted. No. First of all, you drill. You drill two shafts, one to get it and where you put it—we don't call it the bomb; we call it device. Whatever. So the device is put into...? Put it in a special area, which is secured. At that time I didn't have yet the clearance. But in the later stages when I start to get my clearance, I have to give up my Israeli citizenship, which the law of the land is the law. So I had to obey. Now when I go to Israel, I don't have Israeli passport anymore; I have an American passport. And sometimes they ask me why. So I said, “I explode atomic bombs in Nevada.” You had to be an American citizen to do that. Yes. What's happened here...two years ago I took a tour of the Test Site, which is quite differently from the present time. I saw there a group. I say, “Where are you from?” They told me Israel. I start to talk in Hebrew. Ah. What are you doing here? I say, “I used to work here.” Again, shocked. Why? I say, “I have a Ph.D. or I have qualification.” So can you take me back again to what we were just talking about? Yes. So they're getting ready to explode a device. So tell me what happens. Before then, before taking the explosion, we have to protect the people—chemical, biological 10 and physical agent. So there are certain protocol. Whether they have done it, how they're working, it's a questionable issue. I did my job what I'm supposed to do. There was reluctance amongst some people not to do properly the work and wear the proper protective equipment. So tell me what the protocols were supposed to be. Suppose. If you have, say, five milligram, you have to wear this type of a mask. A certain type of mask. You have to wear gloves. You have to wear protective clothes. You have to clean. You cannot eat in the workplace. If you have noise, you put earplug. You have to teach how to use the earplug. If you have a chemical, you have to read the label. You have to be educated how to use the chemical. And there is a wide range how people behave. Like I saw a person working with wort glass. It's insulated. You say suspected carcinogen. I couldn't tell him to stop to work. I called my boss and I say, “Hey, look, that's what happened. Tell him to wear gloves and a respirator.” And they were unhappy because, “I did it for twenty years; nothing happened to me.” No, all of them. There is a wide range. An issue, which I have down in the tunnel, I monitor level of mineral called erionite, and I'll spell it. E-R-I-O-N-I-E (sic), erionite. The erionite is found at Yucca Mountain. So what is erionite? It's a mineral, which is the same family as zeolite, which include also asbestos. Why is it so important? Because the carcinogenicity property range from eighty to eight hundred times more than asbestos. So I wrote the memo and I make a recommendation how when you work in the tunnel how to do, which was ignored. And this part of it, I wrote two letters. To Nuclear Regulatory Commission, I brought this issue of erionite and particularly the high potency of carcinogenicity and the failure of the Department of Energy to execute in my opinion the proper 11 prevention protection, which can lead to very serious hazards and develop mesothelioma, which is cancer of the lining of the lung. And why I'm saying it...In Turkey, there are about four villages, which the house is built with erionite, and the mortality rate rose is from six point five to fifty-one percent. The lesson has not been learned by the Department of Energy. Short, if they want to drill, first is the protection of the worker. And I don't believe that they have technology or they can do it the way which they think and practice. What's happening now...probably at the beginning of November of this year, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission will publish their review of the environmental impact statement and the license application will go for hearing. I will come and I'll say, “Hold.” You have the atomic bomb administrative judge. You have a very difficult task, but you have to make a decision. Among other things and particularly, has the Department of Energy have taken the proper step? Which I say no. Second, the position they took is capricious and arbitrary? Because I listed and I warned them and it's a Supreme Court decision in 1989. The other thing which I claim that Yucca Mountain didn't pay attention that the site can become hazardous waste site because large amounts of toxic chemicals such as nickel and chromium, among other, will reach the ground water. How much would reach? It's not properly described, not properly investigated. When you're doing it, it has to be scientific opinion. But how you can do scientific opinion if you don't have environmental data? And they don't have the environmental data. In two letters, one of them March 30th, 2009, they agree with me that the Department of Energy did not properly discuss, analyze, whatever, a subject now to a legal point, because that will become a legal point. And I say you should have done it. Here is the EPA law. Here is the regulation which says cumulative effect. And here it's explained. And why you have not done it? 12 So after all these years they have not done the kinds of things that— Which are supposed to be done properly. I raise only four points. I say that how much the corrosion of the metal go into ground water was not done properly scientifically because when you're doing a scientific study, you have to take everything. They have taken, for example, reusing agent. They didn't put in the oxidizing agents. And the state of Nevada test results contradict them of this two very strong scientific issue; one contradict the other. The third part, how much will go into the ground water? Nobody knows about why this is important or to the soil because under Superfund, if a place comes Superfund, you have to clean it up. How they going to clean it up at that time when it's corroded? So it's a very big issue. What is the real risk not for one chemical or the nuclear, but the combination, metal to metal, like chromium and nickel and then chromium and nickel and then the plutonium. They don't have any data. So are you saying that—this has been going on since 1954. There are two things which you have to look. One is the issue of the atomic bombs, of explosion in the ground and in the air and into also ground water. Great deal of the study are classified and should be declassified. The other thing is since they stopped exploding atomic bombs—and it was 1992—but it does not meaning that the Nevada Test Site is—you don't know what will happen in the next hundred thousand years because it will continue to penetrate slowly, slowly to the ground water. There are some indication that there is certain localized area where there is elevated level of plutonium. It depends. Yucca Mountain come to be played I would say as significant role since 1993 when they started the drilling of the (inaudible/36:12) exploratory tunnel and started to put together the license environmental impact statement and then submit it, their license application, 2008. I raised all those questions for about fourteen years. Nothing has been done. Only the 13 EPA started lately—not directly to Yucca Mountain—to address the issue of complex mix of metals, et cetera, I even though in 1996 there was amendment to Clean Act, which say they have to do chemical study of interaction of carcinogen. They have not done it. So are there other scientists and engineers also speaking out with the same voice? You have two groups—three groups, I would say. One is the nuclear agenda, which say Yucca Mountain is safe. They cannot say to the right, to the left, their belief. And they're very powerful. Then they have the environmental groups like Sierra Club, et cetera, which get involved and they help me a little bit to write some of the letters. Then they have the common people and depends whether you live north or south. Because if you're living north, Yucca Mountain would bring prosperity to some county, more jobs. But in the south, it will kill the tourism and the gambling industry and the housing industry. Would you come to visit a city which for thirty years you have nuclear material holding high level, not low level? I'm talking not taking the risk when somebody can take a bazooka and shoot at the truck for any reason. When you have this, it's damage beyond comprehension. So, wow. What I'm doing now...I am teaching. I developed a course at OLLI across the street on nuclear waste. So OLLI is the program that seniors enroll in. Yeah, I have a course there. So tell me about your course at OLLI. I invited both sides of the spectrum and try to let everybody to make their own mind and this adjust the first. The course is I introduced the law and regulation, which is quite dry, but you have to do it. Dr. Colbert, who is an associate professor, mechanical engineer, introduce what is 14 Yucca Mountain and effect of radiation. Then we're going to have this coming week, metal corrosion from Harry Reid and Dr. Colbert will talk about criticality. Then I come and I say the efficiency of which and I bring several issue, which I talk now and try to bring it. And I bring the law and regulation. My emphasis is that the license application is incomplete in this forum because it's very strict regulation, which is stated that the license application must be complete and accurate by all means. I will emphasize the option that they have to do all this study. If I'm wrong, I'll have to change my mind. I'm accept it. I'm open-minded. Okay, good. Wow. Thank you for all of that background about what you're been doing. Now, after you left—you left after two years because you were insulted—what did you do at that point? I work for two years for AWC Lockheed. So you went to Southern California to do that? No. It's here. I'm with the local. And then I work for myself from March 2007 to August 2008. I worked at Fort Polk, US Army, which is in state of Louisiana, over there. Then I got the job at Savannah River and they fired me because I was opposed to Yucca Mountain. And I came back and I mostly now working on research and try to develop several issue associated with Yucca Mountain. So now I'm going to go back and I'm going to talk about growing up the way you grew up, about the religious aspects, Judaism. So now, you told me just a bit about your parents. Yes. Would you like to talk more about the backgrounds of your father and your mother? Okay. My grandfather was orthodox rabbi. Which side? 15 My mother. He was orthodox, but he never make his living as a rabbi because he didn't believe that you should make a living as a rabbi. And he came from Tiberias to Safed. They were tolerance; they can accept it. They kept their food kosher and were very strict. My father's side, the way I read, also his family was in Romania, very religious, but he fell away from religious when he came to Israel. He became more traditional. I am also more traditional. It's important for me the holiday, the synagogue, and the traditions. So let's give you the way that I went to the Jewish Theological Seminary, it helped me to develop an understanding of Judaism, the history, how they approach the Bible and et cetera. I am a member of various temples—Midbar Kodesh, Temple Beth Sholom and Ner Tamid. So I have been a member. For me it's important. It's not how long I pray; it's just the tradition, the history. And every Saturday morning we have a discussion group over the Bible, in which I'm very active. I'm also going from time to time to Chabad. Why? Because according to genealogy I didn't feel it is—my father's family is related indirectly to him or directly; I don't know exactly. To whom? The founder of the Chabad. In my father's side they are very religious people, Orthodox Jew. I have two Rabbis, which I think should be interesting. I have a rabbi, a daughter of my cousin, she become a Reconstructionist rabbi which was kept for years. And the other thing is about five, six years ago I went to visit the same rabbi who was in Philadelphia and I asked, “What's happened to Alan? Was Alan going with you?” They told me Alan got married. So I asked whom he got married. His Catholic boyfriend. [Laughing] But he's very happy. So that has been kept. So you understand? So when you use the term Reconstruction...? 16 Reconstruction is more to develop the Jewish—they have a wide range from very firm to very orthodox. Each one is separate. Because at my time an orthodox rabbi was very rare. So she is one. At the present time it's very important for me, the culture, the heritage and the history. And particularly every Thursday you have Jews for Jesus and they approach me. You know what I told them? “You're not kosher.” Okay. Wow. Any more questions? Yes, yes. So I'm going to ask you about—you told me a little about the various religious locations. What was the first; where did you join first? Here? Yes, here. Temple Beth Sholom and Midbar Kodesh-Beth Shalom a commemorative temple was located at St. Louis Boulevard and then it was split. Part I think was the rabbi. The other, it's in Henderson. So now, Beth Sholom wasn't part of it? No. Beth Sholom was Beth Sholom. No, I'm sorry. I first joined Beth Sholom and then it was split. I joined Midbar Kodesh. And wh