Transcript of interview with Kerin Scianna Rodgers by Dennis McBride, February 24, 1998

An Oral History Interview with Kerin Scianna Rodgers 1998 University of Nevada, Las Vegas James R. Dickinson Library Special Collections Department 4505 South Maryland Parkway Las Vegas, NV 89154 I Use Agreement we, M£ih> tkx• and AAcfi>r(ctg / hereby give to the University of Nevada, Las Vegas's Dickinson Library for scholarly and educational use by the public, the following tape-recorded interview recorded on . ITTQ , as an unrestricted gift. This agreement grants the University of Nevada, Las Vegas legal title and all literary property rights to this interview including copyright. However, it is understood that we or our heirs are freely allowed to use the information in this recording. (UIjm J tor's signature Narrator's address Date ~~P Interviewer's signature (qQI Av>e. F Interviewer's address James R. Dickinson Library Date Las Vegas Gay Archives Oral History Project Interview with Kerin Scianna Rodgers conducted by Dennis McBride February 24, 1998 This is Dennis McBride and I'm sitting with Kerin Rodgers in her living room in Las Vegas and we're going to talk about a few things I have listed and a few things I don't know that she's going to enlighten me about. The first thing I want to know is when you did you come to Las Vegas? 1966. August 17. It was hot! You remember the exact date\ Oh, yes! We drove across the desert from Los Angeles, my daughter, my cat, Mocha, and myself. And I thought the car was overheating [at] about Barstow and I kept getting out to see what was wrong because even outside the car was heating up the air. But it didn't register hot. Well, anyhow. I couldn't believe .... I thought there was something wrong. But anyhow, I came in off the old Las Vegas highway and driving down I keep looking for the Broadway Department Store. 1 And I had cut over some place or other, at Tropicana, I guess to Paradise, and I'm still looking and thinking, "Why would my company put a department store in the middle of nowhere? Who in the world's gonna go to it? Nobody s ever gonna come out here in the middle of the desert to go to a department store. I mean, I was just appalled. And of course it was just a bare frame building. It was in the process of being built and I was here to train the people. Is that what brought you up here, then? What people? Who am I gonna get [to work there]? Down the other end of the desert was Sears and Roebuck and that was built and in between was empty. That was the Boulevard Mall. Yes. To be. Did they send you up here to live or just to get the store up and running? They sent me to get the store up and running. They put me up—and my daughter, Leslie, and my cat, Mocha—at the La Concha [Motel].2 Which still stands. And it was kind of a snazzy little small motel at the time. That and the El Morocco next door. I don't know which one had the beauty salon with what's-his-name, Mario. He's still around. Marion\ Tony Marion and his brother, Mario!^ They're still big shots with the Italian-American Club and they're in everything. Anyhow, they had the beauty salon. And then the fellow that had the beef house with the best prime rib in Las Vegas. The Copper Cart. Jack Denison? That's right. So there I was staying there and next door was the wonderful Riviera [Hotel] with Shecky Greene appearing nightly. And so I lived there. Found a lovely maid that took care of the cat during the day—we could do things like that then. What was it that you did for Broadway? 3 Well, I came up as their training director. I'd been training director for several Broadway stores at the time. And also which included being their fashion coordinator, so before we hired Colleen Schroeder—and there were two before her—I was doing it as well as the training. So I got to do the opening fashion shows. We did one at the Tropicana with Sam Butera playing. A fundraiser for St. Anne's [Catholic] School. We did some wonderful fashion shows. I had some fun. So anyhow I came up here as training director. I had already owned a dress shop and done some interior design in California. Actually, in California I had more of a career than I've had here. How long had you been in California before you came here1 I guess about eight years, but, I mean, they were young, busy years. I did lots there. Were you familiar with Las Vegas before? Never had been here before. Yeah. But I'd heard a lot about it. I worked as head of the Social and Cultural Department for LA County Parks and Recreation, Theatre Arts Division, so I produced and directed plays. Shakespeare Festival Players. Your background was in the arts, then? Always in the arts, yeah. Design arts, theatre, set design, radio. But I was in radio when I was eight years old. Eight? Um, hm. In Boston. As what? [sings] Cream of Wheat is so good to eat... .! The Little Bear Club. Were you the star or just part of it! 4 Part of it. What kind of opportunities did you find in Las Vegas when you first got here to express this arts background that you'd worked so hard at in Los Angeles? None! I applied at the City of Las Vegas and [Clark] County to conduct children's theatre [for ] free. Free or paid something, you know, like after work or Saturdays or something like that. I applied and they said, well, I'd have to take the test. They wouldn't just take my services like later the Community College did and that kind of thing. But, no, they had to do all this stuff. Anyhow, they gave me a test that was like how many square feet on a basketball court and how many ping pong balls to play the game and how do you repair racquets for the tennis courts. Basketball, ping pong, tennis, swimming—all these stupid questions! They weren't stupid if you were in an athletic department, but I'm not. I was social/cultural which they didn't know. They didn't have a department called Social/Cultural. And then I said, "Well, how about Theatre Arts? They called me a Theatre Arts Specialist in Los Angeles." No, they didn't have that. And I said, "Well, I just want to .. . I've got about 50 children's plays here, some of which I have written or people I've worked with have written. Including Shakespeare. I have a children's version of A Midsummer Night's Dream that would be just adorable to do." And I think I had a children's As You Like It, I'm not sure. Little children. Anyway, long story short, I took the test, I flunked it, they didn't want me. And that was the end of my endeavors because I was busy with the Broadway, I was busy with Focus. Just about then I got so involved with Focus Youth Services for runaway and troubled children in the [19]60s and '70s. I already had a friendship with Flora Dungan—Humanities Building [at UNLV] now.4 Eileen Brookman, still see her all the time. And Edith Katz and Leola Armstrong. All of whom I'd met in the legislature in '61 when I was doing some other stuff in Nevada [but] living in Los Angeles. And so I knew them when I got here. Matter of fact, my first day in town ... . The night the Broadway had its grand opening was also the same night that Leola Armstrong had her big party for Grant Sawyer running for governor. It was October something. The election was to be in November a few days later. And everybody I still know and love were there. Everybody was there. Everybody that's still important but they're old now, was there. Anyhow, so that's how I got to Las Vegas. And that's how I had instant acceptance in the political community. Juice? Well, we didn't call it that and I worked my fingers to the bone, so I'm not sure if it was juice in terms of I didn't run around getting comps and going to shows and that kind of thing. In that respect it wasn't [juice]. I was involved with Focus. I got very involved with Focus's program working there on a daily basis, in other words, doing group things with the kids and stuff like that. Is Focus an acronym? No. Focus. It was like focusing on the problems of the young people. In the '60s and '70s the problems of the young people—run-away, throw-away kids, kids with no alternatives. Matter of fact we called them Throw-Away Kids With No Alternatives. That was one of our grants. There weren't many grants around. There were no terms like grantsmanship and so forth. But there was some grant money for kids. So it was a youth hostel, actually. Was that a problem in Las Vegas to the degree it is today? Has it always been? Today the problems are so different. There's no need for a Focus. There's need for other things. Our kids were messed up with marijuana and stuff but mainly it's because they had no place to go. They were living on the streets. Hippie-ish style and so forth. Some of 'em had homes and families here but they were out of control kids and so forth. But these were kids that were really searching for something positive. Not kids that were searching to hold up the Valley Bank. What was it that Focus provided them1 Focus was modeled after Synanon.5 And the founder ... . Well, Flora Dungan was probably the founder, but the founder, Ray ben David, was a Synanon person. And he married Flora Dungan and they started the program and they started with games. Synanon did games and Focus started with games in Flora Dungan's living room. And people like Herman Van Betten. I could name people all over town— Darlene and [John] Unrue. They came once in awhile. Ron Jack—he's left town now. Who was on the board? Well, my today best friend Steve Evans, Judge Evans over at the State he doesn't go by Judge, but anyhow, he's administrative law judge for the state—he was one of our kid counselors. I still see him. And Leola Armstrong and Bryn [Armstrong]. Bryn was on the board. Edith Katz was very, very involved. Moreso not working with the kids, so much, as helping find the money and helping find the house that we opened. Was it a halfway house? No, nobody lived there. Well, we did have kids live there sometimes. We did. The runaways lived there short term until we could arrange to get 'em either back home or somewhere [else]. We knew more than the authorities did ... . At that time, most kids that ran away, and perhaps today, too, should have. Running away from incest, running away from worse situations than they found down on the street. Now, there will be people that differ with me, but I'm telling you frequently when young people run away that's the right decision. They made a better decision than whoever was at home. Was Focus founded while you were here or was it going before you got here? I think the games in Flora's living room were going when I got here. But, of course, I'd been involved with Synanon in Los Angeles. That's how I met all these people. What, then, did you do specifically for Focus7 Everything from looking for a house with Edith [Katz] and getting the Petersens to fund it to running games with the kids. There is no game director. Participating in games [is] a free for all. It's group therapy without a leader. What sort of games1 That's what a game is— group therapy without a leader. It's usually attack therapy. It's attack therapy. What does that mean? [moves closer] "Where the hell have you been? You're late every single time. Look at yourself! Do you realize that you're never on time, ever? That you have no sense of responsibility, ever?" And it's overdone. To the point where ... . I'm being very polite. But overdone and usually about subjects way deeper than whether or not you're late or something. And you have to defend yourself. How successful were you in turning kids around? Very. Better than anything I've ever seen before or since. I believe in the Focus concept of opening people's eyes with the truth. Then it's followed immediately by love. In those days loving and hugging and the circle of love [gestures an embrace] and all that. Yeah, you don't drop somebody in the toilet and then leave them there. You pull them up and help them in the right direction. Help them to see themselves. Was Focus an organization particular to Las Vegas or was it a national program? Oh, no. It was particular to [Las Vegas]. But Synanon became somewhat national and other programs ... . Chuck Dietrich was the founder of all such programs. There are people in AA [Alcoholics Anonymous] who will differ because AA was already started and he had been with AA. AA is a totally different program and it's wonderful for those people who need it and go to it and so forth. But the concept of Synanon and then Focus was based on a different concept. Harder. Deeper. Most of those other programs you talk about yourself and you spill your own things, but nobody can attack you for lying about it. This ... . It was our duty to attack them. Call them a liar even if they weren't and see how you do, how you hold up. Strong. It developed strong, strong ... . To this day, many of us ... . A youngster came into town not long ago to visit Steve [Evans] and Steve said, "Kerin lives up on the hill." "Oh! I gotta go see her!" You know. And I was one of the old ladies. Great kinship. Of course, many organizations develop great kinship. Strength of character. But mostly guidance in showing people a way to live their lives without the crutches. And self-esteem, I I 8 suppose. And there's all kinds of ways. 1 wouldn't put down anybody else's way, but that was the Focus way and it was very successful. How long did Focus last? Well, until the era of that kind of problems was over. So I would say the '60s through the '70s. Now, the board even existed into the '80s. Matter of fact, Renee Diamond and Myrna Williams still.... There's still a board and they're still on it. Edith Katz dropped off, Earl White, Zack Taylor died. Mahlon Brown. We all dropped off. But they've still got hundreds of thousands of dollars of Focus money that they won't give up to some organization. Is it just sitting in a bank? Yeah. And up to this day I don't know why Myrna Williams is not willing to part with that money unless she's waiting to grandstand it. Is it still called Focus? Well, the board is but there's no organization. There's no house. It's just money in an account that needs to be given to someone. You were also deeply involved in the politics of southern Nevada. You'd worked on Jimmy Carter's campaign and Mike O'Callaghan's campaign. Oh, yeah. Well, that was much later. Flora [Dungan] and Leola [Armstrong] forced me into politics. How? Well, first of all I met them in politics because I was lobbying for Synanon in the [Nevada] legislature in '61 when I met them all. And 1 ran a successful lobby for a young person so they were relatively impressed. I was in the newspapers up there, Gazette, or whatever it was, several times. So they already perceived [my political talents] and they knew I had been in radio and television in Boston and Seattle. So they knew a little bit about me and I owned a dress shop, I ran theatre. So they knew I was a get-something-done kind of person. What did Queen Anne say? "The lady who fixes things and makes things happen." So, I suppose that's what they thought, that I was somebody who fixes things and makes things happen. Amongst others. There were others, too. At any rate. So in the '70s my political activities were lobbying and going to city hall and all that for Focus. And then Flora ran for the [University] Board of Regents. And I was her campaign manager. Well, I took it seriously. She kind of made me that title. She really meant campaign flunky. However, I took it seriously, got her elected. I talked to her and I said, "We're gonna do this campaign on our bicycles." "No, don't be silly." I said, "For the University Board of Regents, the Candidate On a Bicycle? Fabulousl" I said sure it wouldn't work for the assembly or the other things—she had already served in the assembly and so forth. But for the Board of Regents in a town where you can ride a bicycle to the university? [smiles, laughs] Regent On a Bike—and did very well. And it was during the time that she was on the Board [of Regents] that she was diagnosed with cancer. And I was with her through that as were many. When she went down to California to stay in a nearby hotel to the Century City Medical Center which at the time was the only nuclear medicine that was being done nearby, I went down and I lived with her down there during [her treatments]. She'd say some funny things. We'd be driving to her treatments and she'd say, "Boy, what an interesting experience this cancer is. Just the most interesting. Look at all the equipment, so fascinating— but who needs it?!" [laughs] And then, of course, Flora passed away and her term wasn't up and I ran for the unexpired term. I beat five men in the primary: Cantor Cohen, Larry Luna ... . Oh, a gumshoe, I forget his name. What was your platform? Well, it was really Flora's platform, except I had a couple of ideas of my own. I wanted a law library. And I wanted a 24-hour school that was a 24-hour school in a 24-hour town. Now, in those days we claimed to be a 24-hour town and sort of were. We're not anymore, let's face it. You can't go out for steak and lobster and go dancing and leave the house at midnight anymore. But we did. We did. Leaving at midnight was a typical time to go out on the town. We'd have dinner, go dancing, da-da, get home at four in the morning. This was true. And I felt that those rooms [at UNLV]... . We paid the heat, we paid the rent, we paid the water—have some late-night classes for the working people. I don't mean six o'clock at night. I mean classes that start at nine and get over at eleven-thirty or so. And, see, we didn't have fear of walking around campus. People weren't getting raped and mugged all over the place. The crimes were different crimes. They were hippie crimes. They were marijuana crimes, but not speed and acid crimes. People weren't killing each other. We still kept our doors open or we forgot to lock them. Right up through about 1980. Were you involved still with the Boulevard [Department Store] all through all this time? All through that time, no. I left the Broadway in 1972 and went to Larwin Homes which is Tiburon and Montara Estates and I was the designer for them. I designed the interiors. First I did the models and the interiors. Anyhow, I did that. Made good money and I was married at the time to Paolo Scianna. He showed no interest in my activities and no more needs to be said on that. But I was married when I bought this house [1500 S. Seventh Street]. [laughs] I had a big check coming from Larwin, a $9,000 commission check. It was late, it was late, it was late. Now, I owned an apartment house that I had already when I married Paolo down in Huntridge, one of those triplexes. Was Paolo a second marriage for you? Yes. When was it then, that you first became involved in opening [Gipsy]?6 I never became involved in it! I didn't know it existed! What is the story about it? Well, OK. Moving right along, let me just move fast here, [ponders] The house. Larwin. OK, well then. So I had this $9,000 check and the deposit on this house was $10,000. This house wasn't for sale but I wanted it and we found it on our bicycles. One thing Paolo and I and Flora did together, we rode our bicycles all over this neighborhood all the time. I just sold my Schwinn bicycle, same bike, at a garage sale last week for $40. I loved that bike but now with my back and all, I figured well .... Rut anyhow, the house. Larwin. Flora had died by now. Board of Regents was over. By now I'm president of the Clark County Democratic Women's Club. And then Harriet Trudell wanted to leave [the] governor's office—this was '76 or so [1979-81]—to go to work for Harry Reid and she told [the] governor to hire me. Well, that was OK with him. But they sent Chris Schaller.7 You don't know the name, but I'm telling you Chris Schaller worked for Grant Sawyer. He worked for every governor back before Grant Sawyer as their press. He was the brains behind all the governors. Chris Schaller. A very famous name in inside circles. But he drank and he smoked and he had bad habits. But he was brilliant and they kind of kept him quiet. Just stay there and be brilliant. Well, anyhow, he came in to do the final interview with me for the governor's office. I picked him up in my then new Volvo and I put Mozart in the tape recorder, you know, put one of my Mozart tapes in and I'm waitin' outside [the airport]. And he comes out—he told me not to go to the gate—'course, it was called McCarran then and it was just one fell swoop across here. I knew it was him right away [because] he looked like a governor s aide. Gets in the car and we're driving down to the state building which became my office and he said, "You know why I'm here?" [mimics a loud, gruff voice] And I said. "Well, yes, I know I'm being considered for the administrative assistant job in the governor's office." "Knock off the crapl" he says to me. Now, he knows I'm a friend of Harriet's and probably figures I don't get ruffled that easily, but I'm from Boston, so I do. So, Knock off the crap! You got the job. I just want to know how much of a pain in the neck you're gonna be." I said, "Well, probably some." He said, "Well, I guess anybody that plays Mozart in a Volvo can't be all bad. When do ya start?" That was it! From Harriet to governor, from governor, Chris, from a Volvo ride to the office. By the time we got to the office it was my office. What was your title? Special Assistant to the governor. That sounds like ... . It s an appointed job instead of hired, so that's why you're special. Because if they call you administrative assistant, of which there really isn't, then it's a state job and you have to kind of answer to the state before the governor. You serve at the pleasure of the governor. Which wasn't always a pleasure, but ... . Wonderful stories. I could go on and on and on! If Gayle Wiener were here—she was my secretary and she's still my dear friend—if she were here right now ... . Oh, even better! A few weeks ago Harriet Trudell was in town and Myram Borders came over and the three of us sat on the back porch—I served a nice breakfast, one of my gorgeous breakfasts and the three of us sat there from nine in the morning till three in the afternoon telling stories to each other and reminding each other of stories. Of course, we had to keep jumping in because we all knew the same stories. But still, you all have your different perspective[s] on a story. Plus Myram and I were keeping Harriet up to date with some things going on with the [Las Vegas city] council and Steve Wynn and Yvonne [Atkinson] Gates and Myrna Williams and the people who aren't who they used to be ... . We know what we mean. And then I always have [Ralph] Denton stories because I'm close with a different circle. Jim Shetakis is my close friend and his attorney is Ralph Denton. But Ralph Denton was my attorney forever, too. So we always feel comfortable in shooting the breeze so to speak. And nobody shoots the breeze quite like Ralph Denton. There is no story teller better than Ralph, at least, politically. A lot of 'em are good, but he's good. He's good! And that voice. Not afraid to kind of ruffle a few feathers but not a mean bone in his body, none of it mean. But certainly not sugar-coated. Doesn't sugar-coat anything. I'm told I tend to, but if so, it's just who I am. I don't set out to do so. I don't know. I just got read the riot act last night: "Who do you think you are? Mother Superior?" I said, "Well, it's just the way I feel." I guess it goes like this. If you decide to help somebody then you're not supposed to complain about it. Well, that isn't the way it really is. You do decide to help 'em and you do it, but you wanna complain. Just because you're doing it and just because you think you should be doing it doesn't mean you enjoy doing it. » 13 The governor that you were hired by was O'Callaghah? Um, hm. Did you just work for O'Callaghan or did you make the switch over to [Governor Robert List]! Oh, no, never switched. Now, however, while I was in that office I was appointed to the Kennedy Center of the Performing Arts. Appointed as what1 A White House Commissioner by the President of the United States. There were only three White House Commissioners from the state of Nevada serving in any capacity. Mahlon Brown was appointed by President Carter to serve as Federal Attorney. Ruby Duncan was appointed as a commissioner representative to Russia for some special kind of White House ambassadory kind of thing. Not ambassador, but ... . Anyhow. But hers was a commission. And I was appointed as a commissioner for the performing arts. What did your job as a commissioner involve? Well, it was on the Kennedy Center so my meetings and everything I did were at the Kennedy Center. You had to fly back there [to Washington D. C.]? Well, of course! And people like Roger Stevens was chairman of the board. Eunice Shriver was involved. Paul Simon—not this Paul Simon [the singer] but this Paul Simon [gestures wearing a bow tie]. Wonderful, wonderful [man]. Really had his finger on the pulse of the people in the arts. Then there was a kid, I forget his name, from Idaho. He was another one from the western states. And he and I and some of the others got together and we decided we were gonna be rebels on this committee because at that time the Kennedy Center was just for people in Washington. Now, here's a national theatre. It's our only national theatre. People think the Ford Theatre is the national theatre. It was a state theatre at one time back in Lincoln's day, but the Kennedy Center's the national theatre. And my speech with the help of four or five other rebels that helped me off the ground was that the Kennedy Center is viewed by Americans as a marvelous place for rich Washingtonians to go to the theatre. Period. And I said, you know, until we bring the Kennedy Center to the communities with the black theatre, with the college festival theatre, with the handicapped theatre—which we sent our young [Brian] Strom there to do the handicapped presentation. Anyhow, we got it on and through our efforts—I didn't start the efforts but I participated in the activity that through our efforts we were able to bring the Kennedy Center to the states rather than expect you to go to the Kennedy Center when you're in Washington. You know, I suppose at one time in the history of this country every American was expected at some time or another to go to Washington and visit. And we did, those of us in the East. You know, part of a school trip when I was a child in Boston was to go to Washington and see the White House. But that doesn't happen with the people west of Chicago. Doesn't happen. Or south of St. Louis. Or Cleveland, you know. I'm not sure those kind of field trips are happening at all. From New Jersey, I don't know, because of all the problems with insurance and everything now. You can't take a kid across the street without somebody getting sued. Or without somebody getting accused of sexual harassment... . You know. Who wants to do anything with kids? Not me. I wouldn't take a group of kids on a trip of any kind. I'd figure my life was over. But we used to not have those kinds of problems. Anyhow. So the Kennedy Center was an enormously interesting project. And all this time I had my show on Channel 5. What show was that? The People Speak. Through all of this I had my show. And through all of this I had my interior design firm. 8 From the day I left Larwin I started with Carl Thomas^ decorating the Bingo Palace 10 and then the Aladdin gift stores and in the Meadows Mall when they built that and private homes of Senator [Bill] Hernstadt, Carl Thomas. Bill Hernstadt owned Channel 5. Yeah. So I had my government things, my interior design things, my political things— which are different than my government things—and my television stuff. Is that overextending a little bit? It wasn't at the time. I did them all. Oh! And all that time nationally I was the chairman of the delegate selection rules for the state of Nevada Democratic Party. And that's when Terry Sanford, Barbara McCloskey and all these important people were doing this thing called The Common Thread which was a way of getting all the delegate selection rules for all the states to be uniform. And the way we select our president and our delegates and all that to conventions, more or less uniform even though the laws and rules in each state were different. So our job was to take our existing laws and all that and write delegate selection rules. For instance—I won't go into detail, [it's] very complicated to the point that even today people call me how to run a precinct meeting from Washington and places. Grant [Sawyer] used to call me [and ask], "Now what do you do, how do you divide up this ... ?" I said, "Well, this is it. You elect three people from the small counties, three people from Reno, and three people from Las Vegas and then after the primary vote for the president gets in the top vote-getters from each area are the ones that will represent... You know. And I had a formula. I won't go into detail, there's no reason to. It was kind of complicated, but it worked. And I remember that Democratic convention, there were about 500 people, we were in Elko, and I was explaining the delegate [selection process] ... . And everybody was sure everybody else was out to screw them out of getting to be delegate and I said, "Look. Please listen and trust me." And they did! Of course, that's before trust me became such a ... . It has different connotations now. [laughs] Yeah! At any rate, so [I] did the delegate selection rules [in] '76. '78 the Kennedy Center. '79, ran the [Jimmy] Carter campaign for the state of Nevada. Oh, before that in '79 [I] ran the fundraiser for the United States Olympic Committee for the Olympics that never happened because Carter canceled the Olympics in Russia. Every garage sale I throw away posters that say Olympics 1980 Russia. Moscow. It may be collector s items but I don't care. They're gone. You can't keep everything from everything. So early '79 was the Olympics Committee and then later was the Carter campaign. And I was packed up and ready to move to Washington D. C. with Carter. I had no idea anybody in their right mind would ever vote for Ronald Reagan.11 1 still don't believe it. Me, too! So, anyhow, Carter didn't win. We did do a hell of a job. We brought the rate from 17% projection to 37% of the vote in the state of Nevada due to a wonderful campaign we had for Carter. We did a good job but not good enough and Carter lost and that was a sad thing for the country and still is. But couple of days after that, I'm down in the dumps, after I sobered up. Went with Zack [Taylor] and Frank [Shreck] and so forth that night up to Reno for dinner on the private plane, but I was smashed by the time I got there. Champagne. Just depression, you know, and so forth. So I came home and who's at my front door like two days later—still November, so it's not December yet, it's still November something—but Marge Jacques. 12 Now, had you known her before? Well, I didn't know that I did but I had. Marge Jacques' mother was Flora Dungan's seamstress. And Edith Katz's seamstress. And some of the ladies around. She did nice sewing. They lived over here on Thirteenth and Bonanza. Or maybe Fourteenth. But over there in those small, not pretentious houses. They were from Quebec, Ontario, something like this, the Jacques family. And they had this daughter, Marge, who was there once in awhile when I'd go over. Well, she knew all about me. I didn't really know I knew her. She acted like she knew me— but she had a mission. A mission? God, did she have a mission! I was her old best friend and I fell for it. I'm down in the dumps and all. "Kerin! God, you've meant so much to the community!" Oh, God, she was good. Good! She was good. Anyhow, she had this bar called the Village Station. 13 Now, she had already closed ... . The Black Magic had already become the Le Cafe14 and had already been closed. And now she's at the Village Station and George Adamian owns the property and Marge ran the Village Station. She owned nothing but she called herself the owner for George because George was from California