Interview with James Ogle, April 6, 2005

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with James Ogle April 6, 2005 Albuquerque, New Mexico Interview Conducted By Mary Palevsky © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with James Ogle April 6, 2005 Conducted by Mary Palevsky Table of Contents Introduction: William Ogle— birth San Pedro, CA ( 1917), family background, early education, raised in Las Vegas, NV, marriage, education at UNR and University of Illinois 1 Moves to Los Alamos, NM to work as experimental physicist on Manhattan Project ( 1945) 3 Ogle family life: marriage and children, integration of family life with work on testing in the Pacific and at the NTS 4 Participation in Limited Test Ban Treaty negotiations in Geneva ( 1963) 6 Reminisces about William Ogle’s love of technical work and his ability to work with people 7 Travels with family throughout Southwest to Nevada, and move to Las Vegas, NV ( ca. 1953) 8 James Ogle’s impressions of atmospheric test observed from Mt. Charleston, NV 9 William Ogle’s feelings about nuclear weapons and James Ogle’s thoughts on same 10 William Ogle’s work with J- Division, LANL during moratorium 12 William Ogle’s relationship with Alvin Graves, Harold Agnew, and Norris Bradbury, and his retirement ( 1972) 13 Moves to Alaska after retirement, starts own consulting company, was science advisor to governor of Alaska, got involved in geothermal energy, worked as consultant to DOE and DoD, chaired TEP [?] in Nevada, advisor to JCS 15 Life in Alaska ( 1972- 84): second marriage, continued working, enjoyed outdoors 17 Writes An Account of the Return to Nuclear Weapons Testing by the United States after the Test Moratorium ( published 1985) with Robert Brownlee, Milton Peek, and Don Westervelt 18 Conclusion: James Ogle— service with Peace Corps in Botswana, marriage ( 1971), William Ogle’s acceptance of son’s interracial marriage as example of “ what an amazing man he was” 19 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with James Ogle April 6, 2005 in Albuquerque, NM Conducted by Mary Palevsky [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Mary Palevsky: Thanks for meeting with me today, Jim Ogle. I wanted to take some time to talk about your father, William Ogle, and his history before we get into your work in testing at the NTS [ Nevada Test Site]. So if you could give me some family history that would be wonderful. James Ogle: He was born August 31, 1917 in San Pedro, California. I don’t know very much of his early time there. His father was a railroad engineer, worked on the railroad there. I know in his very early years, when he was in first grade, second grade, somewhere in that time frame, they moved to Kelso, California. Where is that? Kelso, California is a little train stop between Los Angeles and Las Vegas. It’s about halfway in between Barstow and Needles. There’s some road that you take and it’s about forty miles off the main highway. And I remember him talking about his early education, being in a one- room schoolhouse in this place. And one of our trips when I was a child, we drove through there just so we could see the place. And I said his father was an engineer on Southern Pacific [ Railroad]. And when they started Boulder Dam, his father went to work as an engineer, taking supplies to Boulder Dam. And it was in that time frame that they moved to Las Vegas. I can’t give you exact dates on this because I don’t really know. It’s all right. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 So he moved to Las Vegas, and that’s where he really did most of his growing up. At that time, it sounds to me like Las Vegas was itself just a few buildings. The house that he was raised in is now just about the middle of a freeway, close to the Spaghetti Bowl there. It was Fifth Street, and as I remember, about six or seven blocks north of Fremont [ Street]. That’s where he was raised. That’s also where he met my mother. Her parents were Dutch, had emigrated from Holland; he was a baker and had a bakery on Second Street. I think it was Second Street, First or Second Street. And they lived at that time outside of town. Well, that “ outside of town” is now just about the corner of South Main Street and Charleston [ Boulevard]. And they told stories about the two- mile hike to go see her and that sort of thing during the high school days and that. Now your mother’s background is Dutch. What was your father’s family background? Were they immigrants or—? My grandfather actually ran away from home at the age of twelve, I believe it was, twelve or thirteen. And this was in Ohio. The name Ogle is actually Scottish, Scottish background. But as we understand the story, his parents died and there were three children, and the relatives split the children. I believe he was the oldest and didn’t like the idea of the children being split, didn’t like the relative he was living with and what was going on. His story is much like sort of Huckleberry Finn. He ran away from home. He floated down the Ohio River, Mississippi, finally got off in St. Louis [ Missouri], caught the [ 00: 05: 00] railroad west, and at the age of sixteen or seventeen, somewhere in there, lied about his age was, joined the Marines, and went off, saw the world, came back eventually, found my grandmother. I’m not quite sure where. He used to tell stories about finding her tied to a telephone pole as he was the engineer on the railroad. How he saved her. She got quite upset about that. But she was from Las Cruces [ New Mexico], turns out, and UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 Spanish ancestry and also some Yaqui Indian. So— OK. Well, let me go back to Las Vegas and my father and mother. I think what’s important is they were high school sweethearts. My father, after graduating from high school, went to the University of Nevada in Reno. And it was after the first year at university that him and my mother got married. Don’t know that for a fact, but close to it. He went off, finished his university work. I believe he was in a fraternity. I couldn’t tell you which one. One of his loves then was tennis also. What was he studying at the university? I believe it was physics. He graduated from the University of Nevada in Reno. He got accepted at the University of Illinois for his graduate work. Him and my mother drove across country, apparently, in a Model T or something of that sort. And he did his graduate work there in physics. It was towards the— I’ve got to go back and think about times. He must have gotten his degree just about the time that the war was breaking out or something, the Second World War. And I know somewhere during that time frame, he had commented about how he wanted to go off and join the Navy, and wanted to be a PT boat captain. The Navy wouldn’t let him join and felt that the education was more important and what he was working in and where he was working at the university and the science he was working on. So when he graduated from there, which must have been like December of ’ 44, he got pulled into the Los Alamos [ Manhattan Project] thing. And I don’t know what happened, how that happened, anything else. But I think he came to Los Alamos about January or February of ’ 45. And he came before my mother did. My mother came somewhere in there. And as I say, I don’t know when, because I was born at the end of ’ 45, and I was born in Los Alamos. OK, so that sort of gets us to Los Alamos. He was an experimental physicist, and a lot of what he worked on in the early days, I really could not tell you very much about. I did find a UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 reference in I think it was one of Rhodes’ books or something to working with Hans Bethe. [ 00: 10: 00] And I actually had a chance to talk to Hans Bethe at one time about this. He said yes, he had worked with him, and some stuff. But you know there were all kinds of people like Hans Bethe around at that time. So anyway, I was born in ’ 45 and was the second of five children, the first one being my brother Bill who was born— I always get it wrong. I think it was ’ 41 or ’ 40. April of ’ 41. May’ve been ’ 42. So he was born in Illinois. Let me quickly go through the children. Sure, please do. Then there was my sister Jean. All these children were born in Los Alamos. Jean was born in ’ 48. And then a brother Mark in ’ 52. And then a sister Mona in ’ 58. So five children. I think an interesting difference between then and now is the philosophy on how people raise families, or women working versus not working and that. And my father, I think, felt strongly, and made enough money at that time, that my mother didn’t have to work, so she spent her life raising the children. Father, being involved in nuclear weapons, was gone a lot. I remember later on in life him telling me once that he had seen all the atmospheric nuclear weapons tests, actually all the nuclear weapons tests, I think, up through like ’ 72 when he retired from the Los Alamos. So Pacific tests and Nevada tests? Pacific tests as well as Nevada tests. Which really meant that he was gone maybe nine months out of the year, especially when they were doing the Pacific tests. And it wasn’t— you know, people think people being gone that long, he was gone two, three months at a time— unlike now where you can go somewhere for the weekdays and come back for a weekend. So it was quite different. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 Interesting thing, and I want to be sure it comes out about him, although he was gone all this time— I still get emotional thinking about it. When he was home, he was a real father. What [ the point] I really wanted to make was that when he was at home, as far as those children were concerned, we didn���t see him ever really spending his time worrying about work and going off and working on weekends, that sort of thing. The weekends were largely focused on us. And that made it so all the months he was gone, you don’t hardly think about them. And he had a good wife to raise us. Let me give you a slight exception to that, a place where he included us and some of it is work, it must’ve been in the mid- to- late- fifties. There was a lot of discussion about how to use nuclear weapons in ways other than just testing. And one of the concepts that [ 00: 15: 00] people thought of was using nuclear weapons to power rockets. You know, you’d throw a rocket out the rear end, fire it, and the propulsion would push it one direction. Well, he wanted to do some things to look into that sort of thing. Actually, sorry, getting things mixed up. It was the Plowshare stuff that this particular thing was part of, and how to use nuclear weapons to create canals and that sort of thing, Sedan crater being an example. And he went off and talked to the Forestry Department and got them to supply him with a whole bunch of M- 80s, fireworks. And we set them around and we built up mounds of dirt and this sort of thing and put these M- 80s down in there, and he put them down in there, and fire these things to see what would happen with the earth. Well, little did we know that that was sort of some of his early thinking towards things like Sedan crater. Then once we had all these M- 80s, we also really used them at Fourth of July, unlike today. You can’t go out and do that sort of thing So that was the mid- fifties. Let me try to go back. I can’t tell you really very much, I don’t think, about the early days in Los Alamos, since I was just a little baby myself. I can tell UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 you that the first place we lived in Los Alamos, and I don’t remember, I think was close to the community center out in some of the homes that were just put up at that time for scientists. First place I remember living was in the western area, up on the top of Trinity and that. And going to school down at Mesa School, which is now the University of New Mexico, Los Alamos. When I was about a year or two old, we moved from there to Arizona, and that’s when the northern community was just being developed. And lived up on Arizona, a two- story house which got burned down during the Sierra Grande fire, till about ’ 58— sorry, no, we lived there till ’ 63. We bought our place down in El Rancho [ New Mexico] in ’ 58, out in the country, that’s where my father wanted to be. He liked the country. And during those five years from ’ 58 to ’ 63, we built our house down there, my mother’s house. And those also happened to be the years that my brother and I were in high school. And with all my father’s travel, he was good enough at organizing things, he’d tell us what to do and he’d show us when he was home on weekends, and largely left the building of that house to my brother and I. Oh, my grandfather also came in at that time. He was still alive. So anyway, we moved down there, down to El Rancho, in ’ 63. Let me go back and talk some about what my father was doing in that time, because during that time, there was also the negotiations for the— oh, what was it? I think it was the Threshold Test Ban Treaty at that time. Or the Limited Test Ban Treaty? Sixty- three. Limited Test Ban Treaty. Yes, that’s what it was. And he went off and participated in those [ 00: 20: 00] negotiations in Geneva. The years that he did that are foggy to me right now. Well, we can look that up. But he must have spent close to a year doing that. And during that time, he took my mother to Geneva, which was nice, for a month or two also, and traveled around. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 Did you have a sense of having so much of his work being the scientific work, if he enjoyed that aspect of it? I mean he must be a technical advisor of some kind at that point. Yes. But do you have any sense of whether he liked that or—? Any sense of what? If that was interesting work for him or—? I’ll tell you why I’m asking— Yes. Go ahead. Well, I think all the technical work was of interest to him. In fact, maybe an interesting point to bring out is I think he found just about everything interesting. He was an avid reader. I was just absolutely amazed, he built our house. In the back of our house, there’s a room that about twenty feet wide and forty feet long, and one whole wall of that is nothing but books. And those books have been there, basically, since about that time. This is the house your mom still lives in? Yes. And what I always found amazing was he had read just about all those books. And so he was very well read on physics, but also you could talk to him about biology, heart— he had heart problems later on in life. He went off and learned all the technical things about heart issues. The world itself. Religions. Just a whole gamut of things. So he just found life interesting, and the people he���d met interesting, which I found to be quite amazing. And he said that at one time he’d started to sit down and read the encyclopedia. Now I don’t know how far he really got through it. He was that kind of person. And I think what really moved him up to where he finally ended up, not just test director but the J- Division leader, was his ability to work with people. And I remember [ when] he passed UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 away, in one of the memorial services, someone coming up and talking to me and saying one thing about him was they had never heard him say a bad word about anybody. And it was just in that time frame that I was starting to get into Los Alamos, actually working, doing technical work there. What I found interesting is that around Los Alamos ever since then also, I have never found anybody that had anything bad to say about him, which I think is really unusual and somewhat remarkable. It is. Yes. That’s the way I found him, as a child. So I think it was that ability to understand people and communicate with people and somehow figure out how to pull the best out of people that really moved him up there, along with the technical understanding of what was going on. Because I remember him telling me at one time that he just sort of saw these bombs going off in his head, [ 00: 25: 00] he had such a physical understanding of how they worked and that. And so seeing that going off and being able to picture what needed to be done and then being able to work to give the resources to others to get that work done is what really made it so. J- Division at one time was quite an exceptional organization at that time. Well, I just want to make a comment here. What’s so interesting because, I would imagine, that in order to be directing that whole division, you have to have a really very broad technical understanding of how to make all those pieces come together. Yes. Let me go back a little bit in time to when they were doing some of the atmospheric tests in Nevada. It’s just to give you a flavor for him. One of the vehicles that he bought, I think it must have been in the mid- to- late- forties, was a 1941 weapons carrier, which is like a pickup truck except for it’s military. Bumpers were big steel I- beams, that sort of thing. I heard my mother talk about how when he bought that, I guess we were in the western area, he overhauled the UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 engine in it. Took the engine out, put it in their bedroom, and overhauled the engine. And so he liked working on cars, did a lot of that. What I was getting at was, somewhere in there when I think my brother Bill was maybe thirteen or fourteen years old, Father had to go out to Nevada for an operation. And with my grandparents living out there, there’d be a place for us to stay when we went out there, so we made many trips back and forth. But this was the beginning of the summer and he decided to take my brother. And I remember the two of them packing up this old weapons carrier and they took off and took it up by Mexican Hat, which at that time was nothing but dirt roads; basically through the Navajo Indian Reservation and across the northern part of the Colorado River, and so the northern Grand Canyon area and that. And spent close to a week, I think, getting from Los Alamos to Las Vegas on all these back roads. And largely partly to give my brother that experience of seeing all these things in that time frame. He also moved us out to Las Vegas, and my memory is that must’ve been around ’ 53 because I was in third grade. I ended up going to school with one of his old elementary school teachers. But it was during that time frame that they were going to do an atmospheric shot in Frenchman Flat, and he told us about it and suggested we go up to Mount Charleston. And so [ 00: 30: 00] we went up to Mount Charleston and watched this atmospheric test. And at that time everything was announced anyway. And it was really quite interesting hearing the, being able to see the flash and later on feel the shock wave come by, hear it. But he wanted us to see those sorts of things. Well, as a little guy, what’s your impression of it? Oh, I thought it was pretty awesome. I was eight years old at the time. No real feeling about whether these things are good or bad. It was just an amazing thing to see. And now in retrospect, UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 after experiencing higher yield underground shots and seeing the shots from the Pacific, or pictures of them, you become somewhat awestruck at the power of nuclear weapons, and it’s something to be really respected. And actually that’s another thing that should probably come out in here somewhere, is the feeling of my father towards nuclear weapons. And his comment to me at one time was like I think you hear many others that work in this field, is that if the nuclear weapons ever have to really be used again, then we’ve failed. That they really are there to preserve peace, not to be used in war. And I don’t want to go into big dialogue about that, but he really felt that that was the purpose for working on them and developing them, understanding them, so you had that edge all the time and you would maintain the peace through deterrence. I think that whole thing is being lost in most of the public in the United States— nuclear weapons have been around so long. But I don’t want to get into my personal feelings. Well, no, I’d love to hear your personal feelings on it. Maybe you don’t want to do it right now, but do explain to me what you mean by “ that’s being lost.” The respect is being lost or—? I need to understand what you mean by that. I think nuclear weapons have been around long enough and the testing was being done underground so people didn’t really see them, and so much discussion about them, that the newer generations are looking at nuclear weapons as something that we should not have. Oh, I see what you’re saying. And all the drive to try to put the nuclear weapon technology back in the bottle. You see nonproliferation, I think that’s great, nonproliferation. But the thought of being able to believe you can really get rid of all nuclear weapons, I don’t think people have really thought that through. And I think there’s a very interesting graph that I’ve seen that has the number of people UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 that have been killed in wars during the twentieth century. And you look at how many were killed before nuclear weapons were developed and how many were killed afterwards, and it’s an amazing difference. After that, it’s just sort of deadened the noise. Which I think says that they have done what they’re supposed to do. And if you get rid of nuclear weapons, then it says you can go back to mass destruction. As I said, I don’t think people thought it through. So that’s my personal— No, I like to hear those views. That’s one of the valuable things about this kind of [ 00: 35: 00] work, too, is you get thoughtful people’s well- thought- out views on things. Why do you think that is? I think it’s a couple things. One is we do not have a public that is educated on just radiation issues. Nuclear issues. You get the scare for nuclear power, nuclear waste, and it’s also nuclear weapons. But the other thing with nuclear weapons is I think it’s a psychological thing on the speed with which you do destruction. People point out that before the nuclear weapons were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, all the firebombing of Tokyo and that, long- drawn- out thing. Just as much destruction, I believe. But to be able to do the same thing with one bomb instantaneously is bothersome. And that’s so much power. You put that in the hands of the wrong people, and especially now, the terrorist issues and that sort of thing, that’s why people, I think, are pushing to try to get rid of them. But I don’t believe you can do it. So that’s my— Great. OK. Let’s see. Am I giving you what you want? Yes, both what you just said and then with the stories; it was all really great. So what more can you tell me about your dad and his work that you know? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 Well, there’s a whole period of time, which was during the moratorium, ’ 60 and that, and after that where there’s— J- Division did many different things. You originally thought of J- Division as doing nuclear testing. After we stopped testing above ground, there was also a readiness program, and J- Division participated in that, and that was flying C- 135s, which were military 707s, on scientific missions. And so the idea was that you had to maintain the capability to do diagnostics for atmospheric tests. You were not doing an atmospheric test, so you would go off and you’d maintain a capability by doing real science. And so what they did was take these airplanes and flew solar eclipse missions, studied the Aurora Borealis, all this sort of thing. And there are many stories of all the great things they did on those, or great times they had doing those things. But part of the reason I wanted to bring that up is my father was the— I’m not sure what the right term was that they used at that time— like a test director for one of these flights. I remember, when they were going down to South America and flying against— there was a solar eclipse off the coast of Brazil. And he didn’t just want to go as the director. So I remember him sitting at home, and we were in high school, college, my brother and I, both in physics at that time, and him asking the question, Well, what kind of experiment should I do? And [ 00: 40: 00] he eventually designed this experiment which he was responsible for, with some antenna sticking out the back of the plane or something. I don’t remember the details about what it was. But I think the point is he could have gone just as the director and been fine. He didn’t want to do that. He wanted to do some technical work also on it. Along with that, though, on sort of not the technical side but the personal side, I told you there were many stories about some of these trips. One of them, I just believe, went with J- Division, was they really liked to work hard but they also liked to play hard. And there are UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 stories about him throwing parties after these things in the hotels in Rio de Janeiro. I remember another one, seeing pictures in Fiji where they’re all wearing their lava- lavas and trying to dance the local dance and all that sort of thing. So they had great times. I think that’s another thing that’s lost in many of the organizations these days, is the partying part that went along with the hard work part. An important part of building a coherent organization. Building a family. Anyway, so I think that was during the— well, now that I think about it, that program went away, I believe, in like ’ 72. So that was during the sixties time frame. Late sixties, early seventies. Let’s see. My father worked very closely with Al Graves. My memory of Al Graves is very dim. I do know that my father thought the world of Al Graves. When Al Graves left as J- Division leader, then my father took over and was J- Division leader up until he left in ’ 72. Yes, Graves is another name like your father’s that you hear people speak with a lot of respect, and almost a legendary quality to both those names. I think there were some real amazing people around at that time. Don’t see as many now. But anyway. So he retired in ’ 72? He retired in ’ 72. I really can’t say what the reason was. I think it was a mixture of both personal and professional. I think somewhere in that time frame in the early seventies, maybe late sixties, I think there were maybe some power struggles within the lab, with him and [ Harold] Agnew. [ Norris] Bradbury had basically given my father freedom, and there were stories about, if my father needed something, needed more money to do something, that sort of thing, he could just go to Washington and get that money. And Bradbury gave him all the freedom in the world. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 Agnew, when he came in, did not do that. So I think that was one of the reasons I think he may have left. I heard of some power struggles and various arguments about various things. I don’t know this. Had Harold Agnew been— what position had he had before he became the director of the lab? You don’t need to know that, but I’m wondering if they had had interactions previous to that. [ 00: 45: 00] I don’t know. I don’t remember. I don’t know either. So he came in around ’ 70, is that right? I think it was then. Yes, I think that’s right. Seventy or early seventies that he came in. [ 1970] Yes. So anyway. So my father, though— the thing that I think you probably do know about my father is, if I go back also to the sixties again— was the [ Operation] Dominic series [ 1962]. When they came out of the moratorium, he was the test group director. And that was also the time Kennedy was president. And because of how important it was to go back to testing at the time, my father made the cover of Time magazine. And I think the museum out there has a picture of that sort of thing. They probably do. I may have seen it, actually. But I remember my father coming back from Washington once where he had had to go and brief the President, and his comment was basically that he would not want to get in an argument with Kennedy. He came out of that with a lot of respect for that man. Anyway, then he went off and did his thing out in the Pacific. Can’t tell you much about the Pacific stuff, since I wasn’t there. No, this is fine because there’s a lot of this we can get from books, but this is something that we can’t get from books. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 Yes. [ The] personal reason I think he retired in ’ 72 was divorce. He met a woman in Alaska when they were doing the Amchitka series of shots. The Cannikin? Yes. And a woman that, as he put it to me at one time, he fell in love with two women. And he was always sort of a pioneer. He looked at Alaska as the last frontier. And so his choice was to go off to Alaska. So he retired from the lab, and he made it so my mother was taken care of. So he made sure she was financially taken care of for life. And him and my mother always remained friends up until his death. Let’s see, though, he went off to Alaska and started his own company up there. Really. Well, he felt he had to make a living doing something, and he wasn’t willing to give up and quit. Started his own little consulting company. I think he was the science advisor to the governor of Alaska for, I don’t know, three, four years or something like that. Got involved in geothermal energy, thinking geothermal energy was a good thing for Alaska. And I remember him coming by and showing me a proposal he was taking to Washington, which I thought was quite an interesting proposal on how to basically capture the sun’s energy during the summer and store it underground to be used during the winter. So he did that. He also remained a consultant to Department of Energy [ DOE] and [ 00: 50: 00] DoD [ Department of Defense] in Washington, as well as Nevada, up until his death. He used to chair whatever the name of the committee was that looked at all the tests that were done in Nevada. He chaired that for a number of years until I think it was finally dissolved close to the time he died. Was that that [ Test] Evaluation Panel [ TEP], is that the one you’re talking about, or—? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 That may be it. It had people from Los Alamos, Livermore, Sandia,