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Interview with Lawrence E. Lermusiaux, July 14, 2005


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Lermusiaux, Lawrence E. Interview, 2005 July 14. MS-00818. [Transcript]. Oral History Research Center, Special Collections and Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.


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Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with Lawrence Lermusiaux July 14, 2005 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Suzanne Becker © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Lawrence Lermusiaux July 14, 2005 Conducted by Suzanne Becker Table of Contents Introduction: birth ( Albuquerque, NM, 1951), father’s work at the NTS ( 1952- 1962) and in the Las Vegas community ( Lemke Construction), childhood in Las Vegas, NV. 1 Jobs at the NTS and the “ Reynolds gait”. 4 Albert R. Lermusiaux: social involvement in the Las Vegas community. 6 Work done by Lemke Construction at the NTS: dormitories, camera pits and pads, cement blockhouses. 7 Ruppert Plumbing and work at the NTS, story about Bobby Ruppert. 10 Contractors and work at the NTS in a pre- litigious American society. 12 The Cold War era and what people knew about it. 13 No memories of atmospheric testing. 15 Thoughts on possible radiation contamination. 16 Father’s work for CCSD and Nellis AFB. 17 Early Las Vegas and the NTS. 18 Reflections on the Atomic Testing Museum, and donation of materials to Clark County Museum. 20 Family details ( siblings), memorials of father’s work throughout Las Vegas, negative effects of city’s expansion. 22 Significant changes in Las Vegas: expansion of UNLV, introduction of I- 15, maturity of community allows them to give back, poor stewardship on part of local government, negative impact of immigration. 25 History of Las Vegas as a boom town. 28 Memories of early Las Vegas and comparison to present- day Prescott, AZ: Helldorado, community spirit, growth of the Las Vegas Strip. 30 Growing up in Las Vegas and migration of the community. 36 Education at UNLV ( 1970- 1974). 37 Recollection of Ruppert family and their home in Warm Springs, NV. 38 Reflections on community involvement and communication yesterday and today. 41 Steve Wynn: the transformation of the hotel- entertainment industry and evolution of the Las Vegas Strip ( ca. 1980). 44 Conclusion: advent of video poker and rejuvenation of slot- machine industry. 46 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Lawrence Lermusiaux July 14, 2005 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Suzanne Becker [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Suzanne Becker: If you just want to start by stating your name and where you’re from, when you were born? Lawrence Lermusiaux: I’m Lawrence E. Lermusiaux, known as Larry Lermusiaux. I reside at 6240 Duneville Street, Las Vegas, Nevada. I’ve been a resident here for approximately fifty- three- and- a- half years. I was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico November 11, 1951. My father, Albert R. Lermusiaux, known as Al, professionally known also as A. R. Lermusiaux, graduated from the University of New Mexico with a degree in civil engineering. While he was attending the University of New Mexico, he had gone to work for a construction company in Albuquerque named Lembke Construction. Lembke Construction had an office in Albuquerque and in Colorado and I believe in Idaho at the time. In early 1952 my father, upon graduation from UNM and then while full- time employed by Lembke in Albuquerque, was reassigned to southern Nevada. Lembke had been awarded a contract to build the first permanent facilities at the Nevada Test Site which were, I believe, dormitories. They teamed up with another contractor, a company known as Clough & King. For a short time, they were known as Lembke- Clough & King. Throughout the years, my father, through Lembke Construction, was involved with a number of different projects out at the test site, some of which I could enumerate. As far as my personal background is concerned, my dad was employed with Lembke until, I believe, 1963 or 1964 when he went into business for himself. [ He] was involved in a lot of projects that were substantial in the community while he was with Lembke. They built the Las UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 Vegas Convention Center, they built McCarran International Airport, they built the Dunes Hotel high rise, they built the Guardian Angel Catholic Church on the Las Vegas Strip, the first high rise downtown was the Fremont Hotel, Las Vegas High School auditorium, the first wastewater treatment plant for the City of Las Vegas, and on and on. So growing up here, you’ve certainly seen this place change. Absolutely. And grow. And it sounds like your dad had a lot to do with that, building some of the more significant landmarks of Las Vegas. Were you aware of that at all, that as Las Vegas was growing, that your dad was part of this? Of course, young boys don’t know much beyond their neighborhood. And the town, there were only about forty, fifty thousand people that lived here. You didn’t have much of an awareness of things. In those days, everybody bought their clothes down on Fremont Street. We used to walk downtown. I suppose one of the most notable differences between then and now is that when I was a young boy only ten or eleven years old, on any given Saturday my friends and I would walk from what was then North Las Vegas all the way to downtown on Fremont Street, spend the day going through the stores, go to a movie, and come home. We’d be gone the entire day. My parents weren’t at all concerned because nothing happened to your kids. Now you can’t even walk to school anymore. But one of the things in my youth that I always found especially fascinating is that when Lembke Construction had taken on a number of these Atomic Energy Commission [ AEC] contracts, one of the expectations on the part of the AEC was that they be able to keep documents in a secured site in their office. As a consequence, remembering of course a Las Vegas back in those days when bank vaults were kind of a joke, even, Lembke had a special safe UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 [ 00: 05: 00] built into their building. It was large enough, it was an actual walk- in safe, and within that safe there was another safe. But within the larger one, there was a desk and shelving and all sorts of things. Well, every now again when I would go with my father down to his office on a weekend, I would always insist that he open the great big safe door, and I always used to watch with fascination as he moved the tumblers back and forth and swinging open that great big huge door because that was real mystic stuff for a little boy. So I remember that well. As far as any other aspects of how it affected me in my youth, it really didn’t. I had friends, of course, whose fathers worked at the test site perhaps as electricians or painters or plumbers; outside of being in their homes and hearing their fathers gripe constantly about the long haul out there and back, it really didn’t mean anything. I suppose my father never discussed some of the more interesting aspects of those projects simply because I was a kid and it would be lost on me. It’s a rare occasion when a son has an opportunity to speak of some of the things that his father did, so I welcome this. It’s interesting to talk about unto itself. Something you just said, a question popped into my head. You talk to many people that have worked at the test site and one of the things that you hear about is this camaraderie that forms amongst many of the workers out there. Whether they’re at different areas, whether it’s the test site managers, the miners, the engineers, the electricians, we always hear about a sense of camaraderie, and it sounds like here in town on the family end, because the test site at one time was such a large employer for Las Vegas, that you probably had many friends whose parents worked out there. I’m just wondering if as a kid you had any sense of camaraderie with other families, or what it was like here in town, if you had an awareness of that. When I had reached a stage in my life where I paid attention to such things, and I suppose it was noteworthy that test site jobs were considered amongst the better- paying construction jobs. The UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 travel to and fro from the test site, was handled by the same bus line here in this town, LTR, for literally decades was a family- owned business. The only other comments that I ever used to hear about it, and again as I say as I grew older and they became the stuff that would be important to me to pay attention to, was that like so many other government jobs, with time these types of jobs were considered to be a little bit of fluff, and of course this is just conjecture on my part but—. “ These types of jobs” meaning? Construction jobs. That since the labor pool in some respects was somewhat limited and very tightly controlled by the area unions, that the government and its contractors didn’t do too much to ruffle feathers, and as a consequence, people who worked there were sometimes thought of as, you know, having a soft job. Really. Yes. In fact, my dad used to speak disparagingly of that. As a contractor, he used to refer to the speed at which they performed their relative jobs out there as “ the Reynolds gait.” Reynolds Electrical [ and Engineering Company, REECo] was a major contractor out there and they employed a lot of people. And when my dad referred to workers functioning with a “ Reynolds gait,” he wasn’t referring to the gate, G- A- T- E; he was referring to gait, G- A- I- T, meaning the [ 00: 10: 00] speed or lack thereof with which the employees moved about, taking care of their respective jobs. “ The Reynolds gait.” A little bit slow. Yes. The jobs, like I say, were considered to be good jobs to have. Most of the people that I know who worked there worked there for a long time. I had an uncle who was a painter for a UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 local paint contractor who, I don’t know, he probably worked out at the test site for fifteen, twenty years. Now, was he in construction out there also? He was a painter. So he painted. I think he worked for an outfit called M. J. DeBase [ sp] but I’m not sure. Anyway, they were considered good jobs. My dad’s capacity out there was as an engineer, as a site control person. He, during his time with Lembke, advanced rapidly and ended up actually being part owner and vice- president. And he loved his work. He loved his work. Important thing. Now, he was out there for fifty years, is that correct? No. No. OK, I was going to say that’s— No. Lembke had a series of jobs out there beginning in 1952, and I think their last job out there was probably around 1960, 1961, somewhere around in there. I don’t think they did anything past then. My dad did used to remark on occasion, though, that no one could ever find a greater example of wasted government money than with some of the facilities to be found out there. He used to allude to underground warehouses that were lined completely in titanium, and after the projects that they were used for, were completely left empty and never to be opened or used for anything. He said people have no idea how much money lies underneath the ground out at the test site, and what always will be there. He said that it’s probably true that when you’re involved in certain aspects of experimentation, that’s just the by- product of it but, he said, it breaks your heart to see stuff like that lying unused and there’s functionally absolutely nothing wrong with it. Now, did he go out there daily, drive out daily? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 Yes. He used to go out in his own car. And so he must have been gone quite a bit, long days, it sounds like. Long days. Actually, it’s interesting you bring that up. I have two brothers and two sisters. I’m the oldest sibling. My second- youngest brother, Tom, when he first learned how to speak, called my dad “ Hi.” The reason he called him Hi is [ that] when he was in his baby formative years— of course would be asleep early, the only times that he ever saw my dad was when he’d come home. He would hear everyone say “ Hi” when they saw him, so he thought my dad’s name was Hi. It comes from being in the business world sometimes. But he finally broke himself of that habit. So was that hard that he was gone so much, long days, particularly for you as the oldest? Kids, I think, always feel slighted somehow or another time- wise, and that’s particularly challenging for any family where one or both of the parents is running their own business or formatively involved in a business. And as a consequence, that did have its effect on our household. My dad also was socially involved. He was a past president of the Las Vegas Jaycees in either 1963 or 1964. I believe it was ’ 64. And back in those days, the Jaycees and the [ 00: 15: 00] Elks were probably the two major community organizations in Las Vegas. In fact, I just recently gave a reproduction of a photo which shows my dad in 1965 giving the award for the outstanding young man for the community to Mike O’Callaghan, who is deceased, died last year in 2004. He’s a former governor, generally considered the most popular governor in the history of Nevada. At the time, O’Callaghan was just a school teacher out at Basic High, so it’s interesting that as time passes I can say these things and move along. But of course, there are things, when you’re in your youth, that you would’ve liked to have had your dad at an awards ceremony or this, that, or the other, but those are just the things that come with life, and their UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 compensation is that you know that your parents love you and that they take care of you, and so it goes. So it impacted the family, it sounds like, but— Yes. It’s the give- and- take of it all. Now, did you ever make it out to the test site with him? No. Actually I don’t know if they did it early on, but they used to have family days or visiting days. Back in the day when my dad was involved, you have to remember that it was a much less sophisticated world than it is today and these things were considered much more hush- hush. Now, since so much of this is after the fact and a lot it’s become very homogenized with the tours that they take out there, well, that wasn’t the case back in those days, so that was never even something to wish for. It was never spoken of. Just what it was. So your dad was out there for ten, eleven years, then? Those weren’t the only projects that Lembke had. So what specifically were his years that he was involved with the test site? Well, it would be safe to say that any project that Lembke was involved in with the AEC between 1952 and 1962, my father would’ve been involved in on some level. So for at least that decade. Right. And do you know specifically some of the other types of work that he did out there? Well, as I say, they built the first dormitories. They built the camera pits and pads where such things as the much- vaunted Rapatronic camera was housed. They built a lot of the structures that UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 were erected to be photographed by the Rapatronic for time detonation. Gosh, I couldn’t even begin to tell you how many. They did a lot of projects out there. The most interesting one, for which I brought along this photograph for your file, involves the towers that they used. There were several different ways that they used to explode devices out there, and the earliest one, for example, the first one, [ Operation] Ranger, most people don’t know it but it actually was an air detonation. The bomb, I believe, was dropped by a parachute and detonated while it was free- falling. While they were still doing above- ground testing, most of them were done on towers, steel- fabricated towers that ranged anywhere from a hundred to three or four hundred feet high, attached with guide wires. Typically the tower was rectangular in nature. It had a blockhouse at the top. It had an elevator that passed through the center of the tower from the ground floor up to the blockhouse, and that was how they would deliver the bomb to the top. My dad’s involvement with that— I don’t know whether they erected any of the towers or not— but his involvement was in creating a methodology for the Rapatronic camera to determine the degradation of the building materials that comprised the blockhouse that the bomb was [ 00: 20: 00] placed in at the top of the structure. The Rapatronic, I have to apologize because I can’t remember what its shutter speed is but it’s beyond human imagination. It was used to detect the disintegration of different types of building materials to determine the effect that it had on [ and] how quickly something broke down, the manner in which it broke down. Well, they had yet to be able to detect the disintegration of the blockhouse. Well, my dad, in conjunction with I think somebody from Reynolds Electric, his name was Ed Moore, created a formula that could be used in the Portland cement mix that was used to construct the blockhouses at the top of the structures so that the Rapatronic, upon the detonation of the device, would be able to recognize UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 that isotope, if you will, in the structure as it was being blown up, or at least that is what the idea was. The downside to my father’s involvement with that was that it required that he take readings on the cement batch as it was curing and as it was being used on the blockhouse, which meant that he had to go to the top of the structure. He said in one of the rare examples of the federal government using its head, to his disadvantage. Originally, as I said, the elevators used to be within the confines of the tower, and so as you were traveling up to the top, you felt relatively secure because you could see the brightly- painted, nice, shiny- looking metal all around you and this elevator was nice and firm- feeling underfoot. Well, somebody somewhere finally had their light bulb go off when they reflected that why are we spending all this money to erect and paint these structures and pay for these fancy elevators when all we’re doing is blowing them up? So they changed their strategy, and from that point on they didn’t bother to paint them, and the fancy elevator got the heave- ho, and instead they put one of those saddlebacks that was hooked up to the exterior of the structure that it’s kind of like a ca- clunk, ca- clunk, ca- clunk, type mechanism. So, he said, consequently from that point on, as he had to travel up, all he could see was the panorama of the desert all the way around him, and he said that could be a little bit spooky. But he had to do a number of those, so that was a very interesting project that he was involved in. So that was always interesting to hear about, and actually I did know Ed Moore, who was the guy that he teamed up with on creating that. But the reason that the collaboration was called for was because it had to be done in a way that didn’t compromise what would ordinarily be considered the mix for the cement and concrete that was used, bearing in mind that they wanted to use real life situations as much as they could. So, at any rate, he was involved in a lot of that. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 And this is a picture of a tower as you were just describing. Right. One of the towers. Well, it sounds like he was able to come home and tell you guys some good stories. Actually, I didn’t hear these stories until I was an adult. A combination, I suppose, of my father being so much in the business world and so much in the construction business world that he led a very adult life. And it was only when I was an adult that we really were able to communicate on that sort of level, which was something that we both enjoyed when that time came. Now, with a lot of folks and a lot of the various jobs that have been out at the test site, people haven’t necessarily been able to talk about some of the work they’ve done. And again, I don’t know if he needed any type of clearance to be out there or if secrecy was, you know, whether he was permitted to actually talk about this work or not? Do you have any sense of that? I don’t think that he actually was ever at the site when they had a detonation. I don’t think he was there. Because I should think that he would have made mention of that, and I don’t recall he ever [ 00: 25: 00] has. So I don’t think that he was ever there. It’s interesting because some of the companies that first came to this town because of those projects went on to really substantial success in the community. A contemporary of my dad’s was a guy by the name of Bobby Ruppert. His father was the originator of Ruppert Plumbing. At one time, he was the largest mechanical contractor in the Southwest. And Bobby was his son. Ruppert Senior was known as Smiley, and he was known as Smiley because he had a volcanic temper. And Bobby, my father’s age, was very involved in his father’s business here in town. They did a lot of work out at the test site. In fact, I can’t remember the whole story, but Bobby Ruppert was quite a hellion in his day and in fact in his later years he was a stock car driver— he and his father were both big car UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 fans – and Bobby was even racing in his fifties, and he was known as Red Feather Ruppert. In fact, there’s a building complex out on the northwest part of Las Vegas that is known as Red Feather Plaza, and it’s named after Bobby Rupert. His family developed the property. Anyway, Bobby Ruppert was coming back from the test site one day, and before he had left the test site, there had been an accident that had taken place on the Tonopah highway heading to Las Vegas. An ambulance had been sent out. While the ambulance was on its way out to get to the scene of the accident, a Highway Patrol car showed up at the scene, lost control of his car and ran into the cars that were involved in the accident. When the ambulance showed up, there was some debris on the road that got under one of its tires. It suffered a blowout and ran into the cop car that had run into the vehicles in the accident. Bobby Ruppert was coming back now from the test site and he was probably driving his usual 120 miles an hour. He said he came over the rise— I’ll always remember— he came over the rise and came upon this accident scene so quickly that he couldn’t react, so all he could do was, quote, “ hit the switch and head for the cellar,” and that’s just what he did. He just dove down onto the floorboard of his vehicle, which then smashed into the ambulance. And out of all the people that were seriously injured, Bobby Ruppert had a scratch or two and that was about it. That’s the way he always was. The town was a rough- and- tumble town back then, and I knew a number of these guys that had worked with my dad out at the site and, like so many other people in that era, they were a combination of smart and tough, and self- sacrificing. And that’s a really apt description for, I think, an entire era that was at the test site for probably like twenty years, it seems like. I don’t know if you get a sense of this now, but I think some of those jobs that were out at the test site, you couldn’t even do today. I think it was the being- UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 tough- and- being- smart combination, especially from some of the descriptions that you talk about, that kind of stuff doesn’t happen much anymore. It’s a more litigious world that we live in today, and as a consequence, projects and their intended purpose too often become secondary towards all the other subsidiary things with OSHA [ Occupational Safety and Health Administration] and long- term effects and so on and so forth. People kind of lose sight of what— back in those days, if there was something [ 00: 30: 00] that needed to be done, they just exerted best efforts to accomplish it. And is that to say that it always ended up with the conclusion they anticipated? No, nor does it mean that perhaps certain things could’ve been done a little bit better, but hindsight’s always 20- 20. You work with what you have, and as long as the intent is good, which I think it always was with regards to the test site and the personnel that were involved out there, gainfully employed out there, I think the intentions were always positive on the part of the United States government, which was national security, and on the part of the contractors who worked out there, which was to do the job that they had been contracted to do. And for the worker bees, if you will, who were out there who, all kidding aside, are where the rubber meets the road, and if indeed they hadn’t done their jobs correctly, it would’ve affected the overall success or insuccess of the projects so, you know. Now, you were a kid growing up here, and you mentioned that the purpose of the test site was generally was for a pretty good cause, national security, as a kid you said that you didn’t really think much about the test site being there, but were you aware of what we look back on now as the Cold War era, and did they talk about this in school? Did they ever mention the test site, or did you guys have the duck- and- cover drills like some other places had? Oh, yeah, we had that. In fact, the elementary school that I went to had the area air raid siren that used to go off every Saturday morning at noon. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 Where’d you go to elementary school? Tom Williams Elementary. I believe it’s on Tonopah and Belmont in North Las Vegas. Yeah, we had those get- under- the- desk drills. Oh, let’s see, what else? You had just mentioned something. Did they talk about it at all? They didn’t talk about it a great deal. A young boy’s mind is occupied with all kinds of things, and the realities of war beyond playing war is, I don’t know, an abstract concept at best. The potentiality for destruction, again, was something that was kind of abstract. You know, it’s interesting. Back in those days, the gathering of information and the dissemination of information wasn’t nearly at the level that it is today. People knew less, there was functionally less to report, and the vehicles for reporting it were substantially more limited than they are nowadays. I mean, now news has become a joke. I think people, unfortunately, are zoning out on news because it’s become too much of a business. It’s like an advertisement. But back in those days, of course, you didn’t have very much of that. And you didn’t even have a lot of photography. People didn’t take as many pictures as they take now and all those sorts of things, so the type of exposure that you had to what was going on out there was pretty limited. And also I think that it’s certainly true that if anyone such as my father or people who were involved with Reynolds Electric or EG& G [ Edgerton, Germeshausen, and Grier] or people who were in the upper echelon with the AEC, I mean their basic operating instructions were that you weren’t supposed to be talking about this stuff, so they didn’t talk about it. So it was just as simple as that, really. We did have one neighbor, lived about a block- and- a- half away, who had built an underground bomb shelter. It was the only one I’d ever seen. And the only way you could tell is they had built like a patio slab and they had some decorative furniture on it, but off in the corner UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 you could see this ventilation pipe coming up out of the ground, and you almost [ 00: 35: 00] had to look for it to find it. And oh, that was very mystic stuff when I was a kid. Did you get to go down in it? No, no, because we didn’t know the people who lived there. They didn’t have kids, so I didn’t know anybody from school, couldn’t wangle it that way. But yeah, that was pretty interesting stuff. And I don’t think that those types of things ever really popped into my head, actually, until the Cuban missile crisis, not because so much of what was being reported on TV or the radio, but because I could sense a very, very somber seriousness on the part of all the adults that were around me. Obviously, this was something pretty serious. And that affected me. That scared me. I remember that. So, once again it’s that thing that if adults don’t think that kids pick up on things, they certainly do. And that was the case for me. But as far as did I used to, to my recollection anyway, did I used to think about the bomb, what it could mean to me, or— you know, back in those days, they didn’t even talk about contamination. I mean they used to have soldiers standing 500 yards away or whatever. It wasn’t even an issue. And it wasn’t because they disregarded it, as some lawyers like to make a living out of nowadays, but they were functioning with the information that they had. Yeah. I mean throughout the process, I’m sure we learned so much about— you learn as you go. And could it be that that issue should have been addressed in later years as information was becoming available and was relevant? That’s a different conversation. At that point then, unfortunately, then you do need a lawyer, I guess, but back in those days, I didn’t even give it the time of day. It’s interesting because you were young but you were still, I think, old enough to be cognizant of it. Now, you said that your dad wasn’t out there for any of the tests, that you didn’t think but— UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 I don’t think so, but then again, my father was a very traditional person. It could very well be that if [ he] had ever at some point or another been instructed by someone that there are certain things that you’re simply not supposed to talk about, he may’ve gone to his grave with that. And if that’s the case, I can only respect him for having done what he thought he was supposed to do and regret that I didn’t catch an extra- good story or two, but could very, very well be. Do you as a kid remember when they used to do the tests? Because I think the tests were ’ 51 through ’ 62 when they were doing the atmospheric tests, and living here in Las Vegas, some folks have recollection of like their swimming pool sloshing back and forth or cups in the cupboards sometimes shaking, or downtown occasionally I think there was a light or something that they would— I don’t have any of that. You don’t recall? No, I don’t remember seeing the cloud. To begin with, I think the number of occasions when you could actually see anything when they had a detonation, from here in Las Vegas