Interview with John Frederick Campbell, January 31, 2006

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with John F. Campbell January 31, 2006 Las Vegas, Nevada Interview Conducted By Charlie Deitrich © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with John F. Campbell January 31, 2006 Conducted by Charlie Deitrich Table of Contents Introduction: Details beginning to end of nuclear event: financing 1 Determining ground zero 2 Containment and driving the tunnels 3 Hiring the crews and setting the test date 5 Setting up the device and responsibility of mining superintendent 6 Unusual requests from scientists 7 Buttoning up N Tunnel 9 Statistics on physical setup for Distant Zenith 10 Challenges to testing 11 Completing and strengthening tunnels for containment 12 Preparing the line- of- sight pipes to ground zero 14 Goals of Distant Zenith 17 Sealing the tunnels with concrete and grout 17 Inserting the device into ground zero 18 Responsibilities of mining superintendent, major challenges in mining a tunnel, installing the device 20 Digging the bypass, line- of- sight tunnel, and crosscuts, late- time closures, stemming 24 Notable experiments 28 Mighty Oak and containment 32 Acronyms and various “ jargons” spoken by workers at the NTS 32 Recollection of Baneberry 33 Details of mining a tunnel, safety concerns 35 Talks about job as mining superintendent 39 Details on completing and strengthening tunnel walls with gunite, industry safety record 40 Other tasks required in completing a tunnel for a test: cabling, core drilling, pre- stemming and stemming the line- of- sight pipe, importance of types of concrete used, fielding the line- of- sight pipe 42 Setting up experiments in the line- of- sight pipe, pumping a vacuum, dry runs, setting up recording stations and computers, cabling 51 Importance of and danger to RADSAFE on reentry 54 Late- time tasks: buttoning up the tunnel, arrival and assembly of the device, final closure, moving to CP, countdown, and detonation of test 54 Details of reentry after the test 59 Talks about megaton tests Benham and Boxcar and resultant large cavities 62 Conclusion: post- detonation and moving on to future tests 63 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with John F. Campbell January 31, 2006 in Las Vegas, NV Conducted by Charlie Deitrich [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. Charlie Deitrich: I just wanted first of all to say thanks, and you’re going to run us basically through the beginning to the end of an event, the Distant Zenith event [ 0919/ 1991]. John Campbell: [ A] nuclear test, the nuclear weapons test, and it was for Defense Nuclear Agency [ DNA] which was a DoD, Department of Defense [ test], and that’s where our funding came through. And I worked for Reynolds Electric and Engineering [ REECo] and their parent company was EG& G [ Edgerton, Germeshausen, and Grier], and Reynolds Electric and Engineering did forty years of support of nuclear testing on the [ Nevada] test site. Then I worked out there till 1994 when the moratorium shut us down or limited— the test ban treaty shut us down. First they would acquire the funding and then you would have a Containment [ Evaluation] Panel that would meet. They were usually a group of scientists that would determine what yield the device would be, how big it was going to be, and then what part of the mountain or real estate that we would drive the tunnel under to get the most overburden for containment. Overburden is the amount of earth above ground zero, see, because we’re driving this portal, portal being the entrance to a tunnel, back into a mountain called Rainier Mesa. It was Area 12, Rainier Mesa, P Tunnel, “ Papa Tunnel,” P Tunnel, and the event was code- named Distant Zenith. Let me ask you, as far as the funding goes, and I don’t know how familiar you are with this, but does the idea for a test come first or does the money come first and how the money’s going to be spent comes later? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 Usually they had programs, and programs would entail several different tests to prove this type of device, or maybe they wanted a bigger yield, a lot of those determined the yield, and then the effects upon electricity, radar. They tested for everything. Communications. At one time they even hung a nuclear device and missile that was taken off of a Russian submarine off of Hawaii with the Glomar [ Explorer], the Hughes undersea mining venture that they disguised as undersea mining. But what they did, they went off the coast of Hawaii, I don’t know, several hundred miles and set up and reached down into the ocean and picked onto this nuclear sub that still had Russian people aboard and nuclear weapons, and pulled it right up into the bay of this huge ship. And they took that missile and took it to the test site in T Tunnel. And Mint Leaf would be— I’m guessing at this. It was in Mint Leaf, the code of the test [ 05/ 05/ 1970]. And I think that was T- 02— Tunnel, 02 Drift in T Tunnel [ actually 01 drift]. And they hung that whole missile inside of this line- of- sight pipe which was a test chamber, and exposed it to that flash of light that comes from a detonation, a nuclear device. All they want is more or less the flash of light. I got you. “ The shine,” right, is that what it was called? The shine. Yeah. And then as soon as the device— well, seconds after it’s detonated, nanoseconds really, the closures start happening [ slapping hands together rapidly], and that’s inside of the line- of- sight pipe, they have closures that are built to contain the gases and any debris or anything that might come down the line- of- sight pipe. Test chambers. But first they would establish the funding and then they would have the meetings and find out where, through core drilling and through surface drilling and through geology, they would determine where ground zero was going to be, and that had to be in such an area where [ 00: 05: 00] there was, oh, a minimum of somewhere around between 700 and 1,000 feet of earth above the event. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 And that would be overburden? That’s what we would call overburden. And there were so many acronyms from the test site that most people look at you like, whoa, what kind of language is he speaking? Because all of them, they were acronyms and names for things that— we even invented names because there was no name for them, for the tasks and what we did and how we did it. And the decision as to where to do the test would be based on the size of the test, is that right? Yes. And that would be done by what they call a Containment committee. There’d be a panel of several of the scientists. In fact, Dr. Jim Carothers, I believe he was the chair of the Containment [ Evaluation] Panel for many years. And they would try to portray a synopsis of worst case, what would happen here if it’s this big, how are we going to do this and do that, and they all had to be reasonably sure that they could contain this device before we ever started going to driving the tunnel. And then we would drive, oh, let’s see if I can read this here, tunneling, there was about 4,400, say 4,500 feet of tunnels that would be driven for this particular event. Each event would take somewhere in the neighborhood of about four to five thousand foot of tunnel driving, of different sizes. They weren’t all the same size. We’d start out somewhere around an eighteen- by- eighteen or a sixteen- by- sixteen heading and as we advanced the tunnel, we would mine for containment plugs. There had to be huge concrete plugs inserted into the mountain that we could get access in and out with our tunnel trains and locomotives. They were all twenty- ton diesel locomotives that would pull the mine cars for hauling the concrete underground and the debris or muck, we’ll call it, outside. OK. Now the portal already exists? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 Well, we would have to mine the portal in the beginning, but they would do that— from the portal to the nearest test bed was somewhere in the neighborhood of 2,500 feet to about 3,000 feet, and then we would start what they call Y- off or branch- off with a test over here and one up there and one over here. And so you’d be able to get several tests out of one? Several. In one case, at N Tunnel, we even used the same drift, the same line- of- sight pipe. All they did was bring the ground zero closer to the portal, or closer to the entrance of the tunnel. I think the Miners Iron and Diablo Hawk, those two, they used the same test chambers, line- of- sight pipe, and all that stuff. Ground zero was, say, at seven or eight thousand foot from the portal. The next ground zero would have been probably 1,800 foot to 2,000 foot closer. Because the earth wasn’t disturbed very much, the ground fall and the damage from the previous test was more or less contained back there, see. And does ground fall mean—? Cave- in. So that’s actually a word that means what it sounds like. Right. Ground fall. It’s a cave- in. Yes. And so is P a tunnel or a portal? P is the tunnel. They had several tunnels. In early days they had A Tunnel, B Tunnel, G Tunnel, E Tunnel, T Tunnel, I said N Tunnel, and then P Tunnel. P Tunnel was the latest, and that’s the one that they keep in readiness today, if they were to go back testing. That was one of the requirements of the moratorium, that we could stay in readiness, and so there’s a test bed already mined. All they have to do is start to field the line- of- sight pipe and the experiments for the scientists. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 [ 00: 10: 00] And that’s P Tunnel that’s [ overlapping voices]. That’s right, P Tunnel, yeah. I think the way it’s worded now is it has to be ready to go within, what, two years, is that right? They give us somewhere about two years before, and now they want to cut that in half. I read that, too. Yeah, they wanted to cut that in half, and so they’ve tasked all these engineers in the think tank to cut that in half. It’s going to be tough. I guess they can do it, but they’re going to have to do it different than we’ve ever done it. I don’t know how they’d do it for sure but I’m sure if there’s enough money behind anything, they’ll figure out a way. The twenty- six years that I spent out there, that’s how they more or less did some of these tasks, [ it] was with nothing but manpower. They just threw manpower and ideas and money at it and kept her going. We never shut down. And somehow, someway, we figured out a way to do it. Indeed. All right. Well, so we have the funding, we have the tunnel that’s chosen— The test bed has been chosen. And then we’ll hire a cadre of [ miners]— because we go three eight- hour shifts, so we’re continually mining, most of the time, not all the time, you know. Sometimes they’d run one shift, but predominantly if they needed— they’d set a date somewhere out in the future of about eighteen months, they’d circle the day on the calendar that this is the event day, the zero time, and then we would be challenged to meet that date. And it was about eighteen months. That was the average? Somewhere around in there. A good average of eighteen months is what they’d give us, and that is to construct the tunnels, the mining the test bed, to field the experiments from the users or the experimenters, scientists, and then to execute the event, and then to reenter that test bed and UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 capture their films and experiments. They would go back in and actually retrieve a lot of the experiments and films and stuff like that that were in recording alcoves. So the zero time isn’t necessarily the day of the event; it’s when— The second they push the red button. Oh, that is zero time? That’s zero. OK. And then there’s some time between zero time and when you collect all the data and whatnot. We call it X- minus- eighteen months, just like you were counting down, that’s the way they do it. When it gets down to minus- ten minutes and then they get right down and then they count down the last twenty seconds, fifteen, ten, nine, eight, and all of what’s done is then automatic. The control point must be somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty, twenty- five miles from P Tunnel, and it’s done remotely from about twenty miles away. But there’s cameras everywhere. They’ve got underground— they even have cameras right on the device, but there are very few people see that. You ever see it? One time. Really. Yes. I got to see two devices while the scientists were hooking them up, doing the wiring and the measuring and whatever they do, their part. They were, what do they call that, device engineers. They would bring it in. But once it went underground through the portal, the responsibility of the men’s safety was my responsibility because I was the mining superintendent, so I would usually be on the team that would walk the flatcar in, pushed by a motor, with the pig on it, and a pig is a UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 lead- shielded containment vessel for transportation of the nuclear device. And then they’d take it up to ground zero and there’d be probably a party of about, including security, there’d be, oh, ten, twelve of us that would escort this thing to ground zero, and then they’d have your industrial hygiene and RADSAFE, the radiation technicians, they would check for leaks and this and do their safety checks, and then take the device out of the pig, place it into A Box. And when they took it out of the pig and placed it in the A Box is when I was standing in a position that I could see what went on. And I waited for, what was it, [ 00: 15: 00] twenty- five years to see that. It was kind of disappointing a little bit because, is that all it is? Well, yeah, a twenty- five- year buildup, it’s hard to imagine it not being disappointing. Because very few people got to see it. Very few people got to see it. Well, I knew that some of the scientists and the DoD people, your test engineers, because DNA, or Defense Nuclear Agency, was our main customer. It’s got a new name now. They’ve renamed that. Something to do with weapons. I’ve heard it a couple of times [ Defense Threat Reduction Agency ( DTRA)]. So to go back to kind of march through our chronology here, when you say “ field experiments,” that means actually putting the experiments into the field? Yes. You weren’t a part of the process of choosing the experiments. You were the people that somebody said, “ we want to do this,” and you make it happen. And we did it. The scientists would come to us with the impossible. They’d want to put a ten- foot plug in a nine- foot hole. Really! And we did it. This is again at T Tunnel, they brought in a hunk of granite, probably weighed ten, twenty ton. Huge. And it was the exact same size as our drift that we drove. And there was a place where they had drilled them holes. And this was a huge piece of granite, you know, three times the size of a car, and they had strategically placed UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 holes in this and holes all the way through, part of it was polished to high polish on it, it was shaped really weird, and that was put in ground zero and then all the experiment line- of- sight pipes were hooked up. And what that was for, I never did ever find out what it was for, but that’s what they would do, the scientists. Sometimes we weren’t on the same page; they were in their own little world. But they knew that we would get it done for them. Somehow, someway, we got that thing in that. It took us four or five days, but we got it back in that and placed into that tunnel. And correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like your job was to get on their page, or to make their page— Fit ours. Yes. They already had theirs. Theirs was set in concrete or, you know, it was written in— so we had to figure out a way to accommodate that. I don’t know if we mentioned this yet, but what year was [ Distant] Zenith? Do you remember? I can find out. Let’s see if I can see the— Distant Zenith. Let’s see if I can find it. [ Sound of pages turning] If you’re looking for that, I guess— I didn’t want to break you from your chronology. Oh, that’s all right. Distant Zenith, September 19, ’ 91. And so the eighteen- month thing, you found out, what, early summer, late spring of— We probably knew they were going to do at least three events at P Tunnel when they first started it. We knew that we had at least three test beds to do, so it was, oh, we knew in plenty of time to get ready for the Distant Zenith, because it wasn’t the first one that we did. I think Disko Elm was one of the first we did at P Tunnel. Again, I’d have to go back and make sure because there were about five events that we did at P Tunnel. At N Tunnel there’s must’ve been— because that went on for forty years. I mean it, oh, no, since 1958. They worked underground at N Tunnel UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 [ 00: 20: 00] forever. And I was one of the last human beings out of the old part of the tunnel. Now it’s full of water. I was still employed there when they— we called it “ button it up.” They removed as much hazardous material as they could from the tunnel and all them miles and miles and miles, literally miles of drift that was in that mountain, they went out with big containment plugs, closed the doors, and turned the pumps off and virtually turned all of the power off underground. So you literally were one of the guys that turned out the lights as you left. I was the one that called the department office and got permission to call Dispatch and turn the power off at N Tunnel. It’s kind of like putting an old friend to sleep, because I’d worked there fifteen years and had supported my family fifteen years with that tunnel. So I got to be there at the last, and there was no big fanfare, nothing. I just walked over to the telephone and called Chris Evans, the dispatcher in charge of Electrical, and I said, Shut her down. And so they got the lineman out and shut all the power to the transformers off, and she went to sleep. Started filling full of water. And that was ten years ago, so there’s a lot of water in that mountain right today. In fact. OK, so where were we in our—? Well, I’ll just read some of the statistics from this Distant Zenith, and the amount of tunneling that was done, there was about 4,450 foot of tunnel. It was began October ’ 89 and completed June ’ 90, the mining was completed. [ Reading from Distant Zenith statistic sheet]. [ 00: 22: 02] End Track 2, Disc 1. [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 3, Disc 1. And we’re back. OK, where’d we leave off at? Tunneling? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 Yes. [ Reading from Distant Zenith statistic sheet]. There was about 4,450 foot of tunnel. We began mining in October of ’ 89 and completed mining in June 1990. And the overburden or the ground cover over ground zero was 880 feet. Ground zero, distance from portal, 4,900 feet. Amount of earth removed, 29,496 cubic yards. Line- of- sight pipe, 800 foot long, diameter from six inches to twelve foot. The event bag, which was a nylon type of material that they filled full of exotic gases, it was 550 foot long. What’s that for, again? They filled it full of several exotic gases. For what, I don’t know. I don’t know exactly what they were after by filling it full of gas. And the diameter was fifteen- and- a- half foot to twenty foot. Volume, 138,300 cubic feet. And they filled this full of gas and I’m not sure what it was for, but it more or less virtually was just a big balloon inside of the tunnel, and it was 550 foot long and they filled it full of these gases. They had bottles and bottles and bottles of different types of gases, and a little bit of this and a little bit of that, and then that was filled up and kept full until zero time. I guess it’s the X- rays or something. I don’t know. Or the EMP, the electromagnetic pulse that comes from off the device when it’s detonated. I never did find out why they did that. And some things I knew better than to ask too much about. And there was 400 miles of cabling, from fiber optic to coax cables, and there was 1,200 channels. The budget was forty- seven million [ dollars]. And that’s just the budget for this. The overall budget I know was bigger than that. The picture was a lot bigger than just here. But the forty- seven million is just the budget for the Distant Zenith test? Project. Yes. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 Well, that’s, you know, fifty million is fifty million. And adjusted for inflation nowadays, I mean, you know. How much? What is it? I don’t know, maybe sixty, seventy million now. I bet. Yes, seventy. And we couldn’t afford to do business the way we did today because of safety and the rules on radiation exposure, that has changed tremendously. In fact, we couldn’t do it. The way we used to do it, we couldn’t do it. They don’t have enough money to get it done. Is that good or bad? I’m going to say it’s a little bit of both. It’s bad in one sense because you lose out on the knowledge, but then if they’re tasked to do it a better— get the same results a better, cheaper, safer way— and that was one of the things that we were challenged again and again and again was we got to do it cheaper, we’ve got to do it safer— and usually it was somebody paid for it in blood. It was usually something happened that we had to. We had to clean up our act. Or there would be a leak or something would happen. And that���s how they learned, by doing, because they never knew for sure what was going to happen. In the early days, they didn’t know how big the device was going to be. They just kind of guessed at it, see. Some of them went over yield; some went under yield. And there’s no way they could figure out— in fact I had one scientist tell me that the device, it has a mind of its own. When it’s first detonated, it goes out, trying to escape, you know, the path of least resistance, and then it goes back in again and comes out again with more power. If you can hold it that time, you got it. It’ll contain itself then. [ 00: 05: 00] OK, so we’re still fairly early in the process, right? Is there anything you want to say about the process of fielding the experiments? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 Well, the mining entailed, too, before we could ever field the experiments, the mining had to be completed and there were a lot of plugs, closures, places for closures that. If we had a picture, you could see it better, but for me to explain, in this series of drifts that we’d mined, there had to be places for closures, which would seal the radiation, the debris, everything off from going down the line- of- sight pipe. It had to be done in nanoseconds. And during the mining process, we had to superharden the ground, and that was done with ground support rock bolts that were fully epoxied up to twenty foot long— twenty- five foot long some of them, twenty- four foot long— which were fully grouted and they were on four- foot centers. Every four foot in that mile of tunnel or 5,000 foot of tunnel had to be supported so it wouldn’t cave in because of the ground shock that would go through from when you detonated. It would do some funny things. I mean it would turn concrete to water under that much pressure. Concrete would flow just like water. One second ago it was hard, up to so many psi [ pounds per square inch], say twenty thousand psi, and then close to ground zero where some of these containment features were, the concrete, the scientists said it would just flow just like water. I couldn’t figure out how it did it. Yeah, that’s hard for me to wrap my brain around. In fact, if you could get down in 15 Shaft, that was done in granite, at Pile Driver and Hard Hat, those code names. They did it for NORAD [ North American Air Defense Command] over at Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado Springs, Colorado. This was a test to see if that communication complex would survive a direct nuclear hit. And they had a round drift, oh, I’d say ten foot in diameter, driven about, oh, eighty feet that I could see. And they lined that drift with concrete and rebar. Rebar was one- inch rebar on about four- inch centers, so it was just a solid mass of rebar and concrete. And when that device went off, it squeezed the tunnel down and took this round cylinder and flattened it. And I dare you to find a crack in that concrete. Now you know UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 that if you take a round cylinder of concrete and [ hitting hands together] crush it, it’s going to crack and fracture, but under that pressure and that ground, it didn’t do it. And I used to go take people back there and I’d say, Now, look at this. And you could put water on it, because you can usually see any hairline fractures or something, and I defy you to find a crack in that concrete. How that happened, I don’t know. It’s just one of the things that under that tremendous amount of pressure, in nanoseconds, just in quick time, it just did some weird things. And other places it just tore it all to billy goat. It did. But in this one particular drift, and it was— now when they were pointed right at it, they would survive, but when they were crossways, they would destroy it. They know that. So if they’re looking right at the device or at ground zero, the shock waves coming this way, it would survive more so than if it was crossways. If it was crossways, it just wiped it out, like a tsunami. Same thing. It’s much the same kind of energy that you’d get out of a hurricane, a tsunami, tornado. All that huge amount of energy that’s released there in such little places that does weird things. It was. It was mind- boggling to me. And the geologists that did it, they’d shake their head, too, yeah, because you couldn’t second- guess it. You couldn’t get one ahead of them. That was fascinating, but it kept me going, because I [ 00: 10: 00] figured, how in the world would this stuff—? How and why. And in some places it completely failed. Other places it would stand like nothing ever happened. Like you wouldn’t believe that two or I’ll say five hours ago, there was all that energy and electromagnetic pulse and all that stuff was going down the line- of- sight pipe and then five hours later we’re standing there without any protection. Just like nothing happened. No gases, no nothing. That’s how good they got at it. Just like walking back into a laboratory that had a nuclear device go off in it, hours before, five hours before, and we���d walk right back in and no reading or nothing. I think Distant Zenith was one of UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 them. We went right back in and it was completely clean. Everything worked like they knew what they were doing. So I guess what comes first? Do you mine for ground zero? Is that what it’s called? Yeah, we go all the way to ground zero with both the line- of- sight heading— that’s where the experiment is— and then we have what they call a bypass which is driven parallel, about eighty to a hundred feet away parallel, and so when once they field and put in the line- of- sight pipe and then concrete it in, because we’ll pump. Let’s see, concrete and grout in Distant Zenith, there were 10,953 cubic yards of concrete and grout used to seal that tunnel, because you’d put the line- of- sight pipe and that line- of- sight pipe would start at six inches. That’s where the device would go, right here. And then it was like a megaphone. It would go all the way up to twelve foot in diameter. And then they would pump a vacuum on that. It would be down to I don’t know how many microns. It would get right down to simulate outer space. That’s what they were trying to achieve, the same conditions as outer space. Is that on all the tests or this one in particular was supposed to simulate outer space? Most all of them. Most all of them had a line- of- sight pipe in them. Now in the early days back in, oh, the late fifties, they did it many different ways. They were learning. Then once the moratorium [ occurred] where they had to contain them and they had to go underground, they did things a lot different. Had to. OK. So you start at ground zero with the line- of- sight pipe, and then kind of describe to me what the process is to field the experiments once you have ground zero and the line- of- sight pipe. Well, the places for the experiments were designed when they assembled the line- of- sight pipe, usually in Spokane, Washington. That’s where they made a lot of the line- of- sight for the test site was then in Spokane, by Boeing. And they would ship it to the test site. And in the pipe were UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 certain grids and brackets and things that are already put in there, strategically put in certain construction stations, and once that was in and cemented up to the end of the pipe to contain it, then there were doors, much like pressure hatches. You would open that door up and scientists could go in and then they’d hang a warhead, a regular end of a warhead, they would hang them in the pipe, with the device in it. They even did that one time. They hung a live device inside of a warhead inside the pipe, because they wanted that shine to hit the warhead, because it does something to it. They disarm them. It disarms them. That’s why they wanted, with the MX [ missile experimental] system, if they did have a, say a submarine launched a missile into outer space or it come off of a satellite. They had missiles and warheads in satellites. They’d deploy ten at once, you know, just from wherever. And they could get close to that satellite and detonate a device and the shine from it would disarm it. Something in the circuit worked the electromagnetic pulse, and again this is way over my head but that’s what they were trying to achieve. Well, if it was over your head, it’s a mile over mine. So with the line- of- sight pipe, is there only one line- of- sight pipe? Note: Photographs and diagrams Mr. Campbell refers to are from The Containment of Underground Nuclear Explosions, U. S. Congress, Office of Technical Assessment, OTA- ISC- 414, GOP, October 1989. Page numbers indicate explanatory images. [ 00: 15: 00] The line- of- sight drift and a line- of- sight pipe— well, here, that shows you. See, there’s the tunnel, see,