Transcript of interview with Pat and Lamar Marchese by Claytee White, January 16, 2008

An Interview with Patricia and Lamar Marchese An Oral History Conducted by Claytee D. White The Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas 2003 - 2008 ©The Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2007 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Director and Editor: Claytee D. White Assistant Editors: Gloria Homol and Delores Brownlee Transcribers: Kristin Hicks and Laurie Boetcher Interviewers and Project Assistants: Suzanne Becker, Nancy Hardy, Joyce Moore, Andres Moses, Laura Plowman, Emily Powers, Dr. Dave Schwartz ii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of Dr. Harold Boyer and the Library Advisory Committee. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank the university for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader's understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases, photographic sources (housed separately) accompany the collection as slides or black and white photographs. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project. Additional transcripts may be found under that series title. Claytee D. White, Project Director Director, Oral History Research Center University Nevada, Las Vegas iv Table of Contents Family history; early childhood in Johnstown, Pennsylvania; living on a farm surrounded by relatives; mother worked outside the home; Lamar born in Tampa, Florida; mother's heritage linked to Tampa Bay, Florida, in the 1840's; Marriage and cultural differences; graduating from University of South Florida; relocating to Las Vegas in 1972; silk screening classes at the University; "Queen of Las Vegas Culture"; employment with the City of Las Vegas and Clark County; Joan Snyder forming the Rainbow Company Theatre 1-9 Creating Civic Symphony with the Charleston Heights Arts Center; consulting work with Allied Arts Council; Charles Hunsberger and the Clark County Library District in 1972; merging City of Las Vegas library branches; library programs, shows and concerts; communications degree from the University of Florida Graduate College; December 1975, incorporating the Nevada Public Radio Corporation with the State of Nevada; Chairman of the board of directors; early board members; kick off of Nevada Public Radio, March 24th 1980; Nevada's Public Radio initial format; Hearts of Space, the ambient music; acquiring a second radio license for second radio station for classical music and news; consolidation of the Las Vegas Library to Clark County Library District; selling bonds for new libraries; 10-21 Programming Clark County libraries; implementing reciprocal borrowing agreement for the State of Nevada and the Nevada library card; unification of academic libraries and public libraries ; programming through the City Cultural Recreation Department; budget analyst and chief lobbyists for the county; testifying before the senate taxation committee; mural arts projects through the public arts program; working for Parks and Recreation cultural division; environmental projects; arts, cultural on the Strip; musician union vs. canned music; fund raising with Bill Boyd and Len Homsby and Bill Laub, Sr 22-34 Expansion and the Reynolds Foundation; enveloping the State of Nevada through public broadcast; constructing translators and radio stations throughout the tri-state (Arizona, California, and Utah); future growth by means of the local government and nonprofit agencies; 30-plus year career and retirement; traveling; committee work after retirement; long-lasting arts and cultural legacies; 23-46 v Preface Pat Marchese grew up in Johnston, Pennsylvania, and Lamar was reared in Tampa, Florida. Pat was raised on a farm surrounded by relatives. Lamar takes pride in his mother heritage, which can be traced to Tampa Bay, Florida, in the early 1840's. Pat and Lamar graduated from the University of South Florida and relocated to Las Vegas in 1972. Pat's remarkable 30-plus year passion includes working for the city of Las Vegas and Clark County, Nevada. She created numerous art and cultural programs which consist of the Civic Symphony, Charleston Heights Arts Center, Rainbow Company Theatre, along with consulting work for the Allied Arts Council. In addition, to her creating art and cultural agendas, she became a budget analyst and chief lobbyists for the county, testifying before the Senate Taxation Committee. She implemented through the public arts program, a Mural Arts Series, the Parks and Recreation Cultural Division, and culture on the Strip. Pat executed the grant that ensured the necessary funding for the expansion for public broadcasting radio stations throughout California, Utah, Arizona and Nevada. She's certainly worthy of her title "Queen of Las Vegas Culture". Lamar's amazing 30-plus year's calling comprises putting into action an abundant number of libraries programs for the State of Nevada along with establishing the first public broadcast radio station in Nevada. His library accomplishments include merging the City's libraries branches, library programs, shows, concerts, unification of academic libraries and public libraries and the first reciprocal borrowing agreement for the State of Nevada with the Nevada library card. He consolidated Las Vegas Libraries and the Las Vegas Clark County Library District. He also sold bonds for the development of future libraries. Lamar's broadcasting achievements consist of incorporating the Nevada Public Radio Corporation with State of Nevada, serving as Chairman of the board for NPRC, constructing broadcasting translators and radio stations throughout the tri-state and enveloping the State of Nevada through public broadcasting. Combined, Pat and Lamar Marchese have served the Las Vegas community for over six decades. Thanks to the Marcheses, broadcasting is thriving throughout the tri-state area, libraries are blossoming and cultural programs are flourishing. They are looking forward to retiring, traveling, spending time with loved ones, and most of all, Pat and Lamar time together. Vi ORAL HISTORY RESEARCH CENTER AT UNLV Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project Use Agreement Name of Narrator: Name of Interviewerr:: dui iBe 7), We, the above named, give to lljfe Oral History Research Center of UNLV, the recorded interview(s) initiated on _ as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to tire University of Nevada Las Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. 1 here will be no compensation for any interviews. Signature of Narrator Date Library Special Collections 4505 Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, Nevada 89154-7070 (702)895-2222 ire oCinterviewer ORAL HISTORY RESEARCH CENTER AT UNLV Boyer Early Las Vegas Oral History Project Use Agreement Name of Narrator: Lam r- 'CA e a — —y Name of Interviewer: L L //7 T£A~ .. / ), l/mrm We, the above named, give tatlie Oral History Research Center of UNLV, the recorded interview(s) initiated on / lifal&ODtf as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to die University of Nevada Las Vegas, legal tide and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude die right of die interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. There will be no compensadon for any interviews. ^>•"1 1 / ) ( ? / < Signature of Narrator ) Date ' Library Special Collections 4505 Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, Nevada 89154-7070 (702) 895-2222 1 I m Claytee White. This is January 16th, 2008. I got it right. And I'm with Lamar and Patricia Marchese here in the Reading Room of Special Collections. So how are you today? Fine. Thankyou. Andyou? Wonderful. Very good. Very good. Okay, good. Because I have two people, this is going to be a little different. So who wants to go first? Age before beauty. (All laughing). And we're going to go back and forth. And I can tell already we're going to have a lot of fun. So because this started with us talking to Lamar ™ Right. So I'm going to start with Patricia. Oh, okay. Patricia, could you just tell me a little about your early life? Could you tell me where you grew up and your mother and father's names and what they did for a living? Sure. I was born in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. I lived on a rural farm with my grandmother and grandfather. When each of the kids got married — and they had 12 of them I think or 11 of them — they got a big parcel of land and built a house. And so we lived in a rural area with all my relatives. My dad's family was from Pittsburgh. His name is Walter John Davis. And at the time he worked in the steel mills at Bethlehem Steel in Johnstown running a crane. And then later on we moved to Florida when I was about ten. And he got a job at the telephone company as an equipment installer. Let's see. And your mom? Oh, yeah. Poor mom, right? My mom was Julia May Brannigan. And so she was the one with the big Irish clan that we all lived with. And when we lived in Pennsylvania, she was a mom, but she 2 also worked in like a Walgreen's counter. She was a waitress. She met Gene Kelly there. Yeah, she did. He's from Johnstown, too. And his mother's dance studio was right across from the Walgreen's where she worked. And she was very pretty and had gorgeous teeth. She was a billboard for Sunkist one time. And then, anyway, when we moved to Florida, she started her own business after my brother was born. It was a childcare center called Tiny Tims. And she did some waitressing here and there, as well. So now, with the kind of career that you've had, did your mother working outside the home influence that at all? I think it did. I think it influenced the fact that, you know, I could see that it was okay for women, you know, not to necessarily choose housewife as a career. And because my family was from Pennsylvania — we weren't in poverty or anything. But we did live, you know, in Appalachia, in that general area. And so I was the first person in my family to go to college. Wow. That's exciting. Yeah. My dad had gone for two years in Pittsburgh. So where did you go to school? USF in Florida, University of South Florida. Okay. Good. Degree in humanities and fine arts. Fantastic. Okay. And we're going to talk a lot more about that and where that took you. So, Lamar, would you tell me the same thing about your childhood, how you grew up, your parents? Well, I was born in Tampa, Florida. My mother Catherine, last name was Palmer, her maiden name, was from an old, old Florida family that went back to the foundations of the city of Tampa. Fler relatives were Robles who were of Spanish decent who came to Tampa Bay area in the 1840s and were a pioneer Florida family. So that on my mom's side. My dad's given name was . He went by Tom. But his given name was Gitano Marchese. And he was a son of a — my grandfather emigrated from Sicily in about 1905. Came over. He was a barber originally and then was a storekeeper. And my dad was one of four children. He 3 dropped out of school in the sixth grade, never was an educated man, had to go to work. So he always had been — he was storekeeper. He had all these combinations of — sort of odd combinations of, you know, bar, grocery store, fish store, kind of weird combinations of things. And, anyway, we grew up in a very sort of middle-class neighborhood. We knew all of our neighbors. We grew up with a group of friends that were neighborhood kids, you know, that ran together all the time and went to the same schools together. I had an older brother two years older than me and I had a sister that was one year younger than me. So I was the middle kid. Middle kids have to try harder, you know. And they're not supposed to be well-adjusted. Is that true? I don't know. I think I did okay. Okay, good. I guess I did all right. So I went to neighborhood public schools. Walked to school down the street to Broward Elementary School where I met this one right here, my wife. We met in the sixth grade. Oh, wow. She came down when she was coming down from — when her parents moved down from Pennsylvania. She lived in the same neighborhood. And it was a group of - I went to the same junior high school, the same high school. So we were all in the same neighborhood. And I think I had a pretty good childhood. My parents, unfortunately, got divorced when I was about 16. And there was some tension there in the household. And I think also it wasn't helped by the - in that period of time when my parents were married it wasn't acceptable for Italians to marry white girls. And so they were - so I think my parents were rejected on both sides of the family. From my dad's side, you know, they had married what they used to call a cracker, a Florida cracker. So they didn't like that. And then her parents didn't like that she had married an Italian. So there wasn't any real support I think from the family side for their marriage. And there are cultural differences. And so that didn't work out very well. Anyway, they got divorced. And they actually got remarried and they got divorced again, which was not a very — * 4 They got remarried to each other? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. But there was some love there, real love. Well, there was. But there were just a lot of other things going on. My dad used to drink, unfortunately. And he was a wonderful man when he wasn't drinking. When he was drinking he was not a nice man. Okay. You know, it's funny how when you say an Italian marriage ~ you know, when I think about race relations in this country ~ Right. Right. Right. — I forget that there are other problems other than — Oh, yeah. — black and white problems. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, when they got married in 1940 -- so they were dating in the late 30s -- that wasn't accepted. That wasn't accepted. You know, the Latinos had their part of town and they went with their people. And the crackers went over on that side of town and they have their own thing. So it wasn't -- it just wasn't accepted. Now, certainly it is now. And even when I was growing up, a high school was a mixture of — because we had a lot of Cuban kids. We had a lot of Italian kids. And by that time in the 50s and 60s, there was no problem with it. So tell me about college. Well, I went to the University of South Florida, too. That was the private --1 mean it was the public university in Tampa. It was brand-new. And I wanted to go to University of Florida, Gainesville. My brother was two years ahead of me. He was already in school there. And my mother by that time was divorced and she didn't make enough money to send us to school. And so I stayed at home because I could stay at home and I had a job part-time job. I could make a little bit of money to pay for school. And it was relatively inexpensive to go to school at that time. The tuition was not very high for in-state students. And it was actually a really good school. I got a 5 good education there. And so I lived at home and went to school and graduated in 1964. Now, what was your major? I had a degree in social sciences, a general degree in the social sciences. Okay. That's wonderful. So now, when and how did you come to Las Vegas? Well, we came to Las Vegas in 1972. Pat and I were living in a small town in Kentucky. I was working at Morehead State University, which is in eastern Kentucky, and living in another town further to the west called Mount Sterling, Kentucky. And I had been there for about three years. And it was a federally funded project that I was working on that was soft money and it was funded Irom year to year. And the money was going to go away. We knew that it wasn't going to get re-upped whenever money ran out. And so I started looking for work. While I was working I had met some people that were in the library field through some writing I had done and some research I had done when I was at the university. So what happened was a person that I had met through these associations put me in contact with a fellow named Charles Hunsberger, who was the director of the Clark County -- at the time it was called the Clark County Public Library. And the library had just gotten started about a year before that. So she told him about me. And I was in Kentucky. He called me from Chicago where the ALA, American Library Association, was having a meeting and called me up and said could I come up and talk to him, interview with him. So I went up and talked to him. And he was looking for somebody that wasn't a librarian that had a background in media that could sort of do all the things he wanted to do in a library that were nontraditional because he was a very - he had a very expansive view of the libraries, I thought a very innovative mind and a guy who thought that libraries were places where information was kept, not books. That was just one form of information. So anyway, he interviewed me and offered me a job. And I accepted and came. So, Pat, were you already married at that point? Oh, yeah. Yes. And our son had just been born. So we came across the country in a U-Haul trailer with an 11-month-old baby - and he's going to kill me for this - who had the worst case of diaper rash you've ever seen. 6 He'll never know. We won't tell him. Well, he had always had cloth diapers. When he was a little baby — Right. My grandmother actually made him diapers when he was little. In cloth diapers. So the first time he had ever had on Pampers was when we were moving because we were — you know, you had to ~ you couldn't wash them out and do everything you did with cloth diapers. So he got this terrible case of diaper rash. But, yeah, anyway, we were married in 1966. So this was several years later. '72. '72. Right. Well, yeah. We moved out in August in '72. Ooh. How did you like the weather when you arrived? Not so much. In fact, I kind of came kicking and screaming because one of the things I was doing was - Rolling Stone had just serialized Hunter Thompson's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. So I m reading it, you know, in the seat of the U-Haul, saying to him, "Turn around, turn around." She wasn't too happy with the idea. Right. So it was really hot. And he turned one years old August the 23rd. And we were staying at the U.S. Motel on the corner of Fremont and Boulder Highway. Is that called the Four Corners or something? Anyway — Five Points. In this little motel. And his birthday party was a match in a cupcake. He was perfectly happy. But, yeah, he didn't know. That's great. Tell me what it looked like. Compare it to the other places that you'd lived because you had lived in Pittsburgh. You were from Pennsylvania, Florida, Kentucky and now here. Could you compare? Yeah. It was really almost a culture shock to me because I was doing a lot of artwork then at the university in Kentucky. And I was doing the graphic work for the university. It was just part-time. So coming out here, having left all that lushness and green and almost, you know, tropical splendor that you have in Kentucky and Florida and then the various seasons, you know, it was like coming to a dirt pile. 7 The first thing she asked me when I said we're going to come to Las Vegas, she said, "Do they have trees there?" We had never been here. We had never been to Las Vegas. We had been to California. We had driven ~ no. That was later. No, no. That was when we were in Gainesville. Oh, yeah. We had camped across the country. When I was in graduate school, we drove across the country — To San Francisco. — because we had friend that lived in San Francisco. So we had driven across northern Nevada. We went through Reno. And I remember we go through Sacramento and over to San Francisco. But we had never been to Las Vegas. So was there anything that you found fascinating about it when you first arrived? Well, I was — yeah. I was pretty much not real receptive about the whole thing. But I did sign up for some classes at the university here because I did silk-screening. And it was an opportunity for me to be able to use the studios and to do some work. And then we became fast friends with Tom Holder, who's still with the university, and Cathy — Art professor. He's an art professor. Right. And Cathy Kaufman. So they became, you know, the first kind of like a core group of people that, you know, our group that we worked in. So it was really hard for me to appreciate the subtlety of the desert at the time. And it was very small then. And somehow or another I thought it was going to look like, you know, adobes, kind of like Santa Fe. As you know it doesn't - or didn't. So, yeah, it took me awhile to adjust I think. And especially - and I mention the art because I think the effect on not just me coming to a completely different environment, but also coming and seeing the inspiration of the landscape, which I didn't think was much of an inspiration. You know, it was kind of like a one-two punch. But I got over it. Good. So how does it feel to be labeled now "Queen of Las Vegas Culture"? Well, you know, it's an honor. I mean I think my whole career has been pretty much of a privilege. Could you tell me about that? Could you tell me about going to work for the city and then the county? Could you just give us an overview of what you -- Sure. Well, I started — I answered an ad. The city was looking for somebody to do cultural 8 programming as part of their recreation department in -- '731 guess it was, right? Two? Yeah. I think'73. So August of '72 you arrived. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. So it was '73. Anyway, so they had all these people that were involved in the arts in town, which was mostly the Watercolor Society and the Allied Arts Council, sitting on this interview panel. And I remember the tests that they gave us like, you know, who painted the Mona Lisa? It was obviously written by somebody who wasn't really deep into the arts. So did you do well? Yes. Okay, good. So I was offered the job and I took it. And this base they had for me to program at the beginning was Reed Whipple, which the city hall had just vacated because they had used it as justice court. And then they gave it over to the recreation department and said, well, okay, make a cultural center out of it. Of course, there was no money at the time. It was the temporary city hall, too, when they were building the city hall. Right. Right. And so, anyway, I worked there. And I formed a bond with the Allied Arts Council because they were pretty much the only sort of umbrella group for the arts in town. And I did a lot of work with the Watercolor Society. Then, you know, the classic I didn't know I couldn't do it, so I did it. We formed the Rainbow Company Children's Theater with Jody Johnston, who is Totie Fields' daughter. Could you just talk about that company just a bit? Well, actually it started with Joan Snyder, who did a lot of work here at the university. She was an actress. Her husband built the shopping center up here on Maryland Par lew ay that now I think has theater in it. And it was originally built as a theater. It was a theater in the round. I'm trying to think of what else was in that center. But I think there — So not the Boulevard. You're talking about the — No. Up here south and on the right side of the university on Maryland Parkway. And there's like a shopping center. And in the corner of the shopping center right here was an actual theater that 9 was built for Joan's company. So she asked me to be on the founding board of the company, which I did. What was the name of her company? Do you remember? No. I don't remember right off the top of my head. Anyway, we talked about — we would have like meetings and talk about what was the mission and what we were going to do. And one of the things that we were interested in doing, but yet ultimately sort of rejected it because we had so much else to do with theater in Las Vegas because, you know, I mean it was a massive task — and we thought about doing children's theater. So that didn't happen. So then with my job, one day Jody walked in and said, you know, I'd like to have a job. And we talked about it. And she had done children's theater in Texas. So anyway, we just clicked. I mean we just really had many of the same ideas. She's hysterical, has a great sense of humor. With a mother like that, you would expect it. And we just kind of built it from the ground up. And the idea was to be a company where children could not just act, but could learn all the craft of theater. So the way it's structured is they have open auditions for the performances. But then they also have open auditions for what they call the ensemble. And if you make it into the ensemble, then you do lighting, sound, costume, scenery, the whole business. So you learn all the parts of the craft. And I mean the kids really do it, too. It's not like somebody's standing there and they're watching. Anyway, so it just - it took after. She was very talented. We had Brian Krai, who was a friend of hers and came to work. He was a playwright. So he did, and I think still does, a lot of original work for the Rainbow Company. Why the name Rainbow? Well, we were brainstorming. You know, what do we need to call this thing? We wanted to brand it that it's something fun and kind of magical and something kids would kind of get involved with. And we were originally going to call it the Peanut Butter and Jelly Players. PB and J. PB and J. Right. And then we decided nay. So we did the Rainbow Company. And then I did the logo and the photos and everything for the brochures. And they got the kids involved. From the 10 beginning it was excellent theater. And by that I mean, yes, it was children's theater and there were children in the plays. There were also adults in the plays. But it was the best theater in town. Wonderful. No hands — you know, no hands down. It won a bunch of awards. Yeah. They were invited to go to the Kennedy Center in Washington. And they were given an award as best children's theater company in the region. So anyway, you know, it was a lot of fun. That's fantastic. So I also got to get involved with starting the Junior Symphony, which later became the Civic Symphony. I worked with "Tasi," which was a local community theater group. Anyway, and we did a lot of galleries and things. And we built the Charleston Heights Arts Center, which was supposed to be a combination of library and art centers, which is what we did. And I think that's really innovative because throughout the city you have those libraries and then you have the art centers beside them. Right. I'm always over at the West Las Vegas Arts Center and Library. And I just love what you guys do. And they seem to be doing a great job over there. West Las Vegas was not built when I left. So anyway, I got to be in kind of I think on the groundfloor. And I remember one time sitting at the table with one of the architects. I was only in my 20s, you know. And I'm sitting there and I'm thinking you know what? If Ms. Barron, my fifth grade teacher, saw me in here, she'd come in and take me out of here and say what do you think you're doing? But if she could see you now. Yeah. So anyway, like I say it was pretty much of a privilege to be able to do that. And then when my daughter was born, I didn't go back to work. I stayed with her for a little bit and did some consulting work with the Allied Arts Council. And then when I went to - you want me go on with the county? Well, I have some specific questions to ask. But when your daughter was born and you got 1 1 out of there, is that when you went into politics just a bit as a lobbyist? No. That was when I went to work for the county. Oh, okay. So you went to work for the county. So it was — what? — five years with the city, or six years? From '73 to '80. No. Julie was born in '79. Yeah. But I officially left in '80 because I had maternity leave. And then I stayed home for about a year and a half or two years and did the consulting work for the Allied Arts Council. We did a business in the arts study. Then we were at a social gathering. And the gentleman, Bruce Spaulding, who was the county manager at the time, said, well, you know, okay, Marchese, when are you going back to work? And I said, oh, I don't know. I'm thinking about it. He said, well, why don't you come work for me? So I said okay. Or I said I'd talk to him about it. So I went and got a job as a senior budget analyst because I had done a lot of budget as like — by the time I left the city my cultural thing was a division and it included the arts and special events. And we ran the city libraries under a contract with the county district library. We had historic preservation. And we had community schools, which was the first situation where we used the local junior highs as recreation centers for people. So when school closed we sent staff over and it became a recreation center. And it's still running. It's Fremont Junior High. So, anyway, that was kind of like the breadth of what we did at the city. And before we talk to Lamar just for a moment, the Allied Arts Council, that's part of the city? No. No. It was a local nonprofit that was an umbrella group for arts groups. So tell me just a little more about that and how that's operated, what they do. Well, it's no longer in business. It's defunct now. Yeah. And it was basically an organization that was to help the arts groups to work together and help them to market, help them to have visibility in the community, help with getting grants, sort of 12 being a liaison with the State Arts Council for funding and that sort of thing. So it was an organization that was here long before we came here. So it was like one of the oldies. But as soon as we got here we got ~ I got on the board not very much longer after that. You know, it was a much smaller community there. And the arts actually — people sort of met on a monthly basis and would talk about what they were doing. And it was like the dance company, the symphony, the visual artists, the theater people, you know, the whole sort of breadth of — Dance. Yeah. That would get together and talk about what they were doing. They put out a newsletter. So it would sort of publicize what was going on artistically in town so that people would come to the events and whatever. So is there still a need for something like that here do you think? Well, the State Arts Council seems to think so. And I know that they're working to try to get something put together that would serve that purpose. And would the two of you become involved in that? Possibly. I mean the concept of arts council is one that many communities have. The one here I think went out of business ~ what? — how many years ago? When Constance was running it. Right. Five or six years ago at least, maybe more. Right. And, anyway, it just went out of business because of funding difficulties. And then nobody's ever gotten it back together again. There have been some efforts. Like Pat said the State Arts Council, which is the state agency which is up in Carson City, you know, they would like to have an arts council formed for their own purposes, whatever. But it has to be one of things which - it can't be imposed by them. It has to come from the roots. And nobody seems to be willing to put it together or make it happen. So it hasn't. And that's why I think it kind of faded away because the arts organizations themse