Interview with Patricia George, with Virginia Sanchez, September 11, 2004

Nevada Test Site Oral History Project University of Nevada, Las Vegas Interview with Patricia George and Virginia Sanchez September 11, 2004 Ely, Nevada Interview Conducted By Mary Palevsky © 2007 by UNLV Libraries Oral history is a method of collecting historical information through recorded interviews conducted by an interviewer/ researcher with an interviewee/ narrator who possesses firsthand knowledge of historically significant events. The goal is to create an archive which adds relevant material to the existing historical record. Oral history recordings and transcripts are primary source material and do not represent the final, verified, or complete narrative of the events under discussion. Rather, oral history is a spoken remembrance or dialogue, reflecting the interviewee’s memories, points of view and personal opinions about events in response to the interviewer’s specific questions. Oral history interviews document each interviewee’s personal engagement with the history in question. They are unique records, reflecting the particular meaning the interviewee draws from her/ his individual life experience. Produced by: The Nevada Test Site Oral History Project Departments of History and Sociology University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 89154- 5020 Director and Editor Mary Palevsky Principal Investigators Robert Futrell, Dept. of Sociology Andrew Kirk, Dept. of History The material in the Nevada Test Site Oral History Project archive is based upon work supported by the U. S. Dept. of Energy under award number DEFG52- 03NV99203 and the U. S. Dept. of Education under award number P116Z040093. Any opinions, findings, and conclusions or recommendations expressed in these recordings and transcripts are those of project participants— oral history interviewees and/ or oral history interviewers— and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U. S. Department of Energy or the U. S. Department of Education. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Patricia George and Virginia Sanchez September 11, 2004 Conducted by Mary Palevsky Table of Contents Introduction: Patricia George: birth, family background, job as community trainer and researcher for Duckwater Shoshone Indian Reservation, involvement of family in nuclear testing 1 Virginia Sanchez talks about the DOE dose reconstruction study and her belief that Native peoples were considered “ insignificant” in the study 3 Virginia Sanchez: birth, family background, work with Western Shoshone Tribe as administrative assistant and with Citizen Alert Native American Advisory Board as a Native advisor 5 Virginia Sanchez talks about death of brother, activist Joe Sanchez and birth of daughter, and describes first visit to the NTS to protest nuclear testing 7 Virginia Sanchez and Patricia George discuss community research, memories of testing and fallout in Duckwater, lifestyle of people 10 Patricia George discusses her research on Native lifestyles, people’s recollections of health effects, the “ community healing” process, and continuing work on projects 14 Virginia Sanchez talks about interaction with DOE on dose reconstruction study, Yucca Mountain Project, more community activism, gathering stories from Native peoples 17 Virginia Sanchez and Patricia George talk about experiences growing up as Native people 20 Virginia Sanchez remarks on notion of “ acceptable risk” in nuclear testing 21 Virginia Sanchez discusses Native American land rights and treaties 22 Virginia Sanchez and Patricia George talk about current work on monitoring of transportation of nuclear materials, community outreach and education, application for compensation under RECA 23 Conclusion: Problems Native people encounter locating records for compensation claims and working with federal bureaucracy unfamiliar with Nevada 24 UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 1 Interview with Patricia George and Virginia Sanchez September 11, 2004 in Ely, NV Conducted by Mary Palevsky [ 00: 00: 00] Begin Track 2, Disc 1. [ Opening question about how Ms. George and Ms. Sanchez began their work with Nuclear Risk Management for Native Communities ( NRMNC). Patricia George: I began with the project in August of 1996, I believe; I was invited to apply at that time. They were advertising for a community trainer and researcher and I had some previous experience working with my tribal community, so it was something that I wanted to do; to work with more communities. My first day on the job, I was sent with Virginia [ to Montana] to an environmental justice conference; that was quite an experience right off the bat. Mary Palevsky: You know what I meant to do? I meant to start actually with where you were from and everything and I forgot. So let’s go back to that. Patricia George: I’m originally from this area. My family came from the Duckwater Shoshone Reservation. We probably moved there, I believe, over twenty- five years ago. What year were you born? Patricia George: I was born in 1969 and I’ve lived there all of my life. So now we can hop back over. Had you been to North Dakota [ Montana] before this conference? Patricia George: Montana. No, I’d never been to Montana; it was quite an experience. What was the ad looking for, when you saw this, for this project? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 2 Patricia George: Particularly, a Native person to work with communities and to gather information. Were you at that point— I’m so ignorant of this whole story that I’m hoping to learn from you— were you, in the area generally as a younger person, aware of the atmospheric testing that had gone on and things like that? Because you were born after it was pretty much over. Patricia George: No. My family grew up with the fallout and worked all of them, in the fifties and sixties. My grandparents and my mother and her sibling were raised on the reservation. Because I saw, when I was reading Mr. [ Bennie] Reilley’s transcript, that your granddad, I guess, remembered some of the testing, is that right? I had written down Jack George. Patricia George: That’s my mother’s father. So he remembered seeing some of the atmospheric testing? Patricia George: Yes. Now is he still alive? Patricia George: Yes. So were you sort of aware of this in your everyday growing up life, was it something that you knew had happened? Patricia George: Not at all; not until I got the job and learned more. The research went on and looking back on my family, how they lived out there and how they were raised and everything that they came in contact with and the lifestyle, it was just was a realization. That’s interesting. So when you first were working there, what kinds of things did they train you to do? You’re working with these scientists and professors from Clark [ University], is that right? Patricia George: Yes, I received training from them to be able to go out into my community and educate, and help to research the information we needed; Especially collecting data. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 3 One of the things that interested me when I was reading your articles was this whole issue of the fact that the Native people were not included in some of these studies that the Department of Energy [ DOE] actually did. Bruce Church is quoted in a lot of those articles as saying— and we interviewed Bruce Church actually, but I haven’t read that piece that you guys refer to where, for whatever reason, Native people weren’t involved. What’s your sort of take on why that was the case? Patricia George: Well, DeeDee [ Virginia Sanchez] might want to help me on that. You want to jump in on that, Virginia? Virginia Sanchez: It was probably the dose reconstruction study. I think we were somewhat insignificant. Bruce Church will tell you, Yes, we were considered and that we were [ 00: 05: 00] under the “ shepherd” lifestyle— there were several lifestyles— but my guess is we were insignificant. And I don’t know that Native people were thought of thoroughly in how we lived or how we thought; just as the Nevada Test Site was set up in an area where there was a small population. From what I understand, too, the dose reconstruction study was completed after Joseph Lyon and other doctors began to do the research which then led to the lawsuit. Once all the medical research was tied to the cancers with the Iodine 131 and plutonium with the leukemias, DOE now— I think it was DOE that did the dose reconstruction study— had to answer in some way. And I really do believe that the Native people were insignificant in all of this. You know, when I first arrived, I was talking to a woman who was doing an oral history, not connected with mine through another organization, of these community environmental monitoring programs, CEMP, and one of her questions on her questionnaire was, why were there no Native people that were these community environmental monitors? And so that sort of connects in my mind with this question of why that didn’t occur. I guess one of the articles you UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 4 all have says that some questionnaires went out, a couple of phone calls, but your view is that you just weren’t considered. [ See: Frohmberg, Goble, Sanchez and Quigley. “ The Assessment of Radiation Exposures in Native American Communities.” Risk Analysis, v20 n1] Virginia Sanchez: As monitors. I know that a relative by the name of Doug George, Sr., who just passed away last year, worked at a station along Highway 6 and wrote a letter asking, Why is my hair falling out? They had a dosimeter on the building that went all the way to the extreme, and when he and others began to question the DOE came in and took that off the building. Where was this? Virginia Sanchez: It was right near Duckwater; off Highway 6 about eight miles from the turnoff to Duckwater and State Route 379. Do you have any sense of what era that was in? Virginia Sanchez: We can probably find the letter; we have a copy. It was during the atomic testing. I’d have to go back through my files and find it; I might be able to find it for you tonight. I brought all these old files with me. [ See correspondence provided by Virginia Sanchez, February 17 and 18, 1971, subject “ Duckwater meeting – Baneberry”] Oh, did you? That would be interesting. Virginia Sanchez: Just talking with him, he said they didn’t receive any answers. Now that you’ve begun [ Virginia], why don’t we step back a little bit with you, too. Tell me where you were born and little bit about your background and how you came to be involved in this project. Virginia Sanchez: I was born in 1954 and grew up in Carson City; well, I grew up in Stewart, three miles from Carson City. My father worked for the BIA [ Bureau of Indian Affairs] as a road UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 5 foreman. I moved to Duckwater in 1983 when my grandmother had a stroke and worked for the school for a year, then began working with the tribe as an administrative assistant. In 1984, there was a movement among the Western Shoshone to pull together to fight for Western Shoshone land rights and money. I began as the secretary taking notes. About that time, Bob Fulkerson, with Citizen Alert, and Bill Rosse, a Western Shoshone from Yomba, began coming to the Western Shoshone National Council and raising the issue of testing. Jerry Millett was [ 00: 10: 00] the chief of the Western Shoshone National Council. Carrie and Mary Dann were very active. Pauline Estevez from Timbisha [ Shoshone Tribe, California] and others caravanned down to the test site to find out just what exactly was going on. I can’t remember what year it was. The American Peace Test group was very active. As we drove into Vegas, we went to Ian Zabarte’s mother’s house and heard on the news that we were leading the folks onto the test site. Well, we didn’t know until then. Joel Friedman who is a filmmaker out of New York City was there. We quickly learned what it was about and we did lead the group onto the test site. That was really my introduction. But someone knew you were coming, for you to make this— Virginia Sanchez: Well, Bill Rosse had been working very closely with the American Peace Test group. That was my introduction in the early eighties. I also sat on Citizen Alert’s Native American Advisory Board as a Native advisor. My brother was the program coordinator. He began working, I believe, in 1990 or 1991. It was an activist group in terms of protesting the testing, fighting for religious freedom, and opposing mining in Nevada. My brother was diagnosed with leukemia two to three months after he began the job. I helped him write grants and do reports as he became more and more ill. On July 30, 1993 he died and I was asked to step UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 6 into his position. Joe was very active working with Citizen Alert. He was also one of the initial people to start the Indigenous Environmental Network down in Dilkon, Arizona that was dealing with mining contamination and mining of uranium. And so I began in October of 1993. In December of 1993, as the director of Citizen Alert Native American Program, I was invited to a meeting of the Western Shoshone National Council. Diane Quigley with the Childhood Cancer Research Institute was also invited. Now during 1992, Ian Zabarte was instrumental in doing the Healing Global Wounds event down in Las Vegas and at the test site. He had made connections with Diane then. At that meeting, the questions that the Western Shoshone National Council put to the group centered around Pauline Estevez and other Western Shoshone representatives traveling up from Death Valley to Austin, Nevada, the central meeting place. She described some odd looking deer, buck, that they had seen regularly— full size body, short legs— and they wondered if it had something to do with the fallout. The other questions were about the fallout traveling over Shoshone communities; people were ill and they told us the effects. Diane Quigley, because she had been involved with research and had direct access to Alice Stewart of England said, We’ll find out. We can look into that and find out what DOE has available. They looked at me and said, What can you guys do? And I said, Well, we have direct access to Native communities. We do community education. Diane’s car broke down so she drove back to Duckwater with me and we began talking about what we could pull together. And that was my initial involvement. [ 00: 15: 00] There are a couple of questions I had about what you’ve said. Your brother’s name was—? Virginia Sanchez: Joe. Joe Sanchez. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 7 Joe Sanchez. And what year was he born? Virginia Sanchez: He was born in 1956. We grew up near Carson City, living in Stewart and traveled to Duckwater every summer. In terms of where the cancer came from, we don’t actually know, but my curiosity and getting involved in the research and the atmospheric fallout really stemmed from my brother’s illness. Understandably. That must be hard, losing your brother. Virginia Sanchez: Well, the wonderful thing was I was three months pregnant with her [ Cora, daughter] when he passed away; truly a gift from God. I was thirty- nine years old, I mean an old mama. Oh, how wonderful. That’s great. The other thing I wanted to ask you about was when you first went to the test site, that time you’re describing, what was that like? Did you all go out there and protest, or what was that like, that first time you went? Did you lead people in? Virginia Sanchez: It was amazing. As we drove in, there was highway patrol, police, security, lined up. We went in the Mercury gate; they were lined up the way down with their vehicles. Jerry Millett was taken aside. He met with, probably, the Nye County sheriff. He was told that the rumors were people had knives hidden in their ankles or in their boots, that they had cayenne pepper ready to spray at the police. They were told that it was the Indians. Well, I mean of course it wasn’t true. We didn’t even know we were going to lead the group on the test site. Jerry wanted to go alone so we stayed up late that night trying to figure out who was going. Carrie Dann’s sister had told her, Do not get arrested. The final word was, We’re all going together. We had no clue exactly what was going to happen except what the American Peace Test group had told us, and we put our faith in just staying together. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 8 As we walked down towards the cattle guard, the entrance right there at Mercury, police were lined up two and three. They were standing with their arms behind their back looking very official at us as we walked down the road. There might’ve been about eight of us total. Martin Sheen and some Catholic priests were there with us. But Jerry as chief was the first to cross the line. He told them that this is Western Shoshone land based on the Treaty [ of Ruby Valley] of 1863; that we had the right to walk across our land and that we opposed nuclear testing. They immediately arrested him, took him and pulled him across and we all went across with him. They loaded us into some buses and took us to Beatty and we stayed there until they released us. Were you scared? That’s sort of a leading question. What was it like? Virginia Sanchez: I think it was frustrating. A little bit frightening at first. But I think it was more infuriating because of the reaction of the police officers. I think they thought it was a joke. They thought it was a joke? Virginia Sanchez: And being accused of carrying knives and pepper spray, it was all hype. But I think the fear subsided as soon as they had the plastic cuffs on; many of us were able to slip them off and we all were together. I think it was most frightening for Jerry; he was the spokesperson, he had to lead it. [ 00: 20: 00] He had to go first. Virginia Sanchez: Right. And his experience, for some reason— and I don’t know this for a fact— I think it brought back visions of Vietnam. He was in Vietnam and it was really frightening to him. He was more worried about the rest of us and really did want to go in alone, but we weren’t going to let him do that. Must’ve been a sense of responsibility or something that you’d have to have, because you don’t know what’s going to happen when you’ve got armed people against you. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 9 Virginia Sanchez: Oh, and we were far outnumbered. What year was this, again? This was ninety— no, eighty, sorry, eighty—? Virginia Sanchez: Nineteen eight- five perhaps; I’d have to go back and look. I need to check on the date, but was early on. We’ve been talking to people down in Las Vegas, some of the protest community among the Catholic Franciscan protesters; I think that began again in the early eighties was when they first started going out there. I think there were protests much, much earlier at the test site. Virginia Sanchez: Back in the late seventies, yes. I guess that’s right; it was the late seventies that it all began. So, those are my two questions. Help me understand a little about what I’ve been reading about, sort of from your perspectives. You’ve been going out— my understanding of what I’ve been reading is that you’ve been really dedicating yourselves to a blend of a scientific world view understanding of what those effects might be. But trying to understand what it’s really been like for the communities since atomic testing, the way people live their lives and the things they remember, in order to get some sense of what the dose calculation might be for Western Shoshone and was it Southern Paiute people, is that right? Virginia Sanchez: Yes. So that involves actually going out and talking to people, I imagine. Tell me a little bit about what that’s like. Patricia George: She did it the first time, so she can tell you her story and then I’ll tell you mine. OK, you can do the first set. I’m trying to keep track of time. We’re going to get you in one more time, Patricia. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 10 Virginia Sanchez: The community research, I think, is a key part of understanding what the DOE studies meant. Diane Quigley, and bringing in the environmental scientists from Clark University, was one piece. But because we lived through it, what was important was to hear from our own people; what their experience was, what was going on, what they remembered. So we began by interviewing and asking about their lifestyle. We had a set of questions and we just sat down with people, targeting the elders because they would have some of the best memories; they lived through it. Because Duckwater is my home community and I knew it the best, I began doing the initial interviews there. Incredible stories. In the valley, there’s a mountain range that runs east to west, probably one of the only ones in Nevada. Individuals would talk about seeing the clouds. This one fellow talked about how he and his brother and father were down on the south side of the reservation and they saw what looked like dust clouds, like a storm was blowing in. They were putting up hay. The father told him, Stay here, finish up, you two. I’m going to go up north and finish up some other work. This fellow said that the cloud rolled in; there was no sound, there was no wind. It just went over them and they finished up their work. He said shortly after that, both of them became violently ill: vomiting and chills. Was brought into Ely, checked by the doctor, and they were told that they had pneumonia. But he said he wasn’t susceptible to colds after that. [ 00: 25: 00] I interviewed an elderly woman who has passed on here in Ely. Her husband worked on the railroad early in the fifties. She talked about how he worked out when some of the fallout went over and didn’t have a shirt on. He had a huge sore after working out all day on his back that never went away. He died and she believes that it had to do with the fallout. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 11 Out in Duckwater, a woman in her late nineties, the oldest woman in the community, remembers the clouds going over and the next day going out and looking in the garden and the leaves of the plants were wilted. But the beans were good, the vegetables were good and they ate them. Another woman remembers her family getting up to watch the tests. They had a radio and they would listen for the tests and go out early in the morning. They could see the orange glow above those southern mountains. They’d wait and they could feel the tremors eventually through the ground. Some of the folks remember the dosimeters at the Duckwater School; they never quite knew exactly what they were for. One person told me that her father remembers big patches of dead trees. They’d also see dead animals, like deer. I’m trying to think of some of the others. It’s been a while. Well, while you’re thinking, when you’re talking to people, is there any sense that there’s any clue about why these things are happening? Is it being connected to the—? Virginia Sanchez: This woman’s father did say it had to do with the testing, there was no question. Some of the women from Moapa, the older women, they’d jump in their cars and drive to watch the beautiful mushroom clouds. And as we did our modules, they began to learn about the test site and understand the radionuclides and the pathways and how they affected humans as well as the environment. We had a woman cry because she was taking Iodine 131 because she had thyroid problems and little did she know that her daughter, who was pregnant, was in the room with her and that the rays would affect her children; they all had thyroid problems. You know, the realization was hard, and sometimes the individual wanted to blame themselves for not knowing. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 12 Tell me more about that. That’s really something that I wouldn’t expect, that you should somehow have known. Virginia Sanchez: And maybe it’s more of the maternal, the mother should be protecting the child, but this one particular woman, she somehow felt that she was to blame. We spent some time with her and talked and said of course she couldn’t know. And it’s probably a mix of emotions. I mean anger with the United States government, the Atomic Energy Commission [ AEC]. And the more you learned, they knew what was going on. There was no doubt. We were in the sacrifice zone. My brother, who is four years older than me, grew up in Duckwater with my grandmother, and he remembers— he was young, he wasn’t quite a teenager yet— being at the big warm spring. There’s a huge geothermal warm spring in Duckwater and people would go there to bathe. He and two cousins were up there and he remembers the fallout. He didn’t know what it was. He said, All of a sudden, there was this stuff falling out of the sky. We ran home and asked what it was, and my grandmother didn’t know. So they went back outside. Duckwater didn’t get electricity and running water and new houses until the seventies. People lived in their homes primarily to sleep and all the activity went on [ 00: 30: 00] outside; hauling water, hunting, fishing, and gathering went on all the time. So their lifestyle was all outside. I mean the people lived off the land. It wasn’t until the seventies with the electricity, running water, and better housing that people spent more time inside. So there wasn’t even warning about going inside or any of these kinds of things that you sometimes hear happened in Utah? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 13 Virginia Sanchez: There was a particular family that had a radio, but it wasn’t a community warning. Patricia George: It just depended on who had access to the media. Some had the newspapers, some had the radio, but it was limited. Virginia Sanchez: But the majority didn’t. Patricia George: I had the privilege of interviewing four communities in Northern Nevada. The stories weren’t quite as amazing as the ones down south— Ely, Duckwater, Yomba Shoshone tribe, Timbisha, Moapa, the Southern Paiute area, and Southern Utah. A lot of them went out; it was entertainment and an activity to go watch the clouds. Some sat on old boxcars on the railroads to watch. Families went to the mountains, to the mountaintop and had a picnic and watched those clouds. Virginia Sanchez: And it was portrayed as “ atoms for peace;” I mean, what mixed messages. Yes, what were the messages that—? Virginia Sanchez: That it was good for the country. And how it was internalized by the communities, I’m not quite sure; we didn’t get to that level of questioning. “ Atoms for peace” or defense of the country in the Cold War, those kinds of things? Virginia Sanchez: Yes. So before you have to go, Patricia, tell me a little bit more about when you first went out and what that was like. Patricia George: I think the overall experience was just learning about the lifestyle and what my people had to go through; the way they lived, how they lived, the food, the environment, and learning about all the impacts. Knowing now what had happened to them and having to see them suffer and lose a lot of families, and the children who have to suffer with the health issues now. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 14 You’ve said a couple of things that I think are important. Am I correct in understanding that one of the things that happened when you would go out is that you’d be getting stories about the lifeways in that era which were different from your own? Is that true? Patricia George: Yes. Just as Virginia has said, the majority of the families, especially down south, were outside 95 percent of the time. The only time they would probably be inside more is during the winter. But you know, they ate what was there; the wildlife, gathering of pine nuts and berries, and all of it. And even with the dairy farms or the orchards, people would share those foods. Oh, right. So even if your own place might not have necessarily been in an area that had fallout, then you might share that food? Patricia George: Yes. Because I think it’s true a lot of times when— the traditional look at fallout has to do with things hitting you, except in the case of dairy cows, than ingesting things, which [ 00: 35: 00] is what I’m understanding from what I’m reading and what you’re saying. Those pathways have not been adequately understood. Patricia George: The families, like from Moapa Reservation, if they weren’t fortunate enough to have their own milk or their own milk cow, somebody else would have it and they would share that with them. So I mean the exposure was just all around. Right, and then all the interconnections between people. There was something else I wanted to ask you about what you said. I’m understanding that the scientists then that are working with you are trying to track that, but people are reporting increases in deaths and illnesses in their families. That’s significant, is that right? UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 15 Patricia George: Yes. Back then, when they began their story, they would remember their neighbors or somebody in their family who was ill and they would describe the illness and it was cancerous, but they didn’t know that. So they would describe what we now know would be symptoms of cancer. Patricia George: Yes. Was it hard to do that work? Patricia George: It was, because you have to hear their pain, the sufferings they had to go through. And if they don’t understand and you have more of an understanding, it’s hard. Then when you interview the person and they’re suffering with health effects and then they’re no longer here and you see their family. It’s a whole community healing, from the time it started to now. “ A community healing”? Tell me more about what you mean. What do you mean by that? Patricia George: Just the overt pain and suffering that they had to go through and trying to educate them and hoping to heal together. That’s really interesting, what you’re saying. Because I think a natural human reaction to just reading some of the things in here and what you’re saying is how much suffering occurred. And what I seem to hear you saying is that even though you can’t necessarily cure those illnesses, the talking about it, the understanding of it, is part of some kind of healing process, is that right? Patricia George: Yes. And where are things now for you? Like you have this big meeting today. You’re continuing to— you meet and you—— you have to inform me about how this all works because I really don’t know. UNLV Nevada Test Site Oral History Project 16 Patricia George: We’re putting the information together and we’re wrapping up our grants and hoping to look at more funding. But a lot of that has kind of been put to the side so we can work on other organizational matters. Oh, really? OK. Patricia George: Yes. So it’s been a while, we’ve stepped out of that a little bit, but there’s always the reflection time. So when you think about it, is there something that you’ve gotten that makes you change in yourself about how you would do things in the future. I mean I’m thinking about what’s happening now in the state with Yucca Mountain and those kinds of things. Patricia George: There is a lot of concern because you want your people to know. That’s what we’re trying to do. Letting them know what happened, educating them, and hoping to prepare them for anything that might repeat itself. And hoping that you’ve helped. I think that’s really profound, what you’ve just said, because the notion that this thing [ 00: 40: 00] happened and you didn’t know what it was is really something. I think that’s one of the main issues of the test site, of course, is that it was so secret that a lot of people didn’t know what it was. Have you had an interaction with the DOE type people that did these kinds of studies? Are you showing them these results, or is there any sort of thing happening there as far as them understanding that maybe the way they put together an understanding of effects might not be complete? Virginia Sanchez: Yes. Bruce Church met with us, and Hazel O’Leary had a woman that worked with her; I cannot remember her name. Do you remember the me