Transcript of interview with Jacob Snow by Stefani Evans and Claytee White, August 29, 2016

i AN INTERVIEW WITH JACOB SNOW An Oral History Conducted by Stefani Evans and Claytee D. White The Building Las Vegas Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ©The Building Las Vegas Oral History Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2016 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Editor: Stefani Evans Transcribers: Kristin Hicks, Frances Smith Interviewers: Stefani Evans and Claytee D. White Project Manager: Stefani Evans iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of the UNLV University Libraries. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank the university for the support given that allowed an idea and the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Building Las Vegas Oral History Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University Nevada, Las Vegas iv PREFACE Bob [Broadbent] said to me, "If you're going to be able to get things done, you've got to be able to work with everybody, and you've got to be able to bury the hatchet and build bridges. . . . if you burn those bridges, you're never going to amount to anything." And I thought, man, that's a life lesson. In recalling his career in the public sector, Boulder City native Jacob Snow credits fellow Nevadans Robert Broadbent and Bruce Woodbury as two mentors who helped shape his world view. After attending Boulder City schools and serving a religious mission in Hong Kong, earning his Bachelor's and Master's degrees at Brigham Young University, and working as community development planner for the City of Provo, Utah, 1987–1989, Snow has lived and worked in Clark County. Snow's degrees in geography and urban planning and his experience in transportation directly benefited Clark County residents from 1989 through 2015; we continue to derive indirect advantage of his knowledge through his current consulting business. In this interview, he speaks to the ways infrastructure accommodated Southern Nevada's growth. He discusses McCarran's Terminal Three, the Las Vegas Monorail, UNLV's football stadium, the Bruce Woodbury Beltway, and the Fremont Street Experience. He explains the ethos of v McCarran Airport; why the Monorail will likely never go to McCarran Airport; how Clark County financed the CC-2015 Bruce Woodbury Beltway, and why we see the concept of "complete streets" applied more in the City of Las Vegas and the City of Henderson than in Clark County. Snow discusses his work under Clark County director of aviation Broadbent as assistant director of aviation for planning at McCarran International Airport; his career as general manager of the Regional Transportation Commission, where he worked with Clark County Commissioner Bruce Woodbury, and his three years as city manager for the City of Henderson. In speaking of all three roles, Snow draws upon his knowledge of transportation as it grew and was shaped by his previous positions. And in all three roles, Snow exemplifies the lesson Broadbent impressed upon him early in his airport career: "[Y]ou've got to be able to bury the hatchet and build bridges." vi TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Jacob Snow August 29, 2016 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Stefani Evans and Claytee D. White Preface………………………………………………………………………………..…………..iv Childhood in Boulder City; Brigham Young University Bachelor's degree in geography, Master's degree in urban planning; 1987–1989 community development planner for the City of Provo, Utah; Bob Broadbent as mentor; 1989–1999 hired by Broadbent at McCarran International Airport, leaving as assistant director of aviation for planning throughout Clark County. Ethos of airport in 1990s: the airport should not impede growth or the resort economy; analysis: every new hotel room equaled an additional 321 people who would use the airport; D Gates, Terminal Three, Ivanpah International Airport, and keeping up with growth; McCarran International Airport, UNLV, Tom Selleck's driving range, and slot revenue; Broadbent, Bruce Woodbury, Las Vegas Monorail, and Regional Transportation Commission general manager 1999–2012……….………..………. 1–17 Las Vegas Monorail, Curtis Myles III, and McCarran Airport; airports and political and corporate forces against mass transit; RTC and Clark County; Bruce Woodbury and Dario Herrera; RTC jurisdiction and the City of Las Vegas and "complete streets"; Fremont Street Experience as public space privately managed; 2012–2015 city manager for City of Henderson; 2009 economic crash, Southern Nevada cities, and budget shortfalls; 2015 retirement and consulting with Jay Barrett; Maryland Parkway and light rail; Chris Giunchigliani, Debra March, and Lawrence Weekly as local statesmen………………………………………………………….……………………17–39 vii 1 Good morning. This the August 29th, 2016, and we're in the office of Jacob Snow. This is Stefani Evans and Claytee White. Mr. Snow, would you please pronounce and spell your first and last names, please? My name is Jacob Snow; that's J-A-C-O-B, S-N-O-W. Thank you. Why don't we begin by you telling us about your early life, where you were born; tell us about your parents and your siblings and your childhood. I'm a native Nevadan. I was born in Boulder City, Nevada, at the old hospital up on the hill in Boulder City, which is now long since closed and torn down. It was a Catholic nunnery for a while and then it just fell into disrepair. It's being redeveloped now, I understand. I'm not exactly sure what as. But I am the youngest of five children. My parents moved to Southern Nevada in the mid-1950s. My dad was a chemical engineer at Titanium Metals Incorporated in Henderson. My parents, when they came to Nevada, drove from Utah, where they had lived. Both my parents graduated from Brigham Young University. So they drove through Utah down to Southern Utah. They both were from St. George. They came through Las Vegas and up through Henderson. Back then Henderson was not the prosperous, green, fairly nice, upscale community that it is today. It was a dump. They had very few paved roads. There were just some Townsite homes. It was dirty, dusty, hot, and not very pleasant. They had the industrial plants there, so it was rather polluted from an air-quality standpoint. My mother turned to my father and she said, "We're not living here." They drove up the hill to Boulder City, and that's where they made their residence and that's where all of us were raised, all of us went to high school. All of us went to elementary school, junior high, and high school there. 2 Is your family still there? My mother is still there. My father passed away fifteen years ago. All of my siblings are gone except for me. I live in Henderson still, but I don't live in Boulder City. Your siblings are scattered around? They are. I have one older brother who passed away in an automobile accident about fifteen years ago. I have a brother that's a federal judge, federal district court judge in Phoenix, and a sister that's a lawyer in Washington, D.C., and a brother who lives in Washington, D.C. as well. He's just retiring from the federal government, Public Affairs. Wow. So where did you go to college, then, and what was your major? That's a good question. There wasn't really much choice. I went to Brigham Young University, like my parents, and their parents went there as well. All of my siblings went there before me. So it wasn't really much of a choice. I could have gone to UNLV, I suppose. Back then it was frowned upon. It wasn't as good a school as it is now. CLAYTEE: Tumbleweed Tech. Yes, yes. My daughter works for UNLV now. She is an admissions counselor. She's even noticed the improvements since she was growing up here, growing up in Henderson. I think she sees the value of UNLV significantly now that she never could see before. I think if I would have gone there, I think I probably would have come to the same conclusion. But it was kind of a foregone conclusion that [BYU] was where I was going to go. It was very inexpensive for me to go there, as it is for those who can get accepted today. It's a very inexpensive school. I was there, got a bachelor's degree in geography and a master's degree in urban planning. After my freshman year I left BYU and went on a two-year mission for the Church of 3 Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints in Hong Kong. There I learned how to speak Cantonese and how to cook a little Chinese food and had a great experience, a very eye-opening experience for this white kid from suburban Southern Nevada. It was a great experience. Sure. Can you still speak Cantonese? I can. And you can still cook Chinese food? I can. Neither one very well, but I still can. I get that chance to practice occasionally. So with your background in geography an urban planning, how did you come to—what was your first job out of college, then? My first job out of college was as a community development planner for the city of Provo. And how long did you do that? What were some of your duties there? I worked there for about a year and a half. I was primarily support for a task force that was under way to deal with student housing at BYU and the parking challenges associated with a fairly high-end single family residential neighborhood close to the university that was kind of being overrun by developers—not developers, but I guess you would call them existing homeowners who were taking portions of their property and converting them into student apartments, and that didn't go over well with some of the folks in the neighborhood. And so there needed to be some standards developed from a regulations standpoint and from a planning standpoint. That's what I worked on for the first year and a half. I got employment down here in Southern Nevada shortly thereafter at McCarran International Airport as part of the Clark County Department of Aviation. The reason for that is because my family was very close to the Jacob N. Broadbent family of Southern Nevada. Bob Broadbent was the first mayor of Boulder City, a pharmacist from Ely, built a pharmacy in 4 Boulder City. They had no hospital in Boulder City back then, so he led the effort from the private sector to get that on, then became the first mayor, and then he ran for county commission in Southern Nevada. He was a county commissioner, I think, for four terms. He ran for lieutenant governor during one of the cycles that he did not need to run for re-election; he ran against Harry Reid and lost. Growing up after that we didn't have good feelings for Harry Reid after that for quite some time until I came to work for Bob at the airport. He knew that I had a degree in planning and he knew that the airport needed a lot of expansion, and so he agreed to hire me and came to Southern Nevada. Then I saw how Bob worked so closely and so well with Harry Reid. I said, "Come on, what's going on here, because you ran against him, bitter political enemy. I remember the campaign." It was very...Nasty things were said on both sides. Bob's wife, Sue, I think to this day doesn't have a good feeling for Harry Reid. But Bob said to me, "If you're going to be able to get things done, you've got to be able to work with everybody, and you've got to be able to bury the hatchet and build bridges. You can't burn them, because if you burn those bridges, you're never going to amount to anything." And I thought, man, that's a life lesson. And so one of the many things that Bob passed on that I thought were real gems because they had a great relationship. All sorts of federal money flowed into the airport because of that relationship. I also learned to develop a very healthy respect and admiration for Harry Reid and that has helped me in my subsequent career to do things later on from that standpoint. So it was Bob Broadbent that hired me and I worked at the airport for ten years in various capacities. Started off as a government affairs specialist. But then right after, the legislature was out into planning for the airport, physical facilities planning and development. What years are we talking about? 5 I came to work for Clark County Department of Aviation in July of 1989. I left ten years later in July of 1999. When I left I was an assistant director of aviation with responsibility for planning for the airport and for all of the general aviation airports in the Clark County airport system, which was the North Las Vegas Airport; Henderson Executive Airport—both of which we had acquired and redeveloped significantly in that ten years—Jean Sport Aviation facility, the Jean Airport that's down there—it's where all the gliders go to and stunt planes and that type of thing—Searchlight Airport and Overton Airport. I didn't even know there was one in Searchlight, but Harry Reid is from there. He is. There's not much of an airport in Searchlight, but it is paved and that's about it. Paved is good. Yes. So tell us about McCarran and how it expanded during those ten years. Well, one of the things that I did when I was at the airport was—I had just come out from a master's degree in urban planning—I did a lot of what was called linear regression as part of my thesis, just finding relationships between certain things, statistical relationships, and measuring them. And so I came to Las Vegas and there was all this growth at the time; the 1990s were just...the Clinton years and the economy was good. Parry Thomas, who just died recently, was getting loans for Steve Wynn and all these other places. The town was just exploding. Now, we had seen that here for decades, since the 1950s. I mean, the population doubled practically every decade. But [in the 1990s the growth] was bigger than it had ever been. The ethos of the airport at the time was that we wanted to make sure that the airport was never an impediment to the growth, especially to the resort economy; that was the motto then. So we were doing everything. We were building new parking garages, new terminals, new runways 6 just trying to keep up. I said, "I wonder what the relationship is between the growth in passengers using the airport and the growth in hotel rooms?" So I started to do a historical analysis. I did this linear regression equation. And we determined that for every hotel room there would be like an additional three hundred and twenty-one people who would use the airport. That's a model that the airport still uses today for planning for their facilities. And it turned out to be statistically valid. So we used that and that's kind of the model that we use for growth and development. We built the D gates, which is there now. Did the planning for terminal three, which is now built. We built the longest civilian runway in use in the world and that's runway seven-left-two-five-right. It's fourteen thousand five hundred or so feet. We built another runway on the—there's two east-west runways, the seven-left-two-five-right pair and the one-one-nine pair. So we had a total of four. During that time we had to rehab a couple of them and redo all the pavement on the ramp and the apron around the whole development. Built a new air traffic control tower. We've rehabbed terminal one significantly and expanded gates in the C gate complex. Built a new jet fuel line. Back then it was called the Charter International Terminal that became terminal two. That now is no longer in use. That terminal two was the FIS facility, which is Federal Inspection Services, for customs, immigration, naturalization for all the international flights, and that's where all the international flights would come and clear customs and immigration there. Terminal two had eight gates; four of them were capable of being used for international flights. We just did what we could to just keep pace, keep up. We knew that the capacity of the airport was eventually going to be exceeded, and it really has been now in terms of its ability to accommodate. It really can't do a lot to accommodate a big chunk of additional flights. If they're 7 going to grow again, which they may very well do, they're going to need to get a new airport. So we did the initial planning for the Ivanpah International Airport down by Jean. Went through the environmental impact statement for all that and then I left. So there's a lot of activity going on. Bob was there. He's one of these kinds of "slap you on the back," aw shucks kinds of guys, very avuncular. Everybody loved him. Everybody loved him—even the people that he had to fire, I think they all loved him, too, and there weren't many. It was just a really—of all the places I have worked that was the place where everybody [got along well]. We had money. We instituted a passenger facility charge. We were the first airport in the country to do so after those rules were authorized at the federal level. The airport is not supported by taxes; it's all user-fee based. So we had money. Slot-machine revenue was huge at the airport, so we were able to build a lot of really neat stuff. And it was really gratifying to do plans, and actually see them be implemented, and build them and pretty much in grand fashion, I would say. Oh, yes, the D gates are amazing. Yes. We really have quite a facility. Yes, beautiful. Now, when people come in they're impressed. That's what we wanted to do. You can't just have a ho-hum airport if you're going to be a fabulous destination like Las Vegas. Sadly, parts of the airport, the older parts, the A and B gates and even the C gates now are looking dark and dingy. But the D gates [are good] and Terminal Three is a very first-class-type complex. We also built all the air cargo facilities at the airport. Those were really unheard of when I got there. There's really not a whole lot left to do. There's no room for much anything else, I guess. 8 But Terminal Three is almost empty. So we still have a lot of growth that we can do. There is room in Terminal Three to add facilities; that is true. There really isn't a whole lot of room on the air side, because the three [sides] have to be in balance. You've got the land side, which is your parking garages and your on-airport roadways, and they're fine there with Terminal Three. There's the terminal portion where you put the planes. But [there's also] the airfield. Any one of the three can be a constraint to the other two, and they all have to be in balance, like a three-legged stool. The airfield with just four runways that both intersect, that creates a problem, especially if the runways intersect. Now, if they were all parallel and didn't intersect, you'd get a lot more capacity. But we've also got Nellis Air Force Base. Once you get north of Charleston Avenue, we really can't use that airspace. So the mountains out here to the West, Nellis to the North creates some real problems. So there are some significant airfield restrictions at McCarran. We thought about building another runway south of Sunset Road, but there's no way we could do that. I remember there were some noise abatement complaints, at least where I live, that the planes were taking off towards the West and then they had to circle back, but they were turning too soon. Where do you live? I live at Tropicana [Avenue] and Durango [Drive]. And I never really heard it myself. It was a problem. It was a problem. I was noise abatement officer for two or three years. So I spoke to all those people. Oh, so you heard all those complaints. And I think that some of them... Different people have different reactions to different types of noise. During that time we were in the process of phasing out all of the older, noisier aircraft that 9 we called stage-two aircraft. Some of them are really, really noisy, the [Boeing] 727s in particular. The Boeing 727 was very, very noisy and didn't perform very well, so it wouldn't get attitude as quickly. It didn't have high-bypass, triple-fan engines, which tend to attenuate the noise. They're just noisy as all get out. Once those older, noisier aircraft got out of the fleet that solved a lot of problems for us from the noise standpoint. But we had to buy a bunch of property when the airport was expanding just for noise reasons. In fact, the Boyd Law School, where that's located at UNLV, that used to be an elementary school years and years ago. Before it was the library? Yes. Well, where is the Boyd—because the Boyd Law School was first put in on the other side. Oh, you're talking about that little school. Paradise Elementary. Yes. We bought that and gave it to the university for their use. Oh, because it is right in the [flight path]? It was a noise-impacted school. So we would have had to go in and rehab the whole thing and soundproof it; we didn't want to do that. So we just bought the property and turned it over to UNLV, who went in and made some improvements to it. We relocated and built Paradise Elementary on the UNLV campus and it became a kind of a laboratory school for...? Yes, it is. The Education Department. Mr. Broadbent was unique. He didn't just have blinders on for the airport and the airlines and left the rest of the community out. Having been a politician before, a successful and a shrewd politician and really, really good at cutting red tape, he had the vision for how the airport could help not just the resort community but everybody. So he was really close with Kenny Guinn—10 Kenny Guinn at one time was an interim president of UNLV—really close to Carol Harter, and he was able to make the connections to do a lot of things for the university. Ironically enough, UNLV wants to build this stadium on their property, and most of that property around the Thomas and Mack Center that's closer to the airport, the airport bought and entered into cooperative agreements with UNLV so they could use it for parking, and they still do to this day. That's the land where, I think, Don Snyder and others thought, well, there's a real opportunity here. And he's right, but the reason the airport was able to buy it and give it to the university was because they didn't want the university to do anything that would cause a problem from a height hazard standpoint or a noise compatibility problem. So we signed this inter-local agreement and then here comes the university trying to do something that wasn't their land in the first place and they did sign an agreement not to do it. I remember those days. We were trying to do everything we could to help the university. We bought some other residential land use on Harmon, bought some apartments, tore those down, turned them over to the university. So he really wanted to help wherever he could. So do you have any property around there that could accommodate a stadium? No, none of that can. It really, really can't. Because we're just so close [to the airport]? And now even the federal safety standards have become more stringent than when I was there. So it's even harder to do it now than it was back then. We bought the old Ralph's Market at the corner of Tropicana and Paradise [Road] there. There used to be an old shopping center in there. We bought that whole market and tore it down and we were able to put a golf driving range in. I remember Tom Selleck and his father came to the airport one day because they wanted build it. They came just out of the blue. Some people 11 came back and they said, "Hey, Tom Selleck is out there and wants to come talk to you about what he can do with airport land." I said, "Who?" And all these women all the sudden just showed up around my office saying, "Do you know who's out there to see you?" And I said, "Okay, it must be that Tom Selleck." And so we went out and met with him and his father, these tall, handsome gentlemen. All these women from the Department of Aviation kept walking by the outside of the door and looking in. They built the golf driving range there. I don't think it ever did very well. It wasn't a good financial investment for them. But they could at least do something like that that was nice and flat. But that was about it. Now you can't even do that anymore. Oh, really? Yes. They don't even allow parked cars anymore in the runway protection zones. Is it because of potential injury? That's exactly it. Planes sometimes land short of the runway, and there's this trapezoidal area off the end of the runway that you have to protect for. So all the slot revenue belongs to McCarran? We had a slot concession, and the whole time that I was there the slot concession was held by Michael Gaughan. There were other people before that, but Michael had it and he's had it for a long, long time. I don't know who has it today, but I suspect it's likely him. We had a participatory agreement. We would put it out for proposals every four or five years, and then proponents would say, "We will give you a certain percentage of the take." I think that we got like 90 percent of the take and then Michael would keep 10 percent or so for his administration and profit. It was a good arrangement for both parties. It was like...I can't remember how much, but it was something like $30 million a year to the airport at that time, which you could bond. 12 We use that to bond a lot of sources. It's grown significantly. I don't know how much it is now. I do know that when we went to an airport in, I think, it was Colorado, our girls were young. We were on a layover. And they came out of the airplane and they looked around the airport stunned. The older one said, "I thought we were in an airport." And I said, "We are." She said, "Where are the slot machines?" Where is the ringing, ringing, dinging, dinging, the lights? Yes. So after you left the airport, then you went to the [Regional] Transportation [Commission]? Yes. I wouldn't have had my job without Bob Broadbent at the airport, and he left a couple of years before I did to develop the Las Vegas Monorail. Oh, I'd forgotten he had developed that. He did. He did. It was originally put in place by MGM and Bally's. They went and bought old Monorails from Disneyland and built the system. It was a rudimentary system. I'm trying to remember the name of the gentleman who was the chief executive at MGM at the time and his name is escaping me. Terry Lanni? No, it was before Terry. It was Bob Maxey. You can add it when we send the draft to you. Okay. Bob Broadbent started to go talk to those guys. Things were changing politically on the county commission and I think Bob saw that and he also saw this Monorail opportunity. And so he left the Department of Aviation and formed his own company to help the resorts build this Monorail and upgrade it because the old Disneyland trains really weren't...They cost a lot to maintain and they really didn't operate very well and the ride wasn't very good. 13 They went out and found this...The original manufacturer of the trains was Bombardier out of Canada and they wanted to build a new Monorail, and so that's what Bob did was got together. And it wasn't just connecting Bally's to MGM. For those two hotels, if they could get a direct transit connection to the convention center that would help their midweek business. Back then the town was a weekend heavy town and you had to depend on conventions to kind of fill up the rooms in the weekdays. Having a smooth, seamless, easy way to get to and from the convention authority would give those hotels and advantage over the other hotels, and that was the idea of getting the Monorail to the convention center. Those hotels built it on the back end of the Strip because the other hotels didn't want it down the Strip because it was going to block the view of their marquee, block the view of the exploding volcano at the Mirage. Steve Wynn had other plans that came to fruition, the Bellagio with the nice fountains. So they just didn't want it because the Monorail is an elevated system, and so it had to be put on the back end where the view wasn't very nice and that was really where the employees accessed; that's where the employee parking was. But that's what they had to settle for and so that's what they did. At one point in time they were going to be on the Strip once they got to the Desert Inn. Then the Desert Inn changed ownership. Sylvester Stallone and others came in, in a consortium to buy that and that didn't last very long. And they decided, no, we don't want the Monorail in front. And so they sent it down, the alignment where it is now, which it jogs on Spring Mountain over to Paradise and then down to the convention center. There was a big fight at the time between the Regional Transportation Commission—back then it was the Regional Transportation Commission of Clark County—and Bob. The RTC was led by a man by the name of Kurt Weinrich back then and he wanted to do light rail. He had 14 started the RTC in a process, a federal process to look at environmental... Under the national Environmental Protection Act, you have to go through an evaluation process. They had an EIS [Environmental Impact Statement] under way and were doing all these studies. And they wanted to build elevated light rail in the corridor and Bob wanted to build an elevated Monorail, and so the fight became rather bitter and political and nasty. And you had Bruce Woodbury, who was the chairman of the RTC at the time. He was also on the County Commission, good friend of Bob's. Kurt Weinrich said, "Well, we're going to build light rail and we're going to raise sales taxes to do it." He said that publicly. And then people on the Strip, who a lot of people didn't want the Monorail, like Steve Wynn and others, but they were fine if the resorts themselves wanted to do it on their own and not raise taxes and stay off the Strip. The RTC kind of wanted to do the former and Bob was willing to do the latter. And so when Kurt Weinrich talked about raising sales taxes that just was the end for him, because he didn't do it in consultation or approval with the RTC board, and so it was kind of the end for him. A number of people, I was told—I don't have any knowledge of this—a number of people went to Bruce Woodbury, and they said, "If you don't do something about Kurt Weinrich, then we're going to go to the legislature and we're going to emasculate the RTC, take it away from you, and we'll redo it and somebody else will get it." So Bruce decided he needed to do something to be more responsive to the business community, and so they decided to create what they called a general manager position. They recruited for that nationally. I was happy at the airport and I didn't want to leave. It was a great job. It was really a lot of fun. And it sounds creative and all of that. 15 It was. And you got to see your ideas happen. Yes. Now, I had helped Bob with the Monorail while I was at the airport. I went to meetings. The first time I met Terry Lanni was with Bob. Terry wasn't there very long. I'm trying to think of that guy's name that was there that actually built the first Monorail. I can't remember. Bob had dragged me around to all these meetings and we had talked about the importance of getting people to the airport to the resorts and back. MGM was going to be first on the alignment if we had an airport connection. They'd be the first resort from the airport. They would be, yes. So Terry Lanni at that time was very pro-Monorail and went to all these meetings. I thought that was it when Bob finally left. They had a recruitment for the general manager. It went on for quite a while. It was a nationwide recruitment. Bruce Woodbury went and approached a bunch of people to become the RTC general manager. He approached Jay Bingham, who was a county commissioner. Jay had left the county commission by that time and was doing very well as a developer. Jay was a smart man; he didn't want to touch that with a ten foot pole; that was a no-win job and he knew it. Who else had they approached? A ton of people. Terry Murphy. I don't know if you know Terry, but she was Director of Administrative Services for