[Transcript of interview with Joan and Leslie Dunn by Barbara Tabach, June 20, 2016 and May 30, 2017]. Dunn, Joan and Dunn, Leslie Interview, 2016 June 20, and 2017 May 30. OH-02717. [Transcript]. Oral History Research Center, Special Collections & Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.
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An Interview with Joan and Leslie Dunn An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ©Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV - University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers and Editors: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White 11 The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first- person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project. Cl ay tee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas m Preface Among the stories of those who came to Las Vegas in the 1960s to work at the Nevada Test Site is that of Leslie Dunn and his wife Joan. Leslie had been hired by the U.S. Public Health Service to monitor radiation from the explosions. He has tales flying into craters that make you wide-eyed. This assignment would last until his “retirement” in 1983 - one can’t really describe this couple as retired. During these early years, while Les pursued his scientist career, Joan’s chief focus was on raising their three children, Bruce Dunn, Loryn Dunn Arkow, and Sharon Dunn Levin. She also completed her education in accounting at University of Nevada, Las Vegas. She was involved with Equal Right Amendment efforts and League of Women Voters. The couple were only in their forties when Les left the PHS. As he looked forward to new opportunities, he felt compelled to pursue his longtime dream to become a builder, something he had dabbled at as a youngster with his father, Jack Dunn. Together, he and Joan embraced the dream. First, with a couple of home remodels; then starting a small concrete business and building a small apartment complex on Sunrise Mountain. Then in 1988 the stars aligned as Les seized the opportunity to acquire a 40 acre parcel of land, and then another 40 acres, and envisioned a retail mall for the growing hinterlands of Henderson, on the dusty road names Sunset. By 1995, a regional mall named Galleria at Sunset emerge on the wide-open desert near the newly construct 1-95. This would not be the Dunn’s last venture for their Dunrite Construction Company. The Dunns were both born and raised in the Jewish culture of New York City, the Bronx. They were teenagers when they met and fell in love. As with many Jews who relocated to the valley, the Jewish community offered friendships that have remained for decades. Joan recalls her mother-in- law Rose being a strong factor in observing Judaism as a young mother and proudly talks about her children and grandchildren becoming bar/bat mitzvahs. The couple is also proud of recognition by the Small Business Administration, Distinguished Service Award for the Nevada Health Care for their TLC Care Center, among other recognitions and positions in the greater Las Vegas community. IV Table of Contents Interview with Joan and Leslie Dunn June 20, 2016 and May 30, 2017 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Barbara Tabach Preface........................................................................................iv Leslie’s family roots discussed; grandparents who emigrated from Russia in early 1900s and settled in New York City; was raised in Bronx; attended City College, where he studies civil engineering. Joined U.S. Public Health Service and after a stint in New Orleans was assigned to Las Vegas and worked at the Nevada Test Site in the early 1960s, flying into detonated areas, being tested for radiation levels and his position on the after-effects of the testing.....1 - 8 Talk about Les’s Master’s thesis at Tulane in Sanitary Engineering; being assigned to Environmental Protection Agency as a commissioned officer in Public Health Services during President Nixon’s administration; frustrations.............................................9 - 13 Joan reflects on this period, her education and route to earning a Bachelor of Science in Biology; move to Las Vegas in 1964 and securing a position with UNLV (formerly Nevada Southern University.); starting a family; being a stay-at-home mother. Also active with League of Women Voters, Jean Ford, spoke at ERA hearings; first home near Koval and Harmon rented for $106/month, moved nearer Nellis Air Force Base; Temple Beth Sholom preschool; carpooling with Gov. Richard Bryan’s children; neighbor of Lonnie Hammergren; life style overview; public schools their children (Bruce, Loryn and Sharon) attended; small town feeling............13 - 22 Both talk about becoming the contractors for building their own home in Equestrian Estates at Pecos and Warm springs; how the area looked then. Passing of their son Bruce at age 27; how he announced he wanted to attend Hebrew school; Temple Beth Sholom was only synagogue in town but they wanted a more liberal temple. Became involved in the organization of Congregation Ner Tamid; attended meeting at Dr. Kirshbaum’s house; board member; Les’ mother Rose taught in the religious school there; Moe Dalitz and early fundraising.............................23 - 25 Joan reflects on her mother-in-law Rose as a role model; talks about her personal Jewish heritage and foundation; background of grandparents came in the later 1880s; she was an only child and raise in New York City, her grandmother being the one who made sure she had a Jewish education. Their daughters had bat mitzvahs at Ner Tamid; children attended Jewish camp in Prescott AZ; their grandchildren all became bar/t mitvahs. Talk about Building Committee for Ner Tamid in the 1980s....................................................................................26-28 v Talk about Les’ retirement from Public Health Service and transitioning to the construction business; built four-plexes in Henderson, PEPCON plant explosion of 1988; PEPCON as illegal. Also mention the musical talents of their children. Joan recalls her involvement with the Equal Rights Amendment hearings, to be ratified;....................................................29-33 Les summarizes the highlights of his life’s first forty-five years. More about Ner Tamid formation and Las Vegas history with mobsters such as Moe Dalitz, criminalization of alcohol. Englestad episode at Imperial Palace celebrating Hitler’s birthday, how heirs have done much for the community to more than make up for that. Humorous story about Richard and Carol Oshins who once bought their home........................................................................34 - 37 Thoughts about impact of Jewish community on Las Vegas growth in general; difficulty of attracting rabbis in earlier days; small affiliation rate. Remember dancing at the Desert Inn on weekends to live music; Garden Room and Sinatra; drummer Buddy Rich as a former neighbor; Spilotro children classmates of the child.....................................................37-40 Session 2 After retirement, Les recalls pursuing his dream to become a builder; he and Joan begin with a a couple jobs in home repairs and remodels; built apartments on Sunrise Mountain, and then start a small concrete business, Dunrite Construction. Built a small office park for small contractors in Henderson. Tells the story of purchasing a 40 acre parcel on a dirt road called Sunset in Henderson in 1985; how he invited investors to join his LLC and actually purchased 80 acres which became the site of Galleria Mall; included negotiations with Father Cavallo of St. Joseph’s Catholic Church; how they learned to build a regional mall and created a scholarship fund for St. Viator’s; interviewing architectural firms; steps taken to build malls in stages; by January 1986 all the pieces came together..............................................................................41-54 Steps to find anchor stores while the recession of the mid-1980s is raging; steps to design and construct the mall; construction commences in 1994. Buys property from City of Henderson which eventually was purchased by the Clark County School District for Green Valley High School; also donated a parcel of land there for the College of Southern Nevada, the Leslie and Joan Dunn Advanced Technology Center.................................................................54-60 Talks about buying another 80 acres parcel; learning and building during a recession. Discuss Joan’s role; being a married couple in partnership; building other shopping centers in Henderson, including Stephanie Power Center, Green Valley Station Shopping Center, and also some in development in California. Talk about time when there was an effort to stop devilment in Las Vegas by the Federal Government - protection of tortoise, water issues, 10-15 year cycles of overbuilding in the valley.................................................................61-66 vi Talk about being honored by Small Business Administration in 2004; building TLC Care Center, a rehabilitation facility in Henderson; dealing with government regulations; how TLC has become Les’s cause. The facility has short-term and long-term patients/residents...............66 - 69 Discuss their grandchildren; comparison to their growing up in Bronx. And the luxury home that the Dunns now live in in Anthem Country Club overlooking the city of Las Vegas - includes how they came to build this home over seven years. Raising their three children and where they are now. Being active in AIPAC, Jewish National Fund, Israel causes such as CUFI [Christians United for Israel], Talk about the BDS [Boycott Divestment Sanctions] movement to stop Israeli-made products from being sold. Their dedication and trips to Israel, importance of knowing history of the area................................................................................70-77 Mention long friendships. Les mentions encountering anti-Semitism at Test Site at first. Talks about his patriotism, belief in free speech, importance of learning American history; being able to own their home; growth in local population they have observed; professional sports coming to Las Vegas; changes in malls and retail shopping; changes in residential development as property prices increase; future expansion and water; local education and other topics of importance as we face the future. Talks more about being on building committee for Congregation Ner Tamid during its founding; Temple Shirat Sholom and Philip Goldstein.....................................78-88 Vll Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project UNLV University Libraries Use Agreement Name of Narrator: J oan -J) Name of Interviewer: ___________ We, the above named, give to the Oral History Research Center of UNLV, the recorded interview(s) initiated on P along with typed transcripts as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to the University of Nevada Las Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. I understand that my interview will be made available to researchers and may be quoted from, published, distributed, placed on the Internet or broadcast in any medium that the Oral History Research Center and UNLV Libraries deem appropriate including future forms of electronic and digital media. There will be no compensation for any interviews. Signature of Interviewer Date Oral History Research Center at UNLV Libraries 4505 S. Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, NV 89154-7010 702.895.2222 Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project UNLV University Libraries Use Agreement Name of Narrator: Name of Interviewer: l/FBACrt We, the above named, give to the Oral History Research Center of UNLV, the recorded interview(s) initiated on along with typed transcripts as an unrestricted gift, to be used for such scholarly and educational purposes as shall be determined, and transfer to the University of Nevada Las Vegas, legal title and all literary property rights including copyright. This gift does not preclude the right of the interviewer, as a representative of UNLV, to use the recordings and related materials for scholarly pursuits. I understand that my interview will be made available to researchers and may be quoted from, published, distributed, placed on the Internet or broadcast in any medium that the Oral History Research Center and UNLV Libraries deem appropriate including future forms of electronic and digital media. There will be no compensation for any interviews. Signature of Interviewer Date Oral History Research Center at UNLV Libraries 4505 S. Maryland Parkway, Box 457010, Las Vegas, NV 89154-7010 702.895.2222 Today is June 20th, 2016. This is Barbara Tabach working on the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage project and it's my pleasure to finally sit down with Leslie and Joan Dunn. I'll ask you first to spell your name for the book. L-E-S-L-I-E, D-U-N-N; Leslie Dunn. Great. Thank you. Joan, J-O-A-N; Dunn, D-U-N-N. For the Jewish project, it's always fun to hear about family roots. Where did your family ancestry begin? I'll start with you, Leslie. LESLIE: My grandfather was from western Russia. There were continuous pogroms in Russia against the Jews in the early 1900s. I guess, he saw the writing on the wall, and decided that he would leave Russia. He was twenty years old when he came to the United States. He arrived in 1903. He was introduced to my grandmother, who also came to the United States about the same time, cupid’s arrow struck and they were married. They set up housekeeping in a little apartment in lower Manhattan. They became part of the Jewish immigrants seeking a better, safer life in America. They had no money. They didn't speak English. They were in America and it was better than living in Southern Russia. My grandfather did odd jobs. He borrowed money from a cousin and bought a candy route of penny machines, in Manhattan and Brooklyn. He eventually got a job with the City of New York as railroad conductor on the subway system. I guess, he did that most of his life until he retired. He received a small pension when he retired. He always made a living, took care of his family and loved being an American citizen. He didn't stop working after he retired. He knew Manhattan and the Bronx and he worked for a dentist delivering teeth. I remember that, because he would have some of the 1 grandchildren help him on his deliveries. He would pay us a dollar or two a day to help him. It was really nice having some time alone with Grandpa. I came on the scene in 1940. The extended family lived in the same neighborhood in tiny apartments. We would get together on Friday nights grandma and the aunts made Shabbat dinner. There were always ten or twelve people—cousins, aunts, uncles. We all lived within a few blocks of each other in New York City. We all went to public schools. I went to PS 59, PS 118, and DeWitt Clinton High School. I was not a great student, but I was in Arista and I was in the top quarter of the class. I went to the City College of the City of New York. I joined the ROTC (Reserve Officer Training Corp) at school and graduated with a BS in Civil Engineering. I enlisted in the U.S. Public Health Service with the Naval Rank of Ensign. I met Joan, when she was sixteen and a senior in high school. I was nineteen years old and I knew she was the one and that we would build a great life together. We dated for three and a half years. She also went to City College. After I joined the U.S. Public Health Service, we were married. I was assigned to New Orleans. BARBARA: I want to hold up before we get you to New Orleans. Let’s go back to being raised in New York City. So you were right in Bronx, the whole family lived— LESLIE: In the Bronx. BARBARA: In the Bronx, okay. And your grandfather did this teeth delivery service. Your grandfather was the one doing that? Right. My mother was a school crossing guard and busy raising me and my brother. What did your father do? My father was a small contractor in New York City. I started working with him when I was twelve years old. My father would take me on jobs. We would do repairs. He taught me how to 2 use tools, how to build things and to be self-reliant. I would also make a little extra money. I was always an entrepreneurial kid. I would go with him when I was off from school or when he needed some help, someone to carry his tools, a helper in training. Was that customary in that era that kids would start working at that young age or did you do that just because you're adventurous. I worked to make money and learn skills. I washed floors for twenty-five cents in the other apartments in my building. I was kind of the bad boy of the block. An independent soul, my way or the highway. How is that? When I was fourteen, I bought our family’s first home with the money in my bank account that I had received and saved from my Bar Mitzvah. When I was sixteen, I bought a sailboat. I would race in regattas on Long Island Sound. I was also on my high school rifle team. My father taught me how to shoot when I was about ten or eleven—he took me to a shooting range in the Bronx, which happened to be where Hank Greenspun had hid the illegal guns that he had managed to obtain. Those guns were shipped to Israel during the 1948 war of Independence. I have continued my gun hobby throughout my life. I still enjoy it. It is important for me to know that I can protect my family. How did you decide to go to City College? It was what we could afford. We were a middle class or lower middle class family in terms of economics. City College was one of the best institutions in the country at that time. In order to get into the college you had to have a ninety average or above and you had to have high marks on the New York State Regents exams. It was a great academic institution. So you're at City College; you're a smart guy. What did you decide to study? 3 I chose civil engineering. The great works that advanced civilization: aqueducts, hydraulics and mechanics made farming possible, creating villages, towns and cities. I wanted to be part of the future, idealism of youth. I think I was looking forward in my junior and senior years to moving out West. The Big West where there were great opportunities, new projects, this was my future. I decided to join the U.S. Public Health Service. The USPHS was actively recruiting. How did that work? When I joined the service, I was assigned to New Orleans for my first two years in the Bureau of Air Pollution. Then I applied to the Bureau of Radiological Health and I was assigned to Nevada. The laboratory in Las Vegas was tasked with the health safety of the public related to nuclear weapon systems development at the Nevada Test Site. My career turned from air pollution and water pollution to nuclear environmental safety. We were the watchdogs for the radiological health of our country here at the Nevada Test Site. How did that work? How could you watch for that? I'm really fascinated by that whole era of development in the Las Vegas area. We were a group of engineers and scientists. We worked on the UNLV campus. In 1964, we had at that time on the university grounds, four research laboratories. UNLV had an additional four buildings on the campus. At night, I taught fluid mechanics in the Engineering Department at the University. When I arrived in Las Vegas, our laboratory was developing programs to monitor radiation. If any radioactivity was released from the Nevada Test Site, we tracked it and alerted people in the path of the radioactive cloud. They had just converted from above ground nuclear testing to underground testing. We had a fleet of aircraft that we flew out of McCarran Airport. I also flew out of Nellis as a commissioned officer on military aircraft over the Nevada Test Site. 4 We would fly over ground zero, minutes after the detonation to see if there was any venting. During my career, I flew about two hundred and fifty missions. Many missions involved tracking radioactive clouds, over the United States, to document radioactivity levels. So this was during the era when the tests were below ground. In 1962, in order to prevent radiation exposure to the general public, all testing was to be done underground. All of the detonations occurred anywhere from a thousand to several thousand feet below the ground. However, when an atomic device detonates it melts the surrounding rock. Depending on the size and the yield of the shot, a molten spherical cavity forms, approximately five to eight hundred feet in diameter. Several hours afterwards, the cavity would collapse forming a crater on the surface. Sometimes there would be venting into the atmosphere, carrying radioactivity downwind hundreds of miles. The Test Site was located approximately a hundred and twenty miles from Las Vegas. There still were many vents that occurred. So your typical day of work back then—you would have been how old? So you were just twenty-four. Twenty-four, yes. I was born in 1940. We had our own laboratories on the University campus and had aircraft at McCarran Airport. We would fly to the test site on the day of a test. We had our own aircraft, military aircraft and we would fly those planes up to the Test Site and then circle Yucca Flat or wherever the shots were scheduled, and then we would fly right over ground zero. There was one time we were flying over ground zero at about fifty feet and the detonation collapsed. The next thing we knew we were two hundred and fifty feet below ground in a crater. We kept flying and we were lucky enough to fly out—the crater was wide enough. Then we circled the collapsed crater and measured the radiation that was escaping. 5 Do you remember that moment, what you felt like when suddenly you were surrounded like that? We were flying at fifty feet above the ground and then we were two hundred and fifty feet below the surface—the whole column of air went down. So all I remember is—it happened instantaneously—is that we were below ground and the surface was two hundred fifty feet above us. So, Joan, did you know about this? Did he come home and share that experience with you? Of course, yes, yes. That would be frightening. We were warriors. It was fun. It was fun to be a warrior, okay. I mean this was national defense. We were developing the nuclear capabilities of our country. At that point in time, all of the tests would measure the yields and efficiency of our nuclear arsenal. And all the crew members were tested after the flights for their radioactivity levels and they were all radioactive, all the guys. We were hot; colloquialism for high levels of radioactive iodine. I was a scientific officer. Our lab developed computer algorithms to measure the radiation levels, measure the amount of radioactive isotopes that escaped from the ground and traveled with the cloud. We would track the cloud until the radioactive levels diminished to background. At our laboratory, we developed criteria for the biological critical receptor. These are the safe levels of environmental exposure, how much radiation an individual could be exposed to safely. Radiation levels decrease with time. The first day most of the short half-life isotopes decayed. These radioactive iodines decay, 6 fallout or they're rained out, they settle on farm pasture lands. The small farm pasturelands in Utah have family cows; the cow would graze on the pasture, about five acres per cow and concentrate the radioactive iodine. In most cases, radiation gets diluted because the milk from a lot of dairies are combined together diluting the radiation. However, a family cow, eats five acres of grass. All the radiation that fell out of the radioactive cloud at very low levels is now concentrated into two gallons of milk. The milk is then ingested by a child and all the radioactive iodine again gets concentrated. This time into a child’s thyroid, which is the size of a pea. The radioactive levels are 10,000 times higher in the child’s thyroid than the levels on the grass. There have been cases—the government denies it—but the levels of thyroid cancer in small towns around the Nevada Test Site in Utah were ten times higher than in communities that weren’t in the path of the radiation. So there is scientific research or controversy over that; there’s evidence that would substantiate that. There was controversy. It took years. The government didn't admit this scenario until the late nineties. Okay? That's just the beginning story. I read the book Area 51 and I’ve interviewed others. We did a small project for the wives of the scientists from the Test Site, some of whom you probably knew. Then I interviewed Dr. Leonard Kreisler for this project. I know Dr. Kreisler. His opinion—and he has to live with himself—was that no, it didn't affect the children. I and a lot of other professionals, looking post-period, recognized the patterns that there were and the high levels of the radiation. To dismiss it as, oh, well, thyroid cancer is a natural thing\ If the radiation levels are significantly higher and the cancer rates are ten times higher than the national average, in communities in the path of the radioactive cloud and we 7 have an exposure model that shows how radiation is concentrated throughout the environment: from the air, to the rain, to particles, to the grazing land, to the cows, to the milk, to the child, the critical receptor, there may be a significant correlation between the exposure and the higher cancer rates. They can hide their head in the sand and say whatever they want. Were you worried yourself during those— I was in my twenties. You're invincible at that age no matter what. Exactly. I was a little worried. I was concerned. Twenty-four years old. Your country is involved in the Cold War. You have a mission to do. You don't worry about those things. You do your job. When you're flying through the clouds, there was one cloud that was so radioactive that it pegged every instrument. We had a significant range of instruments onboard the aircraft to measure high levels of radiation from the cloud. It's a matter of not only the concentration, but the time that you're in the cloud. So when you would finish and you had any level of exposure, did they have a process for decontaminating you? Yes. It was a whole body counter and would measure the concentrations of radioisotopes that we had in our bodies. There were certain criteria; if you received certain exposures, then you had to restrict your exposure for a number of months or even a year before you could fly on missions again. Well, I can see we can probably do a whole long conversation on this alone. Right. It's a whole story here. 8 This is fascinating; this is just one part of your life. Right. JOAN: I want to point out that when we lived in New Orleans, while Les was working, he also received a Master's Degree in Sanitary Engineering from Tulane University. For his Master's thesis, he went to Colombia, South America and studied river pollution on the Rio Cauca. LES: When I did my research in Columbia, I worked at the University in Cali. We were looking for the point of contamination from human waste products. Cali was a city of six hundred thousand people. The main sewer plant dumped all the sewage into the Rio Cauca, which was a small river. Below the output of the sewage plant was the intake from the water plant. Although the water plant was fairly modem and had good facilities to clarify the water like we do in the United States, if the treatment plant would break down the sewage would go directly into the water plant serving six hundred thousand people, a very hazardous situation. My study involved measuring the amounts of fecal coli in the water. We did tests for different contaminants. I recommended that the intake for the water plant be relocated above the sewage plant so that if the sewage plant should have a malfunction, the city’s water supply could not be contaminated by human waste. I made those recommendations to their civil authorities in my Master's thesis. In regards to the testing program, when the winds were in the direction of Las Vegas, no testing was conducted. We only tested when the trajectory of the winds were over low-density populations or uninhabited areas of Utah. When you say uninhabited areas, it doesn't mean that there are no people there; it means that the density is extremely low. Did you read that book Area 51 [by Annie Jacobsen] that was published in 2011? No, I haven't read that. 9 I'd be curious— I wanted to point out, that when the program needed airplanes to do oversight across the country, Leslie went to Washington D.C. and was able to acquire several helicopters for the Public Health Service laboratory here in Las Vegas. Nobody could believe that he went to Washington and just talked everybody into giving him the helicopters. It was a longer story. It's a longer story. What was your motivation— That was my story: I was assigned to the Environmental Protection Agency when it was formed. I was a Commissioned Officer in the Public Health Service and was assigned to the Environmental Protection Agency. In 1972, President Nixon was very interested in the environment. He was doing everything to prevent environmental pollution and improve air and water quality. A task force was instituted to look at a large majority of lakes across the United States. I went to Washington and proposed a program to study several thousand lakes across the United States. I proposed doing it with a group of scientists and limnologists using a fleet of helicopters. It had to be accomplished in a matter of a year and a half because of the environmental conditions of eutrophication of the U S. lakes. The only way to really do that many lakes was to develop special equipment. We needed to fly to a lake with a helicopter and then sample several places in the lake. Due to seasonal variations of the pollutants we sampled each of the lakes three times during the year. We built sampling equipment that had wenches and sensors that were placed into the lakes and we also had samplers that could sample the lake bottom. Then we study the data and see the eutrophication, which is the pollution that occurs from the nitrification of waste products. We did this with the use of three helicopters and establishing bases throughout the United 10 States for servicing the helicopters and repairing them. Since we were all Commissioned Officers, we could use Air Force bases in every state. We had a series of thirty or forty Air Force bases that would service our helicopters, which were Huey helicopters that had been used in Vietnam. That is a story in itself. But we would fly and do testing in many lakes. We also had limnologists with the team and they examined the biota of the lake bottoms. We established the levels of different chemicals within the lakes. We could do a hundred lakes