Transcript of interview with Dr. Ed Goldman by Barbara Tabach, March 22, 2016 and April 4, 2016

AN INTERVIEW WITH DR. ED GOLDMAN An Oral History Conducted by Barbara Tabach Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ?Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV ? University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes, Stefani Evans iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader?s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas iv PREFACE Edward ?Ed? Goldman was born in Rochester, New York in 1951, and spent his childhood in Jerusalem, Israel as well as Cincinnati, Ohio. He received his first bachelor?s degree in political science from Columbia University and a second in Jewish Studies from the University of Judaism. Goldman later received a master?s degree in political science from California State University, and then a doctorate in education and higher administration from UNLV, focusing on educational law. Goldman first moved to Las Vegas while on a leave of absence from his job in Los Angeles to finish his Ph.D. dissertation, working as a math teacher for the Clark County School District. However, it was not until 1981 that Goldman took a full-time position with the district, and moved with his wife, Susan, to the city. After the move, his first job was at Von Tobel Junior High School. Three years later he served as dean at Woodbury Junior High School. From 1989 until 2000, Goldman led recruitment for the school district, and subsequently, he became the Southeast Regent Superintendent. He then was asked to create a new division, Educational Services, which he oversaw for five years. He then took a break from central office administration, returning to the school environment, until he was asked to come back to his previous job as Associate Superintendent for Employee Management Relations. In this interview, Goldman discusses the impact of strategies for addressing segregation in schools, including desegregation lawsuits, as well as anti-Semitism within the district. He also talks about his push, as region superintendent, for K through 8th grade configurations in schools as well as his opening of West Preparatory Institute, a K-12 school in Westside. Goldman discusses the politics of school naming and goes through the various community members who have schools named after them. In addition, he reflects upon how his job as a Clark County School District central office administrator has morphed over the years, and the different issues that demand his time over the years. v TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Dr. Ed Goldman on March 22, 2016 and April 4, 2016 by Barbara Tabach in Las Vegas, Nevada Preface????..??????????????????????????..?..iv SESSION 1 Talks about family history; his grandfather?s service as a chaplain in British army and later as chief rabbi of Israel; growing up in Cincinnati then falling in love with Los Angeles. Reflects on decision to do doctorate at UNLV, to focus on educational law; eventually moving to Las Vegas. Remembers first trips to Las Vegas with college friends in early 1970s, what city was like then versus now???????????????.??....1-9 Discusses growth and physical expansion of Las Vegas; emergence of Green Valley and expansion of Henderson. Talks about role of Temple Beth Sholom in city; relationship with Cantor Kohn; the cantor recruiting him to teach in Las Vegas, as Hebrew and math teacher. Describes the interview experience; politics around attempting to offer Hebrew in public schools; later being recruited by school district???????????..?.10-16 Finally moves to Las Vegas, to teach in Clark County School District as well as Beth Sholom Hebrew School; begins doctoral program at UNLV. Discusses the Las Vegas school system in 1980s, in comparison to Los Angeles. Recalls first job at Von Tobel JHS, then at Woodbury JHS; financial advantages of working in Las Vegas versus Los Angeles. Discusses city?s strategies to address segregation, including sixth grade centers; desegregation lawsuits?????????????????????????17-23 Reflects upon being Jewish in Las Vegas and efforts to hire more Jewish educators in school district, and other minorities. Describes implementing new teacher recruitment tactics, including attending fairs on East Coast, during city?s population boom, with much success. Compares to today?s staffing strategies which rely on online platforms?......24-30 Talks about career path with school district; how his role has changed as administrative needs have changed as the district has grown. Illustrates how profession has become more litigious. Elaborates about different positions held with district; being pressured to resume leadership role with district; lawsuit brought against district by Hispanic Americans; movement to hire more Jewish educators. Recalls history of Temple Beth Sholom; splitting of congregation???????????????????????......31-40 vi SESSION 2 Describes the history of school district?s office space, where he currently sits; the politics of moving to new offices. Talks about the explosion of new schools to be built in 1990s, and public versus private sector as builders; deciding where buy land and build new schools. Explains the criteria used for naming schools. Shares story of working at Bonanza High School?????????????????????????..41-49 Explains the land requirements for each type of school. Talks about his push for K-8 school configuration as region superintendent; meeting resistance; personal skepticism of ?middle school philosophy.? Mentions opening up a K-12 school in Westside. Talks at length about the process and politics of naming schools after community members; representation of ethnic groups. Lists many schools named after community members???????????..............................................................................50-61 Reflects upon how changing demographics in Las Vegas and its growth have impacted his work. Talks about importance of cultural understanding when teaching; Jewish education in the community, from role of Hebrew School to Adelson Education Campus. Mentions Carolyn Goodman starting The Meadows School??????.????????..62-66 Discusses quality of education in Las Vegas, and how it varies amongst pockets of the community; working with the unions and the changes in dynamics between them and the district over the years. Compares issues at ?good schools? versus ?at-risk schools.? Talks about sexuality activity norms amongst middle school and high school students??..67-73 Index...............................................................................................................................74-75 vii 1 SESSION 1 This is Barbara Tabach. It's March 22, 2016. I'm sitting in Dr. Goldman's office at Clark County School District. We're going to talk first about the Jewish heritage. It sounds like you were born in Israel, you said. What do you know about your Jewish roots? I wouldn't say a lot. My father researched and he goes way back. On my father's side, his father was born in the United States and it was his grandfather who emigrated here from Poland/Russia. Obviously, it changed hands during the nineteenth century. My cousin does heritage business for a living. I'll be glad to give you access to it if you want. Wow. That's great. She traces everything about it. I just know in general. My (paternal) grandfather met my grandmother in New York. Eventually, my grandfather moved to Israel and was a chaplain in the British Army during World War II, and he was stationed in Cairo, Egypt. He has some fascinating stories of his involvement with the Israeli Underground from being a Jew, but also being a British officer in Palestine. One of his stories that he was involved in was made into a play and a book. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called Between Two Hearts. No. I'll tell you about briefly because it's a fascinating story. He was a British Army officer. He was a captain. He was a chaplain. So even though it was the British who would, from time to time, execute the Jewish Underground fighters, the one thing they were never denied is chaplain services especially before they were executed or to be executed. So here he was: a rabbi, a chaplain, a British Army officer. I think he worked clandestinely with the Jewish Underground; it wasn't 2 Israel yet. In this particular story, two young men?in Israel, they are very famous?were sentenced to be executed, and he was their chaplain. The British would come to his house and say, "All right, you've got ten minutes; you've got to come with us; bring your Bible, whatever else you want to bring." It turned out that these two Underground fighters, through various means, were able to smuggle pieces of a hand grenade in a pomegranate, which they then pieced together. Their plan was just before they were executed to explode the hand grenade and kill all the British around them including themselves, of course. My grandfather refused to leave them and they did not want to kill him. They kept saying, "Thank you, chaplain, thank you very much, goodbye." He said, "I am not going to have your last memories be of all these non-Jews around you." He wouldn't leave, so they had to change their plan. They took the grenade and put it between them and blew themselves up rather than be hung; hence, Between Two Hearts, because he was in the room. Otherwise, their plan was to blow the whole gallows area apart. They turned it into a play and wrote a book about it. That's an amazing story. It is. Did you know your grandfather? Yes, very well. What was his name? Jacob. When the war was over he became the personal private secretary to the chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Herzog at the time. He published all his books and put a lot of stuff together for him. The prayer for the State of Israel, which is recited in the Saturday morning prayers now, he wrote. 3 The chief rabbi gave it to him to write and he did and did his editing, and the chief rabbinate issued it. That one never had an author on it because it was issued by the chief rabbinate. But he told me he wrote. That was his job. The chief rabbi would give him these assignments. Then he worked for the American Joint Distribution Committee until he passed away. That's quite the legacy. Yes. He was a real expert on old Jerusalem. You could go by any street and he'd tell you he knew the old Arabs that had lived there a hundred years before and all that kind of stuff. Like I said, he was born in Rochester, New York. He met my grandmother when he was a student in New York. She was living in New York. Her father had been an activist in Palestine and was pro-British, anti-Turkish way back in eighteen hundred something, and the Turks expelled him from Palestine because he was pro-British. That's how he got to New York. So they were living in New York and my grandmother met my grandfather and they got married. I already told you my grandfather's part of it. So that's on that side. On my maternal grandmother?s side?this is as far history back as I know?she had eleven brothers and sisters. Five of them left Poland during the '30s. The other five remaining (siblings) and my great-grandparents were killed by the Nazis. They've traced their history. It was really the Poles; it wasn't the Germans. When the Germans were there, but it was the Poles. On her father's side, my maternal grandfather, they were just two brothers. My grandfather died of leukemia when he was like forty-seven, so I didn't really know him. I don't remember his brother. I think he died in Poland during World War II; I'm not sure. That's as far back as I go. That is interesting. That's quite the foundation to launch a young person. Right. Do you have siblings? 4 I do. I have a sister who is two years younger. I have a brother who is nine years younger. And I have a sister who is fourteen years younger. Did you grow up in New York or where did you spend most of your childhood? Rochester, New York, and then when I was six or eight, my parents moved to Cincinnati. My father worked for Metropolitan Life and they transferred him to Cincinnati, and so I grew up there. We went to Israel, lived there for five years, then came back to New York. By that time, I was a junior in high school and went to prep school. Then I went to Columbia and Jewish Theological Seminary. I couldn't stand New York. I fell in love with Los Angeles when I went there. They sent me there from Camp Ramah. They needed counselors at Camp Ramah in California. I wanted to stay in California so I lived there until I moved here in '81. What brought you to Las Vegas in 1981? It was really weird. I was ready to do my doctorate. I'm one of these people I've got to get it out of the way. It was like, I'm done with my master's?two of them, actually?and I've got to get that doctorate out of the way because...Well, just get it out of the way. I'll do it in ten years or whatever and it never gets done. I was looking for schools to go to. I really didn't want to leave Los Angeles, but in L.A. there were only two doctoral programs. One was at UCLA and you couldn't get into it unless you were a very high-level district administrator because there were so few spaces. It's a state university; it was free. The other was USC and at the time?we're talking thirty years ago?they were charging a hundred and fifty dollars a credit; I couldn't afford that. So USC was out of the question. The only other one really was Claremont Graduate School that offered doctoral programs in what I was interested in, which is school law, and one or two others, but none of them were in L.A. I just hate driving and Claremont was ninety miles each way and driving there and 5 back twice a week wasn't going to happen. So I started looking at the Arizona schools, San Diego, San Francisco, and I looked here as well, as far as New Mexico; I wasn't going to go further east than that. UNLV had a very alluring program. The doctoral program was summer concentrated; you could do it all in the summer, one summer, the next summer, the next summer. It was great. I did it one summer. I was accepted. They only took in like seven every year. I was accepted for one summer. Then I went back to L.A. because I was still working for the L.A. Unified School District. It was great. I could do it during the summer and then do it the next summer. Then I had to write my dissertation and I had to be here. The professors here were giving me a hard time about the commuting and they wanted me here. At first they were accommodating. I'd make appointments with them on weekends. I didn't have to come in every week, but two or three times a semester. I just needed to be here. So I took a leave of absence from L.A. and I got a job as a math teacher with the school district here. I've been here ever since. That's interesting. What a colorful background. So lead me through the degrees that you earned. I have a bachelor's degree in political science. I have a bachelor's degree in Jewish Studies from the University of Judaism. I have a master's degree in political science constitutional law from California State University. Then I have my doctorate in education and higher administration with an emphasis on school law from UNLV. How did you decide that that's where you ultimately wanted to be in that...? I've always liked constitutional law, school law; things like that. That was always an interest of mine. My master's dissertation was on the constitution and citizenship, the Fourteenth Amendment. So I kind of had a background in that. My professors. It's interesting. My adviser 6 professor, Professor Goldberg at California State, was Jewish and that was kind of his area. California State University political science, at that time, encompassed six areas, so I had to pick one. Political theory was one. Constitutional law was another. Foreign relations was another one. Public administration was another one. My adviser, whom I really like, was a constitutional lawyer, so he kind of geared me into that. But I liked it, anyway. Almost my whole family are lawyers. My father is a lawyer. My brother-in-law is a lawyer. My brother is a lawyer. My nephew is a lawyer. They're all lawyers. I don't mind the legal part of it; I just can't stand writing briefs, appearing in courts, and writing deeds. So it was always an area of interest of mine, and that was the area I picked for my master's. Then doctorate was the same thing. It was great; you could work in school law and then write your dissertation in that area. Interesting. So when you moved here, it must have been shortly after when you married Susan. I moved here. We were engaged. She was still teaching in L.A. for one year, so we kind of commuted. She was in a year-round school. I was off June, July and August, and she was off September, October, March and April. She was in a year-round schedule. We got married the following year in July. What did she think about moving to Las Vegas? We made a deal; she would move here for one year and if she didn't like it, then we were both moving back to L.A. I didn't dislike L.A. I really liked L.A. I was here; I stayed here; I thought there were bigger, better opportunities. She did not like it and she was like, "We're going back; that's our deal." Then my father-in-law suddenly passed away; he had a heart attack. He was in Wisconsin. He was an executive vice president for Outboard Marine, Evinrude. Just died on 7 Memorial Day weekend. My mother-in-law was all alone, so we moved her out here. Once she was out here, she wasn't going to move again to L.A. So we just stayed. That's how we ended up staying. Unfortunate, but that's how it happened. Describe what you remember about Las Vegas in that early 1980s. I first came here in '72 to visit, just a weekend from L.A. with some friends. We didn't know anything about it. We assumed there was one casino here, like in Monte Carlo. People don't know that; there is one casino in Monte Carlo. So on the way over here, we stopped in Barstow or someplace and saw all these coupons for motels for five dollars a night. We stayed?I still remember it?at the Gold Key Motel. It was like ten dollars a night. It was very nice and was right across from the Stardust. We unpacked. We went to the front desk and said, "Where's the casino?" He started to laugh. He goes, "Well, which casino are you looking for?" I said, "There's more than one?" He goes, "Yes." He was very nice. We said, "Oh, we didn't realize that. Well, which one would you recommend?" He said, "Why don't you start right across the street?" He says, "You'll see it's called the Silver Slipper. It's not a hotel, but it's just a casino and it's kind of old western like in Gunsmoke and that's probably what you may want to look for. After that you can just walk up and down the Strip and see the rest of them." So we did. The first one was the Silver Slipper. We walked across the street and there was that big slipper. It was kind of western themed in there and just what we expected, like a saloon and the cocktail waitresses. We weren't really supposed to go in there because I was nineteen. Oh, you weren't twenty-one yet. I was not twenty-one. They didn't check that carefully. I only remember being carded before I was twenty-one once and that was at Circus Circus before they had a hotel; it was just the big tent casino. I said, "Oh, no." He said, "Oh, you're nineteen or twenty. You can't be in here." I said, 8 "Oh, okay, thank you." Walked out and came right back in. I never, ever was hassled during the time I was under twenty-one except that one time. So it's kind of interesting. Today I walk around with my granddaughter and they say, "You can't stand still in front of the machines." I said, "Well, she wasn't going to gamble." She's only a year old. They're far more diligent these days. Yes. So that was my first exposure. Then we liked it, my friends and I. Every weekend or so?not every?we had free weekends, Vegas was one destination. The hotels were cheap. What I remember was the Strip was it, the old hotels that had been here forever. It was very safe to walk around here at night. They always said, "Don't worry about it; the Mafia controls this town." And they did. "They don't cause trouble here; they don't want anything; nothing will ever happen at night." Because I said, "What happens to your pickpockets and things?" He said, "Oh, they take them out in the desert and you never see them again." I didn't know what that meant at the time. But it was very safe. People who were walking up and down the Strip. So it was the Strip and the old, original hotels were there?Stardust and the Dunes and the Aladdin and some others. There was downtown, which was...I wouldn't say it was seedy, but it wasn't as same as the Strip. It was glitzy, but everything there was much cheaper, ninety-nine cents. The El Cortez had ninety-nine-cent breakfast. It was very appealing to us. The Treasury Hotel?that was back on the Strip where the Trop is today?it was like fifty-cent midnight buffets. That was the right budget, huh? It was perfect. The funny part about it, it was fifty cents, but if you wanted a drink, the drink was an extra one-sixty-nine. So something wasn't right about that. All the food you can eat, fifty 9 cents; but if you wanted a drink, it was a dollar sixty-nine. So we just drank water. Go to downtown for breakfast or something. But most of it driving around was like sagebrush. I remember by the Education Center of the school district, everything on Flamingo was pretty much sagebrush. There was the school district building. I found out later when it was built, it was so far out of town, which was downtown, and it was the only building on Flamingo. So it was given a number, which is 2832. One of the interesting things is, these little things, is it's the only building on that side that is even numbered; the rest are odd numbered. Nobody can figure out why, which is an issue because when you call for a cab, they go to the other side and they can't find the Ed Center if some teacher is coming here or something looking for it. That's happened often because the evens are across from the Ed Center. It's happened to me. Yes. That's the reason. And they decided not to change it. Why? It was the original building on Flamingo. It was way out of town. They were taking a risk being outside the mainstream of where the population was, which was downtown. They gave it a number. So it was kind of historic. It was 2832 and they weren't going to change it fifty years later. I don't remember when the building was built, but I'm assuming in the '40s. Just as an aside, the school district is also permit number one for the U.S. Post Office. When you do bulk mailing, it says, "No postage if mailed in the United States, permit number one." Those are great anecdotes. I never knew why that was...And I remember getting so confused the first time I went to that building. 10 Right. That's why. So all around it was like sagebrush and slowly little buildings came up. You don't know how it happened because it was slow. Two years later there was another building around there and two years later this and three years...Today you look and say, "What happened to all that vacant land?" That was the desirable part of town. I always refer to it by ZIP code; that was 89121 or 89119; that's where you lived. There were some people who?when I joined Temple Beth Sholom?that lived in what was Green Valley, which was a couple of streets, but there were no grocery stores. They had to drive to Trop and Eastern to go grocery shopping and it wasn't going anywhere. So we lived around that area by Trop and Eastern when we moved here and we bought a house in that same area. Because Trop and Eastern would have been where Freed's Bakery was and all. Yes, everything was there. Then there were some adventurous people who moved to Green Valley, which really was Sunset to High View; that was it. But you couldn't go shopping. There was no grocery store. There was nothing. It was just too inconvenient. It wasn't going anywhere until...I can't even remember what year it just started growing past High View. There was one school, Nate Mack, for all of what was then Green Valley. When we moved to our current house, which is off Wigwam, my wife said, "Where have you brought me? Oh, my God." There wasn't even a light there and Green Valley ended at Wigwam. The big divide was Henderson versus Green Valley. Green Valley ended at Wigwam and Henderson was 89015 and the people in Henderson, some of them had never been to Las Vegas; they heard about it; it was way out there. This is in the '80s we're talking about. We're talking in the '80s. First time I went out there, we didn't live there, but it started slowly to move south. They created Fox Ridge area, which was on Valley Verde, and it slowly started to 11 expand, very slowly. But that was kind of it until they built...It wasn't until in the '90s when the second school was built there. Today we've moved beyond Green Valley and Henderson even though it was always within the municipal boundaries because there were just two ZIP codes; it was 89014, Green Valley, and then 89015 was Henderson. So today with all these ZIP codes that distinction has kind of disappeared between Green Valley and Henderson. We moved to Green Valley in eighty?no, we didn't move there until about '95 to Green Valley. So it was fifteen years later. Today it doesn't stop. It takes your breath away. Yes. I say ZIP codes really tell a lot. So there's 89052 and 89014 split into 89074 on the other side of the tracks. Now there's poor Green Valley and rich Green Valley and ten ZIP codes and it just keeps growing. Now they're connected; back then you had to go to Henderson. It was like a trip. It was geographically different. Completely. And really different people. I was summer school principal at Basic High School one year and it was like a different clientele. It was from out of the '30s or '40s. I met people there that their grandfathers went to Basic and things like that. One woman said yes, she heard of Las Vegas; she was there once, but they just stay in Henderson. We're talking Henderson-Henderson, like way down the Boulder Highway. It was really like that. Sometimes people refer to it as Hendertucky. Right. It was definitely a different culture. Some of it was really nice. It was laid-back. It was like going back to the '50s. I kind of enjoyed my summer there. It was definitely a different clientele than further east. I just kind of watched the town really grow. 12 We had one temple when I came here and that was Beth Sholom. Everybody belonged to Beth Sholom; that was it, kind of Mafia inspired?the Sedways, the Lanskys, and Dalitz was kind of interesting. Their pictures were in there. They were all known mobsters. Ner Tamid started a small temple right around that time. As far as I recall, it was just the two, the one Reform one, very, very small, and a breakaway from Beth Sholom, and then there was Beth Sholom on Oakey. Slowly others started to emerge, an Orthodox congregation here and there, and now we have twenty [congregations]. Obviously, Beth Sholom was not the only Conservative temple, but back then that was the temple. It was kind of nice. I'll tell you a funny story I remember with that. My friends and I always used to go Friday nights to temple. Even in L.A., the people who went Friday didn't go Saturday and the people who went Saturdays didn't go Fridays. We couldn't believe there was a temple in Las Vegas, so we looked it up. We were staying on the Strip somewhere. We went to services at Beth Sholom on a Friday night. They used to introduce people and they had a nice little Kiddush afterwards. I was introduced to the cantor, Cantor Kohn, and the rabbi. I can't think of his name right now. I can still see him. There were so many of them there. I was there with all of them including this one. After services the cantor said?he had a lot of connections on the Strip?"You want to go to a show or anything?" I said, "Sure." He said, "Just a minute." So Cantor Kohn picked up the phone and called somebody he knew. He said, "All right, you're all set. Just tell them Cantor Kohn sent you." It was a nice show at Caesars. In those days the shows had dinners with them. We went to a show that Saturday night. It was on the house. They used to comp things. We got great seats. It was really nice. So then, gee, every time we came here we went to temple on Friday night and Cantor Kohn always picked up the phone and 13 he got us a different show. Not exactly a typical tourist stop. I know. It was like, hey, let's go to temple. "Oh, we have our guests from L.A. again." And so on. It reminds me of something that's kind of interesting for historical purposes. There was a big surge during that time?middle to late '70s, '75, '76?I think nationally, in terms of Jewish pride, Jewish education, introducing Hebrew as a foreign language, not just Spanish in the public school system. I got a call from Cantor Kohn one day when I was in L.A. and he said, "Let me talk to you about Hebrew." He said, "I know you teach it." I said, "Yes, actually California issues teaching credentials in Hebrew; I happen to have one." I taught math, but I had my Hebrew one. He said, "Well, after a lot of badgering by our parents, and all the Jewish kids here go to really only two high schools." It was Valley and Clark. There may be a few others scattered, but that's it. He said, "We finally politically had a big fight with the school district and they gave in and they agreed to offer Hebrew as a choice foreign language." Their only caveat was that obviously there had to be enough students to warrant a class. We're talking thirty students who wanted to take Hebrew. If there were sixty, then they could open two sections and so on. He goes, "We've managed to get about ninety kids, so we can offer three sections. The only other thing that we have to agree to is that we are going to find the Hebrew teacher because they couldn't find one.??And Nevada didn't even license Hebrew; it would have to be some sort of emergency endorsement that the state had agreed to.??But we have to find someone who can teach Hebrew. And it's not just knowing Hebrew. You have to have all your educational stuff and so on. Would you be interested?" I said, "I'm willing to talk about it." He was also the Hebrew school director. He said, "And I'll employ you after school so you can make more money." I said, "I can't live on 14 teaching half a position, but I'm also a math teacher and they're always looking for math teachers, so if we could combine them." He said, "I'll pay you ten thousand dollars to do a couple of hours of Hebrew school in the afternoon at the temple." That was a lot of money in those days in the mid-70s for Hebrew schoolteachers. I said, "Well, I'm interested. I'm willing to consider it." In the end I was, "I'll tell you what, I'm not willing to do a halftime with the school district; and I don't know the school district [there], and work at the temple." I had this thing as I'm never going to be indebted, so to speak, to Jewish organizations for my livelihood. They're not easy to deal with sometimes and it gets very...No thank you. It's okay as a side job, but not your full-time job. And I had a career and I was not going to just give it up. So he said, "All right, l