Transcript of interview with Hank Greenspun by Perry Kaufman, 1975

i AN INTERVIEW WITH HANK GREENSPUN An Oral History Conducted by Perry Kaufman, 1975 The Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ?Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2014 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV ? University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Project Manager: Barbara Tabach Transcriber: Kristin Hicks Interviewers: Barbara Tabach, Claytee D. White Editors and Project Assistants: Maggie Lopes, Stefani Evans iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of a Library Services and Technology Act (LSTA) Grant. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank University of Nevada Las Vegas for the support given that allowed an idea the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader?s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews with permission of the narrator. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted or transcribed under the auspices of the Southern Nevada Jewish Community Digital Heritage Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas 1 I came to Las Vegas towards the end of 1946. Why did you come? What brought you here? What drew you to Las Vegas? Well, I had just gotten out of the Army after six years in the Army. I was back from France and I had been hurt and I was in the hospital in England for about four months and I had married a war bride and I came over here. I went into the practice of law down on Wall Street or Pine Street, which is in the vicinity there. Needless to say, after all those years in the Army and three and a half, four years of company commander with all the responsibilities, I have a facility of being able to accomplish something when it has to be done and then I fall apart when it's over. When I got out of Army, I went into the practice of law and I was always kind of torn up inside after France and after what we went through over in Germany and all those things. I was about ready to fall apart except that a client of our office who was a racetrack promoter came up and he showed me a magazine about Las Vegas, Nevada. He was ready to put up a racetrack in Buffalo, but because of the war controls he couldn't put it in. And he told me that Tom Mix had come to him back in 1940 and told him about this little place way out west that someday would be the resort area of America. Of course, I checked it out later and, sure enough, Tom Mix had a lot of options on land here and he was very much interested. And Tom Mix wanted to put in a racetrack here in Las Vegas and he wanted this Joe Smoot to do it for him because he was a racetrack promoter and he was a client of the office in which I was a general partner. Schmoot showed me this place. He says that when I vote away for the racing law?at that time there was no way that racing would pay in Nevada because it's just too small; there was nothing there. He says but now according to this magazine?I think it was the Saturday Post?he says they're building the Golden Nugget. And he says the fellow that's building it?Guy McAfee used to be on the vice squad in Los Angeles when he was building Santa Anita. And he says I used to pay him off. So he says I'd just like to go out there and see now what kind of a place this is. In other words, he was promoting me for the use of my car; the drive is all it was. But I was ready for the vacation because I couldn't stand all these tall buildings around me. I was living in Little Neck, New York. And to come in on the Long Island Railroad every day, I just can't tell you the feeling of depression I had with all these tall buildings. It looked like every day I'd walk it they were going to fall in on top of me. 2 So Smoot and I drove across the country in my car. And all the way across it was snow and hail and blizzards and everything else and it was a trying experience. When we got to Las Vegas, Nevada, we checked into the Last Frontier Hotel, which was almost like a motel. There were only two, the Last Frontier and the El Rancho. The Flamingo was building, but it was nowhere near completion. I checked in. I went into the swimming pool to take a swim and the sun warmed me and I felt so?it was such a remarkable experience after New York and France and the hospitals and everything else that I went right back into my room and I called my wife, who was now pregnant, in New York. She couldn't come because she was pregnant. And I says come on out on the next train; I am never coming back; this is where I want to live the rest of my life. Everything was so open and it was so clean and it was so free and the sun was so warm. I just made up my mind that this is what I've been seeking, the solitude, and I never went back. And that's the story. I decided to take the Nevada bar. I used to go to the law library and I used to try to refresh my mind on what would be required to pass the bar. I ran into a couple of newspaper people here who I had known back in New York. One of them even went to law school with me. He still writes for me, Ralph Pearl. Oh, yes. Of course, he went broke here. I guess he came out to do a story or something. He went broke. That's right. And he immediately moved into my room at the Last Frontier and I used to sign checks for his food and everything else. So I says how long is this going to keep up; I've got a wife coming out? He says, well, why don't we start a magazine? He says, and you'll be the publisher and I'll be the columnist and we'll make a lot of money because a magazine is what we need here. So we started a damn magazine and I was the publisher. That didn't go too well, but I got to know everybody here through the magazine. The Las Vegas Life, right? The Las Vegas Life. And that's how I came to Las Vegas and that's how I established a foothold, so to speak. And naturally my mother and father came out. Then my sister came out. Then my 3 other sister came out. Then my brother came out. The first thing you know we had a little tribe here. From the magazine I gravitated into the radio business. Of course, the town lacked most everything. So I got an interest in a radio station. And from that I became very friendly with Wilbur Clark. He was thinking of building the Desert Inn at the time because he was over at the El Rancho. I put in a little money with him. That's the beginnings and that's how I stayed here. There's one part you've left out and that was your association?you were publicity director at the Flamingo Hotel at one time, right? Yes. How did that association come about? That association came about when we did a story on the Flamingo, building, and the opening was going to take place I think in December of 1946. That's right. The other newspaper, the Review-Journal, used to print this magazine for me, so every week I was in there checking all the proofs. And the editor of the other newspaper was Al Cahlan. While I was checking the proofs, because right outside of his office was a print shop, he came out with some very good-looking man and he says to me, Hank, he says, do you know Mr. Siegel? Well, I had never met Mr. Siegel. I had heard something about him. Although I was over in France most of the time while he was coming up, murder incorporated and all that, I wasn't too conscious of his background. He says do you know Mr. Siegel? I says no. Benny Siegel looks at this little magazine of mine. He says, oh, you're the one who puts this out? I says yes. He says how much is a back page? So I said $250. I should have said 500 because he was ready to pay anything. He says it's a very good book. He says you did a great story on the Flamingo. He says a very good book. He says I'll take the back page. He says how much is it in color? I said 300. He said we'll take it in color. That's how I became acquainted with Mr. Siegel, first time. 4 Well, he had partners in the Flamingo. One was Billy Wilkerson, who was the publisher of the Hollywood Reporter. Billy Wilkerson used to hire the publicity people for the Flamingo Hotel. As fast as he would hire them, Siegel would fire them. And before the place even opened he already had gone through about three or four of them. Then another fellow comes in by the name of Paul Price. He came in to do publicity for the Flamingo Hotel. He was with the Herald Express at that time and he was also on television and radio in Los Angeles. Naturally Paul grabbed me and he said, look, Hank, he says, I'm going to do publicity on this place; I understand this guy is a complete nut; I don't know how long I'm going to last. He says you know everybody in town, because it was a small town and I published a magazine, so I knew everybody. He says why don't you do the local publicity and I'll do the national publicity? I read it over a year ago. Well, Paul Price except after me to do local publicity. Money was running short because the magazine wasn't doing too well. Finally, they came up; I think they were going to give me 150 a week to do the local publicity because Paul had asked me. I didn't want to get involved because now the reputation of Mr. Siegel was pretty apparent and being an attorney I certainly didn't want to be involved in that thing. Naturally, the salary attracted. So I still continued the magazine and I just did local publicity. And it made a big change in the Flamingo because I used to write a column in the other paper called Flamingo Chatter. Of course, I was only there for about three weeks or I forget how long it was and then Siegel was killed right after that, in Los Angeles. That was my entire exposure to the fellow. Naturally, I saw him almost every day and I saw him in his good moods and I saw him in his bad moods. Of course, if I was going to make a livelihood of this, I would not have continued. But he was killed and then the new owners came in and I hung out for about six months or so and then I checked out of the Flamingo. So you left sometime in '47; is that right? Yeah. 5 Jumping up?oh, one thing that you might be interested in, an interesting anecdote, I went through the other newspaper and not once before it opened did they ever mention Siegel's name in any of their stories, not once. They did. Are you sure? I don't know. What they did is this. They said ?the owners.? What they did is this, and this is what peeved me off. When Cahlan introduced me to Siegel, he introduced me to Mr. Ben Siegel. I later learned that a memorandum went on bulletin boards down at the Review-Journal that he's never to be referred to as Bugsy Siegel, either Benjamin Siegel or Ben Siegel. And it turned out later that one of the editors down there got the advertising agency for the Flamingo Hotel and that's why this memorandum went out not to refer to him anymore as Bugsy Siegel, but to refer to him as Mr. Ben Siegel or Benjamin Siegel. Well, in all of the newspapers? Of course, I wrote this later on in my paper when I was fighting them. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm aware of the events leading up to and how you received from the Typographical Union or you went in and brought the rights to? The Free Press. ?the Free Press, right. Okay. When you took over what did you decide to do in terms of making it a major newspaper in Las Vegas and to try taking away some of the business from the Las Vegas Review-Journal? I had no plans of any kind. All I knew was that this was my field. I was very upset with the other paper. Even though they had printed the magazine, I was very upset with them because I thought they were not doing the best interests of the American society as I know it. When a Negro was picked up for a crime, they'd have Joe Blow, comma, Negro, comma, today was picked up for something. I didn't believe in this. If it happened to be a Jew, they would have 6 Benjamin Rosencrantz, comma, a Jew, comma, was today picked up for such-and-such a charge. I thought this was a horrendous thing for a newspaper to do. And even though they were printing the magazine, I used to blast them in the magazine for these tactics. Later on when I started the newspaper, we never referred to anybody by their race or their religion. We referred to them by their name and their address. And if anybody was interested in their color or in their religion, they could go over to their house and find out what they were. We didn't believe in the newspaper characterizing people in that way. Little by little they got the idea; they got the import this and they followed suit especially when a lot of Jewish people came in here and started building hotels. Now it was to their interest, of course, that they not antagonize the Jews. But they still did it with the Negros. This was very offensive to me. We set standards with our paper that they did adopt down the line and we made a better paper than theirs. We made this town conscious of newspapering. They were very small although they were a monopoly here for 40 years practically before I started. But nevertheless, we made the town conscious of newspapers with the competition, with this rivalry, and both newspapers prospered because of it. Yes. Why did you decide to take on Pat McCarran? That's a story in itself. I was proud of my role in the newspaper. I happened to be in Washington, D.C. I forget what the period was. I was sitting up in the gallery in the United States Senate and I heard Pat McCarran discussing the McCarran-Walter Immigration. Senator Lehman, who was the former governor of New York, he stood up and he was very incensed and he made a very moving talk against McCarran-Walter Immigration Act. Pat McCarran asked for a point of order or something and naturally it was granted. He says, well, I don't think the senator should be as alarmed about this as he appears to be because who in reality is against this immigration act? He says a brand of cloak-and-suiters in New York. When he said that I could have leaped over that balcony I became so incensed myself. I immediately went downstairs to the cloak room and I sent him a note. Well, as he said that Senator Lehman started walking down the aisle he was so angry. With his two fists like this he started walking down the aisle towards McCarran. Then he must have caught himself and he put 7 his hands over his face and he went and he sat down in his seat and I thought he must be crying or something. He was so incensed over this. So I immediately went down to the cloak room and I sat with one of the attendants. I sent him a note that I'd like to see him and interview and he came up. And I says, Governor, I says, I have a newspaper in Nevada; it's a small one. I says for what this man has done today, for what he has said, I said I'm going to devote my life to purging him from the political situation. He was the most powerful man in the senate, as you know. He was chairman of the Judiciary Committee, chairman of practically everything. He was a very powerful senator. He controlled the state. I came back and I just tore his ass up. And that's when the feud started. I told that I was going to do that; I told that to Lehman for what he had done that day on the floor of the senate. He exhibited such hatred, such bigotry, such incidence that I thought he doesn't belong in the political system of our nation. That's when the feud started. Now, before that when I started the paper, some of us cohorts and even up in the northern part of the state, the Bank Club, which was Bill Graham, they came down. They really gave me half-page ads and the senator wooed me. And if he was going to Henderson to make a speech, I rode with him; this is McCarran. But after I heard that speech on the floor of the senate, all bets were off and I attacked him through my own whimsical fashion, let's say. I called him a despot and a racist and everything. I started an investigation to find out what organizations he belonged to and we found out that he had contributed to the Columbian Order in South Carolina, which was a virulent anti-Semitic group, anti-Negro. And I figured that this man has to get his comeuppance. Right after I did that the Bank Club canceled their advertising. At first they tried to make all sorts of deals and all that. The next thing you know every hotel on the Strip and every casino canceled their advertising with me. And then I started the lawsuit against him, which I guess you read about it. Right. That was settled for 85,000 out of court; is that right? Yes, about that. I forget what it was. I didn't have much money at that time, but that gave me money to buy a new press. 8 I don't mention sources, but one of the people suggested that indeed that happened. He was a source very close, a competitor of yours, and he said that happened. But I also interviewed Art Ham and Art Ham was the attorney for the conglomerate of? The old man was, Art Ham, Sr. Art Ham, Sr., was, yeah. He's dead now. Well, Art Ham, Jr., suggested that McCarran really never knew of the consortium; that they were going to do this. That was not right. Well, that's?I don't know. But certainly all indications pointed to it; that he instituted the call to Marion Hicks at the Thunderbird Hotel. Marion Hicks called a meeting and said they must pull their advertising out of the paper; it's the old man's wishes. They had a meeting at the downtown clubs and they told them that it was McCarran's wishes. They all pulled it out at the same time, on a Monday morning. Right, right. I saw the ads. I cannot conceive in any way that McCarran was not a conscious member. In fact, Judge Roger Foley, who was appointed by McCarran, who was recommended to Truman for the appointment to federal judge, a cohort of McCarran. Of course, McCarran also had to pacify him as chairman of the Judiciary Committee for the appointment. So you knew...he recommended him to Truman. Then he had to pacify him. And you knew that Judge Foley was beholden to him, lock, stock, all the way. And when I started the lawsuit, everybody says, well, you better disqualify Judge Foley because he's going to destroy you; you don't have a chance with him while McCarran's on the other side. My statement was I'm going into the federal courts of the United States to ask for simple justice, and if I can't get it in the federal courts, then this whole thing is useless anyway. I says he will stay on the case; I will not disqualify. And Judge Foley was a rock, a rock of integrity and a rock of ?up-righteousness? because the first thing he did was to order all the hotels to put their advertising back at the highest level. 9 Mine was paid (indiscernible). When McCarran's attorneys tried to?they petitioned before the court to relieve him from the case on the ground that he hadn't been tied in as a member of this conspiracy. Foley said there's nothing been brought before this Court to show that he is not an active conspirator and he will stay in the case and he will immediately give a deposition. So in this case the federal court has vindicated my faith in them. Foley to me has always been a champion of all the good things that our federal system, judicial system stands for. Yes. The other thing that really fascinates?I didn't like. I didn't know Pat McCarran; he's before my time. But everything I've read about him, although he certainly was good for the state in a lot of ways? No question about it. ?he was what I consider a very destructive person. Well, let's say that he certainly was an exponent of all alien philosophies. Vengeful person. Vengeful, ?recriminative,? vindictive, and he had an alien thinking to what the Constitution of the United States stands for; that was my judgment of him and it was borne out many, many times. Just the attitude of people, other senators and people, they disliked Pat McCarran very much. Completely autocratic, authoritarian in his thinking. Anyone that got in his way, he would really have to purge. He believed in purges and I was one of those that he purged?he tried to purge. Frank McCulloch, who's now the East Coast editor of Time Life, he ran a little weekly up North. Frank and I are very dear friends. And when he tried to get Frank out of the business, I also took him on. When he tried to do it to Denver Dickerson, I also took him on. He tried to do it to little Morry Zenoff up in Henderson here and his paper just because I sat with Morry Zenoff. I went up to listen to McCarran's speech; I drove up with McCarran to Henderson to listen to his speech. And just because I sat down next to Morry Zenoff, who had this little Henderson paper, 10 he was so exasperated, he went off and he left me and I had to get a drive back. That's how he was. Yeah, yes. I've heard stories of him carrying on, actually fisticuffing with people that said things he didn't like. You asked me a question of whether I have a good feeling about a society or destructive to it? One of my let's say most avowed enemies, an adversary from way, way back, a fellow who I have accused of everything under the sun is an attorney who had lawsuits against me that wouldn't stop. Mr. Jones. I once asked him whether I was good for the state, if I had ever contributed anything to the state. He says let's say this; if a poll was had on who was the most beneficial for the state of Nevada and its economy and everything else and who was the most destructive to the state of Nevada, he says Hank Greenspun would be at the head of both polls. That's true. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure of that. But that came from an enemy. Of course, from a friend, I don't think they would have put me at the head of destructive. I mean which is a tribute. It means that we just did our job, period, as a newspaper. We called it; anything that we thought the public had a right to know, we let the public know. It might have appeared destructive to the state at that time, but in the long run it was beneficial because if the public knows what's going on, they're going to make the right decisions at the polls. If they don't know what's going on, they're operating in ignorance; they don't know. So I believe in exposing everything. And I never used my paper as a vehicle for personal advancement. When I was indicted on this Israeli thing, I waited until the afternoon to take the guilty plea so I can have the story first. It was a big headline, ?Greenspun Pleads Guilty.? I wouldn't give the other paper the satisfaction of beating me on my own stories. When I was indicted many times for various offenses, alleged offenses, I always waited, to make sure that our paper had it first because that was my job as a newspaperman to see that my paper was the first with the news. 11 So in the long run I think we have been beneficial. We made it an open society down here where before it was a closed society. We would not have all these Strip hotels because at that time you couldn't get a gambling license unless McCarran approved it or Al Cahlan approved it or the Golden Nugget approved it, which is Art Ham that you're talking about. They had a closed monopoly. Are you sure of that? What do you mean am I sure of it? No, I mean?yeah. These are facts. The partners down at the Golden Nugget was Guy McAfee?oh, I'm trying to remember some of the names. Art Ham, Sr., was one of them. Art Ham, Sr., who we later became good friends. Art Ham is a good friend of mine. Art Ham, Jr., is a very good friend of mine. Of course, he's not going to say this actually was so. But they did control the politics of the state through Pat McCarran. Well, how did it work; in other words, if someone applied for a gaming license? They didn't have a prayer unless they were approved by this little (pollery) that I'm talking about. McCarran, number one; Al Cahlan, number two. The anomaly of the whole thing is when the other paper was sold to Don Reynolds and Al Cahlan got the shaft, so to speak, from Reynolds, he came to work for me. Yes. Because he was a good newspaperman and he had a lot of knowledge about the state and I don't bear any recriminations or vengeance or vindictiveness of any kind. I believe anyone that can do this paper good I'm going to employ them. Jumping back?I'd like to get back to this, but I'd like to go up a little bit. Why did you decide to take on Joe McCarthy, then? That apparently fit in with McCarran because they were in some sense aligned in ways. 12 They both were molded; their minds were molded in the same fashion. Joe McCarthy I had recognized as a menace from the very first day he opened up his mouth in the Senate. One of the first, you were one of the first in the country. I was one of the first. He's another George Wallace. Each generation has its demigods, political opportunist who seizes upon popular issues to exploit. At that time the big cry was communism. So Joe McCarthy was against communism, although his record will show he was probably way to the left of the New Deal when he started in politics. I wrote the series on him. I don't know if you ever saw that series on him. He used to say if you opened up the briefcase of the new member of the firm, this conservative Republican firm in Madison, Wisconsin, you'll find a copy of the Daily Word in his briefcase. That was Joe McCarthy. I wrote all that. But he came out here in 1952 to speak supposedly for George ?Molly? Malone. [End Tape 1, Side A] And presumably to lead for General Eisenhower in 1952 election. Well, I had written a column the day before?that morning that no self-respecting, no person who believes in the principles of our government should listen to this man because he's a demigod in a blue cloth and he's a wolf in sheep's clothing. He preaches patriotism, but he's the antithesis of everything American. And I went on in this vein. I said that they should actually boycott this meeting, although every man is entitled to speak his mind, but that this man is no good for our nation because he accuses people without proof and he does it from the sanctity of the senate floor where it's a privileged area and you can't get back at him through the court system. So I says people like that should not be encouraged. So we can only show our distaste for his tactics by remaining away from the meeting. But naturally I went to the meeting and that's when the whole row started. I'd have loved to have been there. It got so bad?a fellow by a name of Herman Seldman sat next to me. He's a Christian scientist. And McCarthy, instead of talking for Eisenhower and Malone, he really took off after me; your local ?Daily Worker;? that kind of thing. He says I've got documents in my hand right here, and he's waving, that he had asked the United Press to check on me or something, which is 13 completely untrue because I didn't even think about it. I would have done it if I had thought of it, but I didn't do it. And he went on in this vein and he just tore me apart. And people who I had known for years, they sat next me (neighbor snayzing), boo. They would look me right in my face and booing me and hissing me and everything else. It looked like he was creating a lynch situation there. And this Christian Scientist is sitting alongside of me and he's patting me on the leg and he says, now, Hank, he says, keep cool. He says keep calm. He says he's making a big man of you. Don't lose your temper; don't lose your temper. Let him talk. And he's patting me. And before this thing was over, this Christian Scientist was trying to grab him at the door to punch him in the head; that's how bad it got. [Laughing] He was saying for me to keep calm and cool and there's he's ready to whack him. Of course, the cops took him out of the hall when I took over the microphones. Fortunately, I came prepared for sort of a press conference and then I had all the facts of the Malmedy massacre where he had championed the Nazi murderers at one of the senate committees by trying to disparage the testimony of some of the Americans who escaped assassination by feigning dead when they fell on each other, all these bodies when they mowed them down. Remember at Malmedy? Right. One of the captain errants in particular, they left him there for dead. Later on he recovered from his wounds and he came back and he testified to what happened at Malmedy. And McCarthy kept trying to disparage his testimony and to destroy his credibility. I said an American captain who was the president would have been dead except that the other bodies fell on top of him. And he's trying to uphold, only because in Wisconsin they had a lot German following. So he was still looking for votes from the Germans. So now he's upholding this Malmedy massacre. When I took over and they had the veterans groups down there for McCarthy, a lot of the veterans with their overseas caps and everything, I told them what I thought of them. Oh, he started out about my war record. He says Greenspun doesn't tell you that at the height of the war, the Battle of the Bulge, he had deserted; he left his company. And I'm trying to think, well, when in the hell did I ever desert? I was a company commander. I couldn't remember. I 14 mean I was completely flabbergasted by what was going on, because he was kind of a spellbinder you know. Then I remember that, hell, I was knocked out at the end of September. The Battle of the Bulge...I was in the hospital in England when the Battle of the Bulge took place and I was on crutches. Of course, I went AWOL at from the hospital at night to be with my wife on New Year's Eve, so that was what he was talking about. It was an AWOL situation, only for one night, which was a joke, from a hospital on crutches. So how did I impede the war effort? All these lies...he would take a little grain of truth and he'd weave it into this tremendous fabric of distortions and untruths and everything else. When I ran to the platform, I just wanted to see what he was waving in his hands, the papers. All I wanted to see was the proof he was talking about. Of course, he thought I was going to attack him and that's when he jumped. I tried to grab them and he jumped off the platform. Of course, the United Press and the others, they sent pictures out the next day of my trying to reach him and he's jumping off the platform. The caption was show me your proof, senator?no??You dirty demigod, show me your proof.? From anyplace he went after that they all asked for proof and he never had any proof. And that's why the next day he went to San Francisco. They wouldn't let him on a television station before?his fifth, he refused to show it. They wouldn't let him on the television station. But this picture went all over the country. So in effect, I did have some, let's say, impact on exposing this man that he was such a colossal opportunist and liar. There have been a couple of good studies just come out recently. Have you seen Griffith's study, ?The Politics of Fear,? on McCarthy, the McCarthy era? No. But the interesting thing about that era, from that day forward I never let up on him. Including Jim Pearson used to call me and they'd say, Hank, throw it all away, you're driving him crazy. Like, I accused him of being a homosexual and I printed affairs he presumably had with young Republicans in different hotel rooms and all that stuff. Now, when the press would grab him, the senator, they'd say to him, Senator, Greenspun just accused you of having an affair with somebody in Wausau, Wisconsin, another Republican or somebody. Have you any comment? 15 Well, if he had said ?no comment,? they would have been able to say in answer to the question he said no comment. So he dare not reply or else it becomes a privileged question. So he would just turn on his heel and walk away. And this was slowly driving him nuts because I was feeding these guys, in effect, the questions to ask him. Of course, the more they asked him, the more he would go down and down and down. Unfortunately, the series I did on him wasn't in time for the Wisconsin election when he was running for re-election because it was all reprinted there after the election. But some of those farmers up there, they don't like queers and all