Zunino, Jack W. Interview, 2016 August 30. OH-02816. [Transcript.] Oral History Research Center, Special Collections & Archives, University Libraries, University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Las Vegas, Nevada.
i AN INTERVIEW WITH JACK W. ZUNINO An Oral History Conducted by Stefani Evans and Claytee D. White The Building Las Vegas Oral History Project Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries University of Nevada Las Vegas ii ©The Building Las Vegas Oral History Project University of Nevada Las Vegas, 2016 Produced by: The Oral History Research Center at UNLV University Libraries Director: Claytee D. White Editor: Stefani Evans Transcribers: Kristin Hicks, Frances Smith Interviewers: Stefani Evans and Claytee D. White Project Manager: Stefani Evans iii The recorded interview and transcript have been made possible through the generosity of the UNLV University Libraries. The Oral History Research Center enables students and staff to work together with community members to generate this selection of first-person narratives. The participants in this project thank the university for the support given that allowed an idea and the opportunity to flourish. The transcript received minimal editing that includes the elimination of fragments, false starts, and repetitions in order to enhance the reader’s understanding of the material. All measures have been taken to preserve the style and language of the narrator. In several cases photographic sources accompany the individual interviews. The following interview is part of a series of interviews conducted under the auspices of the Building Las Vegas Oral History Project. Claytee D. White Director, Oral History Research Center University Libraries University Nevada, Las Vegas iv PREFACE "So here is this silly kid from Elko, Nevada. I walk the Riverwalk [in San Antonio, Texas,] with a group of designers. The Riverwalk is miles long and at the end . . . there's this building right across the street from where you surface. I said, "Gosh, that building looks just like the Alamo." Everybody went, "Oh, my God, this guy; did he just fall out of the shopping cart or what?" Landscape architect Jack W. Zunino is a Fellow of the American Society of Landscape Architects (ASLA) and president of the Society's local chapter. He has designed many of Southern Nevada's iconic landscapes: the Rio Hotel, the M Resort, the Desert Demonstration Gardens, the gardens at Ethel M. Chocolates, the Cactus Avenue overpass, and most notably, the Springs Preserve. He's also a third-generation Nevadan from Elko, grandson of Italian immigrants who met and married in the Silver State and raised their large family in that Nevada mining town. The product of Elko schools, he graduated from the University of Utah in psychology and Utah State University in landscape architecture while earning his tuition as a road construction laborer. v In this interview, Zunino tells of his employment with G.C. Wallace Engineering and JMA architects before founding his own landscape architecture firm in 1989. He speaks to the importance of planners and landscape architects on Southern Nevada's conservation goals and efforts. He credits the work of Steve Wynn and Lifescapes International for creating The Mirage, which generated in Las Vegas a newfound appreciation of the art, the vision, and the function of landscape architecture. He traces the evolution of landscape architecture in casino design from one that beckoned guests to enter by offering them free outdoor attractions (Mirage and Bellagio) to one that teased would-be guests with mystery by allowing only those who enter to see the treasures within. Along the way, he speaks to his appreciation of the efforts of Frankie Sue Del Papa to legislating landscape funding into Nevada Department of Transportation projects, his twenty-year teaching collaboration with Mark Hoversten at UNLV and of partnering with Hoversten to create the master concept design for Las Vegas Springs Preserve. He urges local politicians and other landscape architects to involve local residents in charrettes in order to incorporate their ideas, and he believes landscape architecture can create community among the homeless population by asking the beneficiaries what services they want and incorporating pride of place. Thirty years after he opened his own practice, the silly kid from Elko continues to grow his impact on Southern Nevada's landscape and to groom the next generation of local landscape architects. And for the record, he no longer thinks the Alamo is a replica. See the JW Zunino Landscape Architecture records, MS-00891, at UNLV Lied Library Special Collections. vi TABLE OF CONTENTS Interview with Jack W. Zunino August 20, 2016 in Las Vegas, Nevada Conducted by Stefani Evans and Claytee D. White Preface…………………………………………………………………………..………..iv Italian immigrant grandparents to Nevada by the late 1800s, settled in Elko. Elko birth and childhood; University of Utah (Psychology) and Utah State University (Landscape Architecture); 1982-1985 land planning for Summerlin through G.C. Wallace Engineering and 1985-1989 director of landscape architecture at JMA architects; 1989 Stan Johnson, Dan Hill, J.W. Zunino Landscape Architecture, and Small Business Association development program at UNLV; current projects city park, Nevada Department of Transportation gateways, and other commercial, residential, and public projects; impact of landscape architects and landscape architecture on Southern Nevada planning and conservation……………………………….……………..……………………..……. 1–14 Landscape architecture, engineering, and architecture; Las Vegas and landscape architecture; The Mirage as catalyst for appreciation of landscape architecture; Wynn's evolution from beckoning guests in (Mirage and Bellagio) to enticing them with mystery (Wynn and Encore); the M Resort, xeriscape landscaping, and the mini-oasis concept; American Society of Landscape Architects, ASLA; teaching at UNLV, Mark Hoversten, and master concept design for Las Vegas Springs Preserve; Frankie Sue Del Papa, NDOT, highway landsape and aesthetics, and Cactus Overpass; involving local residents in charrettes to incorporate their ideas; public meetings, services, pride of place, and creating community; licensing and Council of Landscape Architectural Registration Boards (CLARB) …………………………………………..……………………….………. 14–36 vii 1 Good afternoon. This is Stefani Evans and Claytee White, [it's August 20, 2016], and we're in the offices of Jack W. Zunino. Mr. Zunino, for the tape would you please pronounce and spell your first and last name, please? My name is Jack Zunino; J-A-C-K; last name Z, as in zebra, U-N, as in Nancy, I-N-O; Jack Zunino. Thank you. Why don't we start by talking about your early life? You said you were born and raised in Elko. Perhaps you can tell us why your parents came to Nevada, or when your family came to Nevada, why they came, and why Elko? On my father's side, the Zunino family came over from Italy back in the late 1800s. My grandpa and grandma lived in Italy about twenty miles apart in the Piompaludo Province of Savona near Genoa, Italy. They came to the USA and met in Nevada, both full-blooded Italians. I think they were the only two people in town that spoke Italian. So they hitched up and got married and had thirteen children. My grandfather was a gold and silver miner, and so he went out West with the Gold Rush and did fairly well. They actually also ran a convenience store, a grocery store, kind of a feed store and a bar. This is pre-Prohibition. My grandma actually made bathtub gin, she told me, in a bathtub. So they were out here. So my grandparents had the children in several different places. They were in Manhattan, [Nevada,] for a long time and then moved up to . . . Elko is the last place they stayed. They built their house—a big house, probably about six thousand square feet on the main floor and then a full basement. The walls were made out of railroad ties and then sheetrocked and painted. So it had great insulation. But I saw a picture of their house when they had it built, and it was like this big estate sitting out in the middle of nowhere. It was a very poor black-and-white picture, 2 [typical] of those days. There were no houses around them. Well, if you go out there now, it's right on a corner, right in the middle of town. So I am sure they had to have it surveyed to the proper location on the parcel that my grandpa bought. So they retired there after World War II. My dad worked in Elko. My mom is part French, part English, and part German. I don't know when her parents came over. My grandparents on my mother's side both passed away before I even knew them. So I don't really know anything about them, to be honest with you. I think my grandpa was in the gambling business, but I'm not sure. But they passed away before I even recall. So my dad and mom met in Elko and that's where I grew up; I went through high school there. I was high school student body president. I liked Elko, but I also couldn't wait to leave Elko, because it was such a small town and I got tired of the—I don't know, not to be too cruel on the recorder—the pettiness of the small town. So I'll just ramble on. Keep going. So I was there through high school. Applied at a couple of colleges and decided to go to the University of Utah in architecture. So I moved out there in, I guess, about 1968, and then stayed in Salt Lake. I'd go back to Elko and work construction. During the summers my dad would get me on with a labor union. So that's how I paid for my college. I'd work three months of highway construction and it paid for my college. I made enough money. I made great money. I was working long hours and it wasn't easy work, but that way I was able to not have to work during the school year. Stayed in Salt Lake. Got a degree in psychology because I didn't do well in the architecture program and liked psychology. So I stayed in psychology, got a degree in psychology, liked psychology. Everybody said, "Well, if you're going to do anything in 3 psychology, you've got to go back and get an advanced degree." And I said, "I'm not doing that." I needed a break from school. So I started working construction again in Salt Lake for a few years and saved up some money and went back to graduate school. I actually worked as a waiter and a bartender at a country club; then I got a job at Safeway and then got a job doing asphalt construction, which is what I did before—it is just a miserable, stinky job, but it was good money. So I saved up some money, because in the back of my mind I said, "I can't stay here and be a bartender and a waiter at a country club for the rest of my life." The hours are so goofy. You go in and do the breakfast and then you go home in the middle of the day and then you have to go back at night. So your whole day is just shot. You work all weekend, and you don't get paid very much. At the country club we weren't even allowed to get tips because it was a country club. They didn't want the members competing for the waiters and the waitresses. After the country club and Safeway I got a higher-paying job doing asphalt construction. So saved up some money and then decided to go back to graduate school in Logan in landscape architecture. At Utah State? Utah State, yes. So I went back. Quit my job. Worked with some good guys. I didn't want to say this: my boss had a sixth-grade education and I had a degree in psychology. I knew that I wasn't going to ever get his job because he was really good at doing asphalt and that wasn't what I wanted to do, anyway. So I went back to graduate school for three years and got a master's degree in landscape architecture. Started working my last year at a local office—well, it was actually not a local place—in Salt Lake. Got married. So my last semester I commuted from Salt Lake to Logan. So I went to classes Monday, Wednesday, and Friday [in Logan], and I worked Tuesday and Thursday in Salt Lake. Then after I graduated I just rolled into that job and worked 4 there until 1983. The economy in Salt Lake was not very good. The company I worked for was laying off people. They had engineering and landscape architecture, and they were laying off engineers; it didn't look real good, and we weren't real busy. CLAYTEE: What was that company? Pardon me? Which company was it? It was called the Land Group in Salt Lake City. They don't exist anymore. See, when I left they just went...Went to heck, right? Of course. So I moved down here. This is back in the days, if you remember, of word processing. Nobody had word processing. You had to go to somebody because you couldn't afford it. So I went to my word processing person and said, "I need you to change my resume." I had landscape architecture, slash, land planner. So I had her change it. Everything stayed the same except I had her put land planner, slash, landscape architect. I applied for a job down here at a large engineering company as a land planner. What is that? A land planner...A lot of different things a land planner could be, but generally what I did is I worked on laying out the entire road system and the villages and everything of—we called it at the time HughesSite, which is Summerlin, twenty-five thousand acres. It was called HughesSite back then. I worked with a group of people. We were upstairs at G.C. Wallace Engineering. We had to sign like a fifty-page nondisclosure agreement because what we were working on was very privileged and we couldn't talk about it. An example is when we started looking at 5 different ways to run Summerlin Parkway, from Rainbow and—whatever that cross street would be, probably like Alta, in that area—where that interchange is now where Summerlin Parkway goes out? Well, it doesn't go straight all the way. It kind of wiggles. There were all kinds of people that knew we were going to be doing a road, and so they were buying one-acre parcels trying to pick where Summerlin Parkway was going to be. So it was very privileged information on where we were laying out the roads, because we would lay them out based on the topography, on the cost of doing construction, and all different things. So there's better ways to run the road, and so we didn't want to have to manipulate it around people that were targeting where to buy properties. It was kind of interesting. So I did that for two and a half years. So was that with Summa? We worked for the Summa Corporation, Howard Hughes Corporation, yes, at the time, yes. But it was G.C. Wallace. I was with the engineering company called G.C. Wallace. They're still in town, big company up on Rainbow [Boulevard]. That's interesting, too, because when I came down here to work for them in '83, they were up on Rainbow, and Rainbow was the last street on the West. It was like desert. Everything ended at Rainbow. You either brought your lunch or you had to drive to lunch. There were no places to walk to lunch when I worked at G.C. Wallace, for the first year anyway; then it started filling up there. Rainbow was a two-lane road. I mean that was a long time ago. But then I got an offer to be a partner at an architecture firm in town. So I moved over and became the director of landscape architecture at a company called JMA. They're still around a little bit. I don't know how successful they are now. But I was there for another two and a half years. [Ed. Note: For more on JMA, also see the oral histories of Tho–mas Schoeman and Robert 6 A. Fielden.] So from '85-ish? Eighty-five and a half to '89. It's about three years, '85 to '89, three years each company, probably. So '89...We were doing a lot of work at JMA and we were busy. But one of the philosophies of the partners—and I was one of the partners—was to get us all out there, all of the partners. There were five of us at the time. We would go to events and we'd get our faces out there and we would talk to people, market, and get to know people. The philosophy was trying to develop relationships, which is still in my opinion where it's at. In doing that I would meet a lot of people and they were looking for landscape architects. They said, "Well, we'd like to use you, but you're our competition. You've got engineering. You've got architecture. We'd love to use you for landscape architecture, but we're defeating our own company's purpose." So that's when I decided that I'd start my own company. So I thought that I would quit JMA and get JMA's work, but they didn't like the fact that I had left them high and dry. So they tried to build up the landscape architecture department again and eventually didn't and got rid of it. So I started doing work for all the major architects and engineers in town except for JMA because they were mad at me. So who were the partners that were mad at you? Just a couple of the partners. I shouldn't have asked the question that way. So who were your other partners at JMA? A couple of them who were not the ones who were necessarily mad at me, but they were the ones that stayed...The one that stayed and ended up selling the company to another company was Tom Schoeman, who I respect; Glen Ashworth; Rodney Wiedenkeller; Ed Vance; Steve Carr, and Tom Turner. That's it. That's all the partners when I was there. Well, when I got hired I got hired 7 by Tom Turner. So you went out on your own in '89? Eighty-nine. There were three of us. We worked out of my house. I was single at the time. I had a three- or four-bedroom house, a little Lewis Home that we worked out of. We had our guard cat—Panther, the black cat, used to watch over us. The funny thing is—I know this is just interesting to me—this is back in the days when we did a lot of drawings on Mylar, which is a plastic-paper kind of thing. Paper is paper, but Mylar is plastic, and you do Rapidographs, ink drawings, on it. Panther liked one of my guys, and Panther would sit at the top of his drafting table. But every now and then, Panther's tail would come down across the drawing. And every now and then I would see a drawing that Stan— With a swoop? It would have real hairline ink traces of Panther's tail going across the drawing. It was just kind of the signature that we had. It didn't ruin the drawing or anything, but you could just ever so lightly see Panther's tail going across. So we had a good time. We used my kitchen table as the conference room. Didn't have a photocopy machine. What was the address of this place? It was just north of [U.S. Route] 95. It was in Las Vegas. Gosh, I can't think of the street even. It was near Jones [Boulevard] and Washington [Avenue]. I bought that house when I was at G.C. Wallace. So that was probably about in 1985 or something. So then we started building up and building up and moved to a [Johnny A. Ribeiro Jr.] complex on Spring Mountain [Road] and I-15 for a few years and then decided that we'd try and get our own place. So we bought this building [at 3191 S. Jones Boulevard] from a Realtor. He was ready to get out of it. It was just he and his wife. He had a son that lived in the casita back in the back that we turned into what we 8 call the War Room. It had a wall in the middle and it had a bedroom and a living room and a kitchenette. So we took out the middle wall and made it into just this big room. We call it the War Room because we have charrettes and meetings back there. So it's cool. But the Realtor sold us this residential building and we converted it. The garage is right there. We have four or five studios in the garage area. And the bedrooms, we took out the walls and just made a big studio in the back. Then my office is the master bedroom. And the master bath we turned into a male and female toilet room. I guess these were two bedrooms up here, too. We've been here ever since. It had a full-blown Jacuzzi and swimming pool in the backyard. My employees kept saying, "We need to keep it; we need to keep it." And the insurance company said, "You've got to be crazy; you've got to be crazy." He said, "You're not here at night. People could get in. If someone were to drown in it, heaven forbid." So with the maintenance and everything we filled it in and made it into a desert garden with a patio back there and native trees and native shrubs. It's designed so the patio drains into this dry riverbed that cuts through the back and then that dry riverbed collects all the water and directs it towards the sidewalk on the street over here on Darby, but I think only one time it's ever filled up because it's slow and it's terraced. So all the water collects and the trees around it then absorb the water. So we're keeping all the site water contained and reusing it for irrigation. So it's a nice little demonstration area. That's great. It's a good area to show that it doesn't need a lot of maintenance because we don't give it a lot of maintenance. So tell us about some of the first projects that you had. 9 On your own. The first project I got was a condominium project up at Painted Desert. I think the fee was like sixteen or seventeen thousand dollars and that was really seed money to keep me going. I took a big cut in pay, being a partner at a large architecture firm. But that was seed money to keep us going for a while. All three of us worked on that. Actually, my two guys worked on that and I worked on learning how to do payroll and learning how to keep books and learning how to do crazy stuff like that. Because even being a partner, I helped manage the business, but you don't do payroll. I mean, you have people that do payroll for you. So I had to learn payroll. But one of the smartest—I keep saying it's one of the smartest things I did; it was a smart thing—is I had heard about this program that the SBA [Small Business Association] people have at UNLV [now the Nevada Small Business Development Center at UNLV]. I checked into it and they said, "Yes, are you a brand-new business?" I said, "Yes, it's the three of us and we work out of my house." They said, "Well, you need to apply." I applied and I got, free of charge, an attorney who specialized in business and accounting to come to my house for like four weeks twice a week for free and he taught me how to do payroll. He taught me how to do books. He taught me the nuts and bolts of running a business. I think he would come by—they said he'd come by for an hour twice a week for four weeks, but he was there for two hours. He'd come by after his workday because he was donating his time. So he'd come around after work hours and we'd end up bullshitting and he'd stick around and we'd have snacks and a drink or something. It turned out that we became friends. He left town right after that. But it was really one of the smartest things I did. I took advantage of that SBA thing and it helped a lot as far as how I handled the books and finances. Because when you're in school, especially graduate school, you don't think about starting your own business; you think about 10 getting through school and learning your profession. Then all of a sudden, you're thrown into a situation and you go, oh my gosh, I’ve got to run a business now and I didn't really think about it that much, about all the things that are different. I wasn't able to hire a bookkeeper, hire someone to do payroll because three people is all we had. So it was really a good thing. And who were your business partners at the time? There was Stan Johnson, who was in school at UNLV in the architecture program, and Dan Hill, who was a landscape architect I hired from...He was working in Arizona. He came up here. He has since started his own business here in town. We were together for about twenty years, I think. We separated probably ten, fifteen years ago. And Stan Johnson? No clue where he is. I know he got licensed because I signed a work form to show that he worked here. He's gotten licensed and I can't even remember where. But I had lost contact with him. Stan actually was a good friend of mine. I'd say he still is, but I haven't seen him in so long. But he actually got married in my backyard when he was working with me. We just set up the backyard and he got married back there. So it was pretty cool. So what kinds of jobs—like right now, what are on your boards as far as the kinds of jobs you have? We're doing a park for the City of the Las Vegas. It's a four-and-a-half-million-dollar park. It's on Washington and Las Vegas Wash. It's going to have a soccer field and basketball, kind of a traditional park, exercise area, splash pad, tot lot; those kinds of things. So where is it? Washington and Las Vegas Wash. Washington runs east and west and then it's right next to the wash that runs right next to U.S. 95 that cuts through there. 11 Yes. It's a big, open field. We actually are meeting on it Thursday to kick off on that. We're also working on six gateways for NDOT [Nevada Department of Transportation], which is really a cool project. There are no real gateways or monument signs leading you into Nevada. So we're going to be doing one each at Jackpot, Hoover Dam, Crystal Bay, Topaz Lake, Stateline, and Bordertown. Didn't know there was a Bordertown, did you? No. It goes Bordertown, Crystal Bay, Stateline, and then Topaz just down the west border and then Hoover Dam is over here and then Jackpot is between Wells and Idaho. So we're doing six unique signs. I'm not sure what the three signs—six signs are, but they're going to be, I believe—and you never know until they're built—they're going to be similar, but they're each going to be different. When I say that I mean we’re going to have some similarities in the design aesthetic, but the materials are going to be more specific to each area and more specific to what's up in that area. For example, we're thinking about doing medallions on it that have different animals. So if we did one for Hoover Dam, we would do the mountain sheep, the big ram with the horns. Then if we did one for Jackpot, we would probably do like a mule deer or something like that on it. Then when we get up to Bordertown, the state bird [mountain bluebird (Sialia currucoides)] would be one. Then we could use an indigenous plant on another one. So it would be basically the same medallion, but something different on it that's more representative of that area. Plus we want to bring in—we're thinking that to give it some girth and make it landed on the property to use native stones, whatever those might be. So out in Hoover Dam, there would be those rounded stones that they use. Or we would use those stone walls that they used at the dam. I don't know if you've noticed them. They're stone walls and they've got exaggerated grout; the grout's been 12 actually pushed out and detailed. So we might use that. But something unique. So that's a cool project that we're working on. We're working on a commercial building up in Summerlin up by the Summerlin Town Center or whatever that's called, City Center, Summerlin City Center. A couple of other things we're doing, a project for Ethel M, a master plan out there. Oh, we're working on a couple of custom residentials: one's up at Spanish Trail, one's up by Lone Mountain. We just finished the last phase of Lone Mountain, which is that rendering on the wall. We just finished this. That just opened up a couple of months ago; it's an equestrian center. So it's got a big covered arena. It's got two round pens. It's got a children's play area. Is that Tule Springs? No. This is U.S. 95—well, it's kind of 95. It's in this area right up here. This is Lone Mountain and north is up and the [Clark County] 215 Beltway comes around like this around the mountain. Are you with me? Lone Mountain is up this way. Okay, okay. That park is right in here; that you see that one is. This one is over here, right here. And then this one was completed. I don't have a picture of that. That was completed about a year ago. So these are all parks that are surrounding Lone Mountain right now. I have to go to that area. I can't even picture where this is. You can see Lone Mountain in the background in that picture. That's a simulation. We did this master concept about fifteen years ago, I bet, and we've been doing a little bit every year. Well, this was done thirteen years ago, 2003, this master plan. We're pretty much staying in tune with...That's going to be an equestrian center on the other side. This is going to be a big park area. This is an existing. That one we did before. That's the equestrian area. Then this is more of 13 a corporate area with golf Frisbee and an amphitheater and more of a town square kind of atmosphere. So there would be retail and a gathering space up there. So I think we estimated it would be about two hundred million dollars to finish it. I don't know; that seems like a lot. I don't know what we figured it would be. But it's got eleven phases and we've done four now. So it's got a lot of phases left to do. These phases have been in the range of ten million. Each one? Each one. So it couldn't be two hundred million. It would be maybe half a billion to build it out; something like that. Because we're already at fifty million and we're only on phase four. This is the city? County. So when are you looking to complete that project? When would the final build-out be, do you think? Probably not in my lifetime, seriously. Really? Yes. Well, the master plan was done in 2003 and they've done four phases in thirteen years, so every three years. So about thirty more years if you multiply it out. Eight times three is twenty-four. So twenty-four more years. So I'll probably see the final phase. It's hard to think about that really. I get antsy. I want to build it all right now and you have to say, "Oh, we'll just see what happens." Then every couple of years they call us and say, "Let's do this phase or that phase." So did you ever see Las Vegas going from where it was when you came here to putting that much money into a park? No. 14 That far out. Absolutely not, yes. It wasn't appreciated at all. Landscape architecture was . . . It was a second-class profession, it was a profession that people thought was frivolous and unneeded. When you see the land planning that we've done, and the environmental conservation that we've done, and the water savings . . . You could fly over Las Vegas and see the impact of what we've done and what other landscape architects have done. We've changed the look of Las Vegas, big time. But it used to be that landscape architects weren't hired to do parks; they would hire architects because they didn't think that we could do it. It's interesting, too, because we would then get hired by the architect and do seventy-five or eighty percent of the work. It's like, I don't get why this is. So we started educating people at different levels; one level was at the state level we got a Bluebook published. The Bluebook was published fifteen years ago and it was a joint effort amongst the engineers, the architects and the landscape architects, interior designers and—did I say the engineers? Yes. It was basically we sat down and said, "The engineers are doing architecture; the architects are doing landscape architecture; there's a landscape architect trying to do architecture. Is that really appropriate?" So we shared the testing that we took, the schooling that we took. The engineers were really opposed to us doing any grading plans, grading manipulation of the contours in the soil and the drainage. They saw the testing and the education that we had and they said, "Well, I don't have any problem with that." So now, fifteen years ago it was dictated by the state [that] we're allowed to do grading plans and structural walls because we have structural background. Generally I wouldn't mess with—even though I could design it structurally, I wouldn't mess with a wall more than three feet high; I would hire a structural engineer because they do it all the time 15 and it's easier. They can do it faster. But grading plans we do all the time now. Same thing with engineers, engineers have more respect for what we do as far as grading drainage, irrigation. Architects and engineers can still do landscape architecture. As part of the state statute we can do some of the engineering. We can do gazebos. We can do restrooms. We can do anything that people don't live in or work in. And so it was a good effort to get the state more protected, but it was a good effort also, because now we start communicating and everyone became more educated. I became more educated in what the engineers and architects do and they, more so, were educated in what we do as landscape architects. But I sat on that committee for probably a couple of years before we got the Bluebook published. But it made a big difference in the st